"Official" Audyssey thread (FAQ in post #51779) - Page 2399 - AVS Forum
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post #71941 of 73223 Old 08-09-2014, 04:51 AM
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Originally Posted by garygarrison View Post
I agree. Bozak Concert Grands would look so odd out in the middle of the room, that, surely, they would have voiced them to sound good against a wall. Also, when they were designed, virtually nobody put their speakers out in a room.

The most obvious case of a manufacturer depending on room boundries when designing a speaker would be Klipsch, in designing the Klipschorn. It absolutely needs to be in a room corner or in an artificial corner. Klipsch has a special revolving door quasi-anechoic chamber with a trihedral wooden corner built in, along with a bit of a ceiling. Some EV models also benefit from being in a corner.
Quite. The Klipsch example is a perfect example of how speakers can be, and are, designed to take into account the room. There is no need at all for the speaker designer to 'know the particular room', as has been mistakenly stated in the thread, and the example you give is absolute proof of that.
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post #71942 of 73223 Old 08-09-2014, 08:09 PM
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Hi guys, couple quick questions for you.


I got new Klipsch tower Icons (KF-28s and KC-25 center) for my front stage (LCR) replacing the AJ pioneers, so much more efficient speakers. When I ran Audyssey Multi XT it set the front towers to large. I got the KF-28s so dual 8" woofers. I also have dual RW-12d subs so my first questions is:


1. Should I leave the front towers to large, or change to small and set to 80hz x-over?
2. If I set them to small and 80hz crossover, will that mess up how they integrate with the subs? since I am changing what Audyessy multi XT set?
3. Since the Klipsch are so much more efficient, Audyessy set them to about -6.0 dB all across the front. For music listening, can I just turn Audyessy off in the settings and then turn it back of for movie watching and all setting will remain? Or what is the best way to get that gain back on the front stage for music listening?


Thanks so much.
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post #71943 of 73223 Old 08-10-2014, 03:20 AM
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Originally Posted by mgrotel View Post
Hi guys, couple quick questions for you.


I got new Klipsch tower Icons (KF-28s and KC-25 center) for my front stage (LCR) replacing the AJ pioneers, so much more efficient speakers. When I ran Audyssey Multi XT it set the front towers to large. I got the KF-28s so dual 8" woofers. I also have dual RW-12d subs so my first questions is:


1. Should I leave the front towers to large, or change to small and set to 80hz x-over?
2. If I set them to small and 80hz crossover, will that mess up how they integrate with the subs? since I am changing what Audyessy multi XT set?
3. Since the Klipsch are so much more efficient, Audyessy set them to about -6.0 dB all across the front. For music listening, can I just turn Audyessy off in the settings and then turn it back of for movie watching and all setting will remain? Or what is the best way to get that gain back on the front stage for music listening?
This is covered pretty fully in the FAQ:

c)3. I have big tower speakers at the front. Shouldn't I set these to Large'?

c)2. Why do I often see advice to raise the Crossovers to 80Hz?

You can turn Audyssey on and off at will without losing any settings.
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post #71944 of 73223 Old 08-10-2014, 03:44 AM
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Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post
This is covered pretty fully in the FAQ:

c)3. I have big tower speakers at the front. Shouldn't I set these to Large'?

c)2. Why do I often see advice to raise the Crossovers to 80Hz?

You can turn Audyssey on and off at will without losing any settings.


Awesome, thank you. I read those FAQs a while back but did not remember that. Thanks so much.
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post #71945 of 73223 Old 08-10-2014, 04:28 AM
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Originally Posted by mgrotel View Post
Awesome, thank you. I read those FAQs a while back but did not remember that. Thanks so much.

You are very welcome! Enjoy!
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post #71946 of 73223 Old 08-10-2014, 09:54 AM
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Originally Posted by mgrotel View Post
Hi guys, couple quick questions for you.


I got new Klipsch tower Icons (KF-28s and KC-25 center) for my front stage (LCR) replacing the AJ pioneers, so much more efficient speakers. When I ran Audyssey Multi XT it set the front towers to large. I got the KF-28s so dual 8" woofers. I also have dual RW-12d subs so my first questions is:


1. Should I leave the front towers to large, or change to small and set to 80hz x-over?
2. If I set them to small and 80hz crossover, will that mess up how they integrate with the subs? since I am changing what Audyessy multi XT set?
3. Since the Klipsch are so much more efficient, Audyessy set them to about -6.0 dB all across the front. For music listening, can I just turn Audyessy off in the settings and then turn it back of for movie watching and all setting will remain? Or what is the best way to get that gain back on the front stage for music listening?


