"Official" Audyssey thread (FAQ in post #51779) - Page 2406 - AVS Forum
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post #72151 of 72179 Old Yesterday, 02:08 PM
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All I gotta say is that I'm very happy I have a system/room/ears that are conducive to DynEQ...I couldn't listen without it at lower levels. It makes everything just sound so.....satisfying.
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post #72152 of 72179 Old Yesterday, 02:18 PM
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I guess we should be thanking Denon that we have options so we can all enjoy.

Now give us a processor that supports 13.2 so I can run 9.2.4 in my room. Oh, and add the wides into Dolby Surround, please...
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post #72153 of 72179 Old Yesterday, 02:19 PM
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Originally Posted by Bigham16 View Post
I guess we should be thanking Denon that we have options so we can all enjoy. Now give us a processor that supports 13.2 so I can run 9.2.4 in my room. Oh, and add the wides into Dolby Surround, please...
MARANTZ 8802 does that
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post #72154 of 72179 Old Yesterday, 02:23 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by markrubin View Post
Moderator

you know there has been a lot of frustration with this thread in that there are so many experts arguing over what many consider as minutia that many members are turned off and have left the thread.

Let me reiterate the purpose of this thread is to help members understand how to use and understand Audyssey: not for one exert to prove he knows more than another.

Thanks
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post #72155 of 72179 Old Yesterday, 02:25 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post
DSX also lowers the mains by 3dB too. Have you tried PLIIz (if you are only interested in Heights) or Neo:X (for Heights and Wides). IMO both do a far superior job to DSX.

Thanks for the tip kb. I'll have to give Neo:X an extended listen as I used it briefly before and was not impressed.
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post #72156 of 72179 Old Yesterday, 02:30 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post
DSX also lowers the mains by 3dB too. Have you tried PLIIz (if you are only interested in Heights) or Neo:X (for Heights and Wides). IMO both do a far superior job to DSX.
Just PLIIz, no Neo:X on my 3008. If I recall correctly, DSX sounded smoother and had better surround envelopment, less edgy than PLIIz.
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post #72157 of 72179 Old Yesterday, 02:37 PM
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Originally Posted by Bigham16 View Post
The small adjustments made a huge difference in my room. The center was a little on the light side for me and the sub's need a little more juice with DEQ off.

Pretty much what NorthSky said. The sub level is intolerable for ANY movie watching. I don't get the echo's but my entire front stage is drowned by the surrounds on ANY movie I watch with DEQ on.
You and I, we are on a very similar page from the same book. ...Perhaps a different chapter but it don't matter, same exact storyline.

Quote:
I even left DEQ on with original Audyssey measurements and turned the volume close to 0dB but it was just nasty loud.
-20dB is the sweet spot for movie watching in my room with DEQ off.
♦ Zero dB (0dB) is reference in our rooms (pretty much), and it can be quite loud.

♦ Minus twenty dB (-20dB) is peaceful level, very tolerable for all common mortals living on our planet.
...Background type of listening; where you can tell when movies are mixed too loud or not loud enough.
...And when it's good to raise the center channel by 3dB or so and the surrounds by 2dB or so (me, in my room). And when the going gets tough (explosions, mayhem, guns, grenades, tanks, cannons, ...), you can tell too about them movie mixes.

And no amount of dynamic range that you applied digitally via EQ is going to improve that; not for me, no way.

Best way to experience a Blu-ray movie (not all of them) is to listen to it @ the same volume level that it was mixed, recorded, and listened to by the sound recording/mixing engineer, with sometimes the music composer and the movie director (but not always).

...And no Dynamic Volume, no Dynamic EQ applied.

For lower volume levels below reference; applied anything your receiver has in it to your own personal taste and hearing preference. ...There are tons of ways to change the original sound; and one of them, or two, or more, might just be the one(s) that was/were made in heaven just for you.

