"Official" Audyssey thread (FAQ in post #51779) - Page 2394 - AVS Forum
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post #71791 of 72388 Old 07-13-2014, 01:46 PM
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Originally Posted by Mr. Wonderful View Post
Thanks for replying. I guess my actual question was, I'm not sure if my subwoofer has the direct LFE input?

Plug the subwoofer output on your AVR into the Left line-in input on the bottom of your sub. Turn the knob marked 'frequency' all the way to the right. Set the phase switch to 0. Set the power switch to ON (not Auto). Start with the volume control in the middle and adjust till you get 75dB on the first Audyssey test tone. Run Audyssey. Enjoy!


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post #71792 of 72388 Old 07-13-2014, 02:58 PM
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Originally Posted by ph3ng View Post
1. Everything is a-ok? Just to clarify my front 3 speakers have their own amps. The woofers have the sa-amp and the back 2 are driven by the Denon. With that in mind, you reckon that it's unsurprising that I'd need to pretty much max out the SA Amp?
2. Secondly, I would like to confirm that if I can run Audyssey with a dual sub setup? Or should I revert back to one? This is just based on your input (about me having 2 subs) and another helpful post before saying that perhaps in Audyssey's mind, I've only got one.
1. Hmm... Gallo's are very different in the way the woofer is setup, with dual voice-coils, one feeding off a passive network and the other available for the SA-amp. Without proper measurements it is guess work, trying to come up with the best solution. I would try to run them full range for music, and use them as small (110Hz to 200Hz crossover, by experimenting) on movies, but that is just my best guess.

2. Audyssey dual sub. You can, but there is no reason to. If they are equi-distant to your listening position, just use a Y-cable and run them as a single sub.

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post #71793 of 72388 Old 07-14-2014, 10:03 PM
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Originally Posted by woody777 View Post
One last question...

I know a lot of people like to raise the center channel slightly (especially if they raise the subwoofer), but Audyssey is actually lowering my center channel by -2db. Audyssey set the center channel at +3db according to the parameter check menu, but in the channel level menu the center channel is set at +1db. The only settings I changed post Audyssey is large to small and all crossovers raised to 80. Any idea why this would happen?
I don't think question was ever answered. Anybody have any ideas?
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post #71794 of 72388 Old 07-15-2014, 12:40 AM
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Originally Posted by woody777 View Post
I don't think question was ever answered. Anybody have any ideas?
No idea why it happens, but you should not blame Audyssey. Audyssey does not set your levels, Audyssey does the calibration, but the levels are ultimately set by the AVR software and not by Audyssey.

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post #71795 of 72388 Old 07-15-2014, 02:51 AM
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Originally Posted by jjazdk View Post
1. Hmm... Gallo's are very different in the way the woofer is setup, with dual voice-coils, one feeding off a passive network and the other available for the SA-amp. Without proper measurements it is guess work, trying to come up with the best solution. I would try to run them full range for music, and use them as small (110Hz to 200Hz crossover, by experimenting) on movies, but that is just my best guess.

2. Audyssey dual sub. You can, but there is no reason to. If they are equi-distant to your listening position, just use a Y-cable and run them as a single sub.
Hei jjazdk. Thanks for the added info. I will give that a go.

As for point 2, well... the speakers aren't exactly equi-distant . BUT... I will go back to using the Y-cable and see how it goes. Thanks again.
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post #71796 of 72388 Old 07-15-2014, 02:58 AM
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Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post
Hi.

I looked at the images you posted, thanks. There seems to be no problem with the way you are set up. Incidentally, I would just use a Y-cord. As your 'subs' are, by definition, identical and equidistant from the MLP there's no advantage to be gained from Sub EQ HT's ability to set levels and distances separately. It makes for an easier setup for you.

I would also disable the XO in the SA amp - this is standard Audyssey advice and you will see it in the FAQ. Leave the XO to the AVR.

Given that you are set up correctly, the only remaining conclusion I can come to is that either the SA amp is not sufficiently powerful for the job (what is the power rating AAMOI?) or that it is not working correctly. It should be able to drive your subs to 75dB for the test tone at the start of Audyssey's cal.

So what are the consequences of just carrying in with an initial setting of 72dB? Well, your AVR sub trims will be higher by 3dB. So what are your final AVR trims? If they are still within a broad range of ±3.5dB then there is no problem, so long as they are not +3.5dB and you want to run them hot by 5dB and so on.

