"Official" Audyssey thread (FAQ in post #51779) - Page 2403 - AVS Forum

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mogorf's Avatar mogorf
01:08 PM Liked: 135
post #72061 of 73256
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NorthSky View Post
Feri, when you look @ my sig what do you see?

* I am experiencing a boost in clarity, but a clinical (hospital smell) type of clarity, and that clarity was not really what the doctor ordered, but just a simple prescription from the pharmacist over the counter. ...Like codeine for example. There is something disconnected, unemotional about clinical rendition, in music listening.

Yes the bass is tighter, good thing.

A manual PEQ might do just as well.
NS, I thought we were discussing IM noise and not your sig. My Q was: "are you experiencing intermodulation noise when watching a film or listening to music on your HT gear?"

How do you address IM distortion with a manual PEQ?
garygarrison's Avatar garygarrison
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mthomas47 View Post
I found Gary's post informative, and I don't want to speak for him, but I don't think he is telling you that you are "supposed" to like listening at reference volumes. Our hearing is too individualistic for that. I know people who carry ear plugs with them when they attend symphony concerts for use depending on where they are sitting and what is playing. (I'm thinking Mahler or Wagner, for instance.) I don't know that they hear better than anybody else, but their hearing is more sensitive to loud noises. It's probably something more neurological than anatomical; something to do with the way our brains process or interpret noise. FWIW, I have noted that a number of people on this thread don't like playing their systems at very high (reference) volumes, and it's not all just distortion. It's also something to do with how well we tolerate loud noises.

I've never liked extremely loud noises--not in an IMAX theater or anywhere else. Funny for a guy who once did some competitive handgun shooting, and was partial to 44 magnums, but there it is. When I shot, I always tried to use both earplugs and the best headphones I could afford. Sometimes I forgot the earplugs and that was okay. But some of the people I shot with just didn't seem to care about the noise as much as I did; not just from the standpoint of potential hearing damage, but in terms of physical discomfort, as well.

So, by all means try reference if you like, but don't feel that you are missing something if you don't. Our brains process sounds and sights and smells and tastes in different ways. Probably boring really, otherwise.
Agreed.

BTW, I think IMAX's sound is overrated. While it is plenty loud, and would read that way on an SPL meter, it doesn't seem to have the frequency balanced impact of the old multichannel magnetic tracks (especially 70 mm, like Todd-AO). IMAX, so far, seems to be a bit bright, and lack mid-bass (perhaps). So, given that, I wouldn't want it any louder. So far, the best sounding IMAX may have been Fantasia 2000, but, oddly, the Beethoven lacked the proper impact. The Firebird sequence sounded just fine, though. I realize that the sound may vary quite a bit from IMAX theater to IMAX theater.
Niroe64's Avatar Niroe64
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Hey guys, I have a quick and simple question. I re-ran Audyssey in a new room and due to in-room response Audyssey set my surround "crossover" at 90 hz (usually get them at 60hz in other rooms). I know its not recommended to lower them but if I were to lower them to 80hz does audyssey cancel its filters all together for the whole system, just for those satellites, or just the ten hz on each speaker I lowered (because it obviously wouldn't have filtered those frequencies anyways)? Thanks!
mthomas47's Avatar mthomas47
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Quote:
Originally Posted by garygarrison View Post
Agreed.

BTW, I think IMAX's sound is overrated. While it is plenty loud, and would read that way on an SPL meter, it doesn't seem to have the frequency balanced impact of the old multichannel magnetic tracks (especially 70 mm, like Todd-AO). IMAX, so far, seems to be a bit bright, and lack mid-bass (perhaps). So, given that, I wouldn't want it any louder. So far, the best sounding IMAX may have been Fantasia 2000, but, oddly, the Beethoven lacked the proper impact. The Firebird sequence sounded just fine, though. I realize that the sound may vary quite a bit from IMAX theater to IMAX theater.
Your comment about Todd-AO dredged-up some old memories. We lived close enough to Denver when I was growing up to go to the Cooper Theater, one of the first and best Cinerama venues. Although I can only remember seeing one true Cinerama movie there (How The West Was Won), we saw a number of wonderful 70mm movies there including: Around The World In 80 Days, Fantasia, Ben Hur, El Cid, Lawrence Of Arabia. That was our first real exposure to first class 2.35 or 2.5 aspect ratio movies, and both the picture and sound quality were spectacular. I think I remember reading somewhere that they used the big Altec speakers in some of those theaters, but I may be mistaken.

