"Official" Audyssey thread (FAQ in post #51779) - Page 2397 - AVS Forum
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post #71881 of 72815 Old 07-30-2014, 10:34 AM
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I found this in an article which featured an interview with Chris Kyriakakis, Audyssey's CTO and founder:

"The mic should always be placed at a seated listener's ear height and facing the ceiling; it's calibrated to work best that way. The ideal way to position the mic is to place it on a camera tripod. Start in the center position and then move 2 feet to the left of it and then 2 feet to the right. Continuing through the next mic positions move 2 feet forward and take three more measurements in parallel with the first three. If you have Audyssey MultEQ XT, take the seventh and eighth measurements about 1 foot to either side of the center point and slightly forward of it (or behind it, if the couch is not up against the wall)."

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post #71882 of 72815 Old 07-30-2014, 10:58 AM
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post #71883 of 72815 Old 07-30-2014, 01:20 PM
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FAQ UPDATE!!

I have added a new section to the FAQ, called Audyssey and Dolby Atmos.

This section currently has just three questions with provisional answers. As more information about Audyssey and Atmos comes out over the next few weeks I will update and add to this section.

k1) How do I place the mic for Dolby Atmos ceiling speakers?

k)2. Will Audyssey work properly with Atmos-enabled speaker designs?

k)3. Will a calibration include the added speakers in the Atmos configuration?
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post #71884 of 72815 Old 07-30-2014, 01:47 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post
Sure. Read this:

www.hifizine.com/2011/09/prototyping-dipole-bass-system/

And this:

www.linkwitzlab.com/LX521/Description.htm



As you can see from the links, he isn't likely to agree with your opinion.

But I am not debating it with you, so there's no need to reply.
Thank you for sharing these articles. Actually neither one of them addresses the original topic, i.e. designing speakers to interact with room modes. The authors are making measurements in their own rooms with their particular room dimensions.

For a speaker/driver design engineer at Klipsch, KEF, Boston Acoustics, Dali, Jamo, etc. it would be mission impossible to achive such a goal. Let's think of it this way. It would really be wonderful to have speakers that take into consideration our own room's modes coz in that case there would be no need for acoustical treatments and electronic EQ since the speaker/driver designed in such a way and placed into our rooms (read: any room) would immediately identify the particular room modes and would take care of them instantly. Great idea, but unfortunately that is not the case. Our common sense dictates the other way around.

Or a beast said: "I think something has gotten lost in translation here...Room modes are inherent to listening to speakers in any enclosed space, and designers know that, but they certainly don't design around that..."

Thank you again for trying to help.
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post #71885 of 72815 Old 07-30-2014, 01:51 PM
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Originally Posted by mogorf View Post
Thank you for sharing these articles. Actually neither one of them addresses the original topic, i.e. designing speakers to interact with room modes. The authors are making measurements in their own rooms with their particular room dimensions.

Thank you again for trying to help.
Thank you for trying to understand the articles.

You probably need to read them again, perhaps more thoroughly.

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post #71886 of 72815 Old 07-30-2014, 03:25 PM
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Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post
Thank you for trying to understand the articles.

You probably need to read them again, perhaps more thoroughly.
Me thinks you need to try to read what beast and I have said again. Beast has more subs in his room than you and I together!
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post #71887 of 72815 Old 07-31-2014, 03:14 AM
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Originally Posted by mogorf View Post
Me thinks you need to try to read what beast and I have said again. Beast has more subs in his room than you and I together!
I see you didn't read the articles then. No problem. Like I said, I have better ways to waste my time than with this, so it's time to move on.
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post #71888 of 72815 Old 07-31-2014, 03:41 AM
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Stick to the topic and not each other. Bickering ceases now, please.
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post #71889 of 72815 Old 07-31-2014, 04:31 PM
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So, after a little intermezzo and to remain on topic, it should be clear by now that speaker/driver design engineers can not take a phenomenon called "room modes" into account during their R&D stage coz it's simply an unknown factor for them. What room the speakers will be put into varies a lot, depends on room shape and dimensions, yet the best that can be done is already done in the maker's anechoic chambers during the test period when it comes to preparing the spec sheet of a given speaker box.

