"Official" Audyssey thread (FAQ in post #51779) - Page 2395 - AVS Forum
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post #71821 of 71845 Old 07-20-2014, 09:50 AM
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Originally Posted by dfaber View Post
Understood and thank you. Now the second minor issue. My sub inputs have a fixed 135Hz lpf. When Audyssey recommends a 200Hz crossover for the surrounds, will that create a "hole" in the surround channels 135Hz-200Hz range? Everything I have read so far tells me not to set crossovers lower than Audyssey-recommended crossover points.
Unfortunately you are 'correct'. The subs internal LPF at 135Hz will affect the overall response between it and the surrounds. However, it may not be quite as bad as you imagine, due to the fact that both sets of crossovers will have a gentle roll-off, not a brick wall effect. Therefore the sub will still have 'some' output above 135Hz, and the surrounds will have 'some' output below 200Hz - the 'hole' will hopefully be a shallow dip - and not very noticeable in the content sent to the surrounds. Ideally look at getting surrounds that measure lower in your room - high frequency output from the sub will cause it to be locatable, that depending upon it's location in your room may not be a good thing.
Regards, Mike.
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post #71822 of 71845 Old 07-20-2014, 10:01 AM
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Given that I would experiment with both the "recommended" 200hz and then also lowering to 150hz. See which sounds better. Lowering crossovers is not "orthodoxy" but IMO this type of situation is where I would potentially make an exception.

Most receivers don't have a setting in between 150hz and 200hz so if your speakers are rolling off just above 150 the xover will be set all the way up at the next available option at 200hz. So your speakers may have some useful output in the 150-200hz range and it may be worth "exposing" a bit of unfiltered bandwidth in order to get a smoother blend in the upper bass. Mating a sub to small sats without any bass response is always a bit tricky so I would allow your ears to overrule the common wisdom if it sounds better at 150hz.
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post #71823 of 71845 Old 07-20-2014, 10:01 AM
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Given that I would experiment with both the "recommended" 200hz and then also lowering to 150hz. See which sounds better. Lowering crossovers is not "orthodoxy" but IMO this type of situation is where I would potentially make an exception.

Most receivers don't have a setting in between 150hz and 200hz so if your speakers are rolling off just above 150 the xover will be set all the way up at the next available option at 200hz. So your speakers may have some useful output in the 150-200hz range and it may be worth "exposing" a bit of unfiltered bandwidth in order to get a smoother blend in the upper bass. Mating a sub to small sats without any bass response is always a bit tricky so I would allow your ears to overrule the common wisdom if it sounds better at 150hz.

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post #71824 of 71845 Old 07-20-2014, 10:23 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dfaber View Post
I have searched and searched for an answer, but could not find anything to address this question so I am posting. Audyssey settings are a 200Hz crossover point for the SL and SR speakers but the LPF for LFE is set to the "standard" 120Hz. So what happens to any surround channel information in the 120Hz - 200Hz range? I know there probably is not much there anyway, but still....
And anyway, just to throw a curve, my subs have a fixed passive LPF point set at (undefeatable) 135Hz.
You are receiving good advice from very experienced members here.

Here's one more tip for today.

Although you did not describe your room and the positions of surrounds in the room, but if you have a chance you may move your surrounds closer to a side wall or even to a corner. By this way you can make use of a phenomenon called "room-gain" resulting in extending the low frequency output of a speaker. Re-run Audyssey and check the crossover. Report back please.
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Last edited by mogorf; 07-20-2014 at 10:28 AM. Reason: typo
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post #71825 of 71845 Old 07-20-2014, 01:40 PM
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Originally Posted by mogorf View Post
You are receiving good advice from very experienced members here.

Here's one more tip for today.

Although you did not describe your room and the positions of surrounds in the room, but if you have a chance you may move your surrounds closer to a side wall or even to a corner. By this way you can make use of a phenomenon called "room-gain" resulting in extending the low frequency output of a speaker. Re-run Audyssey and check the crossover. Report back please.
Very much appreciate the advice here. The surrounds are positioned 6.5 feet directly to either side of the main listen position. The front line is 10 feet away and the subs are equidistant at the sides, also 6.5 feet away (see below). Unfortunately there is no wall close at the right side enough because the room opens to the hallway/entranceway on that side. I experimented with lowering the crossover frequency to 150Hz for the surrounds and played "Kind of Blue" on CD using the Marantz multichannel stereo mode to put as much information into the surround channels as possible. This recording features a lot of subtle bass walking lines which cover the area of interest here and I think that lowering the crossover to 150Hz fills out the bass a little bit and did not seem to localize it. Very small difference overall, difficult to really pick it out by ear, but I am going to leave it set to 150Hz for now.

The room is 17' by 33' with a high cathedral type ceiling.

