"Official" Audyssey thread (FAQ in post #51779) - Page 2392 - AVS Forum
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post #71731 of 71758 Old 07-09-2014, 01:46 PM
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soundcard output running REW sweep into one of the avr's RCA in's (let's say "CD source") then RCA outs on left or right channel into soundcard input, should give you a sufficient loopback to see what happens with changes AT the AVR level...

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post #71732 of 71758 Old 07-09-2014, 01:58 PM
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A loopback might be a little tricky. Essentially you're amplifying the entire noise spectrum internally generated by the amp circuits. If the (pre)amp is set to anything less than unity gain, the signal would quickly fade to 0, while higher gain would amplify the signal to as high a voltage as the circuits could drive. I dunno what the resulting signal would actually look like.

REW might be a reasonable signal generator, since that part could be entirely in the digital domain. The quality of the signal it'd detect would depend on the quality of the audio inputs of the computer you're using. I don't know that I'd trust them not to be generating their own distortions, especially when driven by high frequencies. Any such distortion would generate spurious higher harmonics. It'd be a good place to start, though.

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post #71733 of 71758 Old 07-09-2014, 02:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Selden Ball View Post
A loopback might be a little tricky. Essentially you're amplifying the entire noise spectrum internally generated by the amp circuits. If the (pre)amp is set to anything less than unity gain, the signal would quickly fade to 0, while higher gain would amplify the signal to as high a voltage as the circuits could drive. I dunno what the resulting signal would actually look like.

REW might be a reasonable signal generator, since that part could be entirely in the digital domain. The quality of the signal it'd detect would depend on the quality of the audio inputs of the computer you're using. I don't know that I'd trust them not to be generating their own distortions, especially when driven by high frequencies. Any such distortion would generate spurious higher harmonics. It'd be a good place to start, though.
@Selden and beast

Yet, I still think the bottleneck in the loopback chain here would be the soundcard input itself. Most probably those s/cards are not so famous for their response at ultrasonics (like above 20 kHz).
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post #71734 of 71758 Old 07-09-2014, 02:26 PM
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The best way would be to stay in the digital domain and have access to the final point via menu (with a couple of key strokes on the remote) right before the digital signal enters the DAC and see how the sampling rate in kHz changes with Audyssey on/off, Bass Mangement on/off, etc. Wishful thinking, I know.

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post #71735 of 71758 Old 07-09-2014, 03:11 PM
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Originally Posted by mogorf View Post
@Selden and beast

Yet, I still think the bottleneck in the loopback chain here would be the soundcard input itself. Most probably those s/cards are not so famous for their response at ultrasonics (like above 20 kHz).
Sure, but IIRC, my external soundcard I purchased initially for REW sweeps was pretty good on the loopback to well above 50khz. I don't have those loopback graphs anymore or I would post them, but you are correct, you definitely need a good soundcard and clean signal chain to make it right....

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post #71736 of 71758 Old 07-09-2014, 04:17 PM
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Is it recommended to re-run XT32 calibration after putting in an area rug over a tile floor?
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post #71737 of 71758 Old 07-09-2014, 04:49 PM
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I would say so, yes. A big area rug would almost certainly change the acoustics of the room, reducing reflections bouncing off the floor.

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post #71738 of 71758 Old 07-09-2014, 07:41 PM
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Downsample

I find the whole downsample topic quite interesting. I have had a Denon 1610 for 5 years and have never heard of this.

I was wondering if the Audyssey version would make a difference? Is MultiEQ or MultiEQ XT less likely to cause a downsample versus XT32 because of required resources?

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post #71739 of 71758 Old 07-09-2014, 08:25 PM
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Originally Posted by teddyc23 View Post
I find the whole downsample topic quite interesting. I have had a Denon 1610 for 5 years and have never heard of this.
No one wanted to advertise it but it was eventually revealed and confirmed.

Quote:
I was wondering if the Audyssey version would make a difference? Is MultiEQ or MultiEQ XT less likely to cause a downsample versus XT32 because of required resources?
I do not know because I have little interest in the lesser versions but one should note that (1) they are used in cheaper AVRs which are likely to have even more limited DSP capabilities than the bigger ones and (2) the manufacturers probably adopt the same philosophy for all their products.