With all the usual caveats about the unreliability of audio memory, particularly from so long ago, I would have to entirely agree with you. That theater had amazing sound at whatever volume levels, and some of those soundtracks got very loud. The several IMAX theaters I have been to are mainly very loud, although to be fair, I did think Skyfall had pretty good sound.
batpig's Avatar batpig
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Niroe64 View Post
Hey guys, I have a quick and simple question. I re-ran Audyssey in a new room and due to in-room response Audyssey set my surround "crossover" at 90 hz (usually get them at 60hz in other rooms). I know its not recommended to lower them but if I were to lower them to 80hz does audyssey cancel its filters all together for the whole system, just for those satellites, or just the ten hz on each speaker I lowered (because it obviously wouldn't have filtered those frequencies anyways)? Thanks!
When Audyssey pings each speaker, it creates a filter for the full frequency response of the speaker. That EQ filter is then tapered off above/below the measured -3dB points so that the speaker is not boosted below (or above) its limits.

So if Audyssey detects that your speaker rolls off at 87Hz, that's where it tapers off the EQ filters. It doesn't matter if you set the crossover at 40Hz, 80Hz, or 250Hz, that's where the EQ filter tapers off. So if you lower the crossover from 90Hz to 80Hz, you will simply "expose" a small hole in the response that doesn't have EQ filters applied.
Niroe64's Avatar Niroe64
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Quote:
Originally Posted by batpig View Post
When Audyssey pings each speaker, it creates a filter for the full frequency response of the speaker. That EQ filter is then tapered off above/below the measured -3dB points so that the speaker is not boosted below (or above) its limits.

So if Audyssey detects that your speaker rolls off at 87Hz, that's where it tapers off the EQ filters. It doesn't matter if you set the crossover at 40Hz, 80Hz, or 250Hz, that's where the EQ filter tapers off. So if you lower the crossover from 90Hz to 80Hz, you will simply "expose" a small hole in the response that doesn't have EQ filters applied.
Thanks! Exactly what I thought but just wanted to make sure. I had seen something online while looking for this information that simply said Audyssey would "cancel" its filters if you lower the crossovers and the vagueness of it threw me off.
batpig's Avatar batpig
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That's not vague. It's just wrong
NorthSky's Avatar NorthSky
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Better upping your x-overs than downing them; that way you don't lose any sleep (EQ).
garygarrison's Avatar garygarrison
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mthomas47 View Post
Your comment about Todd-AO dredged-up some old memories. We lived close enough to Denver when I was growing up to go to the Cooper Theater, one of the first and best Cinerama venues. Although I can only remember seeing one true Cinerama movie there (How The West Was Won), we saw a number of wonderful 70mm movies there including: Around The World In 80 Days, Fantasia, Ben Hur, El Cid, Lawrence Of Arabia. That was our first real exposure to first class 2.35 or 2.5 aspect ratio movies, and both the picture and sound quality were spectacular. I think I remember reading somewhere that they used the big Altec speakers in some of those theaters, but I may be mistaken.

With all the usual caveats about the unreliability of audio memory, particularly from so long ago, I would have to entirely agree with you. That theater had amazing sound at whatever volume levels, and some of those soundtracks got very loud. The several IMAX theaters I have been to are mainly very loud, although to be fair, I did think Skyfall had pretty good sound.
I heard (was it here?) that IMAX theaters used a customized Audyssey or Audyssey-like room correction. The ones I have been in (just 2) sound too bright to me.

