"Official" Audyssey thread (FAQ in post #51779) - Page 2393 - AVS Forum
Forum Jump: 
Reply
 
Thread Tools
post #71761 of 71786 Old 07-11-2014, 10:02 AM
Advanced Member
 
Napoleon D's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Posts: 586
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 8 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by Alan P View Post
Audyssey always calibrates my system (all Klipsch front stage) a bit on the bright side as well, but I've found that if I engage Cinema re-EQ that pretty much takes care of it.
I'm of the thought that the features like THX/Re-EQ, Cinema Filter, or any of the other sound-enhancing features are artificial fixes for issues that can be corrected naturally with the right set-up. I think Audyssey with Dynamic EQ engaged is designed to ideally work i.e. create the industry-standard cinema sound-curve (correct me if wrong). The challenge is doing the set-up "correctly" so Audyssey can accomplish that, in other words meeting it at least half way to help it work correctly. So by that rationale an ideal setup should not be overly bright. I don't have the Klipsch or the same room as you so in your case Re:EQ could be only solution. Always learning here!
Napoleon D is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #71762 of 71786 Old 07-11-2014, 10:56 AM
AVS Special Member
 
Alan P's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: South Dakota
Posts: 1,677
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 96 Post(s)
Liked: 139
Quote:
Originally Posted by brad713 View Post
that's very interesting, I'm unfamiliar with these discrete codes - do they give you possible access to all settings, as opposed to just copying what's on the onkyo remote?
In theory.

Someone will have had to of found the discrete codes and posted them somewhere (Remote Central is a good resource)....but yeah, you can typically find discrete codes for a lot of functions not available on the factory remotes.

But, you have to have a remote that will accept those codes....I think the Harmony's can do some, but I use a URC MX-800 (that I've been using for 10+ years) that I can pretty much use any hex code with so I'm not sure of others.
Alan P is online now  
post #71763 of 71786 Old 07-11-2014, 10:58 AM
AVS Special Member
 
Alan P's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: South Dakota
Posts: 1,677
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 96 Post(s)
Liked: 139
Quote:
Originally Posted by Napoleon D View Post
I'm of the thought that the features like THX/Re-EQ, Cinema Filter, or any of the other sound-enhancing features are artificial fixes for issues that can be corrected naturally with the right set-up. I think Audyssey with Dynamic EQ engaged is designed to ideally work i.e. create the industry-standard cinema sound-curve (correct me if wrong). The challenge is doing the set-up "correctly" so Audyssey can accomplish that, in other words meeting it at least half way to help it work correctly. So by that rationale an ideal setup should not be overly bright. I don't have the Klipsch or the same room as you so in your case Re:EQ could be only solution. Always learning here!
Dyn EQ is meant to deal with how humans hear at lower volume levels, not to reproduce any "industry-standard".

I've had my Klipsch speakers for over 20 years and have always used Cinema EQ...works for me in my system.
Alan P is online now  
post #71764 of 71786 Old 07-11-2014, 11:03 AM
Senior Member
 
mthomas47's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Posts: 247
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 12 Post(s)
Liked: 26
Quote:
Originally Posted by Napoleon D View Post
I'm of the thought that the features like THX/Re-EQ, Cinema Filter, or any of the other sound-enhancing features are artificial fixes for issues that can be corrected naturally with the right set-up. I think Audyssey with Dynamic EQ engaged is designed to ideally work i.e. create the industry-standard cinema sound-curve (correct me if wrong). The challenge is doing the set-up "correctly" so Audyssey can accomplish that, in other words meeting it at least half way to help it work correctly. So by that rationale an ideal setup should not be overly bright. I don't have the Klipsch or the same room as you so in your case Re:EQ could be only solution. Always learning here!
It's hard to know how much your room might be a factor in the equation and whether some discrete acoustic treatments might help. But you mentioned microphone height and that has definitely been a factor in my case. Our ears are actually a little lower than we think they are--at least 5.5" down from the top of my head to the middle of my ear canal in my case. And until recently I was pretty consistently using microphone positions that were a little too high. I have found that making very sure that the mic. positions are a little lower--just 2-3" lower gets them to the middle or bottom of my ear canal--has helped to reduce the perceived brightness in my room.