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post #71740 of 71758 Old 07-09-2014, 08:43 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mogorf View Post
How about distance settings for the fronts?
Actually the distance settings were spot on but i noticed the sub distance was a good bit longer than it should but according to some previous posts its quite normal so i just Tweaked it to the correct length. In my last post i mentioned that my fronts were 5.0 and 5.5db which was wrong as they are -5.0 and -5.5db and the center = 0.0db. I did turn my surrounds down and i also turned my centre and fronts up a couple of db. It now sounds great and i have Dynamic EQ set to on. By having it on it boosts my center channel when the dialogue is being spoken in a low volume movie scene.

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post #71741 of 71758 Old Yesterday, 07:19 AM
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Originally Posted by grassy View Post
Actually the distance settings were spot on but i noticed the sub distance was a good bit longer than it should but according to some previous posts its quite normal so i just Tweaked it to the correct length. In my last post i mentioned that my fronts were 5.0 and 5.5db which was wrong as they are -5.0 and -5.5db and the center = 0.0db. I did turn my surrounds down and i also turned my centre and fronts up a couple of db. It now sounds great and i have Dynamic EQ set to on. By having it on it boosts my center channel when the dialogue is being spoken in a low volume movie scene.
If by "correct" you mean the actual physical distance to the sub...this is most likely not correct.

Unless you have the ability to measure your room's response, it's best to trust Audyssey on sub distance. If you have a mic and REW (or similar) you can adjust the sub distance in the AVR until you get the smoothest transition through the crossover region, but without measuring gear there's no way to know what distance is "correct".
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post #71742 of 71758 Old Yesterday, 07:47 AM
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Originally Posted by drewTT View Post
Is it recommended to re-run XT32 calibration after putting in an area rug over a tile floor?

I agree with batpig. I was surprised to see that this is not specifically covered in the FAQ, so I will write a new Q&A for when it is advised to re-run Audyssey after making changes in the room.
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post #71743 of 71758 Old Yesterday, 07:49 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by grassy View Post
Actually the distance settings were spot on but i noticed the sub distance was a good bit longer than it should but according to some previous posts its quite normal so i just Tweaked it to the correct length. In my last post i mentioned that my fronts were 5.0 and 5.5db which was wrong as they are -5.0 and -5.5db and the center = 0.0db. I did turn my surrounds down and i also turned my centre and fronts up a couple of db. It now sounds great and i have Dynamic EQ set to on. By having it on it boosts my center channel when the dialogue is being spoken in a low volume movie scene.
Whoa!

Check the FAQ answer:

e)4. Why has Audyssey set my sub distance much greater than it actually measures?
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post #71744 of 71758 Old Yesterday, 08:06 AM
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post #71745 of 71758 Old Yesterday, 11:52 AM
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You da man KB. I am glad you got your link issues figured out. I know some other forum members that aren't as lucky so far.

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post #71746 of 71758 Old Yesterday, 12:17 PM
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You da man KB. I am glad you got your link issues figured out. I know some other forum members that aren't as lucky so far.
Thanks Beast! I ended up remaking all the links manually, using the new vB code. Took a while but it seemed the surest way to get it done.
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post #71747 of 71758 Old Yesterday, 12:18 PM
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Been having some pretty good Audyssey results recently - as clear a sound as I've ever heard (via the Denon X1000). Have kept the mic at least 1.5 feet from sofa and in a rectangular array of measuring positions. Many have noted that Audyssey can produce an overly bright soundfield, and that has been my issue as well. While the sound is crystal clear the highs are just a bit too overbearing - producing a ringing in my ears. I know this can be defeated but I think it will take a few adjustments.

I have had differing results with Audyssey - some results sound overly warm and even a bit dull, while others are very aggressively clear and high. The latter is more ideal, but I want it to have the clarity without the highs being so aggressive.

The success factor in getting clear sound has been measuring in the rectangular array both on and in front of the couch - per that diagram that's been passed around, and using the 8 measuring locations for XT. But it's crucial getting at least 1.5 feet of space between couch and mic. Otherwise I've had muddy sound.