From hereon it is the end-user who may care (or not care) about acoustical room treatments and about electronic EQ'ing of the room-speaker interaction in order to make his/her system sound the best.

Hope this helps.
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post #71890 of 72815 Old 07-31-2014, 04:42 PM
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Hello guys, quick question about Aydyssey. If I will run Audyssey on Denon X4000 I will match sub 75db before calibrating system. Then when is all done and I want to adjust volume for bass what to do? Can I increase volume on sub (now is -19) or on AVR?
If I will adjust volume on sub will this meet up Audyssey set up?

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Post-Audyssey, you always use the sub trim in the AVR to adjust sub volume. If you change the gain on the sub, you'll have to re-run Audyssey as its filters will become invalid.
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post #71892 of 72815 Old 07-31-2014, 04:52 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by retro124 View Post
Hello guys, quick question about Aydyssey. If I will run Audyssey on Denon X4000 I will match sub 75db before calibrating system. Then when is all done and I want to adjust volume for bass what to do? Can I increase volume on sub (now is -19) or on AVR?
If I will adjust volume on sub will this meet up Audyssey set up?
Always best to adjust volume on AVR. Its easier to return to "reference" from "preference".
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post #71893 of 72815 Old 07-31-2014, 04:55 PM
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Originally Posted by Alan P View Post
Post-Audyssey, you always use the sub trim in the AVR to adjust sub volume. If you change the gain on the sub, you'll have to re-run Audyssey as its filters will become invalid.
Ok but if I will rerun Audyssey again I will not match 75db in beginning and leave it like I raise it right?

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post #71894 of 72815 Old 07-31-2014, 04:55 PM
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Originally Posted by Alan P View Post
Post-Audyssey, you always use the sub trim in the AVR to adjust sub volume. If you change the gain on the sub, you'll have to re-run Audyssey as its filters will become invalid.
But Alan, that's not true. Adjusting a channel trim (speaker or sub) will not have any effect on the filters set by Audyssey.
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post #71895 of 72815 Old 07-31-2014, 04:56 PM
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Originally Posted by mogorf View Post
Always best to adjust volume on AVR. Its easier to return to "reference" from "preference".
How much is safe for sub to add in db? maybe 3 or even more?

I think when I run Audyssey sub was set -19db and receiver was set -6db I believe on both subs

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post #71896 of 72815 Old 07-31-2014, 04:56 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alan P View Post
Post-Audyssey, you always use the sub trim in the AVR to adjust sub volume. If you change the gain on the sub, you'll have to re-run Audyssey as its filters will become invalid.
Not technically true. The filters are perfectly valid -- they are independent of the SPL. The reason to change it in the processor (as opposed to the sub) is so that you can always return to the exact "reference" setting later.
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post #71897 of 72815 Old 07-31-2014, 04:58 PM
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Originally Posted by retro124 View Post
How much is safe for sub to add in db? maybe 3 or even more?
Depends on how much headroom your sub has. You could boost 10db if the subs can handle the additional SPL.
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post #71898 of 72815 Old 07-31-2014, 05:01 PM
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Originally Posted by batpig View Post
Depends on how much headroom your sub has. You could boost 10db if the subs can handle the additional SPL.
Dual PC12-Pluses from SVS, just want to make sure what is safe for sub.
So if I want after Audyssey set up subs little higher I will increase volume only on AVR?

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post #71899 of 72815 Old 07-31-2014, 05:02 PM
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Originally Posted by mogorf View Post
But Alan, that's not true. Adjusting a channel trim (speaker or sub) will not have any effect on the filters set by Audyssey.
Quote:
Originally Posted by batpig View Post
Not technically true. The filters are perfectly valid -- they are independent of the SPL. The reason to change it in the processor (as opposed to the sub) is so that you can always return to the exact "reference" setting later.
I stand corrected!
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post #71900 of 72815 Old 07-31-2014, 05:08 PM
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Originally Posted by retro124 View Post
Dual PC12-Pluses from SVS, just want to make sure what is safe for sub.
So if I want after Audyssey set up subs little higher I will increase volume only on AVR?
Yes, please.

Welcome to Audyssey world.

FYR, here's what I do. With my sub set by Audyssey to -6 dB I always leave it there for movies, yet for music I up it to taste, typically 2-4 dB higher. Older recordings ('60s/ '70s) may need even more. YMMV.