Equipment is as follows:
Marantz SR5008 AVR
Panasonic DVD/CD source (generic/older unit).
NHT Classic Absolute Zero FL/FR
NHT Classic Absolute Center C
NHT ST4 (top section) SL/SR
NHT ST4 (bottom section) SW1/SW2
The ST4s are tower speakers with completely discrete chambers for the Mid/Hi top section (1"/6.5") and the sub section (8"). I am using a Brytson 4b amp for the subwoofers, 250wpc. [I know that is a bit different - I really like these speakers.] The ST4s are biamplified, obviously, but they retain their passive crossovers set at 135Hz whether you biamp or biwire.
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post #71826 of 71845 Old 07-20-2014, 02:09 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dfaber View Post
Very much appreciate the advice here. The surrounds are positioned 6.5 feet directly to either side of the main listen position. The front line is 10 feet away and the subs are equidistant at the sides, also 6.5 feet away (see below). Unfortunately there is no wall close at the right side enough because the room opens to the hallway/entranceway on that side. I experimented with lowering the crossover frequency to 150Hz for the surrounds and played "Kind of Blue" on CD using the Marantz multichannel stereo mode to put as much information into the surround channels as possible. This recording features a lot of subtle bass walking lines which cover the area of interest here and I think that lowering the crossover to 150Hz fills out the bass a little bit and did not seem to localize it. Very small difference overall, difficult to really pick it out by ear, but I am going to leave it set to 150Hz for now.

The room is 17' by 33' with a high cathedral type ceiling.

Equipment is as follows:
Marantz SR5008 AVR
Panasonic DVD/CD source (generic/older unit).
NHT Classic Absolute Zero FL/FR
NHT Classic Absolute Center C
NHT ST4 (top section) SL/SR
NHT ST4 (bottom section) SW1/SW2
The ST4s are tower speakers with completely discrete chambers for the Mid/Hi top section (1"/6.5") and the sub section (8"). I am using a Brytson 4b amp for the subwoofers, 250wpc. [I know that is a bit different - I really like these speakers.] The ST4s are biamplified, obviously, but they retain their passive crossovers set at 135Hz whether you biamp or biwire.
Let's hold it for a moment dfaber! Do I read it clearly that you are using your surrounds split up for surrounds (top section) and for subs (bottom section)? Wow, no wonder you get 200 Hz crossovers for your surround with Audyssey even with such capable towers.

How about making use of the full frequency range of the NHT ST4 (by putting back the jumper straps) and buying a separate subwoofer or two?
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post #71827 of 71845 Old 07-21-2014, 03:14 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dfaber View Post
Understood and thank you. Now the second minor issue. My sub inputs have a fixed 135Hz lpf. When Audyssey recommends a 200Hz crossover for the surrounds, will that create a "hole" in the surround channels 135Hz-200Hz range? Everything I have read so far tells me not to set crossovers lower than Audyssey-recommended crossover points.
Try this:

c)5. What is the LPF of LFE and what should it be set to?


c)4. Is it OK to change the Crossovers from Audyssey's recommendation?
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post #71828 of 71845 Old 07-21-2014, 05:35 AM
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Originally Posted by mogorf View Post
How about making use of the full frequency range of the NHT ST4 (by putting back the jumper straps) and buying a separate subwoofer or two?
And I will at some point, but I just bought the Marantz. The gear sounds very good as is, limiting the surrounds to 150-200Hz does not seem detrimental given that there really is not much lower than that in most TV/Movie surround channels and I listen to music in stereo mode.
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post #71829 of 71845 Old 07-21-2014, 09:31 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dfaber View Post
And I will at some point, but I just bought the Marantz. The gear sounds very good as is, limiting the surrounds to 150-200Hz does not seem detrimental given that there really is not much lower than that in most TV/Movie surround channels and I listen to music in stereo mode.
Good to hear, indeed. Congrats on the Marantz and hope at some point you will be able to enjoy real subwoof'ing in your system. BTW, just out of curiosity, is there any special reason you are using the towers (NHT ST4) as surrounds and bookshelves (NHT Classic Absolute Zero) for main L&Rs?

Last edited by mogorf; 07-21-2014 at 09:34 AM.
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post #71830 of 71845 Old 07-21-2014, 11:07 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mogorf View Post
Good to hear, indeed. Congrats on the Marantz and hope at some point you will be able to enjoy real subwoof'ing in your system. BTW, just out of curiosity, is there any special reason you are using the towers (NHT ST4) as surrounds and bookshelves (NHT Classic Absolute Zero) for main L&Rs?
I am using the the Absolute Zero speakers for main L&Rs because they match the NHT Absolute Center. I am thinking about Outlaw, HSU, or NHT subs to complete the system, I want to find something that will sound better than the two 8" / 250wpc that I get with the ST4s/Bryston 4b now. Thanks.
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post #71831 of 71845 Old 07-21-2014, 12:11 PM
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In a 17x33 room with cathedral ceiling, the two built-in 8" subs are definitely not sufficient for big impact movie bass. I would look into two high quality subs, at minimum $500 each (SVS PB-1000) and preferably a little more (e.g. Outlaw LFM).

