"Official" Audyssey thread (FAQ in post #51779) - Page 2407 - AVS Forum
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post #72181 of 72197 Old Today, 03:42 AM
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Originally Posted by rickardl View Post
Just PLIIz, no Neo:X on my 3008. If I recall correctly, DSX sounded smoother and had better surround envelopment, less edgy than PLIIz.
It seems unlikely that DSX would give better surround envelopment when it is reducing the level of the surrounds by a full 3dB.
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post #72182 of 72197 Old Today, 03:46 AM
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Originally Posted by garygarrison View Post
You were a "Mad Man?" Is the TV series (Madmen) authentic?
LOL. Depends what you mean by authentic. It is based on real life in an ad agency but it is 'exaggerated'. Working in advertising is certainly the most fun you can have with your clothes on.


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I remember when I bought a Teac reel to reel that was advertized as having "hiss virtually below the limit of audibility." It hissed like a puff-adder in heat. I called Teac to complain, and they finally connected me with one of their engineers. He said, "Sometimes we have problems with our advertizing department."
You can’t get away with those sort of claims these days - there's too much regulation. What I'd say now, for that same RTR machine is "no tape machine has lower levels of hiss than the Teac XXX..." Meaningless, but sounds good
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post #72183 of 72197 Old Today, 03:49 AM
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Originally Posted by mogorf View Post
Should the Board here be able to get down to minute details of your query, you will surely benefit with a final solution, yet, another chapter may be added by Keith to the Audyssey FAQ for onward future reference.
'Pumping' is normally a term associated with tech like Dynamic Volume which compress dynamic range. I cannot recall anyone else ever having said that DEQ gives rise to a 'pumping' effect. I am happy to update the FAQ at any time, but this seems like a single, outlier case, so is best ignored IMO.
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post #72184 of 72197 Old Today, 03:53 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post
It seems unlikely that DSX would give better surround envelopment when it is reducing the level of the surrounds by a full 3dB.
It depends on what the surround level is without DSX... if that is 3dB too high with Dynamic EQ, then a 3dB reduction makes it perfect.
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post #72185 of 72197 Old Today, 04:07 AM
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Originally Posted by rickardl View Post
It depends on what the surround level is without DSX... if that is 3dB too high with Dynamic EQ, then a 3dB reduction makes it perfect.
Haha - good point! Two wrongs make a right!
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post #72186 of 72197 Old Today, 04:27 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post
Haha - good point! Two wrongs make a right!
We *could* interpret it like this: Audyssey silently acknowledged that the surround level indeed was too high with Dynamic EQ and therefore they "fixed" it with the DSX surround reduction. I think Roger alluded to that a long time ago.

If I remember correcly, DSX does the reduction even if Dynamic EQ is not enabled and that would indeed cause a too low surround level (if we assume Dynamic EQ sets it too high of course...).

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post #72187 of 72197 Old Today, 07:15 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by batpig View Post
This is covered in the FAQ.

There are two basic guidelines that apply here:

1) you want "line of sight" from the microphone to the speaker. If the microphones line to the speaker is physically blocked by the couch back then obviously it will not be able to accurately "hear" the frequency response of the speaker.

2) you want to avoid boundaries / reflective surfaces, with at least 10" or so of clearance between the couch back and mic.

So, putting those together, make sure the mic is far enough forward from the couch back to avoid reflections, but high enough that the mic has clear line of sight to the surround speakers. If you want to measure a position or two behind the MLP then place the mic above the couch back.

My receiver has Audyssey XT32 with Sub EQ HT.
The sofa (main seating area) is up against the back wall.
So putting the microphone behind the sofa won't work.

Moving the recommended Audyssey eight position microphone placement, further ahead of its target area, is a better altetnative, if I'm reading your response correctly?
The microphone doesn't have to be above the sofas headrest,
as long as there's 10" of clearance?

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post #72188 of 72197 Old Today, 07:21 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rickardl View Post
We *could* interpret it like this: Audyssey silently acknowledged that the surround level indeed was too high with Dynamic EQ and therefore they "fixed" it with the DSX surround reduction. I think Roger alluded to that a long time ago.