Thanks so much.
I have one additional comment on recapturing gain and whether to turn Audyssey off for music. You should surely experiment, but in general, Audyssey will be very helpful for both movies and music. If I understand your gain question, the -6db settings across the front are fine. If you want more total volume, just use your master volume control. If you want more volume just from the front three, you have several options including increasing the individual levels post Audyssey (won't affect your calibration, but will affect the implementation of DEQ, so check the FAQ on that one); or better, experiment with something like the Dimension control in PLII. Most of the surround modes offer some method of concentrating sound more to the front or rear.

I am guessing that you were just thinking that the -6db is too low, which it isn't, but if there is something specific to the front that you hear and want to tweak, there are a number of ways to do it without interfering with your Audyssey calibration. Bottom line: if you have a good calibration, you shouldn't need to turn off Audyssey.
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post #71947 of 73223 Old 08-10-2014, 04:44 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mthomas47 View Post
I have one additional comment on recapturing gain and whether to turn Audyssey off for music. You should surely experiment, but in general, Audyssey will be very helpful for both movies and music. If I understand your gain question, the -6db settings across the front are fine. If you want more total volume, just use your master volume control. If you want more volume just from the front three, you have several options including increasing the individual levels post Audyssey (won't affect your calibration, but will affect the implementation of DEQ, so check the FAQ on that one); or better, experiment with something like the Dimension control in PLII. Most of the surround modes offer some method of concentrating sound more to the front or rear.

I am guessing that you were just thinking that the -6db is too low, which it isn't, but if there is something specific to the front that you hear and want to tweak, there are a number of ways to do it without interfering with your Audyssey calibration. Bottom line: if you have a good calibration, you shouldn't need to turn off Audyssey.
Thanks for the additional information. I previously had the Pioneer AJ series LCR, but when I wanted to blast the music sometimes, I listen loud, the amp would get so hot it turned itself off one time. I have a Denon 2112 with 90W per channel. I attributed this to the low sensitivity of the pioneers (87 or so) and the 6ohm rating. So now I have the Klipsch Icons, which are rated at 98 for sensitivity. When Audyssey lowers my front stage by 6 dBs, this sort of negates the higher volume I wanted to achieve with the more efficient speakers.


So, what I have found works is, for loud music listening, I can use "stereo" or "multi channel stereo" modes and it seems to give me back that 6dBs from the front stage. Then switch back to PL II when I put a bluray in. Your comment did prompt a couple questions from me though.


You said this: "increasing the individual levels post Audyssey (won't affect your calibration, but will affect the implementation of DEQ..."


What is DEQ and where can I set the levels without it affecting my calibration? After I run the calibration, the individual speaker levels I am changing are adjusting the levels on the calibration as far as I know.


And what is this? "Dimension control in PLII"


Thanks
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post #71948 of 73223 Old 08-10-2014, 05:13 PM
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Dynamic EQ; to listen late @ night without disturbing the babies and the lady.

The channel levels can be individually/manually adjusted from your remote control, and the level of DEQ can be adjusted from the audio setup menu. ...Medium is generally the accepted level.

Dimension Control for PLII is simply the level of dimension you like in your room; simply experiment with it and set it where you're happy.

EDIT: I meant Dynamic Volume. Sorry, after all those years I still get confused sometimes.

Last edited by NorthSky; 08-11-2014 at 01:57 PM. Reason: Edit
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post #71949 of 73223 Old 08-10-2014, 05:26 PM
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Thanks, where can I adjust this dimension PL II control?
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post #71950 of 73223 Old 08-10-2014, 05:37 PM
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Originally Posted by NorthSky View Post
Dynamic EQ, to listen late @ night without disturbing the babies and the lady.
This sounds like Dynamic volume to me. Right?
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post #71951 of 73223 Old 08-10-2014, 05:42 PM
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In the Audio Adjust Submenu. ------ • PLIIx/Neo:6

* Dynamic Volume is different: It's for a steady volume level between the movie and the commercials when watching TV, and from all the various channels.

EDIT: DynV: For late night listening.

Last edited by NorthSky; 08-11-2014 at 05:15 PM. Reason: Edit
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post #71952 of 73223 Old 08-10-2014, 05:56 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mgrotel View Post
This sounds like Dynamic volume to me. Right?
Dynamic EQ and Dynamic Volume are different. The FAQ has excellent descriptions of both and some helpful tips for how to use DEQ. It's fairly complicated to condense in a single post. If you haven't read the FAQ in a while it would be a worthwhile refresher.