Enjoy your system!

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post #71901 of 72815 Old 07-31-2014, 05:10 PM
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I stand corrected!
Pat on the shoulder!
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post #71902 of 72815 Old 07-31-2014, 05:10 PM
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Originally Posted by mogorf View Post
Yes, please.

Welcome to Audyssey world.
So if AVR is set up now -6db can I go close to 0 or even over it is still safe for sub?

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post #71903 of 72815 Old 07-31-2014, 05:17 PM
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So if AVR is set up now -6db can I go close to 0 or even over it is still safe for sub?
AVR will take care of that. Say you go up to +12 dB on the sub trim (max. on my Denon) it will not allow you to turn up MV (Master Volume) more than +2 or + 3 dB. So just feel safe.
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post #71904 of 72815 Old 07-31-2014, 05:32 PM
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Originally Posted by mogorf View Post
AVR will take care of that. Say you go up to +12 dB on the sub trim (max. on my Denon) it will not allow you to turn up MV (Master Volume) more than +2 or + 3 dB. So just feel safe.
Thank you sir will play with it tonight.

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post #71905 of 72815 Old 07-31-2014, 05:34 PM
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Thank you sir will play with it tonight.
More than welcome.
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post #71906 of 72815 Old 07-31-2014, 05:48 PM
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Originally Posted by mogorf View Post
So, after a little intermezzo and to remain on topic, it should be clear by now that speaker/driver design engineers can not take a phenomenon called "room modes" into account during their R&D stage coz it's simply an unknown factor for them. What room the speakers will be put into varies a lot, depends on room shape and dimensions, yet the best that can be done is already done in the maker's anechoic chambers during the test period when it comes to preparing the spec sheet of a given speaker box.

From hereon it is the end-user who may care (or not care) about acoustical room treatments and about electronic EQ'ing of the room-speaker interaction in order to make his/her system sound the best.

Hope this helps.
The articles I linked to show very clearly that speaker designers can, and do, take room modes (which are caused by reflections of course) into account when designing certain designs. Those designs are designed with nulls which are intended to minimise those same reflections.

This is very clear in the Linkwitz and hifizine articles. It isn't all that unusual - many designs are intended, for example, to be placed close to room boundaries: the designer knows that this is the likely placement for the speaker he is designing and he takes that into account when shaping the frequency response. Googling Roy Alllison will yield further information on that. I have even owned open baffle speaker designs myself in the past, which again were specifically designed around real-world room factors.

The fact that the designer doesn't know the specifics of the room the speaker will be used in isn’t a barrier to designing speakers that are intended, by their very design, to combat modes.

If the designer puts drivers in an open baffle to create a dipole speaker (various members have raised questions in this thread about how Audyssey copes with such designs BTW) then when viewed from the front the drivers are pushing towards you and when viewed from the rear, the drivers are pushing away from you. The front and back waves are in opposite phase, so they will cancel where they meet and this will create a null at the side of the speaker baffle. This design combats width modes which are caused by bass reflecting off the left and right (side) walls - a very clear example of how a speaker designer can design a speaker to combat room modes, and without requiring any specific knowledge of the room in which the speakers are installed.

There is a huge amount of information about this available on the internet in the numerous articles on speaker design.

Whether Audyssey will work effectively with such speakers is another issue of course and one which has been raised in this thread in the past.
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post #71907 of 72815 Old 07-31-2014, 05:50 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by retro124 View Post
Hello guys, quick question about Aydyssey. If I will run Audyssey on Denon X4000 I will match sub 75db before calibrating system. Then when is all done and I want to adjust volume for bass what to do? Can I increase volume on sub (now is -19) or on AVR?
If I will adjust volume on sub will this meet up Audyssey set up?
This FAQ answer has all the info you need:

f)4. If I want to run my subs a little 'hot' where should I make the changes?
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post #71908 of 72815 Old 07-31-2014, 05:58 PM
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Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post
The articles I linked to show very clearly that speaker designers can, and do, take room modes (which are caused by reflections of course) into account when designing certain designs. Those designs are designed with nulls which are intended to minimise those same reflections.