Most of the theaters that were built (by Magna?) for Todd-AO had sound farmed out to Ampex, who in turn contracted with JBL to build gigantic custom speakers that used a combination of horn loading and bass reflex. Each channel used 4 - 15 inch front horn loaded woofers, and a big cellular midrange/tweeter. So, the 5 channels behind the screen used 20 woofers total. The surround channel usually used 1 - 15" woofer each, in a smaller, rear loaded, horn, but some theaters had more modest surrounds. Cinerama often used Altec, again with 4 woofers on each channel, across 5 behind the screen channels, plus two channels for surround. Both Cinerama and Todd-AO had either braced plywood wings between the speakers, or great surface area across the front of the speaker enclosure, that loaded the bass. The IMAX theaters I know of don't have the plywood, so that may be why they lack mid & upper bass, if that isn't just my imagination.
kbarnes701's Avatar kbarnes701
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Niroe64 View Post
Hey guys, I have a quick and simple question. I re-ran Audyssey in a new room and due to in-room response Audyssey set my surround "crossover" at 90 hz (usually get them at 60hz in other rooms). I know its not recommended to lower them but if I were to lower them to 80hz does audyssey cancel its filters all together for the whole system, just for those satellites, or just the ten hz on each speaker I lowered (because it obviously wouldn't have filtered those frequencies anyways)? Thanks!
c)4. Is it OK to change the Crossovers from Audyssey's recommendation?
kbarnes701's Avatar kbarnes701
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Quote:
Originally Posted by garygarrison View Post
I heard (was it here?) that IMAX theaters used a customized Audyssey or Audyssey-like room correction. The ones I have been in (just 2) sound too bright to me.
Same here. I love the huge screen but I hate the sound. I can’t ever remember seeing a movie in an IMAX theater and thinking "wow, the sound was great". And now we have an Atmos theater on my doorstep, I've pretty much given up on IMAX anyway.
mthomas47's Avatar mthomas47
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post
Same here. I love the huge screen but I hate the sound. I can’t ever remember seeing a movie in an IMAX theater and thinking "wow, the sound was great". And now we have an Atmos theater on my doorstep, I've pretty much given up on IMAX anyway.
Keith,

I guess we are a little off-topic, but since there isn't much other action anyway, I would love to hear your impressions of Atmos. Like yourself, I really enjoy the big IMAX screen, but I haven't seen and heard an Atmos theater yet.

Thanks,
Mike
RUR's Avatar RUR
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Transmogrified from another thread:
Quote:
Originally Posted by mogorf View Post
....Filter calculation and graph smoothing are two different animals, aren't they?
What I was addressing in the Atmos thread was not the "graph smoothing" in the predicted response, but the amount of smoothing which Audyssey applies to the measurements before filter calculation. This can and does vary between XT32 and earlier versions as evidenced by the measured filters shown by Keith and others to demonstrate how Audyssey XT32 has stopped "over-correcting" the HF. It's actually user-adjustable in Pro Trinnov gear from 1/12 octave to something like 3 octaves.
beastaudio's Avatar beastaudio
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NorthSky View Post
Feri, when you look @ my sig what do you see?

* I am experiencing a boost in clarity, but a clinical (hospital smell) type of clarity, and that clarity was not really what the doctor ordered, but just a simple prescription from the pharmacist over the counter. ...Like codeine for example. There is something disconnected, unemotional about clinical rendition, in music listening.

Yes the bass is tighter, good thing, almost disjointed from the rest of the band playing. ...It's just a perception I feel sometimes, an illusion, deeper in my soul.

A manual PEQ might do just as well.
I love this, and agree whole-heartedly.
kbarnes701's Avatar kbarnes701
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mthomas47 View Post
Keith,

I guess we are a little off-topic, but since there isn't much other action anyway, I would love to hear your impressions of Atmos. Like yourself, I really enjoy the big IMAX screen, but I haven't seen and heard an Atmos theater yet.

Thanks,
Mike
Mike, I have written a thorough review of my experience at the demo I attended at Dolby's London HQ in July - it is here:

'Ears on' experience of Atmos in a home theater, using Atmos-enabled speakers.'

