"Official" Audyssey thread (FAQ in post #51779) - Page 2396 - AVS Forum
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post #71851 of 72815 Old 07-24-2014, 06:00 PM
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No, you are not good. That means the receiver "ran out of room" attempting to negatively trim your subs. You need to lower the gain (try 1/4 to 1/3 gain) and then re-run Audyssey. You want it NOT to be "pegged" at the max value.

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post #71852 of 72815 Old 07-24-2014, 06:06 PM
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Originally Posted by cuzzin View Post
I see. Okay, so I checked the "Subwoofer Level" in the Audio menu of my receiver and it is at -12 dB. So I guess I'm good then? Thanks.
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post #71853 of 72815 Old 07-24-2014, 06:10 PM
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Gotcha, thanks guys. Guess I will try re-running Audyssey tonight with the gain lowered.

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post #71854 of 72815 Old 07-25-2014, 04:59 AM
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Originally Posted by cuzzin View Post
Hey, so I ran Audyssey on my receiver to tide me over until a pro comes out to calibrate my setup, but I have a question: one of the instructions given to me during setup was to turn the volume/gain on my subwoofer to the halfway point. Before running Audyssey, it was at a lower setting. Should the gain remain at halfway after calibration has completed?
All the info you need is here:

f)3. How do I set the controls on my subwoofer before running MultEQ?
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post #71855 of 72815 Old 07-25-2014, 09:35 AM
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Sorry: you need to turn the subwoofer gain control way down, probably even lower than where it was originally.

"Between", not "at". Unfortunately, a value of -12dB is where Audyssey pegs on most equipment. That value means that Audyssey turned down the receiver's subwoofer output as far as it could and it was still too loud.

*sigh*

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post #71856 of 72815 Old 07-26-2014, 04:19 PM
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Originally Posted by cuzzin View Post
I see. Okay, so I checked the "Subwoofer Level" in the Audio menu of my receiver and it is at -12 dB. So I guess I'm good then? Thanks.
I don't think so. I had a similar result and someone on here chastised me and told me to re-run until the trim was lower. I said the hell with wit cuz it sounded good to me....But: Please read this from the Audyssey Setup Guide, Subwoofer section:
Check the subwoofer trim level setting in the receiver / processor menu.
If the subwoofers’ trim level is at the maximum limit of the cut (-) or boost (+) adjustment range allowed, you need to adjust the volume control on the subwoofer and repeat step #2 . Specific instructions will follow.
Trim adjustments are a tool used to achieve the goal of producing the same Sound Pressure Level (SPL) from each speaker / subwoofer in the system.
For example, Denon receivers have a trim adjustment range from -12dB to +12dB.

If the subwoofer trim level is at the maximum boost (e.g. +12db), turn up the volume control on the subwoofer slightly and repeat step #2 .

If the subwoofer trim level is at the maximum cut (e.g. -12db), turn down the volume control on the subwoofer slightly and repeat step #2 .

A suggestion for tweakers is to adjust the sub volume such that the resulting subwoofer trim is in the range of ±3 dB.
This is only a suggestion for the tweaker who likes to play around.
Audyssey’s position is to perform steps 4 to 6 above.

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post #71857 of 72815 Old 07-28-2014, 08:24 AM
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Originally Posted by Scott Oakley View Post
I don't think so. I had a similar result and someone on here chastised me and told me to re-run until the trim was lower. I said the hell with wit cuz it sounded good to me....
But, it could sound better and you'll never know.
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post #71858 of 72815 Old 07-28-2014, 11:24 PM
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When you turn Audyssey to OFF and listen, there is obviously a lack of highs, is this actually the speakers real sound reacting within the acoustics of that room?
Pure clean sound the speaker produces in any said location, un-coloured by Audyssey or any other EQ system.


Is this an accurate statement?
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post #71859 of 72815 Old 07-29-2014, 05:51 AM
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Originally Posted by RapalloAV View Post
When you turn Audyssey to OFF and listen, there is obviously a lack of highs, is this actually the speakers real sound reacting within the acoustics of that room?
Pure clean sound the speaker produces in any said location, un-coloured by Audyssey or any other EQ system.