I don't feel that I have given you an entirely satisfactory answer, so if anyone else would care to chime in and add their own thoughts, it would perhaps be useful.
Hei kbarnes, thanks again for taking the time. The speakers aren't not EXACTLY equi-distant. Which is why I thought perhaps plugging it to use the Sub EQ might help to a certain degree. But I will definitely give Y-cable a go and see if that solves anything.

I had to look up AAMOI :P. The stats indicate:


2 x 160 watts RMS @ 8 ohms
20Hz - 20kHz (stereo mode)

2 x 250 watts RMS @ 4 ohms
20Hz - 20kHz (stereo mode)

450 watts RMS @ 8 ohms
20Hz - 20kHz (mono mode)

650 watts RMS @ 4 ohms
20Hz - 20kHz (mono mode)
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post #71797 of 72388 Old 07-15-2014, 03:21 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ph3ng View Post
The stats indicate:

2 x 160 watts RMS @ 8 ohms
20Hz - 20kHz (stereo mode)

2 x 250 watts RMS @ 4 ohms
20Hz - 20kHz (stereo mode)

450 watts RMS @ 8 ohms
20Hz - 20kHz (mono mode)

650 watts RMS @ 4 ohms
20Hz - 20kHz (mono mode)
Hmm... The speakers are 8 ohm, 2x160W is not a lot of power for a long throw 10" in a small sealed enclosure.

I would bridge the amp and parallel the two woofers, that will give you a 4 Ohm load and more power for each driver.

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post #71798 of 72388 Old 07-15-2014, 04:16 AM
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Originally Posted by jjazdk View Post
Hmm... The speakers are 8 ohm, 2x160W is not a lot of power for a long throw 10" in a small sealed enclosure.

I would bridge the amp and parallel the two woofers, that will give you a 4 Ohm load and more power for each driver.
Hei jjazdk, just to make doubly sure, the speakers though are hooked up to a MCA30. It's only woofer component that's hooked to the SA Amp.
Would you still proceed with what you just recommended?
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post #71799 of 72388 Old 07-15-2014, 04:18 AM
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Hello All, and thanks in advance for any help with this issue. I'm not sure if it is better to post in the Denon Owners' thread or here, so sorry for any misplaced post.

I am trying to set up my Denon AVR-890 using the Audyssey MultiEq. On the first measurement of the "Front L",after the test tone I get an error message: "Caution! no microphone or speaker".

The one issue I have is that the set up mic is the ACM-1H, and not the official DM-A409, but I have determined they are the same mic. I also have a Denon AVR-590, and the set up mic works fine with its Audyssey MutliEq.....

I have verified the speaker connection, phase, and tested the speaker terminals using another speaker, and other wire. All produce the above error message.

I have also tried to clean out the mic jack by blowing into it, and an inspection shows nothing in the jack. The AVR does respond to plugging into the mic jack, by going straight to the Audyssey menu.

I have also performed a reset (before connecting AVR), and once again after full connections. Still receive same error message.

So, any ideas or help would be greatly appreciated! This one has me stumped!
Thanks again.

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post #71800 of 72388 Old 07-15-2014, 04:36 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ph3ng View Post
Hei jjazdk, just to make doubly sure, the speakers though are hooked up to a MCA30. It's only woofer component that's hooked to the SA Amp.
Would you still proceed with what you just recommended?
Yes, exactly.. Instead of running "dual mono" with a Y-cable, I would bridge the SA Amp for the (sub)woofer terminals.

EDIT: Hmm... but.. That would require you to always have the sub-output engaged on the AVR, otherwise there is a potential issue. If the SA Amp is turned off and the woofers are in parallel, they will see each other (press one cone in, the other cone moves out), and this is definitely unwanted.

EDIT 2: Also.. If you want to use the 3.5s as full-range for music (i.e. no sub output to the SA Amp), the SA Amp should be switched off. Otherwise the SA Amp will act as a short circuit for the second voice coil. This is not dangerous to the woofers, but it will decrease their output and negatively affect their performance.

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Last edited by jjazdk; 07-15-2014 at 04:41 AM. Reason: Second thoughts
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post #71801 of 72388 Old 07-15-2014, 07:20 AM
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Originally Posted by bizwiz41 View Post
Hello All, and thanks in advance for any help with this issue. I'm not sure if it is better to post in the Denon Owners' thread or here, so sorry for any misplaced post.