The brightness could be because the mic is a few inches too high (as the L&R tweeters do fire right at my ear); it could be that the L & R speakers face straight out (meaning the treble is being boosted a bit to overcompensate for measurements in the middle area), or it's that the center is a bit higher and is not tilted downwards (I tend to think it sounds a bit better like this - but it could be causing a more "live" sound with the room). Or it's a combination.

If anyone has had success with setup procedure -- in getting clear sound w/ Audyssey that isn't treble-heavy -- please share.

Thank you

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post #71748 of 71758 Old Yesterday, 12:26 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Napoleon D View Post
Been having some pretty good Audyssey results recently - as clear a sound as I've ever heard (via the Denon X1000). Have kept the mic at least 1.5 feet from sofa and in a rectangular array of measuring positions. Many have noted that Audyssey can produce an overly bright soundfield, and that has been my issue as well. While the sound is crystal clear the highs are just a bit too overbearing - producing a ringing in my ears. I know this can be defeated but I think it will take a few adjustments.

I have had differing results with Audyssey - some results sound overly warm and even a bit dull, while others are very aggressively clear and high. The latter is more ideal, but I want it to have the clarity without the highs being so aggressive.

The success factor in getting clear sound has been measuring in the rectangular array both on and in front of the couch - per that diagram that's been passed around, and using the 8 measuring locations for XT. But it's crucial getting at least 1.5 feet of space between couch and mic. Otherwise I've had muddy sound.

The brightness could be because the mic is a few inches too high (as the L&R tweeters do fire right at my ear); it could be that the L & R speakers face straight out (meaning the treble is being boosted a bit to overcompensate for measurements in the middle area), or it's that the center is a bit higher and is not tilted downwards (I tend to think it sounds a bit better like this - but it could be causing a more "live" sound with the room). Or it's a combination.

If anyone has had success with setup procedure -- in getting clear sound w/ Audyssey that isn't treble-heavy -- please share.

Thank you
Try this, from the FAQ:

a)9. Why are my high frequencies 'bright' or 'harsh' since running Audyssey?
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post #71749 of 71758 Old Yesterday, 01:23 PM
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When setting up the mic to run Audyssey, I'm not really sure of the best way to run in my setup. I have the boom stand linked in the FAQ (http://www.amazon.com/Stage-Stands-M...5023578&sr=1-1), but my loveseat is too close to the wall to sit the boom stand behind it (the tripod base is too wide). Unfortunately in my apartment, I am severely limited on placement, as moving up the loveseat would interfere with the couch. What I did was have the boom reaching over from one corner and both sides of the loveseat. I know its not optimal, as there could be (and probably is) some reflection off the boom stand, but the only other thing that I can think of would be to temporarily move the loveseat forward to run Audyssey and then move it back. Of course, this is changing the room layout, and could affect the correction filters. While neither of the these are ideal, I'm not really sure what else do. Which of these compromises would I better off with?
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post #71750 of 71758 Old Yesterday, 01:34 PM
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Audyssey always calibrates my system (all Klipsch front stage) a bit on the bright side as well, but I've found that if I engage Cinema re-EQ that pretty much takes care of it.
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post #71751 of 71758 Old Yesterday, 01:36 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vacation View Post
When setting up the mic to run Audyssey, I'm not really sure of the best way to run in my setup. I have the boom stand linked in the FAQ (http://www.amazon.com/Stage-Stands-M...5023578&sr=1-1), but my loveseat is too close to the wall to sit the boom stand behind it (the tripod base is too wide). Unfortunately in my apartment, I am severely limited on placement, as moving up the loveseat would interfere with the couch. What I did was have the boom reaching over from one corner and both sides of the loveseat. I know its not optimal, as there could be (and probably is) some reflection off the boom stand, but the only other thing that I can think of would be to temporarily move the loveseat forward to run Audyssey and then move it back. Of course, this is changing the room layout, and could affect the correction filters. While neither of the these are ideal, I'm not really sure what else do. Which of these compromises would I better off with?
My boom stand sits in front of my MLP when I calibrate...I've never had an issue with it. I don't think the stand has enough mass to cause any anomalies, but I could be wrong.
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post #71752 of 71758 Old Yesterday, 01:40 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vacation View Post
When setting up the mic to run Audyssey, I'm not really sure of the best way to run in my setup. I have the boom stand linked in the FAQ (http://www.amazon.com/Stage-Stands-M...5023578&sr=1-1), but my loveseat is too close to the wall to sit the boom stand behind it (the tripod base is too wide). Unfortunately in my apartment, I am severely limited on placement, as moving up the loveseat would interfere with the couch. What I did was have the boom reaching over from one corner and both sides of the loveseat. I know its not optimal, as there could be (and probably is) some reflection off the boom stand, but the only other thing that I can think of would be to temporarily move the loveseat forward to run Audyssey and then move it back. Of course, this is changing the room layout, and could affect the correction filters. While neither of the these are ideal, I'm not really sure what else do. Which of these compromises would I better off with?
Leave the seat where it is and use the mic as described above (bolded). Don't worry about reflections off the boom/stand. Moving the seat would have way more detrimental impact.
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post #71753 of 71758 Old Yesterday, 01:50 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alan P View Post
My boom stand sits in front of my MLP when I calibrate...I've never had an issue with it. I don't think the stand has enough mass to cause any anomalies, but I could be wrong.
Quote:
Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post
Leave the seat where it is and use the mic as described above (bolded). Don't worry about reflections off the boom/stand. Moving the seat would have way more detrimental impact.
Thanks for the quick replies. I wasn't sure for some of the measurements if the stand being slightly in front of the love seat would be detrimental, but I suppose I was just over-complicating things.
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post #71754 of 71758 Old Today, 03:20 AM
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Originally Posted by Vacation View Post
Thanks for the quick replies. I wasn't sure for some of the measurements if the stand being slightly in front of the love seat would be detrimental, but I suppose I was just over-complicating things.
It is easy to overthink these things. And sometimes there has to be a compromise. If that compromise is between a) moving the seat for the cal and then moving it back for listening, or b) placing the boom stand in front of the seat, then b) is always the best way to go. FWIW I have had to calibrate like this for years, due to the fact that like you I cannot get the stand behind the seats. I have never seen it as a major issue and my results - both measured and audible - are excellent.
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post #71755 of 71758 Old Today, 07:04 AM
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Sorry to jump in, I have a quick question...

I recently upgraded from Onkyo 609 (2eq) to 929 (xt32), and I am very pleasantly surprised - almost as if I have a completely different set of speakers.

However, I'm still running into an issue that I had with my old receiver. When watching cable tv/movies, with reference level offset set at 0db, it sounds great for 75% of the time. However, there is the occasional show that seems to have already incorporated some sort of loudness factor in the mix, and dynamic eq completely blows out the sound with very boomy bass and harsh highs. This is easily fixed by properly adjusting the offset to -10 or -15db, but it's buried deep within the Onkyo settings menu, and is somewhat of a pain to keep switching back and forth.

My question is if anyone has found a workaround for this problem or an easy way to change the reference offset. Especially with cable, there is a wide range of movies/tv content where one size does not fit all.

Sorry if this is not the right thread as it is somewhat specific to my onkyo 929, but I figured other people using Audyssey must have run into a similar problem before. Thanks a lot for your help.
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post #71756 of 71758 Old Today, 07:27 AM
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Sorry to jump in, I have a quick question...

I recently upgraded from Onkyo 609 (2eq) to 929 (xt32), and I am very pleasantly surprised - almost as if I have a completely different set of speakers.

However, I'm still running into an issue that I had with my old receiver. When watching cable tv/movies, with reference level offset set at 0db, it sounds great for 75% of the time. However, there is the occasional show that seems to have already incorporated some sort of loudness factor in the mix, and dynamic eq completely blows out the sound with very boomy bass and harsh highs. This is easily fixed by properly adjusting the offset to -10 or -15db, but it's buried deep within the Onkyo settings menu, and is somewhat of a pain to keep switching back and forth.