Is this an accurate statement?
When you put a speaker into a room, what you hear is the combined sound of the speaker and the room. (With subwoofers it is almost all the room).

When you put a speaker into an untreated or poorly treated room, then the room will add distortions of its own caused by modes and unwanted reflections.

When you properly treat a room, the room will have less malign influence on the sound departing from the speaker.

When you EQ the sound before it gets to the speaker, you have the opportunity to correct for the malign influence of the room by creating filters which 'cancel out' those malign influences, as far as EQ is able to do so - EQ cannot cancel out nulls for example.

There is no such thing as 'pure, clean sound' produced by a speaker, unless you are thinking of it in an anechoic environment. Once the speaker goes into a room it interacts with it. Acoustic treatment can, if it is well conceived and executed, considerably reduce that interaction and EQ can help reduce it if used in isolation or help improve the results of physical treatments if used alongside them.

When you have EQd the speaker/room with Audyssey, and then you turn it off, you are hearing the room's influences on the sound once more. You are NOT hearing the 'pure sound' of the speaker - just the malign influences on the sound (peaks, dips, etc etc) on the speaker: the speaker/room combination.
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post #71860 of 72815 Old 07-29-2014, 06:43 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RapalloAV View Post
When you turn Audyssey to OFF and listen, there is obviously a lack of highs, is this actually the speakers real sound reacting within the acoustics of that room?
Pure clean sound the speaker produces in any said location, un-coloured by Audyssey or any other EQ system.




Is this an accurate statement?
Actually whenever you turn "Audyssey" off you not only turn off MultEQ but you also turn off DynEQ at the same time (with the exception of some Onkyo models) therefore you will obviously lack highs (and lows as well) whenever you are listening at lower than 0 dB Master Volume setting.

In this case the compensation for ear characteristics is taken away, and that is what you hear.

This has nothing to do with speaker-room interaction, it works the same outside.
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post #71861 of 72815 Old 07-29-2014, 11:25 AM
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Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post
When you put a speaker into a room, what you hear is the combined sound of the speaker and the room. (With subwoofers it is almost all the room).

When you put a speaker into an untreated or poorly treated room, then the room will add distortions of its own caused by modes and unwanted reflections.

When you properly treat a room, the room will have less malign influence on the sound departing from the speaker.

When you EQ the sound before it gets to the speaker, you have the opportunity to correct for the malign influence of the room by creating filters which 'cancel out' those malign influences, as far as EQ is able to do so - EQ cannot cancel out nulls for example.

There is no such thing as 'pure, clean sound' produced by a speaker, unless you are thinking of it in an anechoic environment. Once the speaker goes into a room it interacts with it. Acoustic treatment can, if it is well conceived and executed, considerably reduce that interaction and EQ can help reduce it if used in isolation or help improve the results of physical treatments if used alongside them.

When you have EQd the speaker/room with Audyssey, and then you turn it off, you are hearing the room's influences on the sound once more. You are NOT hearing the 'pure sound' of the speaker - just the malign influences on the sound (peaks, dips, etc etc) on the speaker: the speaker/room combination.

I think this is a very well thought-out and articulated description of speaker vis-a-vis room, vis-a-vis EQ. The only thing I might add is that I am not really sure that there is such a thing as the pure clean sound of the speaker, even in an anechoic space, as most speakers are designed to interact with room modes. And different speakers have different sonic characteristics irrespective of environment. So, I think I know what the OP was asking, but the truth is that the whole thing is a bit of a crap-shoot.

We choose speakers that are well reviewed, or that we personally like the sound of. We hope that those speakers will interact well with our rooms, even if we are doing extensive room treatments. And for music listening, too much room treatment may actually be counterproductive. And then we add Audyssey, or some other version of EQ, to enhance the room/speaker interaction, and hope that helps. For the vast majority of us, including myself, it does. The worst scenario for me would be to turn-off Audyssey and like the "pure clean sound of the speakers", because that would mean that Audyssey was failing to improve the room/speaker interaction. And in most cases, although not all, that would likely be due to user error.

