"Official" Audyssey thread (FAQ in post #51779) - Page 2402 - AVS Forum
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post #72031 of 72409 Old 08-12-2014, 10:51 AM
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Hey guys quick question, is dynamic eq fully active when dynamic volume is off? What exactly is turned off when dynamic volume is off?

(In terms of rear speaker volume correction and all that.)

Sent from my d801/20e kdz.

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post #72032 of 72409 Old 08-12-2014, 10:58 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by porschedrifter View Post
Hey guys quick question, is dynamic eq active when dynamic volume is off?

(In terms of rear speaker volume correction and all that.)

Sent from my d801/20e kdz.
Yes, DynEQ is active with or without DynVol.

Signal flow with DynVol "ON" is like this:

MultEQ -> DynVol -> DynEQ

Without DynVol:

MultEQ -> DynEQ, provoded you have MultEQ and DynEQ "ON".
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Last edited by mogorf; 08-12-2014 at 11:04 AM.
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post #72033 of 72409 Old 08-12-2014, 11:09 AM
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Hi everybody, I've got a couple questions for you. I posted them in another thread, but I guess it was more of a frustrated rant wall of text (sorry about that if anybody read it).

I've gone from a Denon 1910, to a Denon X2000, and now a Marantz SR7007. I sent the X2000 back because all I could achieve was ear bleeding brightness running XT. After some posts here, I figured it was a defective mic or a bunk receiver, so I stepped up to the Marantz for the known warmth. I'm having the same issue with the Marantz. This was not a problem with the 1910 (MultEQ).

1. Mic placement, ear height vs. back of the couch. I've been running the 8 positions as suggested in the Audyssey FAQ at ear height. I've started with the 1st position centered and about 12" from the back of the couch which is about 4-6" higher than the mic. Then ran the other 7 positions at the same height keeping within 12" of each other.

I'm running a 5.1 system and read that it was unnecessary to raise the mic above the back of the couch unless you have rear speakers. Is this true, or do you think I'd have better results raising the mic?

2. My fairly small room should not be extremely problematic except for one piece of furniture. The room is carpeted with a large rug in the center. All walls are covered with paintings or wood carvings. Windows are covered with curtains. The one piece of furniture that may be a major issue is a large glass top coffee table (4.5' x 2.5'). It's got to stay, the one thing my wife has asked not to move. So, I was wondering if anybody has any ideas of something to put on top of the table that might absorb some of the reflections? I've got a runner covering a little less than half, but I don't think it's enough.

Would it be better to remove the table, run Audyssey, and then put the table back?

Any ideas of what to try next would be greatly appreciated.
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post #72034 of 72409 Old 08-12-2014, 11:18 AM
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Getting a "bright" result means that Audyssey didn't hear the higher frequencies very well (so it turned them up), or that it heard too much of the lower frequencies (so it turned them down, leaving the higher frequencies relatively louder).

Are your speakers toed in to point toward the main listening position?

That often helps the microphone to hear the tweeters better and can tame the brightness somewhat.

How tight a microphone placement pattern are you using?

If it's spread out, so the microphone is most often way-off-axis of the tweeters, that would result in the higher frequencies often not being detected well and thus being amplified more. Placing all 8 of the microphone positions close together around the main listening position sometimes can help.

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post #72035 of 72409 Old 08-12-2014, 11:18 AM
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spurious duplicate post, even though I only clicked once. *grump*

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post #72036 of 72409 Old 08-12-2014, 11:27 AM
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You could also try making sure the Audyssey mic is at tweeter level.
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post #72037 of 72409 Old 08-12-2014, 11:30 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by o CUBBY o View Post
Hi everybody, I've got a couple questions for you. I posted them in another thread, but I guess it was more of a frustrated rant wall of text (sorry about that if anybody read it).

I've gone from a Denon 1910, to a Denon X2000, and now a Marantz SR7007. I sent the X2000 back because all I could achieve was ear bleeding brightness running XT. After some posts here, I figured it was a defective mic or a bunk receiver, so I stepped up to the Marantz for the known warmth. I'm having the same issue with the Marantz. This was not a problem with the 1910 (MultEQ).