This is very clear in the Linkwitz and hifizine articles. It isn't all that unusual - many designs are intended, for example, to be placed close to room boundaries: the designer knows that this is the likely placement for the speaker he is designing and he takes that into account when shaping the frequency response. Googling Roy Alllison will yield further information on that. I have even owned open baffle speaker designs myself in the past, which again were specifically designed around real-world room factors.

The fact that the designer doesn't know the specifics of the room the speaker will be used in isn’t a barrier to designing speakers that are intended, by their very design, to combat modes.

If the designer puts drivers in an open baffle to create a dipole speaker (various members have raised questions in this thread about how Audyssey copes with such designs BTW) then when viewed from the front the drivers are pushing towards you and when viewed from the rear, the drivers are pushing away from you. The front and back waves are in opposite phase, so they will cancel where they meet and this will create a null at the side of the speaker baffle. This design combats width modes which are caused by bass reflecting off the left and right (side) walls - a very clear example of how a speaker designer can design a speaker to combat room modes, and without requiring any specific knowledge of the room in which the speakers are installed.

There is a huge amount of information about this available on the internet in the numerous articles on speaker design.

Whether Audyssey will work effectively with such speakers is another issue of course and one which has been raised in this thread in the past.
the atmos speakers Pioneer is releasing for rooms with flat ceilings to reflect off on the front page of AVS atm is another obvious example to add to your list - obviously the 1st reflection off the ceiling will need to be eq'd as if its the source of sound in this instance.
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Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post
The articles I linked to show very clearly that speaker designers can, and do, take room modes (which are caused by reflections of course) into account when designing certain designs. Those designs are designed with nulls which are intended to minimise those same reflections.
Again, room modes are specifics of a given room, their frequencies are derived from room dimensions (W&H&D) and are not known by designers. Room modes are there even if there are no speakers in the room. Full stop.

Quote:
This is very clear in the Linkwitz and hifizine articles. It isn't all that unusual - many designs are intended, for example, to be placed close to room boundaries: the designer knows that this is the likely placement for the speaker he is designing and he takes that into account when shaping the frequency response.
The design engineer doesn't know where we are going to put out speakers, nor is he concerned about it. Full stop.

Quote:
Googling Roy Alllison will yield further information on that. I have even owned open baffle speaker designs myself in the past, which again were specifically designed around real-world room factors.
Real world rooms vary more than there are stars in the night sky. Full stop.

Quote:
The fact that the designer doesn't know the specifics of the room the speaker will be used in isn’t a barrier to designing speakers that are intended, by their very design, to combat modes.
Not true. Speaker designers do not combat modes. It's not their job. It's your job and my job when we put the speaker in our particular rooms. Full stop.

Quote:
If the designer puts drivers in an open baffle to create a dipole speaker (various members have raised questions in this thread about how Audyssey copes with such designs BTW) then when viewed from the front the drivers are pushing towards you and when viewed from the rear, the drivers are pushing away from you. The front and back waves are in opposite phase, so they will cancel where they meet and this will create a null at the side of the speaker baffle. This design combats width modes which are caused by bass reflecting off the left and right (side) walls - a very clear example of how a speaker designer can design a speaker to combat room modes, and without requiring any specific knowledge of the room in which the speakers are installed.
Not true, yet not relevant to the discussion.

Quote:
There is a huge amount of information about this available on the internet in the numerous articles on speaker design.
Info is vague, the Innernet is endless.

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Whether Audyssey will work effectively with such speakers is another issue of course and one which has been raised in this thread in the past.
True.
@DrDon and markrubin. Are we on topic this time? May we carry on?
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hey guys since i am upgrading i am going to give my current system to my brother.

its a denon 1712 plus andrew jones fs51s, c22 and bs22 set. also bic f12.

my question is when i run audyssey at his place. do i need to do a reset on the avr? or just run audyssey again?
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Reply Receivers, Amps, and Processors

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Audyssey , Receivers Amplifiers , Kef Kht1005 2se 5 1 Subwoofer Satellite System With C4 Subwoofer Gloss White , 5 6 7 1 7 2 Or 8 1 8 2 One Or Two Subwoofer Compatible 16 Banana Post 2 Rca Speaker Wall Plate For H
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