And yesterday I attended a second demo at Dolby - I am in the process of writing up that review and will post it in the Atmos thread as soon as it is finished. It is much more technical in nature than the first review and I was fortunate to have a 30 minute one-to-one with two of Dolby's senior guys, so a lot of our questions will be answered in the second report.
mogorf's Avatar mogorf
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RUR View Post
Transmogrified from another thread:

What I was addressing in the Atmos thread was not the "graph smoothing" in the predicted response, but the amount of smoothing which Audyssey applies to the measurements before filter calculation. This can and does vary between XT32 and earlier versions as evidenced by the measured filters shown by Keith and others to demonstrate how Audyssey XT32 has stopped "over-correcting" the HF. It's actually user-adjustable in Pro Trinnov gear from 1/12 octave to something like 3 octaves.

Hi RUR,

IMHO, this is all about the case whether to EQ the HF region or not. I'm not familiar with Trinnov implementations but as I understand it Trinnov allows the enduser to decide on HF region EQ'ing or not and offers a solution to do it gradually.

Smoothing during filter calculations in this respect can be understood as applying a low pass filter to the signal during calculation of the filters.

Chris has always been an advocate of EQ'ing the whole audible frequency range coz in his school if there is anything to be EQ'ed it should be EQ'ed. Trinnov seems to represent another school letting the enduser tweak.
mthomas47's Avatar mthomas47
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post
Mike, I have written a thorough review of my experience at the demo I attended at Dolby's London HQ in July - it is here:

'Ears on' experience of Atmos in a home theater, using Atmos-enabled speakers.'

And yesterday I attended a second demo at Dolby - I am in the process of writing up that review and will post it in the Atmos thread as soon as it is finished. It is much more technical in nature than the first review and I was fortunate to have a 30 minute one-to-one with two of Dolby's senior guys, so a lot of our questions will be answered in the second report.
Thanks, Keith! I look forward to reading both reviews.
RUR's Avatar RUR
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mogorf View Post
Hi RUR,

IMHO, this is all about the case whether to EQ the HF region or not. I'm not familiar with Trinnov implementations but as I understand it Trinnov allows the enduser to decide on HF region EQ'ing or not and offers a solution to do it gradually.

Smoothing during filter calculations in this respect can be understood as applying a low pass filter to the signal during calculation of the filters.

Chris has always been an advocate of EQ'ing the whole audible frequency range coz in his school if there is anything to be EQ'ed it should be EQ'ed. Trinnov seems to represent another school letting the enduser tweak.
Feri, nothing I said in the Atmos thread pertained to HF cutoff of correction, but to how measurement smoothing before filter calculation could, in effect, "ignore" narrow variations, like the Atmos notch. All OBE as it turned out, as per Sanjay's observation and Dolby's reply.

FYI, Trinnov has many user adjustable parameters, but HF cutoff of correction isn't one of them - FIR filters are either "On" full-frequency, or they're "Off".
mogorf's Avatar mogorf
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RUR View Post
Feri, nothing I said in the Atmos thread pertained to HF cutoff of correction, but to how measurement smoothing before filter calculation could, in effect, "ignore" narrow variations, like the Atmos notch. All OBE as it turned out, as per Sanjay's observation and Dolby's reply.

FYI, Trinnov has many user adjustable parameters, but HF cutoff of correction isn't one of them - FIR filters are either "On" full-frequency, or they're "Off".
Thanks for your reply RUR.

What exactly do you mean by "measurement smoothing before filter calculation"?
kbarnes701's Avatar kbarnes701
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mthomas47 View Post
Thanks, Keith! I look forward to reading both reviews.
The new report from my second day at Dolby Labs is now posted.

The official Dolby Atmos thread (home theater version)
porschedrifter's Avatar porschedrifter
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Hey guys I have an interesting question. For me, I have 2eq and my main listening position is a couch with a high back, placed directly against the wall.

So when doing calibration, could the first mic position be exactly ear height close to wall back and the last two be 2ft above the couch back and 2ft away from the wall as per the guide?

My issue is if I do the measurements with all 3 mic spots 2ft high and 2ft forward, the distance measurements are all off.