1. Mic placement, ear height vs. back of the couch. I've been running the 8 positions as suggested in the Audyssey FAQ at ear height. I've started with the 1st position centered and about 12" from the back of the couch which is about 4-6" higher than the mic. Then ran the other 7 positions at the same height keeping within 12" of each other.

I'm running a 5.1 system and read that it was unnecessary to raise the mic above the back of the couch unless you have rear speakers. Is this true, or do you think I'd have better results raising the mic?

2. My fairly small room should not be extremely problematic except for one piece of furniture. The room is carpeted with a large rug in the center. All walls are covered with paintings or wood carvings. Windows are covered with curtains. The one piece of furniture that may be a major issue is a large glass top coffee table (4.5' x 2.5'). It's got to stay, the one thing my wife has asked not to move. So, I was wondering if anybody has any ideas of something to put on top of the table that might absorb some of the reflections? I've got a runner covering a little less than half, but I don't think it's enough.

Would it be better to remove the table, run Audyssey, and then put the table back?

Any ideas of what to try next would be greatly appreciated.
You don't want to remove the table and then run Audyssey and put it back.

b)3. Should I move anything out of the room before running Audyssey?

If the table has to stay, and it may or may not be the source of your problem, you could cover it with a thick blanket or some books or anything that might act as an absorber.

You can easily check if the table is the problem. Remove it, run Audyssey, listen and see if the problem has gone away. If it has, the table is the problem. If it hasn't, something else is.

Also take a look at this part of the FAQ too:

a)9. Why are my high frequencies 'bright' or 'harsh' since running Audyssey?


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post #72038 of 72409 Old 08-12-2014, 12:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Selden Ball View Post
Getting a "bright" result means that Audyssey didn't hear the higher frequencies very well (so it turned them up), or that it heard too much of the lower frequencies (so it turned them down, leaving the higher frequencies relatively louder).

Are your speakers toed in to point toward the main listening position?

That often helps the microphone to hear the tweeters better and can tame the brightness somewhat.

How tight a microphone placement pattern are you using?

If it's spread out, so the microphone is most often way-off-axis of the tweeters, that would result in the higher frequencies often not being detected well and thus being amplified more. Placing all 8 of the microphone positions close together around the main listening position sometimes can help.
The speakers are not toed in, which unfortunately is not really an option in the room. I've also read the opposite...toeing them out could reduce the highs. Would it be possible to toe them in for the calibration, and then put them back? I do realize that the Audyssey FAQ recommends leaving the room exactly as it is for calibration...not removing or moving furniture. Also, rerunning the calibration whenever anything new is introduced. I have read through the Audyssey FAQ and have followed the instruction to the T, except for things that are not possible in my situation (toe in, couch against the wall). I have also spent months now reading success stories of people who broke the "rules". Basically I'm looking for possible ways to maybe trick Audyssey into lowering the highs.

I am keeping the positions tight. 12" to the left and right, two feet in front and parallel, and positions 7 & 8 in between (couch is against the wall).

The mic is positioned exactly to the FR & FL tweeters, which is also exactly ear height when sitting on the couch.

The reason I asked about the height of the mic (ear height vs. above the couch back) is maybe the couch is absorbing the highs and Audyssey is over correcting. The Audyssey FAQ states to raise the mic above the back of the couch, but doesn't really say whether this is necessary in a 5.1 setup where the mic doesn't need to "hear" the rear speakers.

I have removed the table after Audyssey, and the sound seemed slightly better. Haven't tried running Audyssey without the table. I'll probably try tonight. I've got to keep the Audyssey runs to a minimum at this point. After dozens of runs, my wife is getting a bit cross eyed.
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post #72039 of 72409 Old 08-12-2014, 12:25 PM
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It can't hurt to try different heights: although the "ideal" microphone positions are at ear height, some people have reported that including higher (and lower) positions produce better results in some circumstances.

Hopefully you're saving the calibrations to a file on a computer. That way you could restore the best one later. The Web interface, which includes save and restore options, is described in your receiver's owner's manual. You need to be patient, though. A save (or restore) takes about 10 minutes or so.