I am trying to set up my Denon AVR-890 using the Audyssey MultiEq. On the first measurement of the "Front L",after the test tone I get an error message: "Caution! no microphone or speaker".

The one issue I have is that the set up mic is the ACM-1H, and not the official DM-A409, but I have determined they are the same mic. I also have a Denon AVR-590, and the set up mic works fine with its Audyssey MutliEq.....

I have verified the speaker connection, phase, and tested the speaker terminals using another speaker, and other wire. All produce the above error message.

I have also tried to clean out the mic jack by blowing into it, and an inspection shows nothing in the jack. The AVR does respond to plugging into the mic jack, by going straight to the Audyssey menu.

I have also performed a reset (before connecting AVR), and once again after full connections. Still receive same error message.

So, any ideas or help would be greatly appreciated! This one has me stumped!
Thanks again.
Can you hear the test tone from the left front during calibration (you didn't say)? If so, sounds like there is either something wrong with the mic (I know, unlikely as you said) or your AVR.
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post #71802 of 72388 Old 07-15-2014, 07:46 AM
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Unfortunately, I think you'll need to send your receiver in for repair. Your symptoms are consistent with an open-circuit in the receiver's microphone input. The microphone socket's signal connection is separate from its plug detection.

Selden
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post #71803 of 72388 Old 07-15-2014, 08:53 AM
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Originally Posted by Alan P View Post
Can you hear the test tone from the left front during calibration (you didn't say)? If so, sounds like there is either something wrong with the mic (I know, unlikely as you said) or your AVR.
Yes, I can hear the test tone through the front left speaker during calibration. As info, I do have the front left connected to the "A" terminals, and no speakers attached to "B". I do have the AVR speaker setting for "A" on speakers.

I feel like I am missing something very simple here, though I have no idea at this point. I am going to try connecting the front speakers to the "B" terminals, and then try the calibration.

Thanks for your reply, I appreciate it.

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post #71804 of 72388 Old 07-15-2014, 08:57 AM
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Originally Posted by Selden Ball View Post
Unfortunately, I think you'll need to send your receiver in for repair. Your symptoms are consistent with an open-circuit in the receiver's microphone input. The microphone socket's signal connection is separate from its plug detection.
Ouch!! I was hoping this wasn't the case. I did try the calibration without the mic, and yes, it did sense there was no mic. I then plugged it in, and started the calibration measurement, and the same error message appeared.

As I stated above, I'm hoping that I'm missing something simple (I've done it before!).

Thanks for the response and info, all help is greatly appreciated.

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post #71805 of 72388 Old 07-15-2014, 08:57 AM
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You aren't missing anything. As Selden said above something is broken. Probably the mic input, possibly but less likely the mic itself.
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post #71806 of 72388 Old 07-15-2014, 11:21 AM
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Originally Posted by batpig View Post
You aren't missing anything. As Selden said above something is broken. Probably the mic input, possibly but less likely the mic itself.
Thanks batpig for your reply. I know you are a Denon guru, so you're probably correct. I'll try a few more basic things just to exhaust other possibilities.

Thanks again.

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post #71807 of 72388 Old 07-16-2014, 08:15 AM
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Originally Posted by RapalloAV View Post
I used to have exactly the same problem with my Klipsch horn tweeters, too bright!!!


I always placed the mic exactly where the ears are, 5" away from the back of my seats.
When I moved the mic to 12" away from the back of the seat the warmth came back into the horns like a vengeance!
The speech now is absolutely superb, its just amazing to listen to with all that shrillness gone.
I'm over the moon with the warmth I have from the Klipsch horns which are often criticized for being bright.


In my case it was getting the mic away from the back of the seat, 12" for me is the magic spot.


Plus I do think getting the top of the mic inline with the tweeter for at least for the 1st position helps.
My tweeters are a bit higher than the ears for my most important row (middle) out of three. The 1st position I lift the mic to the tweeter height then drop it to the ear height for the other 7 measurements.


Experimentation is important, don't give up.
Thank you.

Experimenting again with having the mains aimed more outward for better lateral soundstaging and hopefully still get flatter response - and avoid reflection.

My tweeters and ear-height are almost identical, so I use that as the setting point.