Sorry for going on a bit, but I thought this was an interesting issue.
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post #71862 of 72815 Old 07-29-2014, 11:44 AM
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Originally Posted by mthomas47 View Post
I think this is a very well thought-out and articulated description of speaker vis-a-vis room, vis-a-vis EQ. The only thing I might add is that I am not really sure that there is such a thing as the pure clean sound of the speaker, even in an anechoic space, as most speakers are designed to interact with room modes. And different speakers have different sonic characteristics irrespective of environment. So, I think I know what the OP was asking, but the truth is that the whole thing is a bit of a crap-shoot.

We choose speakers that are well reviewed, or that we personally like the sound of. We hope that those speakers will interact well with our rooms, even if we are doing extensive room treatments. And for music listening, too much room treatment may actually be counterproductive. And then we add Audyssey, or some other version of EQ, to enhance the room/speaker interaction, and hope that helps. For the vast majority of us, including myself, it does. The worst scenario for me would be to turn-off Audyssey and like the "pure clean sound of the speakers", because that would mean that Audyssey was failing to improve the room/speaker interaction. And in most cases, although not all, that would likely be due to user error.

Sorry for going on a bit, but I thought this was an interesting issue.
I agree with what you say. My objective in choosing speakers is to opt for the most neutral and transparent designs I can. I tend to believe, and this is controversial so others may (and will) disagree, that 'pro' speakers are designed for neutrality as far as this is possible, and 'hifi' speakers or 'audiophile' speakers are designed around a 'house voice' which the makers are proud of and which their enthusiast buyers like. On AVS all my comments only ever refer to HT sound and never to music (I do enjoy music but I listen on high quality, but old, 2 channel gear in a separate room to my HT setup). For HTs where music is not an important separate issue, eg my own, I just want as much transparency and neutrality as I can get, and speakers with a Pro heritage do that for me. I don't want my speakers to 'enhance' the sound, or to make it 'more beautiful' or more 'musical' or more easy on the ear (all of those things I can tolerate happily for my music system). Then I want my acoustic treatments and EQ to remove as much of the room's malign influence as I can, leaving the mix and the m/ch presentation to do its stuff.

Incidentally, I have used REW extensively to help me determine where to place treatments and so on.

And before anyone else leaps in and says "there's no such thing as a speaker that is good for movies but not good for music, and v-v" or "the speaker doesn't 'know' what it is playing", I am not prepared to debate that. Movie soundtracks are different to music soundtracks and require different operating parameters to be observed - eg bass that goes flat to 10hz and at 115dB. Speakers for music only need not concern themselves with that (unless you are the one person in about a million who listens extensively to pipe organ music of course LOL).
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post #71863 of 72815 Old 07-29-2014, 12:50 PM
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Originally Posted by mthomas47 View Post
The only thing I might add is that I am not really sure that there is such a thing as the pure clean sound of the speaker, even in an anechoic space, as most speakers are designed to interact with room modes.
Thomas, this is interesting. Care to elaborate on how speakers are designed to interact with room modes? There are so many rooms out there with so many different room modes. How can a speaker designer take into account all those variables?
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post #71864 of 72815 Old 07-29-2014, 01:20 PM
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Yea, I would love to hear more about that too. I live in a world where just about every speaker I know of aims for a flat anechoic response, or as close as they are able to get to it... This takes the room completely out of the equation, not design around a floating point that the designer could never conceivably understand what is needed once their design is in any one specific room. I think something has gotten lost in translation here...Room modes are inherent to listening to speakers in any enclosed space, and designers know that, but they certainly don't design around that...