If I remember correcly, DSX does the reduction even if Dynamic EQ is not enabled and that would indeed cause a too low surround level (if we assume Dynamic EQ sets it too high of course...).
I listen at about -5dB so DEQ isn't doing too much here (for a long time I ran a RLO of 5, effectively nullifying DEQ for my regular listening) so the surround overboost doesn't bother me. What did bother me was the way DSX shifted everything to the front.
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post #72189 of 72197 Old Today, 07:51 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by coolcat4843 View Post
My receiver has Audyssey XT32 with Sub EQ HT.
The sofa (main seating area) is up against the back wall.
So putting the microphone behind the sofa won't work.

Moving the recommended Audyssey eight position microphone placement, further ahead of its target area, is a better altetnative, if I'm reading your response correctly?
The microphone doesn't have to be above the sofas headrest,
as long as there's 10" of clearance?
It doesn't have to be raised, but it can be. Some people have claimed to get a better result when a couple of the measurements are taken above and below the primary listening position.

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post #72190 of 72197 Old Today, 08:24 AM
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I started a thread over in the DIY area, but I thought I would post here as well since my thread isn't getting much traffic.

I have recently finished building 2 sealed LMS Ultra subs, each to be powered by a QSC rmx 4050hd (4k watts per sub), and I'm getting ready to EQ them.

I'm curious if anyone here is using XT32 in conjunction with a Mini-DSP? And if so what is the preferred method for using the two together.

My thought is to let audyssey do it's thing, then add any filters to the Mini after? My understanding is that if you add any kind of EQ pre audyssey, it will try to correct what you have already done. Audyssey will not know that the shelf filter I added is caused by my room, or if I added it on purpose, so it will try to get it flat.

I plan to place my subs, start audyssey, adjust gains on my amps until I meet reference, then set audyssey loose. After audyssey I will probably add. HPF at like 15hz, until I get a chance to use REW to measure what is going on in my room.

Will this work for a quick set up? I'm having a BBQ this weekend and I want to show off a little. I know I can get more of of my system later when I sit down to do measurements and apply a LT.

So if anyone is using XT32 with a mini I would like to hear how you are doing it, and a step by step would be sweet

I'm a noob to the EQ stuff so any help would be appreciated.
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post #72191 of 72197 Old Today, 08:30 AM
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I copied and pasted this from another thread but wanted to post my impressions here:

Quote:
Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post
That is a very good point. So what you are saying is that during the cal, Audyssey will check for whatever speakers are there and then send tones to, and calibrate for, all of them, even though not all can be played simultaneously. That makes sense.
Oh how I can't wait to hear ALL of those chirps and god forbid if I need to recalibrate...
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post #72192 of 72197 Old Today, 08:49 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SeekingNirvana View Post
I started a thread over in the DIY area, but I thought I would post here as well since my thread isn't getting much traffic.

I have recently finished building 2 sealed LMS Ultra subs, each to be powered by a QSC rmx 4050hd (4k watts per sub), and I'm getting ready to EQ them.

I'm curious if anyone here is using XT32 in conjunction with a Mini-DSP? And if so what is the preferred method for using the two together.

My thought is to let audyssey do it's thing, then add any filters to the Mini after? My understanding is that if you add any kind of EQ pre audyssey, it will try to correct what you have already done. Audyssey will not know that the shelf filter I added is caused by my room, or if I added it on purpose, so it will try to get it flat.

I plan to place my subs, start audyssey, adjust gains on my amps until I meet reference, then set audyssey loose. After audyssey I will probably add. HPF at like 15hz, until I get a chance to use REW to measure what is going on in my room.

Will this work for a quick set up? I'm having a BBQ this weekend and I want to show off a little. I know I can get more of of my system later when I sit down to do measurements and apply a LT.

So if anyone is using XT32 with a mini I would like to hear how you are doing it, and a step by step would be sweet

I'm a noob to the EQ stuff so any help would be appreciated.
Nope, you pretty much got it. Below is my standard procedure for dual subs with Audyssey.

As far as EQ with the MiniDSP, are you aware that REW will generate filters for your MiniDSP based on your measured response? Play around with the EQ panel, it's pretty cool. If you need more instruction, just let us know.

I prefer to EQ post-Audyssey myself as well.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Set the gain on both subs to the same level - around 12:00-2:00 on the gain knob is a good starting point (just a starting point, gain structure can vary greatly from one manufacturer to another). Set phase to "0" on both subs for now.