It's all so speaker/room dependent that mic. height might be a minor factor in some calibrations, but it seems to help in mine. Of course there can be trade-offs with respect to a clear line of sight to your surrounds or rear surrounds; fortunately not a factor in my case. But if it were a factor, and I had to choose, I would probably optimize the sound for my center and fronts, and accept some degree of compromise for my surrounds. I would naturally have to experiment to determine how much compromise I was willing to live with. But the FAQ suggestions, the center speaker angle, and the mic. height at least give you a methodology for experimenting to hear what works best for you.

Last edited by mthomas47; 07-11-2014 at 12:57 PM. Reason: I wrote the distance from the top of my head to the ear canal wrong. See, I told you it was farther than I thought.
mthomas47 is offline  
post #71765 of 71786 Old 07-11-2014, 04:21 PM
Senior Member
 
garygarrison's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2013
Posts: 204
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 12 Post(s)
Liked: 52
Quote:
Originally Posted by Alan P View Post
Dyn EQ is meant to deal with how humans hear at lower volume levels, not to reproduce any "industry-standard".

I've had my Klipsch speakers for over 20 years and have always used Cinema EQ...works for me in my system.
I also have Klipsch speakers, which are fairly bright to begin with (but good, and with great dynamic capability and very clean, precise sounding transient response). With modern movies on Blu-ray, they sound very good with Audyssey Flat, and even better with Audyssey Reference (i.e., with Audyssey's midrange correction and moderate high frequency roll off). I almost never use DEQ, and almost always run movies about 3 to 5 dB below Audyssey determined Reference Level. The movies sound very dynamic and exciting, with strong, sometimes overwhelming, bass.

Now with older movies of the magnetic Hi Fi Stereo era (certain, but not all, movies after 1953, especially 70 mm movies) it's a different story. IMO, the people who transfer these to Blu-ray often do not use anything near the bass EQ the studios used to use in preparing release prints. During the original recording sessions, great care was taken not to over-record, so some bass roll off was often used both in the boards, and at the microphone roll off switches. When the final mix was made, when it was less expensive to try over and over again to get it just right (since musicians and sound effects guys were not sitting there being paid during the mix down), the bass was restored, sometimes boosted even more, and the dynamics fine tuned. Even though theater systems typically started to roll off below 40 Hz, some very dramatic bass (about 40 to 200 Hz) found its way to the theater audiences, if they were lucky enough to be hearing a magnetic soundtrack. When Blu-rays are made from these old soundtracks they understandably try to go back to the original, first generation, magnetic sound elements -- which have rolled off bass -- but I strongly suspect they fail to put the bass back, perhaps because they are too young to know what these films sounded like in the theaters. The latter may sound far-fetched, but the BD supervisors are the guys who allowed the resolution of the faces in Patton to be softened, and had to do a new transfer when the complaints came in. If they can do that to the image, there's no telling what they might do to the sound. So, for films of that era, I turn up the bass, when I can. DEQ doesn't seem to solve the problem for me, so I use other means. The sub is easy to turn up, but that stops helping somewhere above 80 Hz. My pre-pro tone controls (not virtual sliders) allow me to turn up the bass by about 6 dB. Since Audyssey actually cuts the bass down a little in my room, with my speakers, with these magnetic era movies only, I sometimes turn Audyssey off.

Last edited by garygarrison; 07-11-2014 at 04:27 PM.
garygarrison is offline  
post #71766 of 71786 Old 07-11-2014, 04:35 PM
Senior Member
 
grassy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Australia
Posts: 284
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 32 Post(s)
Liked: 18
Smile

Quote:
Originally Posted by Alan P View Post
If by "correct" you mean the actual physical distance to the sub...this is most likely not correct.

Unless you have the ability to measure your room's response, it's best to trust Audyssey on sub distance. If you have a mic and REW (or similar) you can adjust the sub distance in the AVR until you get the smoothest transition through the crossover region, but without measuring gear there's no way to know what distance is "correct".
Ok thanks Alan, yes i mean phisical distance. but how does that work as i noticed that my speaker distances were at the correct distances but my sub was set at a greater distance although the sub is about 2 feet away from my speaker but the distance was far greater. Why does Audyssey do this?

Fame is a mask that eats into the face.

grassy is offline  
post #71767 of 71786 Old 07-11-2014, 04:44 PM
AVS Addicted Member
 
batpig's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: San Diego
Posts: 23,719
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 93 Post(s)
Liked: 894
You were provided with a link that explains why two posts after Alan's....
kbarnes701 likes this.

batpig's "Denon-to-English Dictionary"
Setup Guide and FAQ
http://batpigworld.com/

Become a fan "batpigworld.com" on Facebook!
batpig is offline  
post #71768 of 71786 Old 07-11-2014, 04:56 PM
Member
 
ph3ng's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Posts: 77
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Hi gentlemen/ladies,

I've been reading up on as many posts as I can over the last few days. And whilst I love all things tech, HT, sounds etc, I will be the first to admit that some of the things that I've read have gone way above my head.
And I need help translating and dumbing down of some things. So please bear with me if these questions have already been asked.