PLII has controls in the music mode which control the center width, the dimension (front emphasis versus back emphasis) and panorama (a wrap around effect). If Denon implements PLII in the standard way, Dimension has a default setting of 3. If you reduce the setting to 2, or 1, it will transfer more information to the surrounds. If you increase the setting to 4-7, it will emphasize the front/center speakers. You can experiment to find the setting you like. As long as you enjoy PLII for movies as well, it is an easy way to maneuver back and forth, as your AVR will automatically default to your music settings when you go from TV/ movies to music, and vice versa. Your owners manual should have some info on this, but I think I hit the high spots.
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post #71953 of 73223 Old 08-10-2014, 06:37 PM
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I understand they are different, but he was getting EQ and volume mixed up. Volume uses the day, evening, midnight settings, which is for watching a movie late at night when you don't want some parts being a lot louder than others. He mixed that up with DEQ.
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post #71954 of 73223 Old 08-10-2014, 06:44 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NorthSky View Post
In the Audio Adjust Submenu. ------ • PLIIx/Neo:6
I have no such option under audio adjust menu. Maybe my Denon 2112 is getting a tad dated.


And D. Volume is what you described, to keep loud parts quiet at night. Hence the day, evening, midnight settings.


DEQ is for adjusting gain on certain frequencies as volume is changed from reference levels. It has settings measures in dB levels from reference.


Just wanted to clear that up for others reading. As said, the FAQ does a great job of explaining.


I am still interested in these PLIIx options that I do not see on my menu.
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post #71955 of 73223 Old 08-10-2014, 09:09 PM
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Originally Posted by mthomas47 View Post
Dynamic EQ and Dynamic Volume are different. The FAQ has excellent descriptions of both and some helpful tips for how to use DEQ. It's fairly complicated to condense in a single post. If you haven't read the FAQ in a while it would be a worthwhile refresher.

PLII has controls in the music mode which control the center width, the dimension (front emphasis versus back emphasis) and panorama (a wrap around effect). If Denon implements PLII in the standard way, Dimension has a default setting of 3. If you reduce the setting to 2, or 1, it will transfer more information to the surrounds. If you increase the setting to 4-7, it will emphasize the front/center speakers. You can experiment to find the setting you like. As long as you enjoy PLII for movies as well, it is an easy way to maneuver back and forth, as your AVR will automatically default to your music settings when you go from TV/ movies to music, and vice versa. Your owners manual should have some info on this, but I think I hit the high spots.
Ok, I found the Dimension, that helped a lot. Thanks. I had to be in a certain mode for the avr to allow me to adjust it or even look at it. For music, I wanted only the front stage playing, but if the surrounds play a little, that is fine too, and this accomplishes that. I can just leave it in PLIIx now, and only have to switch from music to movie.


I feel like I need to run the subs really hot for music, which I play though an aux cable from my phone. Then still hot, but not as hot, for movies. FYI I guess. Thanks all for the help.
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post #71956 of 73223 Old 08-10-2014, 09:14 PM
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Sorry, I didn't know that you have a high-end Denon receiver. ...I thought you had an Onkyo one.
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post #71957 of 73223 Old 08-11-2014, 02:03 AM
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Originally Posted by NorthSky View Post
Sorry, I didn't know that you have a high-end Denon receiver. ...I thought you had an Onkyo one.
Oh no worries, I think I have it figured out. Thanks for your help.


I think Audyssey has my surrounds too hot for movie watching, so I am going to turn down the gain on them some. I just got done watching Divergent and at some points I felt like all I could hear were the surrounds, or maybe that was just a really good immersive sounding feeling. I just don't want the rears to overpower, shouldn't the majority of the sound seem like its coming from the front stage?
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post #71958 of 73223 Old 08-11-2014, 03:10 AM
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Originally Posted by mthomas47 View Post
I have one additional comment on recapturing gain and whether to turn Audyssey off for music. You should surely experiment, but in general, Audyssey will be very helpful for both movies and music. If I understand your gain question, the -6db settings across the front are fine. If you want more total volume, just use your master volume control. If you want more volume just from the front three, you have several options including increasing the individual levels post Audyssey (won't affect your calibration, but will affect the implementation of DEQ, so check the FAQ on that one); or better, experiment with something like the Dimension control in PLII. Most of the surround modes offer some method of concentrating sound more to the front or rear.

I am guessing that you were just thinking that the -6db is too low, which it isn't, but if there is something specific to the front that you hear and want to tweak, there are a number of ways to do it without interfering with your Audyssey calibration. Bottom line: if you have a good calibration, you shouldn't need to turn off Audyssey.
Remember that when Audyssey sets the trims it is aiming to set your system to Reference Level. That is at 0dB on the MV, your system will play (if it is capable of it) 85dB average, 105dB peak and 115dB peak (LFE) (for movies). You are not 'losing' anything with a setting of -6dB on the speaker trim. If you want it to play louder, turn up the Master Volume!

mthomas is correct that altering the trims does not negate in any way the Audyssey calibration. But it can affect Dynamic EQ as he says.