Now, designs can be flavored to sound unique by tweaking areas of the passband, or even be designed to create more efficiency, or more full range sound, but can't really be designed to "room modes" in particular.
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post #71865 of 72815 Old 07-29-2014, 01:20 PM
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post #71866 of 72815 Old 07-29-2014, 01:51 PM
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Originally Posted by mogorf View Post
Thomas, this is interesting. Care to elaborate on how speakers are designed to interact with room modes? There are so many rooms out there with so many different room modes. How can a speaker designer take into account all those variables?
I agree it's interesting and I also agree that speaker makers can't possibly take into account all of the variables of different room modes. That is one reason so many of us can benefit from some type of room correction software. But some direct speakers are clearly designed to be placed closer to boundary walls, for instance, and planar speakers are designed to be well away from walls. Those are obvious examples of speakers which are designed to interact in fairly specific ways with the room.

I took Keith's point of preferring speakers which are as wholly room-independent as possible, but even so, many speakers are designed to be toed-in, or specifically not toed-in, or depending on sensitivity, power rating, or available wattage may work better or worse in a particular circumstance. And the clear pure sound of the speakers can change with every one of those factors, somewhat independently of specific room modes.

I was simply trying to make the point that there are a lot of variables in play: the individual characteristics of the speakers (and how they were designed to be used); specific room and placement issues (including room size, geometry, furniture arrangement, distance to MLP, WAF, available wattage, etc.); room treatments; and finally room correction, which even with Audyssey comes in multiple iterations. With so many variables, the idea of the "clear pure sound of the speakers" becomes less and less a discretely identifiable thing, and more and more the product of specific circumstances, choices, physical and financial compromises, and ultimately, personal preferences.
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post #71867 of 72815 Old 07-29-2014, 02:01 PM
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Originally Posted by mthomas47 View Post
I agree it's interesting and I also agree that speaker makers can't possibly take into account all of the variables of different room modes. That is one reason so many of us can benefit from some type of room correction software. But some direct speakers are clearly designed to be placed closer to boundary walls, for instance, and planar speakers are designed to be well away from walls. Those are obvious examples of speakers which are designed to interact in fairly specific ways with the room.

I took Keith's point of preferring speakers which are as wholly room-independent as possible, but even so, many speakers are designed to be toed-in, or specifically not toed-in, or depending on sensitivity, power rating, or available wattage may work better or worse in a particular circumstance. And the clear pure sound of the speakers can change with every one of those factors, somewhat independently of specific room modes.

I was simply trying to make the point that there are a lot of variables in play: the individual characteristics of the speakers (and how they were designed to be used); specific room and placement issues (including room size, geometry, furniture arrangement, distance to MLP, WAF, available wattage, etc.); room treatments; and finally room correction, which even with Audyssey comes in multiple iterations. With so many variables, the idea of the "clear pure sound of the speakers" becomes less and less a discretely identifiable thing, and more and more the product of specific circumstances, choices, physical and financial compromises, and ultimately, personal preferences.
Thomas, I do appreciate all of your above descriptions, but can we come to mutual agreement that there is no speaker in the world that is purposely designed to interact with room modes?
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post #71868 of 72815 Old 07-29-2014, 02:10 PM
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Room Modes

I probably used the term "room modes" too loosely in my initial post. So let me correct that. I will simply say that different speakers may be designed to interact in different ways with rooms. If that point is still believed to be unhelpful, I will let the matter drop. I have pretty well wrung all of my meager insight out of this anyway.
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I have speakers which seem to be designed to interact with room modes (for some definitions of the phrase). In particular, they have side-firing 10" woofers. The installation instructions explicitly say that they should be placed close to the wall behind them in order to get proper reinforcement of bass frequencies.