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post #71832 of 71845 Old 07-21-2014, 02:44 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dfaber View Post
...limiting the surrounds to 150-200Hz does not seem detrimental given that there really is not much lower than that in most TV/Movie surround channels...
Are you talking about old DVDs?

There is plenty of LFE (if we mean below 120Hz) in surround channels on BD. Lots and lots, and I'm not recommending it, but if you have really good surrounds and XO at 40Hz (instead of the typical 80Hz) you'd be surprised how much there is (and in the backs with 7.1 sources). I think technically this LFE isn't really supposed to be there in the surround channels, but it sure is. You wouldn't be able to tell the way you have things set up, so you shouldn't say it isn't there; saying it usually isn't there or used to not be there or shouldn't be there is more practically correct.
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post #71833 of 71845 Old 07-21-2014, 02:51 PM
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To be pedantic, LFE would only be in the LFE channel (point 1) because that is the definition of LFE. Low frequency content in the main 5 or 7 channels (which ARE full range) is not "LFE", it's just low frequency content. But that's the point of bass management.
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post #71834 of 71845 Old 07-21-2014, 06:21 PM
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Originally Posted by batpig View Post
To be pedantic, LFE would only be in the LFE channel (point 1) because that is the definition of LFE. Low frequency content in the main 5 or 7 channels (which ARE full range) is not "LFE", it's just low frequency content. But that's the point of bass management.
Oh yeah. Pedantic kids rule!

Using the terms to mean what they mean, rather than something similar but different, allows actual communication to occur. That's why I don't say gasoline when I mean electricity even though both are sources of power to operate equipment and or vehicles.
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post #71835 of 71845 Old 07-21-2014, 06:29 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by batpig View Post
To be pedantic, LFE would only be in the LFE channel (point 1) because that is the definition of LFE. Low frequency content in the main 5 or 7 channels (which ARE full range) is not "LFE", it's just low frequency content. But that's the point of bass management.
Oh yeah. Pedantic kids rule!

Using the terms to mean what they mean, rather than something similar but different, allows actual communication to occur. That's why I don't say gasoline when I mean electricity even though both are sources of power to operate equipment and or vehicles.
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post #71836 of 71845 Old 07-22-2014, 09:40 AM
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^ Yeah, sorry about that. As (re-) defined in my comment, I clearly meant (and said) content below 120Hz. [And I know you know that I know, so presume you're doing for the permanent record, and not for me.] But I also appreciate pedanticism...not so much (bad) analogies, which need to be used very carefully and at considerable risk in any tech forum.

Doesn't change the fact that there's very often plenty of content below 120Hz (never mind 200Hz) in surrounds. You won't hear it if you follow the mainstream, but then, most peoples' surrounds are incapable of properly reproducing it anyway, so best to set the BM XO higher than lower.
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post #71837 of 71845 Old 07-22-2014, 09:55 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dfaber View Post
I have searched and searched for an answer, but could not find anything to address this question so I am posting. Audyssey settings are a 200Hz crossover point for the SL and SR speakers but the LPF for LFE is set to the "standard" 120Hz. So what happens to any surround channel information in the 120Hz - 200Hz range? I know there probably is not much there anyway, but still....
And anyway, just to throw a curve, my subs have a fixed passive LPF point set at (undefeatable) 135Hz.
It was my understanding that all LFE content is directed to the .1 or sub output on the AVR so I would think LFE content not within the 120Hz crossover is discarded and any bass (low freq) coming out elsewhere is not LFE in origin. In other words "surround information" is not LFE...

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post #71838 of 71845 Old Yesterday, 08:11 AM
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It is not originally LFE, as it was coded into the surround channel, but crossing the surround channel, i.e. making it "small" will in fact redirect the sound TO the sub channel. the .1 channel in mixing has it's very own material, the satellite speaker's response below their crossover is just added to that...

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post #71839 of 71845 Old Yesterday, 08:48 AM
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Ironed out Audyssey/toe-in issues after some experimentation. With with my room/speakers, the best Audyssey results is where first-measurement is on axis to all 5 speakers - or very close. Speaker toe-in aimed just behind center . One thing I should have done more of in past was spread the fronts out a bit more - closer to 50-55 degrees. It's tricky with room and keeping away from sidewalls - but first reflection point will be 3-4 feet away no matter what. Kept microphone at tweeter level for fronts - which is ear level too - and keep mic at LEAST a foot from couch. Not toeing in fronts causes too bright a result in this room, perhaps as it's trying to overcompensate to reach the center spot (per FAQ), and reflections. But the toe-in and ear-level measurement were important to working with the room to eliminate the brightness, eliminate reflection best as possible, and flatten response. The subwoofer has been modified, and the area treated - so the lower-region is as tight as it can be.