Here are some FAQ answers that may be useful to you:

a)3. I keep reading about Reference Level'. What is it?

e)1. Is it OK to change the trim levels Audyssey sets?

g)2. What is Dynamic EQ?
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post #71959 of 73223 Old 08-11-2014, 03:41 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mgrotel View Post

I think Audyssey has my surrounds too hot for movie watching, so I am going to turn down the gain on them some. I just got done watching Divergent and at some points I felt like all I could hear were the surrounds, or maybe that was just a really good immersive sounding feeling. I just don't want the rears to overpower, shouldn't the majority of the sound seem like its coming from the front stage?
Do you have Dynamic EQ switched on? It is a known failing of DEQ that it can overboost the surround channels and of the most common complains in this thread. Unfortunately, there is nothing you can do to fix this properly. Best advice is to set the system to the level you usually listen at and then turn down the trims of the surround channels by a couple of dB or so. That is a better solution, IMO, than disabling DEQ altogether.
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post #71960 of 73223 Old 08-11-2014, 08:40 AM
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Originally Posted by mgrotel View Post
Ok, I found the Dimension, that helped a lot. Thanks. I had to be in a certain mode for the avr to allow me to adjust it or even look at it. For music, I wanted only the front stage playing, but if the surrounds play a little, that is fine too, and this accomplishes that. I can just leave it in PLIIx now, and only have to switch from music to movie.


I feel like I need to run the subs really hot for music, which I play though an aux cable from my phone. Then still hot, but not as hot, for movies. FYI I guess. Thanks all for the help.
You are very welcome. I'm glad that worked for you. A lot of people like to run their subs a few decibels hot with Audyssey.

As Keith said, DEQ is designed to slightly emphasize the surrounds. Given the fact that you like a stronger front soundstage for music, and feel that DEQ is over-boosting your surrounds for movies, lowering the trim levels on the surrounds by a couple of decibels might be a really good workaround to achieve both objectives.
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post #71961 of 73223 Old 08-11-2014, 09:37 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mgrotel View Post
I think Audyssey has my surrounds too hot for movie watching, so I am going to turn down the gain on them some. I just got done watching Divergent and at some points I felt like all I could hear were the surrounds, or maybe that was just a really good immersive sounding feeling. I just don't want the rears to overpower, shouldn't the majority of the sound seem like its coming from the front stage?
Another general advice for first time Audyssey users is to calibrate and use it "as is" for a couple of days or even for a week without tweaking. Some were not used to hearing the surrounds in their previous systems and now the presence of sounds (effects) coming from the sides may be rather new. Also there are those who like to have the majority of the sounds coming from the front LCR stage while surrounds only adding a kinda ambience effect.

Worth to try to see how your ears adapt to the new setup and if not, then do the tweaking.

Preference vs. reference....
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post #71962 of 73223 Old 08-11-2014, 09:55 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post
Remember that when Audyssey sets the trims it is aiming to set your system to Reference Level. That is at 0dB on the MV, your system will play (if it is capable of it) 85dB average, 105dB peak and 115dB peak (LFE) (for movies). You are not 'losing' anything with a setting of -6dB on the speaker trim. If you want it to play louder, turn up the Master Volume!

mthomas is correct that altering the trims does not negate in any way the Audyssey calibration. But it can affect Dynamic EQ as he says.

Here are some FAQ answers that may be useful to you:

a)3. I keep reading about Reference Level'. What is it?

e)1. Is it OK to change the trim levels Audyssey sets?

g)2. What is Dynamic EQ?
Thanks, but I am a little confused on how adjusting the trim levels does NOT affect the calibration. I honestly do not understand how it cannot affect it. For example, in an extreme case, if I set the front right speaker to run 10dBs hotter than the calibration set it, then when watching a movie, it would sound terrible. How is that not affecting the calibration?

thanks
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post #71963 of 73223 Old 08-11-2014, 09:57 AM
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I will try and cut back the surrounds about 2 dBs each, I have a feeling that will be better. Thanks all.
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post #71964 of 73223 Old 08-11-2014, 10:02 AM
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Originally Posted by mgrotel View Post
Thanks, but I am a little confused on how adjusting the trim levels does NOT affect the calibration. I honestly do not understand how it cannot affect it. For example, in an extreme case, if I set the front right speaker to run 10dBs hotter than the calibration set it, then when watching a movie, it would sound terrible. How is that not affecting the calibration?

thanks
To be precise with the wording, adjusting the channel trims does not alter the filter frequency response set by MultEQ for a given channel. Altough it will affect the loundess curves set by DynamicEQ.
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post #71965 of 73223 Old 08-11-2014, 10:08 AM
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I am sure I will get some backlash...after running Audyssey, turn off Dynamic EQ and set all channels to 75dbs using an SPL meter if you have one (leave Audyssey on). This made a major difference in my room but then again I have a dedicated room. I do use DEQ for stereo listing as it sounds amazing but not for Movies/TV/Video Games.