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Originally Posted by mthomas47 View Post
I probably used the term "room modes" too loosely in my initial post. So let me correct that. I will simply say that different speakers may be designed to interact in different ways with rooms. If that point is still believed to be unhelpful, I will let the matter drop. I have pretty well wrung all of my meager insight out of this anyway.
Well, actually room modes are there even if there are no speakers in the room, eh? Room modes depend on room dimensions not speakers. How a speaker interacts with room modes is a whole new story. Or an old one?
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post #71871 of 72815 Old 07-29-2014, 02:27 PM
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I have speakers which seem to be designed to interact with room modes (for some definitions of the phrase). In particular, they have side-firing 10" woofers. The installation instructions explicitly say that they should be placed close to the wall behind them in order to get proper reinforcement of bass frequencies.
This IMHO is a pretty loose definition of the phrase. Marketing comes to mind!
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post #71872 of 72815 Old 07-29-2014, 02:29 PM
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Originally Posted by mthomas47 View Post
I probably used the term "room modes" too loosely in my initial post. So let me correct that. I will simply say that different speakers may be designed to interact in different ways with rooms. If that point is still believed to be unhelpful, I will let the matter drop. I have pretty well wrung all of my meager insight out of this anyway.
I think you gave very good examples of speakers specifically designed to take interaction with the room into account. There are many other examples you could also have used. It is fairly obvious to me that many speaker manufacturers, especially so-called 'audiophile' brands, work from the premise that their speakers will be used in an untreated room, with no electronic EQ, and so they design their speakers with this in mind.

OTOH, Pro speaker manufacturers almost certainly work from the premise that their speakers WILL be used in treated rooms and with additional electronic EQ and this is why they perhaps achieve so much more neutrality than the audiophile designs, when used in the way intended.
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Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post
I think you gave very good examples of speakers specifically designed to take interaction with the room into account. There are many other examples you could also have used. It is fairly obvious to me that many speaker manufacturers, especially so-called 'audiophile' brands, work from the premise that their speakers will be used in an untreated room, with no electronic EQ, and so they design their speakers with this in mind.

OTOH, Pro speaker manufacturers almost certainly work from the premise that their speakers WILL be used in treated rooms and with additional electronic EQ and this is why they perhaps achieve so much more neutrality than the audiophile designs, when used in the way intended.
Any backup of those premises would be grand.
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post #71876 of 72815 Old 07-29-2014, 04:43 PM
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Originally Posted by Selden Ball View Post
I have speakers which seem to be designed to interact with room modes (for some definitions of the phrase). In particular, they have side-firing 10" woofers. The installation instructions explicitly say that they should be placed close to the wall behind them in order to get proper reinforcement of bass frequencies.
Which particular bass frequencies? Does the installation instructions specify them?
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Originally Posted by mthomas47 View Post
I probably used the term "room modes" too loosely in my initial post. So let me correct that. I will simply say that different speakers may be designed to interact in different ways with rooms. If that point is still believed to be unhelpful, I will let the matter drop. I have pretty well wrung all of my meager insight out of this anyway.
Thomas, the bolded part is what worries me. Especially when it comes to "design". IMHO, there is no way a designer can take into account the room (any room, many rooms) characteristics in the design stage. Do you agree?

BTW, what exactly do you mean by "different ways". I feel it a bit vague!

Last edited by mogorf; 07-29-2014 at 05:05 PM.
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post #71878 of 72815 Old 07-30-2014, 08:38 AM
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I'm getting an Onkyo TX-NR929 receiver with Audyssey XT32.
My setup will be in a smaller size room.
With the sofa (main seating location) up against the back wall, where do I place the microphone to get the 7th and 8th position measurements?

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post #71879 of 72815 Old 07-30-2014, 09:30 AM
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Personally, I've had great results with keeping all mic positions in a small grouping around the MLP, like within a few inches of each other.
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post #71880 of 72815 Old 07-30-2014, 09:57 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by coolcat4843 View Post
I'm getting an Onkyo TX-NR929 receiver with Audyssey XT32.
My setup will be in a smaller size room.
With the sofa (main seating location) up against the back wall, where do I place the microphone to get the 7th and 8th position measurements?
Use it to 'fill in' around the MLP positions. General info on mic placement here, in the FAQ:

d)3. Where should I position the mic for best results?
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