My question is if anyone has found a workaround for this problem or an easy way to change the reference offset. Especially with cable, there is a wide range of movies/tv content where one size does not fit all.

Sorry if this is not the right thread as it is somewhat specific to my onkyo 929, but I figured other people using Audyssey must have run into a similar problem before. Thanks a lot for your help.
The main problem is that Dynamic EQ was not designed to work with sources other than movies. Movies are mixed to a Reference standard which is 'known' to Dynamic EQ so to speak, but there are no such standards with music or TV. What you are experiencing is what we would expect. There is no workaround that will enable you 'set and forget' RLO for music or TV unfortunately.

This FAQ answer has some background info which you might find useful, but unfortunately it can't offer you a solution as there simply isn’t one. All you can do is either disable DEQ altogether when watching TV (easily done with the Home menu button on Onkyos), or adjust RLO on the fly depending on program content. It isn’t a fault in Audyssey - it's just that TV is not mixed to any known standards.

g)3. What is Reference Level Offset in Dynamic EQ?

Edit: when I say TV is not mixed to any known standards, I mean most general, run of the mill programming. Some TV series, such as those found on HBO, are made much more like movies with original Dolby 5.1 surround tracks etc and you can probably treat these as you would movies. But the rest of TV, forget it...
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post #71757 of 71758 Old Today, 07:32 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post
The main problem is that Dynamic EQ was not designed to work with sources other than movies. Movies are mixed to a Reference standard which is 'known' to Dynamic EQ so to speak, but there are no such standards with music or TV. What you are experiencing is what we would expect. There is no workaround that will enable you 'set and forget' RLO for music or TV unfortunately.

This FAQ answer has some background info which you might find useful, but unfortunately it can't offer you a solution as there simply isn’t one. All you can do is either disable DEQ altogether when watching TV (easily done with the Home menu button on Onkyos), or adjust RLO on the fly depending on program content. It isn’t a fault in Audyssey - it's just that TV is not mixed to any known standards.

g)3. What is Reference Level Offset in Dynamic EQ?

Edit: when I say TV is not mixed to any known standards, I mean most general, run of the mill programming. Some TV series, such as those found on HBO, are made much more like movies with original Dolby 5.1 surround tracks etc and you can probably treat these as you would movies. But the rest of TV, forget it...
thanks, that is pretty much what I had expected. And you're exactly right with TV shows such as those on HBO - I'd hate to compromise a movie quality TV show by just setting it on -10 or -15 and forgetting about it. I think it's more a fault with Onkyo for burying such a useful setting deep in the settings menu. I think they could at least put it in the home menu you referred to (a remote button would be even better). Anyway, thank you for confirming my suspicions.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by batpig View Post
Have you attempted what I suggested to see if you can even hear a difference between 48kHz and 96kHz sample rates, irrespective of Audyssey (which introduces another variable)?
[Sorry for late reply, I am still having trouble navigating the "new" forum using my "old" methods...somehow my page views aren't what I thought and I have bypassed posts.]

Yes, I can easily hear a diff, that is why I use my stereo for them. So that's not the/my question really. Is the diff huge? NO! The 48kHz stuff is fine from a sample-rate perspective. But this is a forum for the nitpickers, almost by definition, those who aren't don't come here or to any other A/V one.

It is the mch audio that I can only use in my mch system which is the question. And I want to use Audyssey. My current pre-pro is not good enough for 96kHz music IMO (I don't like it much at 48 even), even though it can "do" it (and more...IMO there's no point) and thus I was questing for a piece of gear that I assumed would be better overall *if* it did 96kHz Audyssey.

I did not actually expect to get quality music reproduction from my current piece based on previous experience with its ilk, even before I got it, that's not what I got it for. I am looking for that next piece, and was wondering about my options. Obviously if I want to use 96kHz mch sources and keep them there, Audyssey is not an option. Question answered! For now anyway. XT32 does more good than "harm" IMO, so 48kHz is it.

mogorf is right: as far as I can tell, there's no easy way to tell what the sampling frequency is before the final conversion to analog with my gear. I think that's what the guys were getting at, and it's what I'd like to know, for curiosity if no other reason.
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