The problem I was facing was a non-existent lateral soundstage when using the toe-in, especially sitting a few feet to the left off-axis. It turns out it was a mild bass hole from the mains i was missing. Upping the crossover to 100z filled in a mild hole the Energy C-100s weren't producing at 80Hz. (Audyssey crossed them at 80Hz, but the sub does a touch better job for just that 80-100 range). Granted I have all rear-ports of speakers plugged, as that is the right move for their locations. For the main L&R though - needed just a touch more fullness for their location. Unplugging-foam from the mains would do the trick but having the sub, with far more EQ filters, fills in that small region much more efficiently. Can't localize that bass if I tried. Result has been best I've ever had. I use Dynamic EQ as I have for years - LFE or bass has never been overinflated since the bass was set up correctly. Volume is within 10dbs of reference before it gets overwhelming, which isn't bad for an apartment (never disturb neighbors more importantly).

There is still some mild room-reflection, can tell by some ear fatigue. But it's still a much more pleasing sound than before. I credit the Denon X1000 for a lot of it after meeting it halfway.
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post #71840 of 71845 Old Yesterday, 09:13 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by beastaudio View Post
It is not originally LFE, as it was coded into the surround channel, but crossing the surround channel, i.e. making it "small" will in fact redirect the sound TO the sub channel. the .1 channel in mixing has it's very own material, the satellite speaker's response below their crossover is just added to that...
Again, I think we are talking LFE here and LFE is LFE is LFE. If we aren't specifically talking LFE content, maybe the OP can clarify.

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post #71841 of 71845 Old Yesterday, 10:45 AM
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Yes, .1 is LFE, the setting to cutoff frequencies above "x" on the LFE ONLY affects the LFE content, the redirected content still gets passed through from it's selected crossover frequency separately from the LPF for LFE setting. The OP did also mention he had a lpf on the sub, this is fact WOULD hinder the frequencies from 200hz down to the 135hz setting to not get presented via the sub. I find it hard to believe anyone would put an "undefeatable" LPF on a sub at 135hz though. That is unfortunate.

IF there is in fact a way to defeat this LPF on the sub itself, then yes, the 200hz and below content from your surrounds will be redirected to your subwoofer channel. not the "LFE" channel, but still redirected to the subwoofer nonetheless.

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post #71842 of 71845 Old Yesterday, 10:46 AM
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DP

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post #71843 of 71845 Old Yesterday, 02:20 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by beastaudio View Post
The OP did also mention he had a lpf on the sub, this is fact WOULD hinder the frequencies from 200hz down to the 135hz setting to not get presented via the sub. I find it hard to believe anyone would put an "undefeatable" LPF on a sub at 135hz though. That is unfortunate.
Beast -- perhaps you missed the part where his "subwoofers" are actually the bottom of the NHT tower speakers he is using as surrounds. They are bi-amp capable and he has a separate power amp feeding the two bottom (woofer) sections as dual subs for XT32. So it's not that he has a separate sub without a bypass mode, he is dealing with the fixed 135hz passive crossover built into the speaker. Another reason why it's probably good that he lowered the xover on the surrounds from 200hz to 150hz.

QUOTE:

The room is 17' by 33' with a high cathedral type ceiling.

Equipment is as follows:
Marantz SR5008 AVR
Panasonic DVD/CD source (generic/older unit).
NHT Classic Absolute Zero FL/FR
NHT Classic Absolute Center C
NHT ST4 (top section) SL/SR
NHT ST4 (bottom section) SW1/SW2
The ST4s are tower speakers with completely discrete chambers for the Mid/Hi top section (1"/6.5") and the sub section (8"). I am using a Brytson 4b amp for the subwoofers, 250wpc. [I know that is a bit different - I really like these speakers.] The ST4s are biamplified, obviously, but they retain their passive crossovers set at 135Hz whether you biamp or biwire.

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post #71844 of 71845 Old Yesterday, 07:02 PM
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If one had three front speakers of one brand and all the rest in a 11.2 setup of another brand, does Audyssey XT32 try to timber match them?
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post #71845 of 71845 Old Yesterday, 07:43 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RapalloAV View Post
If one had three front speakers of one brand and all the rest in a 11.2 setup of another brand, does Audyssey XT32 try to timber match them?
Yes!

I have three B&Ws in front and 2 KEFs as surround, as well as two M&K subwoofers. I hear distinct timbral differences with circulating pink noise test tones on a calibration disc, but these differences are much less once XT32 is turned on.

XT32 equalizes the subwoofers together after setting the levels, so they won't exactly be timbre-matched (which shouldn't make any difference with subs).
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Reply Receivers, Amps, and Processors

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