My current setup consists of the following: Anthony Gallos 3.5 Refs, Strada center, 2 x Adiva TI, Anthem MCA 30, Anthony Gallos SA Amp and recently a current(2013) Denon AVR.

When running the Audyssey calibration, I was asked to turn up the woofers so that it hits 75db. In order for me to do that, I had to up the gain and the boost on the SA Amp to pretty much maximum. Even then I've only been able to hit around 72-74db on one woofer.
The other woofer does occasionally go 75-77db.

Is what I am doing correct?

I also noticed that in the crossover section, my font speakers crossover at 110 and my center 150.
Looking at my speaker manuals, it's asked me to set it at a different level - not higher than 100 Hz. Which one right?

Thank you in advance for taking the time to help me out here.
ph3ng is offline  
post #71769 of 71786 Old 07-11-2014, 06:54 PM
Senior Member
 
garygarrison's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2013
Posts: 204
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 12 Post(s)
Liked: 52
Quote:
Originally Posted by ph3ng View Post
Hi gentlemen/ladies,

I've been reading up on as many posts as I can over the last few days. And whilst I love all things tech, HT, sounds etc, I will be the first to admit that some of the things that I've read have gone way above my head.
And I need help translating and dumbing down of some things. So please bear with me if these questions have already been asked.

My current setup consists of the following: Anthony Gallos 3.5 Refs, Strada center, 2 x Adiva TI, Anthem MCA 30, Anthony Gallos SA Amp and recently a current(2013) Denon AVR.

When running the Audyssey calibration, I was asked to turn up the woofers so that it hits 75db. In order for me to do that, I had to up the gain and the boost on the SA Amp to pretty much maximum. Even then I've only been able to hit around 72-74db on one woofer.
The other woofer does occasionally go 75-77db.

Is what I am doing correct?

I also noticed that in the crossover section, my font speakers crossover at 110 and my center 150.
Looking at my speaker manuals, it's asked me to set it at a different level - not higher than 100 Hz. Which one right?

Thank you in advance for taking the time to help me out here.
Something is wrong. Someone who knows more than I do will help. You should be able to get the 75 dB easily. Which one of the components you list is a subwoofer? Also, both 110 Hz and 150 Hz sound very high to me, for high end speakers, although in some rooms ...
ph3ng likes this.

Last edited by garygarrison; 07-11-2014 at 07:12 PM.
garygarrison is offline  
post #71770 of 71786 Old 07-11-2014, 07:16 PM
Member
 
ph3ng's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Posts: 77
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by garygarrison View Post
Something is wrong. Someone who knows more than I do will help. You should be able to get the 75 dB easily. Also, both 110 Hz and 150 Hz sound very high to me, for high end speakers, although in some rooms ...
Hei Gary. Thanks heaps. I just wasn't sure and that's why I thought I'd ask. But like you said, it could be because of my room. Will see what the others here say.

Quote:
Originally Posted by garygarrison View Post
Which one of the components you list is a subwoofer?
The reference 3.5s have their own woofer each. I've included an image link of the speaker below

http://www.anthonygallo.co.uk/img/im...35-cutout2.jpg



And just to provide more info:



1. That's the rear of the SA Amp. I've got the two RCA cables from the Denon (SW1 & SW2 preouts) connected to the Line In on the Amp
2. I've got my woofers connected to the Subwoofer output on the Amp.

Thanks again for your time. If more information is required of the setup to assist, let me know. Thanks again.
ph3ng is offline  
post #71771 of 71786 Old 07-11-2014, 08:21 PM
Senior Member
 
garygarrison's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2013
Posts: 204
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 12 Post(s)
Liked: 52
I'm assuming there is a separate input on your Anthony Gallos 3.5 Refs that feeds the woofer only, and that is what you have connected to the "sub out" on your amp. At what point do you have the crossover in the preamp (or pre/pro) set?

I'm only familiar with using Audyssey with a totally separate subwoofer that goes up to about 80 Hz, and main speakers that are set to go from about 80 Hz on up.