If you don't like it then you can always reset your AV back to your original Audyssey setting with DEQ. No harm no foul.

Just another option to try...or preference

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I will try and cut back the surrounds about 2 dBs each, I have a feeling that will be better. Thanks all.



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post #71966 of 73223 Old 08-11-2014, 10:09 AM
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Ok, thanks.
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post #71967 of 73223 Old 08-11-2014, 10:17 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NorthSky View Post
Dynamic EQ, to listen late @ night without disturbing the babies and the lady.

The channel levels can be individually/manually adjusted from your remote control, and the level of DEQ can be adjusted from the audio setup menu. ...Medium is generally the accepted level.

Dimension Control for PLII is simply the level of dimension you like in your room; simply experiment with it and set it where you're happy.
Quote:
Originally Posted by mgrotel View Post
This sounds like Dynamic volume to me. Right?

Yes, you got it right and he got it wrong. Dynamic Volume is for not disturbing babies and ladies.

Dynamic EQ is what keeps tonal balance and surround impression steady regardless of volume level. It certainly helps at lower volume levels by preventing the sound from becoming thin and weak with inaudible surrounds, but it doesn't prevent explosions from being loud.

Others have provided some good suggestions but I would also mention that you can adjust the Reference Level Offset for Dynamic EQ which tones down its boost. If you think your surrounds are a little "hot" with movies that's what I would try first, and then if you want a little more low end oomph you can bump the subs a few dB to compensate.

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post #71968 of 73223 Old 08-11-2014, 10:22 AM
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Originally Posted by mgrotel View Post
Thanks, but I am a little confused on how adjusting the trim levels does NOT affect the calibration. I honestly do not understand how it cannot affect it. For example, in an extreme case, if I set the front right speaker to run 10dBs hotter than the calibration set it, then when watching a movie, it would sound terrible. How is that not affecting the calibration?

thanks
The way I read what you've written, you're conflating two different types of calibration: sound level calibration and Audyssey's room response (frequency) calibration. The first changes, but the second does not.

Changing the sound level (gain) of a particular speaker channel does not change Audyssey's room response calibration for it. In other words, the relative gains of that channel's different frequencies (the room response calibration) don't change when you adjust the over-all gain of that channel. The amplitudes of all of the frequencies change simultaneously by the same number of dB.

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post #71969 of 73223 Old 08-11-2014, 10:25 AM
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Thanks for the additional information. I previously had the Pioneer AJ series LCR, but when I wanted to blast the music sometimes, I listen loud, the amp would get so hot it turned itself off one time. I have a Denon 2112 with 90W per channel. I attributed this to the low sensitivity of the pioneers (87 or so) and the 6ohm rating. So now I have the Klipsch Icons, which are rated at 98 for sensitivity. When Audyssey lowers my front stage by 6 dBs, this sort of negates the higher volume I wanted to achieve with the more efficient speakers.
Just to be clear and emphasize this again -- you are not "negating" ANYTHING by having the trim levels set lower. It doesn't rob you of power or anything of the sort. It's just the digital trim level needed to get your speakers to play at the specific reference volume. Remember (as others pointed out above) that Audyssey isn't calibrating your system to balance relatively, it's also trying to get your speakers to play at the same ABSOLUTE level. The more efficient Klipsch speakers need far less power to play at that volume so the receiver trims them down.

Just to make it clear with an example with easy math -- let's say your Pioneer speakers needed a +4dB trim and your Klipsch speakers need a -6dB trim. This means that the Klipsch are 10dB (4 minus -6) more sensitive than the Pios. The decibel scale is logarithmic -- a 10dB increase requires TEN TIMES more power. So that means to achieve a specific volume level with the Klipsch the receiver only has to use one-tenth the power it needed with the Pios. So setting the trim lower due to much more efficient speakers isn't robbing you of power, it's ADDING HEADROOM.

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post #71970 of 73223 Old 08-11-2014, 10:32 AM
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Got it, thanks.
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