My latest try involved toeing-in the fronts firing just behind the center-spot. Chris from Audyssey, if I understood him correctly, said that measuring on-axis like this delivers flattest results. I've tried this before to flatten the response and it does work. The fact that speakers are firing to middle eliminates a lot of reflection. The result is a more bearable sound, flatter, and the perceived loudness is not nearly as high - as I can turn up rather high without it being overbearing. Sound was warmer as well, and still clear. Although the trade-off is that there is very little to no lateral sound-staging. Hence the sound is not nearly as engaging or exciting. I typically sit about 2 or 3 feet to the left, a bit off-axis, but it is all relative. It's tricky in certain rooms, since if I aim the mains more outward, I feel that shrillness more at the far left listening spot (far left meaning only 2 or 3 feet from center, and a mic-measuring location as well).

The closest offender is the left wall, and that could factor. There are times though when Audyssey tames the highs in that area and it ceases to be issue. Either way the soundstage needs to be wider than it is, despite the left wall. I notice that most here do not use toe-in for mains, or if there is it is minimal (like most movie theaters). My set-up is a bit on the shoe-box shape (one side of the apartment L-shaped room) so want to have the soundstage at optimal width. Hoping to get that right balance.

Last edited by Napoleon D; 07-16-2014 at 09:34 AM.
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post #71808 of 72388 Old 07-16-2014, 10:11 AM
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I would tend to disagree, there are many of us that use toe-in and some that use a pretty gratuitous amount as well. My mains are hitting directly at the MLP headrest. Any further in, the stage breaks down a little, any further out and it gets a little too broad. RIght now it absolutely perfect.

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post #71809 of 72388 Old 07-16-2014, 04:00 PM
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Originally Posted by beastaudio View Post
I would tend to disagree, there are many of us that use toe-in and some that use a pretty gratuitous amount as well. My mains are hitting directly at the MLP headrest. Any further in, the stage breaks down a little, any further out and it gets a little too broad. RIght now it absolutely perfect.
I'll bet hitting that headrest is just about right, depending on how many people are sitting in the row.

I once heard that someone at Klipsch suggested that someone at the MLP should be able to look straight down the horn throats, but I'm guessing he was talking listening by a single individual only.

Someone else, about 4 years ago, at Home Theater Magazine (I think) advocated having the tweeters aimed at a spot a bit in front of the head of the listener sitting in the MLP, so that lines from them would cross in front of the listeners.

We can all experiment on our own, but has there ever been a good empirical study of this?

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post #71810 of 72388 Old 07-16-2014, 05:27 PM
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Originally Posted by jjazdk View Post
No idea why it happens, but you should not blame Audyssey. Audyssey does not set your levels, Audyssey does the calibration, but the levels are ultimately set by the AVR software and not by Audyssey.
I always have a hard time understanding, that statement, "Audyssey does not set your levels". Does the AVR ever not set the levels recommended by Audyssey?

-Tony
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post #71811 of 72388 Old 07-16-2014, 08:49 PM
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Originally Posted by garygarrison View Post
Someone else, about 4 years ago, at Home Theater Magazine (I think) advocated having the tweeters aimed at a spot a bit in front of the head of the listener sitting in the MLP, so that lines from them would cross in front of the listeners.

This is exactly how Hsu Research recommends placing their HB-1 bookshelves and it works quite well[emoji106]


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post #71812 of 72388 Old 07-17-2014, 08:41 AM
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Originally Posted by garygarrison View Post
I'll bet hitting that headrest is just about right, depending on how many people are sitting in the row.

I once heard that someone at Klipsch suggested that someone at the MLP should be able to look straight down the horn throats, but I'm guessing he was talking listening by a single individual only.

Someone else, about 4 years ago, at Home Theater Magazine (I think) advocated having the tweeters aimed at a spot a bit in front of the head of the listener sitting in the MLP, so that lines from them would cross in front of the listeners.