What configuration of Audyssey do you have? XT? XT32? Or some other? If it is XT or XT32, I think it can be used with a separate sub only. So you need Right Front, Left Front, Center, two surrounds, AND a separate subwoofer. Or do I completely misunderstand what you are doing?
ph3ng likes this.
garygarrison is offline  
post #71772 of 71786 Old 07-11-2014, 08:45 PM
AVS Special Member
 
Alan P's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: South Dakota
Posts: 1,677
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 96 Post(s)
Liked: 139
Those are some....interesting (expensive?) looking speakers.

Having your subwoofer integrated with your mains is a very, very bad idea...always has been and I can't believe there are still manufacturers doing this.

You will be completely unable to get proper sub response because you have only one option when it comes to placement. An unfortunate choice in speakers for sure....is it too late to return them??
kbarnes701 likes this.
Alan P is online now  
post #71773 of 71786 Old 07-11-2014, 09:11 PM
Member
 
ph3ng's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Posts: 77
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by garygarrison View Post
I'm assuming there is a separate input on your Anthony Gallos 3.5 Refs that feeds the woofer only, and that is what you have connected to the "sub out" on your amp.


Gary yes. That is correct.



Quote:
Originally Posted by garygarrison View Post
At what point do you have the crossover in the preamp (or pre/pro) set?

It's currently set to 40Hz on the SA Amp


Quote:
Originally Posted by garygarrison View Post
What configuration of Audyssey do you have? XT? XT32? Or some other? If it is XT or XT32, I think it can be used with a separate sub only. So you need Right Front, Left Front, Center, two surrounds, AND a separate subwoofer. Or do I completely misunderstand what you are doing?


I have Audyssey MultEQ XT32 and Audyssey Sub EQ HT Dual Subwoofer EQ.
If what you are saying about the separate sub is true then I will need to rewire it with a Y cable like I was doing previously.

Bummer :P I thought I kinda had dual subs hehe. Hopefully someone could confirm that for sure. And no you are right on the money in terms of how I've set it up currently.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Alan P View Post
Those are some....interesting (expensive?) looking speakers....
Hei Alan thanks for your input. I would say they are pretty reasonably priced. We were looking a full paradigm setup previously but my wife and I preferred the sounds on these more. The paradigms were far more expensive. Aesthetics played a part too as my good lady didn't want big chunky speakers in the living room.

As for the woofer, I guess one way to look at it is that it's a compromise? The woofers have been performing good enough for us in our current setup.;

Definitely will not be returning them and wouldn't be able to anyway. I've had them for a good 3 years now at least. And I am very happy with them.

Last edited by ph3ng; 07-11-2014 at 09:16 PM.
ph3ng is offline  
post #71774 of 71786 Old Yesterday, 02:59 AM
AVS Special Member
 
Selden Ball's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: upstate NY
Posts: 6,398
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 30 Post(s)
Liked: 317
Another way of looking at it is that they are indeed just woofers. 10" drivers are somewhat small when considering subwoofers, and the specs on their Web site does claim that they're already 3dB down at 35Hz. That's fine for music, but usually is considered inadequate for action movies. When placed in a room, the response is likely to be worse at your primary listening position. Getting a separate subwoofer would be reasonable if you want better low frequency extension.
ph3ng likes this.

Selden
Selden Ball is online now  
post #71775 of 71786 Old Yesterday, 03:26 AM
AVS Addicted Member
 
kbarnes701's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Main Listening Positon
Posts: 16,253
Mentioned: 4 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 318 Post(s)
Liked: 1152
Quote:
Originally Posted by grassy View Post
Ok thanks Alan, yes i mean phisical distance. but how does that work as i noticed that my speaker distances were at the correct distances but my sub was set at a greater distance although the sub is about 2 feet away from my speaker but the distance was far greater. Why does Audyssey do this?
I already answered this.

"Official" Audyssey thread (FAQ in post #51779)
kbarnes701 is online now  
post #71776 of 71786 Old Yesterday, 03:34 AM
AVS Addicted Member
 
kbarnes701's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Main Listening Positon
Posts: 16,253
Mentioned: 4 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 318 Post(s)
Liked: 1152
Quote:
Originally Posted by ph3ng View Post
As for the woofer, I guess one way to look at it is that it's a compromise? The woofers have been performing good enough for us in our current setup.;

Definitely will not be returning them and wouldn't be able to anyway. I've had them for a good 3 years now at least. And I am very happy with them.
Are you able to add a separate subwoofer?