More than anything else in life; suit your oneself first. ..Then you can share that happiness directly reflecting of/from you with everyone else around you; children, grand-children, wife, wives, mistress, mistresses, girlfriend, girlfriends, sisters, brothers, friends, family, families, ...everyone.
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post #72158 of 72179 Old Yesterday, 02:44 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by batpig View Post
Minor correction -- these graphs on Denon/Marantz models show the (rough approximation of the) frequency response CORRECTION being applied. They aren't the "after" graphs, they show a crude version of the boosts/cuts needed to meet the target curve. So they are actually more closely related to the "before" graph than the "after" graph -- if you mentally invert the correction graph you should see a rough approximation of the measured in-room response before correction.

That said, of course, as we all agree they are borderline useless especially if you don't understand what they mean.
But now we do understand. ...So they are less useless.
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post #72159 of 72179 Old Yesterday, 02:46 PM
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Wow, didn't know it was confirmed in the marantz 8802 for processing all 13 channels at once!! Hope they show the 8802 and the 7200(?) at CEDIA.

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Originally Posted by wse View Post
MARANTZ 8802 does that
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post #72160 of 72179 Old Yesterday, 02:50 PM
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Originally Posted by wse View Post
MARANTZ 8802 does that
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Originally Posted by Bigham16 View Post
Wow, didn't know it was confirmed in the marantz 8802 for processing all 13 channels at once!! Hope they show the 8802 and the 7200(?) at CEDIA.
As far as I know it has NOT been confirmed. I've seen WSE repeat the same thing in the Atmos thread but I have yet to see any evidence to support this.
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post #72161 of 72179 Old Yesterday, 02:54 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alan P View Post
All I gotta say is that I'm very happy I have a system/room/ears that are conducive to DynEQ...I couldn't listen without it at lower levels. It makes everything just sound so.....satisfying.
When something is wrong I question calibration procedure. Or a preference that is not reference.
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post #72162 of 72179 Old Yesterday, 02:55 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by markrubin View Post
Moderator, you know there has been a lot of frustration with this thread in that there are so many experts arguing over what many consider as minutia that many members are turned off and have left the thread. Let me reiterate the purpose of this thread is to help members understand how to use and understand Audyssey: not for one exert to prove he knows more than another. Thanks

Thank you just bought the Marantz SR7009 and am looking forward to Audyssey XT32 Yamaha YPAO was useless
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post #72163 of 72179 Old Yesterday, 03:01 PM
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Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post
Oh yes, as an (ex) advertising man, I'd really want those graphs!
You were a "Mad Man?" Is the TV series (Madmen) authentic?
I remember when I bought a Teac reel to reel that was advertized as having "hiss virtually below the limit of audibility." It hissed like a puff-adder in heat. I called Teac to complain, and they finally connected me with one of their engineers. He said, "Sometimes we have problems with our advertizing department."
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post #72164 of 72179 Old Yesterday, 03:02 PM
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Originally Posted by batpig View Post
As far as I know it has NOT been confirmed. I've seen WSE repeat the same thing in the Atmos thread but I have yet to see any evidence to support this.
http://www.avcesar.com/actu/id-14423...e-lav8801.html

"Sortie asymétrique Pre-Out 13.2 sur RCA"





Here you are : "En effet le nombre de sorties XLR pour les voies d’effets est augmenté, atteignant un total de treize canaux, auxquels il faut ajouter les deux pour les subwoofers indépendants."

http://www.cinenow.fr/articles/28854...rs-audio-video
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post #72165 of 72179 Old Yesterday, 03:05 PM
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2 Front
1 Center
2 Surround
2 Surround back
2 Surround Wide
2 Surround Height 1
2 Surround Height 2

and
2 Subwoofer
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post #72166 of 72179 Old Yesterday, 03:13 PM
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Originally Posted by Gary J View Post
When something is wrong I question calibration procedure. Or a preference that is not reference.
Yes, always question the user first, not the product's system.
...Humans are less than perfect, machines are generally superior.