We can all experiment on our own, but has there ever been a good empirical study of this?
My own best compromise also crosses lines from the tweeters a little in front of my MLP. I would imagine that a study would be difficult in that so much would depend on the relative linearity of the tweeters. And I believe that can vary widely even among direct radiators. But I do know that some speaker manufacturers make specific recommendations on optimum toe-in for their specific speakers. I would assume that those recommendations are based on their own in-house studies. I don't know how many of those in-house experiments are ever published, though.
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post #71813 of 72388 Old 07-17-2014, 10:22 AM
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Originally Posted by ambesolman View Post
This is exactly how Hsu Research recommends placing their HB-1 bookshelves and it works quite well[emoji106]


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I would need to experiment more, as the lateral soundstage seems non-existent with excessive toe-in. This could come down to brand of speakers however. I use Energy C-100 bookshelves which cover down to 80Hz, and getting them aimed to middle creates tight but almost monotonous soundfield. My room is a bit on the long side, surrounds cannot be at the sides, and instead are in back corners of room fired to just-behind listener. Toe-in to listener for mains just doesn't produce a dynamic sound - in my case.
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post #71814 of 72388 Old 07-17-2014, 10:28 AM
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I really think it's your speakers (in combination with room acoustics to some degree). I know those speakers and they have a fairly recessed, warm treble. They are not particularly "spacious" or transparent sounding on their own. So I imagine when you do NOT toe them in you are just hearing a lot more reflections from the side walls vs. direct sound which makes them feel more "spacious". Toed in, the side walls are further off axis so you get more direct sound and lose those reflections.

You should experiment with your setup and find the happy compromise rather than relying on rules of thumb -- which by definition are really just generalizations and thus best viewed as starting points. You can probably find a toe in angle which preserves some of that soundstage while still bringing a little more focus to the MLP.

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post #71815 of 72388 Old 07-17-2014, 01:21 PM
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Originally Posted by garygarrison View Post
Someone else, about 4 years ago, at Home Theater Magazine (I think) advocated having the tweeters aimed at a spot a bit in front of the head of the listener sitting in the MLP, so that lines from them would cross in front of the listeners.
Goes back a lot further than that. Blumlein advocated it back in 1931.


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post #71816 of 72388 Old 07-17-2014, 01:29 PM
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J. Gordon Holt was into that; having the speakers' main axis intersecting in front of him.

Bests, ~ Robert § (Bob)

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post #71817 of 72388 Old 07-17-2014, 01:36 PM
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First best is always to follow what the manufacturer recommends. In case of Dali speakers they recommend no toe-in due to their wide dispersion sound design. More here: http://www.dali-speakers.com/en-US/S...persion-1.aspx

I have my front L&R Dalis placed parallel with the front wall. Although, due to room circumstanes a bit higher than ear level, but tilted downward.

Second best is to experiment, and in the end maybe return to "First best".

Cheers, Feri


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post #71818 of 72388 Old 07-19-2014, 05:35 PM
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x-over vs LPF for LFE

I have searched and searched for an answer, but could not find anything to address this question so I am posting. Audyssey settings are a 200Hz crossover point for the SL and SR speakers but the LPF for LFE is set to the "standard" 120Hz. So what happens to any surround channel information in the 120Hz - 200Hz range? I know there probably is not much there anyway, but still....
And anyway, just to throw a curve, my subs have a fixed passive LPF point set at (undefeatable) 135Hz.
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post #71819 of 72388 Old 07-19-2014, 06:43 PM
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Originally Posted by dfaber View Post
I have searched and searched for an answer, but could not find anything to address this question so I am posting. Audyssey settings are a 200Hz crossover point for the SL and SR speakers but the LPF for LFE is set to the "standard" 120Hz. So what happens to any surround channel information in the 120Hz - 200Hz range? I know there probably is not much there anyway, but still....
And anyway, just to throw a curve, my subs have a fixed passive LPF point set at (undefeatable) 135Hz.
Since all the lfe channel content is in the lfe (.1) channel, what happens in the surrounds' redirected bass doesn't affect it. Because changes related to the surround channels don't affect the lfe channel any more than they affect the front channels
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post #71820 of 72388 Old 07-20-2014, 07:27 AM
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Since all the lfe channel content is in the lfe (.1) channel, what happens in the surrounds' redirected bass doesn't affect it. Because changes related to the surround channels don't affect the lfe channel any more than they affect the front channels
Understood and thank you. Now the second minor issue. My sub inputs have a fixed 135Hz lpf. When Audyssey recommends a 200Hz crossover for the surrounds, will that create a "hole" in the surround channels 135Hz-200Hz range? Everything I have read so far tells me not to set crossovers lower than Audyssey-recommended crossover points.
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