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post #72040 of 72409 Old 08-12-2014, 01:18 PM
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Originally Posted by o CUBBY o View Post
The speakers are not toed in, which unfortunately is not really an option in the room. I've also read the opposite...toeing them out could reduce the highs. Would it be possible to toe them in for the calibration, and then put them back? I do realize that the Audyssey FAQ recommends leaving the room exactly as it is for calibration...not removing or moving furniture. Also, rerunning the calibration whenever anything new is introduced. I have read through the Audyssey FAQ and have followed the instruction to the T, except for things that are not possible in my situation (toe in, couch against the wall). I have also spent months now reading success stories of people who broke the "rules". Basically I'm looking for possible ways to maybe trick Audyssey into lowering the highs.

I am keeping the positions tight. 12" to the left and right, two feet in front and parallel, and positions 7 & 8 in between (couch is against the wall).

The mic is positioned exactly to the FR & FL tweeters, which is also exactly ear height when sitting on the couch.

The reason I asked about the height of the mic (ear height vs. above the couch back) is maybe the couch is absorbing the highs and Audyssey is over correcting. The Audyssey FAQ states to raise the mic above the back of the couch, but doesn't really say whether this is necessary in a 5.1 setup where the mic doesn't need to "hear" the rear speakers.

I have removed the table after Audyssey, and the sound seemed slightly better. Haven't tried running Audyssey without the table. I'll probably try tonight. I've got to keep the Audyssey runs to a minimum at this point. After dozens of runs, my wife is getting a bit cross eyed.
If the speakers aren't toed-in toward the MLP, I would bet that is at least partly the source of your problem. In my room, with my speakers, the tweeter/ microphone alignment is pretty important to avoid over-boosted highs. I have always had my fronts toed-in, but I found that even a couple of inches made a difference in my case. If you have ear bleeding highs, you may have to resort to some sort of unconventional methodology. So, let me stick my neck out and say that toeing the speakers in for the test so that Audyssey won't over-boost them, and then restoring them afterwards may be worth a try. I'm not sure what you could lose by trying. XT is known to be a little aggressive sometimes with treble.

If that doesn't work, or seems to cause some other problem, there is something else you could try. Your Marantz has tone controls which specifically apply to your front speakers. You can always try rolling-off a few decibels using the treble control. That won't interfere with your Audyssey calibration, but will interfere with the implementation of DEQ. You can use either DEQ or the tone controls, but not both at the same time.

Everything is a tradeoff. But if you have tried two different receivers (with their respective microphones) and are pretty sure that your room/speaker geometry is to blame for the excessive highs, then you may want to consider either or both of the options above.


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post #72041 of 72409 Old 08-12-2014, 02:21 PM
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Speaker Toe-in

If you do decide to try your idea of toeing-in and then restoring your speakers, I will be very interested in your results. I would expect that to help with the over-boosted highs, if in fact that is the culprit. But I also wonder if you may find yourself then needing to increase the trim levels on your fronts. If so, no problem. As you know from reading the last couple of pages, and the FAQ, that won't affect the calibration.

I was also wondering if even a slight toe-in might be possible; not pointed directly at the MLP, but just biased very slightly inward? You never know if you might be just barely outside the horizontal dispersion radius of your tweeters. As I noted, I was surprised that just a modest adjustment (about 2" more) to mine made a difference. You never know, something subtle might pass WAF. It will be interesting to hear how you get on.


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post #72042 of 72409 Old 08-12-2014, 02:29 PM
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Originally Posted by Bigham16 View Post
Hmmm...Not sure where to look for the a figure relative to 0dB. I have the Denon 4520 and a Gen 2 Emotiva XPA-5 which is rated at 200 watts for each channel @ 8 ohms. I have Golden Ear Triton 2 tower speakers with a 91dB efficiency.

I would hope all my gear could preform what you are asking and not give me "bleeding of the ears"

60dBs in my room gives me that feeling of being loud but not loud at the same time feeling.