Or, the masses are generally right, and any deviation from the masses is a deviation from the truth.
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post #72167 of 72179 Old Yesterday, 03:25 PM
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Originally Posted by NorthSky View Post
...
Best way to experience a Blu-ray movie (not all of them) is to listen to it @ the same volume level that it was mixed, recorded, and listened to by the sound recording/mixing engineer, with sometimes the music composer and the movie director (but not always).

...And no Dynamic Volume, no Dynamic EQ applied. ...
I totally agree with this, especially since you said "not all of them." A few -- very few -- BDs are outrageously loud, and need to be turned down quite a lot. An even smaller number of them are too soft and need to be turned up. Otherwise, I find that setting the volume at near Reference -- about 5 dB below -- is right for me, and lets me hear almost the SPL the filmmakers intended. I suspect the 5 dB deviation from Reference is because there are two little peaks in the room that Audyssey could not (or, at least, did not) get rid of -- one at 40 Hz, and a lesser one at about 400 Hz.

Since I listen at high SPL, DEQ would have little to contribute, but, whenever I've tried it, the sound seems worse. Without it, I get sound approx. as good (IMO) as in the best commercial theaters.
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post #72168 of 72179 Old Yesterday, 03:40 PM
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Originally Posted by NorthSky View Post
Feri, "pumping" is a very good term for me to describe what it sounds like. But for others it might have a different interpretation; just stay within the limits of the dictionary's definition and we're all on the same page.

It is severe enough for me to never use it, ever. I said it before; the overall sound is disconnected from the onscreen action, or it emphasizes it in the most peculiar and unpleasant way.
...Blu-ray movies with hi-res audio soundtracks; that's what I'm referring to here, to keep it very simple.
Bob, as I said before DEQ by theory can not cause "pumping" coz it does not do anything in and around that department. Agree?

You say "overall sound is disconnected from the onscreen action", which I can not but understand (with my limited English) as a lip-sync issue. Is that what you are experiencing?

Frankly speaking the issue you brought up here is quite peculiar (for me at least) coz if my memory serves me well, the "pumping" phenomenon has not been discussed in such details on this thread before. For the time being (apart from many other issues you've raised) I'd like to concentrate on "pumping" till a final conclusion (or the like) can be reached.

Should the Board here be able to get down to minute details of your query, you will surely benefit with a final solution, yet, another chapter may be added by Keith to the Audyssey FAQ for onward future reference.

Care to be a partner in this investigation? Thanks in advance.

Take care.
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post #72169 of 72179 Old Yesterday, 03:51 PM
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Feri - I'm assuming by "pumping" he means his sub is being over-driven, probably caused by too high of a sub trim/gain level in the first place....but I'm just guessing.

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post #72170 of 72179 Old Yesterday, 03:52 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wse View Post
http://www.avcesar.com/actu/id-14423...e-lav8801.html

"Sortie asymétrique Pre-Out 13.2 sur RCA"

Here you are : "En effet le nombre de sorties XLR pour les voies d’effets est augmenté, atteignant un total de treize canaux, auxquels il faut ajouter les deux pour les subwoofers indépendants."

http://www.cinenow.fr/articles/28854...rs-audio-video



2 Front
1 Center
2 Surround
2 Surround back
2 Surround Wide
2 Surround Height 1
2 Surround Height 2

and
2 Subwoofer
Everything is there; 13 channels, and 2 subwoofers ... good for 9.2.4

<<<>>> Here's my take on it: No confirmation yet that all thirteen channels will be operative simultaneously.
But! Because this flagship Marantz SSP (and the Denon flagship receiver) are going to be released next year;
it is my guess that they are working right now as we speak in them two units to make them work from all their 13 channels with Dolby Atmos in synchronicity with Audyssey MultEQ XT32, Platinum version, and all simultaneously.

* Simply put; it takes a little bit more time now to have Audyssey Calibrating and EQuing thirteen (fifteen) channel speakers and two subwoofers all separately for the very first time in history and in such them affordable consumer products. ...For a total of fifteen (seventeen) channels all together. ?
...In a non-professional audio component.