The woofers in your speakers are probably very good but they can't have the deep-down ability of a decent, purpose-designed sub. They won't be able to play as deep and as loud (at the same time) as a purpose-designed sub, and almost certainly can't provide reference level bass for movies (115dB) cleanly and low enough (20Hz or lower at 115dB, say). If you only listen to music, this may not matter, but it does for movies.

Also, as others have touched on, the problem with relying on 'subwoofers' built into mains speakers is one of placement. The main speakers can only be placed in one position, for obvious reasons, and that is in front of the listener. This rigid placement option is rarely the best place for the subwoofer, whose interaction with the room is crucial. The ability to locate the subwoofer in the optimum location with regard to the room's natural modes is one of the great advantages of a separate subwoofer.

If you can add a subwoofer, it will enhance the listening experience greatly, and you can retain your current speakers with no problems at all.
ph3ng likes this.
kbarnes701 is online now  
post #71777 of 71786 Old Yesterday, 04:33 AM
Member
 
ph3ng's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Posts: 77
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by Selden Ball View Post
Another way of looking at it is that they are indeed just woofers. 10" drivers are somewhat small when considering subwoofers, and the specs on their Web site does claim that they're already 3dB down at 35Hz. That's fine for music, but usually is considered inadequate for action movies. When placed in a room, the response is likely to be worse at your primary listening position. Getting a separate subwoofer would be reasonable if you want better low frequency extension.
Hei Selden. Thanks for that. Understand that getting an actual sub will improve the low frequency extension. But I guess what I am trying to confirm is:
1. Have I set things up correctly?
2. Have I used the calibration correctly? i.e. should I be using the dual sub option or not?

If I have done it correctly and that's really all there is to it, then I am happy with it. I am more afraid of wrecking something due to incorrect usage as oppose to getting more if you know what I mean.
ph3ng is offline  
post #71778 of 71786 Old Yesterday, 04:39 AM
Member
 
ph3ng's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Posts: 77
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post
Are you able to add a separate subwoofer?
Hei Kbarnes. Thanks for helping out. I could but very unlikely. Given that this setup is out in the open living room and with two young boys running around and space being a luxury the likelihood is zero.
In terms of speaker purchases this is it for this place. Not to mention I'd need to convince the wife to have a cube sticking out in the living room somewhere

Quote:
Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post
The woofers in your speakers are probably very good but they can't have the deep-down ability of a decent, purpose-designed sub. They won't be able to play as deep and as loud (at the same time) as a purpose-designed sub, and almost certainly can't provide reference level bass for movies (115dB) cleanly and low enough (20Hz or lower at 115dB, say). If you only listen to music, this may not matter, but it does for movies.
Totally agree. But I am satisfied with what I have heard so far. I suppose ignorance is bliss at this stage seeing as I can compare what I am missing out on :P.

At this stage I am trying to confirm if I've understood and am using the setup correctly. I am more afraid that I am wrecking something because of incorrect application.

Thanks again Kbarnes.

Last edited by ph3ng; Yesterday at 04:57 AM.
ph3ng is offline  
post #71779 of 71786 Old Yesterday, 05:13 AM
AVS Addicted Member
 
kbarnes701's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Main Listening Positon
Posts: 16,253
Mentioned: 4 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 318 Post(s)
Liked: 1152
Quote:
Originally Posted by ph3ng View Post
Hei Kbarnes. Thanks for helping out. I could but very unlikely. Given that this setup is out in the open living room and with two young boys running around and space being a luxury the likelihood is zero.
In terms of speaker purchases this is it for this place. Not to mention I'd need to convince the wife to have a cube sticking out in the living room somewhere


Totally agree. But I am alright with what I have heard so far. I suppose ignorance is bliss at this stage seeing as I can compare what I am missing out on :P.

At this stage I am trying to confirm if I've understood and am using the setup correctly. I am more afraid that I am wrecking something because of incorrect application.

Thanks again Kbarnes.
OK, all understood. Your setup is unusual for this thread but I will try to give you my thoughts, based on Audyssey best practice.

AIUI, the subs in your main speakers have their own inputs, which appear to be speaker level inputs. They are fed by a separate amplifier. You are connecting the line level subwoofer outputs of your AVR to the line level subwoofer inputs on the SA amp. You are then connecting the speaker subwoofer inputs to the speaker level outputs on the amp. Do I have this right?