I will definitely try your suggestion on the reference level offset and see what happens.
When the MV is set at 5 or 6 dB below reference, the dialog should sound plausible in volume (SPL). If a large sample of dialog doesn't sound natural in volume during a given movie, turn the whole system (MV) up or down, until it's right. Almost all filmmakers key the music and effects relative to a realistic, usually pleasant, dialog level. That might well be in the range of 70 to 80 dB (excluding shouting or very soft, dramatic delivery or whispering). The peaks in both music and effects will be much louder. If you take a SPL meter ("c" "fast") into a symphony concert, down close, you may measure very brief peaks as high as 115 dB (Paul W. Klipsch), or even higher with a large orchestra and the likes of Beethoven, Mahler, or Moussorgsky. THX measured the normal peaks in The Empire Strikes Back at 108 dB, and the bass peaks at 110 dB, in a 70 mm 6 channel stereo equipped theater. That was with the sound reproducing equipment of 34 years ago. The industry has now decided that, at reference level, full scale will be 105 dB, with subwoofer full scale at 115 dB, from microphone position. These peaks occur fairly rarely, but can be quite dramatic. All this should be without ear strain or unpleasantness (unless the filmmakers want it to be unpleasant). The government standards for tolerable SPL levels in industry do not apply here, because these are brief peaks, but, FYI, the Feds think workers can deal with an average of 115 dB from machinery that does not have a steady output for 15 minutes (naturally, long term exposure has a much lower limit, I think about 80 dB). Rock bands, and other amplified music that is composed of more or less steady loud sound (wailing electric guitars) constitute an exception to these principles, because it is not just the peaks that are that loud, but prolonged, sustained tones. Ear damage and speaker damage can result. Once in a great while there is a movie that really pushes the duration of the peaks, and they are also an exception. I usually run movies at 5 dB below reference, and found myself turning down the MV for a few moments during the early part of The Grey. Good, low distortion speakers, and adequate, clipping free, amplification should allow almost all loud passages to come through without discomfort.
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post #72043 of 72409 Old 08-12-2014, 02:55 PM
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So if I am reading correctly, I should turn DEQ on (with default Audyssey settings) then try and listen to a movie at 0dB (relative) and it will not sound too loud (for the most part) and clear? But if I set it to say -20dB (relative) then it will sound not as good as 0dB?

Because with DEQ on, each time I watched a movie I had to turn it down due to it being sooo loud in the bass and surrounds, then I couldn't hear any dialog, then turn it back down for action scenes, then back up for dialog... This was about 60 MV on the absolute scale. With the way I have it configured now, I don't have to do anything to the volume for every movie I have played so far. It really sounds fantastic: enveloping surround sound, clear dialog for all movies, front stage is present, and great clean even bass. This doesn't happen for me with DEQ on.

Thanks again for the note and I will at least try and set it to reference level and see what happens

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Originally Posted by garygarrison View Post
When the MV is set at 5 or 6 dB below reference, the dialog should sound plausible in volume (SPL). If a large sample of dialog doesn't sound natural in volume during a given movie, turn the whole system (MV) up or down, until it's right. Almost all filmmakers key the music and effects relative to a realistic, usually pleasant, dialog level. That might well be in the range of 70 to 80 dB (excluding shouting or very soft, dramatic delivery or whispering). The peaks in both music and effects will be much louder. If you take a SPL meter ("c" "fast") into a symphony concert, down close, you may measure very brief peaks as high as 115 dB (Paul W. Klipsch), or even higher with a large orchestra and the likes of Beethoven, Mahler, or Moussorgsky. THX measured the normal peaks in The Empire Strikes Back at 108 dB, and the bass peaks at 110 dB, in a 70 mm 6 channel stereo equipped theater. That was with the sound reproducing equipment of 34 years ago. The industry has now decided that, at reference level, full scale will be 105 dB, with subwoofer full scale at 115 dB, from microphone position. These peaks occur fairly rarely, but can be quite dramatic. All this should be without ear strain or unpleasantness (unless the filmmakers want it to be unpleasant). The government standards for tolerable SPL levels in industry do not apply here, because these are brief peaks, but, FYI, the Feds think workers can deal with an average of 115 dB from machinery that does not have a steady output for 15 minutes (naturally, long term exposure has a much lower limit, I think about 80 dB). Rock bands, and other amplified music that is composed of more or less steady loud sound (wailing electric guitars) constitute an exception to these principles, because it is not just the peaks that are that loud, but prolonged, sustained tones. Ear damage and speaker damage can result. Once in a great while there is a movie that really pushes the duration of the peaks, and they are also an exception. I usually run movies at 5 dB below reference, and found myself turning down the MV for a few moments during the early part of The Grey. Good, low distortion speakers, and adequate, clipping free, amplification should allow almost all loud passages to come through without discomfort.