The most Audyssey had calibrated and equalized previously was thirteen channel speakers and two channel subwoofers (a total of fifteen). ...I believe, from a normal consumer product (not high-end). Yes, it can do a multitude of them, the sky is the limit, ...128,000 channels and more.

And because of the delay of these two flagship products, it is my believe that indeed they will have the capability to run a 9.2.4 surround sound system @ once.
{That's what they're working on right now.}

Only time will tell if my guess has any merit by itself... ...Early next year, 2015. ...Or perhaps we'll know officially just before this year's end.

Speculation is free.
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Last edited by NorthSky; Yesterday at 05:06 PM. Reason: *
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post #72171 of 72179 Old Yesterday, 04:02 PM
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Originally Posted by garygarrison View Post
I totally agree with this, especially since you said "not all of them".
A few -- very few -- BDs are outrageously loud, and need to be turned down quite a lot. An even smaller number of them are too soft and need to be turned up. Otherwise, I find that setting the volume at near Reference -- about 5 dB below -- is right for me, and lets me hear almost the SPL the filmmakers intended. I suspect the 5 dB deviation from Reference is because there are two little peaks in the room that Audyssey could not (or, at least, did not) get rid of -- one at 40 Hz, and a lesser one at about 400 Hz.

Since I listen at high SPL, DEQ would have little to contribute, but, whenever I've tried it, the sound seems worse. Without it, I get sound approx. as good (IMO) as in the best commercial theaters.
With 4,000+ Blu-ray titles in my collection I know that the volume levels could vary a lot.
But that's what I like about life; variations, versatility, variances, diversity.

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post #72172 of 72179 Old Yesterday, 04:31 PM
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Originally Posted by mogorf View Post
Bob, as I said before DEQ by theory can not cause "pumping" coz it does not do anything in and around that department. Agree?

You say "overall sound is disconnected from the onscreen action", which I can not but understand (with my limited English) as a lip-sync issue. Is that what you are experiencing?

Frankly speaking the issue you brought up here is quite peculiar (for me at least) coz if my memory serves me well, the "pumping" phenomenon has not been discussed in such details on this thread before. For the time being (apart from many other issues you've raised) I'd like to concentrate on "pumping" till a final conclusion (or the like) can be reached.

Should the Board here be able to get down to minute details of your query, you will surely benefit with a final solution, yet, another chapter may be added by Keith to the Audyssey FAQ for onward future reference.

Care to be a partner in this investigation? Thanks in advance.

Take care.
www.thefreedictionary.com/Pumping

Feri, did you ever use a dynamic compressor in your system (dbx type)?
Do you play electric guitars and use effect pedals? ...Flanger, sustain, tremolo, wah wah, distortion, delay, ...

Can you hear loud sounds and quieter sounds all together from several speakers coming all @ once to your ears?
Can you hear the effect of sound compression?
Can you feel different emotional impact from the same music as the master volume is turned up louder, and down, and then some more down, to almost a whisper?

You said that DEQ cannot cause pumping; I simply disagree with you.

* Disconnection from the onscreen action through surround sound comes from an imbalance between all channels. ...That is very simple to understand; improper balance, emphasis on some frequencies, on some channels, ...cause the front sound stage to collapse all over, disjointed from the ensemble.

You can try to find a solution to my sound perception, and I appreciate that. I am always ready to further my knowledge with more experiments and new gear.

Remember this too; what I hear in my own system @ home could be totally different than if it was you in my exact same seat. ...My musical background I am positively certain is different than yours.

So, yes, try anything you can think of, and share it here with us all. ...With me too. ...I am doing the exact same thing.