If so, then this isn't all that much different to a regular setup using an external sub. In that setup, the subwoofer outputs of the AVR would go at line level to the inputs on the sub's own plate amp, and from there (internally) to the speaker level connections on the sub drivers themselves.

The normal procedure then is to initially set the SPL to read 75dB in Audyssey, which is accomplished by telling Audyssey to play the test tone while you adjust the gain on the subwoofer amp. So the next question I have for you is, does your SA amp permit you to adjust the gain? If it does, then you need to adjust the gain in one direction or another until Audyssey reads 75dB from the mic. This is where I understand you are hitting the problem you described earlier.

First, please confirm that my setup assumptions above are correct. If they are, and you are connected the way I describe, it is puzzling that you cannot achieve 75dB from the SA amp even with the gain wound all the way up. I am assuming you have the Audyssey mic at the MLP, pointing to the ceiling etc, as described in the FAQ and/or 101 (linked in my sig)?

I can’t see the gain control on the SA amp - I assume it is on the front? Can you provide a bigger image of the back of the SA amp so that I can see the labeling better? Or point me somewhere on the net where I can see this? I just want to satisfy myself on how you are hooked up.

If we can get all these assumptions of mine clarified, then hopefully we can go on to do more investigating. It does seem odd, at first sight, that your SA amp lacks sufficient gain to achieve 75dB, so I am suspecting some form of user error or a faulty amp at this time. Hopefully it is the former.

If everything is setup correctly and you are certain the amp is not faulty, then we can look at the implications of this later. Also, we'll leave the XO issues until we've gone as far as we can with the sub issue.
ph3ng likes this.
kbarnes701 is online now  
post #71780 of 71786 Old Yesterday, 06:03 AM
Member
 
ph3ng's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Posts: 77
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post
First, please confirm that my setup assumptions above are correct.
Hi Kbarnes I really appreciate you doing this and all the others for your inputs so far too. As they say a picture speaks a thousand words. So voila! I present to you my pièce de résistance ahahah :
https://www.dropbox.com/s/fvweytg5q0...onnections.jpg


Hopefully this should help clear up how I've got things connected currently.

When I first ran the Audyssey, I had the mic face up and in the main location.

As for an unusual setup, I will take that as a compliment but yeah it hasn't been easy for me to get feedback when I need help

Edit: I am just going through the manual for the SA Amp again and I noticed this: https://www.dropbox.com/s/m0toy96qjcyj9c4/man1.jpg



Would this be the problem perhaps?

Last edited by ph3ng; Yesterday at 06:22 AM.
ph3ng is offline  
post #71781 of 71786 Old Yesterday, 07:55 AM
AVS Addicted Member
 
batpig's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: San Diego
Posts: 23,719
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 93 Post(s)
Liked: 894
The other thing to think about is that you shouldn't be surprised the speaker crossover is set high when you are taking away their woofers! The 10" woofers are not "part of the speaker" as far as the receiver is concerned, as far as the receiver knows they are a separate subwoofer system so when it tests your FR/FL speakers all it is seeing is the tweeter and mid woofers. So a 110hz crossover seems perfectly reasonable in this circumstance.

Now that doesn't explain the high xover for the center, but I think that's likely an unrelated issue of room acoustics / placement (unless there is something else wacky about your setup we haven't uncovered yet ).

To me the only "problem" I see per se is that you have to turn the gain so high on the amp to get 75db output according to the receiver. Not sure what's going on with that but I might try to eliminate the amp itself as the offending variable.

batpig's "Denon-to-English Dictionary"
Setup Guide and FAQ
http://batpigworld.com/

Become a fan "batpigworld.com" on Facebook!
batpig is offline  
post #71782 of 71786 Old Yesterday, 07:55 AM
AVS Addicted Member
 
batpig's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: San Diego
Posts: 23,719
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 93 Post(s)
Liked: 894
The other thing to think about is that you shouldn't be surprised the speaker crossover is set high when you are taking away their woofers! The 10" woofers are not "part of the speaker" as far as the receiver is concerned, as far as the receiver knows they are a separate subwoofer system so when it tests your FR/FL speakers all it is seeing is the tweeter and mid woofers. So a 110hz crossover seems perfectly reasonable in this circumstance.

Now that doesn't explain the high xover for the center, but I think that's likely an unrelated issue of room acoustics / placement (unless there is something else wacky about your setup we haven't uncovered yet ).