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post #72044 of 72409 Old 08-12-2014, 03:07 PM
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Thank you all so much for the advise! New things to try means all is not lost. It's been a struggle for months now. I really love the Marantz SR7007 for everything it offers (plus it's darn good lookin'), so i'd really like to make it work.

I'm really surprised that I didn't get positive results upgrading from MultEQ to XT. Although, the bass is absolutely more controlled.

I'll try the toe in and report back. I'm not sure if permanently toeing in slightly will be doable. I've played around with it in the past, and it looks really odd in the room. So, this is not just the WAF, it's me too. However, with the HT system I'd always prefer function over form...maybe I could figure out a way to make it look good.

The other concern I'd have is we have another couch which sits mostly outside the sound circle. Would toeing in the speakers result in really poor sound for those seats? We have friends come over for movie nights on a pretty regular basis.
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post #72045 of 72409 Old 08-12-2014, 03:29 PM
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How about a pic or two of your room Cubby?
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post #72046 of 72409 Old 08-12-2014, 03:54 PM
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How about a pic or two of your room Cubby?
Sure, I don't have any photographs at the moment but here is a mockup of the room...
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post #72047 of 72409 Old 08-12-2014, 04:33 PM
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So if I am reading correctly, I should turn DEQ on (with default Audyssey settings) then try and listen to a movie at 0dB (relative) and it will not sound too loud (for the most part) and clear? But if I set it to say -20dB (relative) then it will sound not as good as 0dB?

Because with DEQ on, each time I watched a movie I had to turn it down due to it being sooo loud in the bass and surrounds, then I couldn't hear any dialog, then turn it back down for action scenes, then back up for dialog... This was about 60 MV on the absolute scale. With the way I have it configured now, I don't have to do anything to the volume for every movie I have played so far. It really sounds fantastic: enveloping surround sound, clear dialog for all movies, front stage is present, and great clean even bass. This doesn't happen for me with DEQ on.

Thanks again for the note and I will at least try and set it to reference level and see what happens
I found Gary's post informative, and I don't want to speak for him, but I don't think he is telling you that you are "supposed" to like listening at reference volumes. Our hearing is too individualistic for that. I know people who carry ear plugs with them when they attend symphony concerts for use depending on where they are sitting and what is playing. (I'm thinking Mahler or Wagner, for instance.) I don't know that they hear better than anybody else, but their hearing is more sensitive to loud noises. It's probably something more neurological than anatomical; something to do with the way our brains process or interpret noise. FWIW, I have noted that a number of people on this thread don't like playing their systems at very high (reference) volumes, and it's not all just distortion. It's also something to do with how well we tolerate loud noises.

I've never liked extremely loud noises--not in an IMAX theater or anywhere else. Funny for a guy who once did some competitive handgun shooting, and was partial to 44 magnums, but there it is. When I shot, I always tried to use both earplugs and the best headphones I could afford. Sometimes I forgot the earplugs and that was okay. But some of the people I shot with just didn't seem to care about the noise as much as I did; not just from the standpoint of potential hearing damage, but in terms of physical discomfort, as well.

So, by all means try reference if you like, but don't feel that you are missing something if you don't. Our brains process sounds and sights and smells and tastes in different ways. Probably boring really, otherwise.
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post #72048 of 72409 Old 08-12-2014, 05:45 PM
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1st Measurment Q?

Does the 1st measurement only deal with distance, delays and levels?


There is no filters created during the 1st measurement correct?

Murray Thompson

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post #72049 of 72409 Old 08-12-2014, 06:22 PM
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Quote:
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It is not 80 dB, just 80 on a scale 0-100. The other scale is calibrated in dB which goes from like -80 dB to 0 dB reference level and a bit up like to +15-18 dB.
Yep, that's it. Although, an increase of 1 on the absolute scale is equivalent to an increase of 1 db on the relative scale, the 0-98 are not decibels. It looks like I was reading something that wasn't there. Thanks.
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post #72050 of 72409 Old 08-12-2014, 07:52 PM
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Originally Posted by RapalloAV View Post
Does the 1st measurement only deal with distance, delays and levels?


There is no filters created during the 1st measurement correct?
Incorrect. Only the first position is used to set distance and levels, but ALL the positions are used to calculate EQ filters and low freq extension (which is then passed to the AVR to set xovers).