Sent from my d801/20e kdz.
batpig's Avatar batpig
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Quote:
Originally Posted by porschedrifter View Post
Hey guys I have an interesting question. For me, I have 2eq and my main listening position is a couch with a high back, placed directly against the wall.

So when doing calibration, could the first mic position be exactly ear height close to wall back and the last two be 2ft above the couch back and 2ft away from the wall as per the guide?

My issue is if I do the measurements with all 3 mic spots 2ft high and 2ft forward, the distance measurements are all off.

Sent from my d801/20e kdz.

The rule of thumb is to avoid reflective surfaces like couch backs and walls. Plus with the couch against the back wall you have the issue of "bass buildup" at the boundary.

However, there is no need to have the mic 2 ft above the couch back in this situation. The only reason to elevate the mic above the couch back is if the couch back blocks "line of sight" between the mic and your surround speakers. If the couch is against the back wall I can't imagine that is happening. So given that your only concern is avoiding those boundaries.

What I would do is make the first mic position as close to your main listening position as possible, while keeping the mic 10-12" away from a reflective surface. So figure out where your head is at the MLP, and then scoot the mic forward a few inches until you have that kind of clearance from the back couch cushion. Then I would make the other two measurements maybe 6 inches forward and a foot or two to the left/right of the first one. So you make a little triangle with the three measurements, all of them at approximately ear height and surrounding your MLP while staying well in front of the back wall.
wse's Avatar wse
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post
Mike, I have written a thorough review of my experience at the demo I attended at Dolby's London HQ in July - it is here:

'Ears on' experience of Atmos in a home theater, using Atmos-enabled speakers.'

And yesterday I attended a second demo at Dolby - I am in the process of writing up that review and will post it in the Atmos thread as soon as it is finished. It is much more technical in nature than the first review and I was fortunate to have a 30 minute one-to-one with two of Dolby's senior guys, so a lot of our questions will be answered in the second report.
You convinced me to buy the Marantz SR7009 vs Yamaha Adventage RX-A3040 just because Marantz has Audyssey XT32
kbarnes701's Avatar kbarnes701
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wse View Post
You convinced me to buy the Marantz SR7009 vs Yamaha Adventage RX-A3040 just because Marantz has Audyssey XT32
Good choice! Enjoy!
Roger Dressler's Avatar Roger Dressler
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Selden Ball View Post
spurious duplicate post, even though I only clicked once. *grump*
Why not just delete it?
tezster's Avatar tezster
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Question - I replaced my Energy 10.3 sub with an SVS SB-2000 and re-ran Audyssey (I have a Denon X2000). Although I have limited floor space to work with, I'm able to run both subs if I stack them on top of each other. Since this means that the subs are co-located, I should theoretically be getting a +6db gain. Without re-running Audyssey, would I be accurate in assuming I need to reduce the LFE level by 6db to ensure I'm getting the calibrated LFE output level? Note that both the Energy and SVS subs calibrated very close to each other in terms the LFE level set by Audyssey: -8.5db for the SVS, and -9db for the Energy, with the gain set at the 12 o'clock position for both.
Alan P's Avatar Alan P
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Absolutely not, you need to re-run Audyssey.
Selden Ball's Avatar Selden Ball
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Roger Dressler View Post
Why not just delete it?
Because there's no "delete" button visible in my browser. I'm using Firefox with NoScript. It's currently blocking 12 of the 15 scripting sites that the forum uses. The delete button might be provided by one of those sites, I suppose.

*sigh* found it. I was expecting it to be in the main forum view, not in the editing view. I don't know how I've managed to overlook it for so long.

Thanks!
Gary J's Avatar Gary J
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If it is like AdBlock you can easily reload one time without blocking.
mthomas47's Avatar mthomas47
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post
The new report from my second day at Dolby Labs is now posted.

The official Dolby Atmos thread (home theater version)
Keith,

Great reviews of Dolby Atmos! Like a lot of other people, I particularly enjoyed your second, more in-depth review. I saw that you have already bought some new speakers. Have you also taken the plunge with an Atmos AVR yet? When you do, it will be interesting to read about your impressions of the Atmos/Audyssey interface.

Regards,
Mike
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