To me the only "problem" I see per se is that you have to turn the gain so high on the amp to get 75db output according to the receiver. Not sure what's going on with that but I might try to eliminate the amp itself as the offending variable.
ph3ng likes this.

batpig's "Denon-to-English Dictionary"
Setup Guide and FAQ
http://batpigworld.com/

Become a fan "batpigworld.com" on Facebook!
batpig is offline  
post #71783 of 71786 Old Yesterday, 10:12 AM
Member
 
jjazdk's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2013
Location: Denmark
Posts: 85
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 12 Post(s)
Liked: 84
Quote:
Originally Posted by ph3ng View Post
Hei Kbarnes. Thanks for helping out. I could but very unlikely. Given that this setup is out in the open living room and with two young boys running around and space being a luxury the likelihood is zero.
In terms of speaker purchases this is it for this place. Not to mention I'd need to convince the wife to have a cube sticking out in the living room somewhere

Totally agree. But I am satisfied with what I have heard so far. I suppose ignorance is bliss at this stage seeing as I can compare what I am missing out on :P.

At this stage I am trying to confirm if I've understood and am using the setup correctly. I am more afraid that I am wrecking something because of incorrect application.
I would not be worried that your woofers cannot handle it. I know the Gallo Reference 3.1 woofer quite well (I worked at the R&D site of the driver manufacturer) and if the 3.5s woofer is equally capable, it will provide plenty of SPL for most people, even for home theater use. Also, remember that you effectively have two subwoofers, which is a LOT better than just one.

Quote:
Originally Posted by batpig View Post
The other thing to think about is that you shouldn't be surprised the speaker crossover is set high when you are taking away their woofers! The 10" woofers are not "part of the speaker" as far as the receiver is concerned, as far as the receiver knows they are a separate subwoofer system so when it tests your FR/FL speakers all it is seeing is the tweeter and mid woofers. So a 110hz crossover seems perfectly reasonable in this circumstance.

Now that doesn't explain the high xover for the center, but I think that's likely an unrelated issue of room acoustics / placement (unless there is something else wacky about your setup we haven't uncovered yet ).

To me the only "problem" I see per se is that you have to turn the gain so high on the amp to get 75db output according to the receiver. Not sure what's going on with that but I might try to eliminate the amp itself as the offending variable.
Agreed.

If I remember correctly, Anthony Gallo used to cross over between the 4" mids and the 10" woofer at app. 200Hz, with a fairly wide overlap (i.e. not very steep slopes). So a 110Hz crossover suggestion from Audyssey would not surprise me at all, and I don't see any issue at all with using 110Hz or even 150Hz crossover, especially since the (sub)woofers are co-located with the front speakers, thus it will not pose any problem with regards to location of the bass. Only issue is that a small part of the stereo information will be removed, since the woofer signal is in mono.

On the gain.. Not so surprising, actually. The specifications on the 3.5s states 88dBSPL/1W/1m sensitivity, those speakers are power hungry and will need plenty of gain with most amps.
ph3ng likes this.

Source: HTPC
Pre: Marantz AV8801 + Pro Kit
PA: April Music Stello S200 (GD1 >130Hz), 2x ICEpower 1000ASP (GD1 <130Hz), 2x ICEpower ASP1000 (Subs), Marantz MM8077 (Rear+Center+Back)
Spkr: GD1 (Front), GDA125 (2xRear+1xBack), GDA Center (Center)
Subs: 4 towers, a total of 28 x 10" 25W ScanSpeak
jjazdk is offline  
post #71784 of 71786 Old Yesterday, 03:19 PM
Senior Member
 
grassy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Australia
Posts: 284
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 32 Post(s)
Liked: 18
Quote:
Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post
Thanks for the link Kbarnes, i missed this post the first time, Thanks again.

Fame is a mask that eats into the face.

grassy is offline  
post #71785 of 71786 Old Yesterday, 05:38 PM
Member
 
ph3ng's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Posts: 77
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by jjazdk View Post
I would not be worried that your woofers cannot handle it. I know the Gallo Reference 3.1 woofer quite well (I worked at the R&D site of the driver manufacturer) and if the 3.5s woofer is equally capable, it will provide plenty of SPL for most people, even for home theater use. Also, remember that you effectively have two subwoofers, which is a LOT better than just one.
Hi jjazdk. Thanks for commenting. Man you really never know who you might bump into on the internet do you? I find it pretty cool that you somehow have some links to my speakers. Thanks for the reassurance.
I am definitely not dying for more bass that's for sure and with your comment there I don't think I need to be .