...And as long that the majority of active members and guests in this thread are cool with it; I'm all wide open.
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post #72173 of 72179 Old Yesterday, 04:36 PM
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Originally Posted by NorthSky View Post
You said that DEQ cannot cause pumping; I simply disagree with you.
Give reason please. Describe how DEQ causes pumping. Layman's is OK.
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post #72174 of 72179 Old Yesterday, 04:39 PM
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Originally Posted by Alan P View Post
Feri - I'm assuming by "pumping" he means his sub is being over-driven, probably caused by too high of a sub trim/gain level in the first place....but I'm just guessing.
...Compression, expansion, back to compression, back to expansion, ... pumping.
...From all the speakers, from all directions, low frequencies included. ...And mids too. And lack of clarity, details, as if the highs were disappearing in the background, behind moving clouds.
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post #72175 of 72179 Old Yesterday, 04:42 PM
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Originally Posted by mogorf View Post
Give reason please. Describe how DEQ causes pumping. Layman's is OK.
Because unlike you I experienced pumping effects. This is not science (I'm no scientist), this is what I hear.

* Feri, to help out: Google Dynamic Sound Equalization - Explanation and Causes | Principles & Acoustics | Hearing Effects

But take your time; there are many technical articles from some of the best people in the business - you will recognize some of them.

If you want real science, just goggle, what I just posted above. ...You'll have the real scientists in sound equalization, on dynamic compression, and much more on all the effects from various methods applied. ...Including the genre of Audyssey Dynamic EQualization.

Last edited by NorthSky; Yesterday at 05:18 PM. Reason: *
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Originally Posted by NorthSky View Post
Because unlike you I experienced pumping effects. This is not science, this is what I hear.
Thank you Sir, I think I'm gonna quietly bow out of this discussion. Farewell to Ya.
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post #72177 of 72179 Old Yesterday, 04:51 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wse View Post
http://www.avcesar.com/actu/id-14423...e-lav8801.html

"Sortie asymétrique Pre-Out 13.2 sur RCA"





Here you are : "En effet le nombre de sorties XLR pour les voies d’effets est augmenté, atteignant un total de treize canaux, auxquels il faut ajouter les deux pour les subwoofers indépendants."

http://www.cinenow.fr/articles/28854...rs-audio-video

Forgive me, I don't speak French, but (according to google) the translation I am seeing for your quote only refers to the number of pre-outs. The fact that there are 13.2 pre-outs is NOT proof that it can process 13 (non SW) channels SIMULTANEOUSLY. The Denon X4100W has 13.2 pre-outs but can only do NINE channels simultaneously.

Do you have something more specific that is evidence of the ability of 13.2 processing for SIMULTANEOUS output? The AV8802 is based on the Denon 7200 (as evidenced by the back panel photos) and that Denon model, again despite having 13.2 pre-outs, can only process 11 channels at a time.

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Originally Posted by mogorf View Post
Thank you Sir, I think I'm gonna quietly bow out of this discussion. Farewell to Ya.
You're very welcome, nice sharing with you Feri. ...Anytime. ...Enjoy the birds and the bees.
And never give up on what you deeply believe in life.

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post #72179 of 72179 Old Yesterday, 11:28 PM
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post #72180 of 72179 Old Yesterday, 11:45 PM
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Forgive me, I don't speak French, but (according to google) the translation I am seeing for your quote only refers to the number of pre-outs. The fact that there are 13.2 pre-outs is NOT proof that it can process 13 (non SW) channels SIMULTANEOUSLY. The Denon X4100W has 13.2 pre-outs but can only do NINE channels simultaneously.

Do you have something more specific that is evidence of the ability of 13.2 processing for SIMULTANEOUS output? The AV8802 is based on the Denon 7200 (as evidenced by the back panel photos) and that Denon model, again despite having 13.2 pre-outs, can only process 11 channels at a time.
I speak French (perfectly too); and your assessment is 100% correct.

* The Denon 7200 indeed seems to be limited to 7.1.4 (or 9.1.2).
The Marantz 8802; still up in the air. ...It depends. ...Same as the Denon 7200 for sure, but who knows what surprise might be transported/elevated by the next wind... Could 9.2.4 be implemented on time by beginning of next year, and before the 2nd gen of Dolby Atmos receivers and SSPs (Fall 2015, Winter 2016)?
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