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post #72051 of 72409 Old 08-12-2014, 09:53 PM
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Originally Posted by batpig View Post
Incorrect. Only the first position is used to set distance and levels, but ALL the positions are used to calculate EQ filters and low freq extension (which is then passed to the AVR to set xovers).
So the 1st position is also creating filters, interesting I thought it wasn't.

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post #72052 of 72409 Old 08-13-2014, 10:35 AM
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Originally Posted by RapalloAV View Post
So the 1st position is also creating filters, interesting I thought it wasn't.
The batpig is right - all mic positions have filters associated with them. It's just that the No 1 mic position is the only one that measures levels and delays. (Incidentally, distance and delays are the same thing).


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post #72053 of 72409 Old 08-13-2014, 11:00 AM
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It would be a shame if the 1st reading (actual listening position) didn't use filters.
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post #72054 of 72409 Old 08-13-2014, 11:09 AM
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It would be a shame if the 1st reading (actual listening position) didn't use filters.
Quite. That's MY seat!!


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post #72055 of 72409 Old 08-13-2014, 11:20 AM
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It would be a shame if the 1st reading (actual listening position) didn't use filters.
Actually it would be more beneficial.
...With quality loudspeakers (hi-res), quality gear, quality recordings, and quality room (good acoustics).

Audyssey was created for lesser room acoustics. ...And digital filtering introduces artifacts which are a form of another type of distortion; intermodulation noise, quantization errors, downsampling music degradation, digital jitter introduction, phase shifts, ...

In essence it robs the music of its emotional impact. ...By adding another different emotional take, through digital filtration.

Bests, ~ Robert § (Bob)

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Last edited by NorthSky; 08-13-2014 at 11:47 AM. Reason: Added up (the missing link, the essential)
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post #72056 of 72409 Old 08-13-2014, 11:23 AM
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It would be a shame if the 1st reading (actual listening position) didn't use filters.
Actually, it is not the listening position that is using filters but its the speaker channels.

Audyssey collects raw data from each mic position (yes, including the 1st one at the MLP) for each speaker channel and the algorithm calulates one final filter for each speaker and one for the subwoofer channel.

For example, for a 5.x system Audyssey will calculate 6 filters. 1 for each speaker and one for the .x channel. I say "x" because only one filter is calulated for the subwoofer channel regardless of how many subs are in your system.

Cheers, Feri


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post #72057 of 72409 Old 08-13-2014, 11:35 AM
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Originally Posted by NorthSky View Post

...And digital filtering introduces artifacts which are a form of another type of distortion; intermodulation noise.
NS, you are right, IM noise is not a good thing.

Meantime there are a lot of different distortions in out HT systems, harmonic distortion, phase distortion, group delay distortion, etc.

But worry not, in modern electronics these distortions are way below the level that would have an effect on overall SQ.

Or are you experiencing intermodulation noise when watching a film or listening to music on your HT gear?

Cheers, Feri


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post #72058 of 72409 Old 08-13-2014, 11:52 AM
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Feri, when you look @ my sig what do you see?

* I am experiencing a boost in clarity, but a clinical (hospital smell) type of clarity, and that clarity was not really what the doctor ordered, but just a simple prescription from the pharmacist over the counter. ...Like codeine for example. There is something disconnected, unemotional about clinical rendition, in music listening.

Yes the bass is tighter, good thing, almost disjointed from the rest of the band playing. ...It's just a perception I feel sometimes, an illusion, deeper in my soul.

A manual PEQ might do just as well.

Bests, ~ Robert § (Bob)

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post #72059 of 72409 Old 08-13-2014, 12:03 PM
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that was about 3 miles over my head, lol
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post #72060 of 72409 Old 08-13-2014, 12:08 PM
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Feri, when you look @ my sig what do you see?

* I am experiencing a boost in clarity, but a clinical (hospital smell) type of clarity, and that clarity was not really what the doctor ordered, but just a simple prescription from the pharmacist over the counter. ...Like codeine for example. There is something disconnected, unemotional about clinical rendition, in music listening.

Yes the bass is tighter, good thing.

A manual PEQ might do just as well.
NS, I thought we were discussing IM noise and not your sig. My Q was: "are you experiencing intermodulation noise when watching a film or listening to music on your HT gear?"

How do you address IM distortion with a manual PEQ?

Cheers, Feri


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