Quote:
Originally Posted by jjazdk View Post
If I remember correctly, Anthony Gallo used to cross over between the 4" mids and the 10" woofer at app. 200Hz, with a fairly wide overlap (i.e. not very steep slopes). So a 110Hz crossover suggestion from Audyssey would not surprise me at all, and I don't see any issue at all with using 110Hz or even 150Hz crossover, especially since the (sub)woofers are co-located with the front speakers, thus it will not pose any problem with regards to location of the bass. Only issue is that a small part of the stereo information will be removed, since the woofer signal is in mono.

On the gain.. Not so surprising, actually. The specifications on the 3.5s states 88dBSPL/1W/1m sensitivity, those speakers are power hungry and will need plenty of gain with most amps.
So from that I take it that:
1. Everything is a-ok? Just to clarify my front 3 speakers have their own amps. The woofers have the sa-amp and the back 2 are driven by the Denon. With that in mind, you reckon that it's unsurprising that I'd need to pretty much max out the SA Amp?
2. Secondly, I would like to confirm that if I can run Audyssey with a dual sub setup? Or should I revert back to one? This is just based on your input (about me having 2 subs) and another helpful post before saying that perhaps in Audyssey's mind, I've only got one.

Thanks heaps again everyone and batpig too!!
ph3ng is offline  
post #71786 of 71786 Old Yesterday, 10:57 PM
AVS Special Member
 
RapalloAV's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Auckland, New Zealand
Posts: 1,702
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 15 Post(s)
Liked: 30
Quote:
Originally Posted by Napoleon D View Post
Been having some pretty good Audyssey results recently - as clear a sound as I've ever heard (via the Denon X1000). Have kept the mic at least 1.5 feet from sofa and in a rectangular array of measuring positions. Many have noted that Audyssey can produce an overly bright soundfield, and that has been my issue as well. While the sound is crystal clear the highs are just a bit too overbearing - producing a ringing in my ears. I know this can be defeated but I think it will take a few adjustments.

I have had differing results with Audyssey - some results sound overly warm and even a bit dull, while others are very aggressively clear and high. The latter is more ideal, but I want it to have the clarity without the highs being so aggressive.

The success factor in getting clear sound has been measuring in the rectangular array both on and in front of the couch - per that diagram that's been passed around, and using the 8 measuring locations for XT. But it's crucial getting at least 1.5 feet of space between couch and mic. Otherwise I've had muddy sound.

The brightness could be because the mic is a few inches too high (as the L&R tweeters do fire right at my ear); it could be that the L & R speakers face straight out (meaning the treble is being boosted a bit to overcompensate for measurements in the middle area), or it's that the center is a bit higher and is not tilted downwards (I tend to think it sounds a bit better like this - but it could be causing a more "live" sound with the room). Or it's a combination.

If anyone has had success with setup procedure -- in getting clear sound w/ Audyssey that isn't treble-heavy -- please share.

Thank you
I used to have exactly the same problem with my Klipsch horn tweeters, too bright!!!


I always placed the mic exactly where the ears are, 5" away from the back of my seats.
When I moved the mic to 12" away from the back of the seat the warmth came back into the horns like a vengeance!
The speech now is absolutely superb, its just amazing to listen to with all that shrillness gone.
I'm over the moon with the warmth I have from the Klipsch horns which are often criticized for being bright.


In my case it was getting the mic away from the back of the seat, 12" for me is the magic spot.


Plus I do think getting the top of the mic inline with the tweeter for at least for the 1st position helps.
My tweeters are a bit higher than the ears for my most important row (middle) out of three. The 1st position I lift the mic to the tweeter height then drop it to the ear height for the other 7 measurements.


Experimentation is important, don't give up.
RapalloAV is offline  
Reply Receivers, Amps, and Processors

Tags
Audyssey , Receivers Amplifiers , Kef Kht1005 2se 5 1 Subwoofer Satellite System With C4 Subwoofer Gloss White , 5 6 7 1 7 2 Or 8 1 8 2 One Or Two Subwoofer Compatible 16 Banana Post 2 Rca Speaker Wall Plate For H
Gear in this thread

    Thread Tools
    Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
    Email this Page Email this Page


    Forum Jump: 

    Posting Rules  
    You may not post new threads
    You may not post replies
    You may not post attachments
    You may not edit your posts

    BB code is On
    Smilies are On
    [IMG] code is On
    HTML code is Off
    Trackbacks are Off
    Pingbacks are Off
    Refbacks are Off