1. Connect sub #1 only and place it at the MLP
2. Do the sub crawl to determine the best position for sub #1
3. Place sub #1 in that position
4. Connect both subs and place sub #2 at the MLP (with sub #1 playing as well)
5. Do the sub crawl to determine the best position for sub #2
6. Place sub #2 in that position
7. Playing the AVRs test tone, adjust phase on one of the subs until you get the maximum SPL at the MLP (could be variable or a simple 0/180 switch)
8. Run Audyssey, first mic position only, and "calculate"
9. Look to see where Audyssey has set your sub trim, you want it to be around -5db to -8db ideally
10. Adjust the gain on both subs by the same amount up or down as needed
11. Repeat 8-10 until you get the sub trim around -5db to -8db
12. Run the full Audyssey calibration
13. Bump up the sub trim by 3db to 6db to your preference
14. Enjoy!

Hope this helps!

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CC: Klipsch RC64ii
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post #72193 of 72197 Old Today, 11:06 AM
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DSX has better surround envelopment than PLIIz Height... I didn't realize how right I was...


I decided to do some A/B test with World War Z which has a 7.1 DTS HD MA track.
With DSX, the speakers gave a more seamless impression with good surround envelopment.
I switched to PLIIz Height which made it sound less integrated and the different channels didn't blend together as well.
And worse surround envelopment, especially from the back/rear surrounds I came to notice.


I switched to straight DTS HD MA listening mode and suddenly the rear surrounds kicked in again.
What the heck was happening??
I setup the Oppo player in A-B Reapet mode so it would play the same sequence over and over again
while I switched between DSX, PLIIz Height and straight DTS HD MA listening mode and it was clear,
PLIIz Height didn't make a lot of use of the rear surrounds.
At 52 minutes 36 seconds there is an engine roar that pans from the Right surround to the back surrounds with DSX and DTS HD MA, with PLIIz Height, it stayed in the Right surround.
That was not the only place where it happened but a very easy spot to verify with.
I then put in Spears&Munsil 2nd Edition HD Benchmark which has discrete test tones for DTS HD MA 7.1
and was kind of shocked to hear that the Right rear surround channel was played in the Right surround speaker!
The same for the Left rear surround which ended up in the Left surround speaker.
With DSX and straight DTS HD MA listening mode, it came from the correct speakers.
I then switched to Dolby TrueHD in the setup for the disc and tried the test tones again.
And what do you know? The Right rear surround channel was played in the Right rear speaker and the Left rear surround channel was played in the Left rear speaker, just as it should be!


So, it must be a bug in my Onkyo TX-NR3008 where PLIIz Height is malfunctioning with DTS HD MA 7.1 tracks but works fine with Dolby TrueHD 7.1 tracks.

Last edited by rickardl; Today at 11:10 AM.
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post #72194 of 72197 Old Today, 11:20 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rickardl View Post
With DSX, the speakers gave a more seamless impression with good surround envelopment.
I switched to PLIIz Height which made it sound less integrated and the different channels didn't blend together as well.
This is the "Surround Envelopment Processing" portion of DSX. As we've discussed, DSX monkeys with the surround levels and decorrelates them (in addition whatever proprietary secret sauce is happening) which is probably what you are hearing. I've heard it and think it's very effective.

Marketing Blurb: In addition to creating new Wide and Height channels, Audyssey DSX also provides Surround Envelopment Processing to enhance the envelopment of the Surround and Back Surround channels (if present). Audyssey DSX Surround Envelopment Processing processes the standard surround signals in the time and frequency domains to improve the perceived sense of envelopment and blending with the other speakers in the surround system.

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post #72195 of 72197 Old Today, 11:51 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rickardl View Post
DSX has better surround envelopment than PLIIz Height... I didn't realize how right I was...


I decided to do some A/B test with World War Z which has a 7.1 DTS HD MA track.
With DSX, the speakers gave a more seamless impression with good surround envelopment.
I switched to PLIIz Height which made it sound less integrated and the different channels didn't blend together as well.
And worse surround envelopment, especially from the back/rear surrounds I came to notice.


I switched to straight DTS HD MA listening mode and suddenly the rear surrounds kicked in again.
What the heck was happening??
I setup the Oppo player in A-B Reapet mode so it would play the same sequence over and over again
while I switched between DSX, PLIIz Height and straight DTS HD MA listening mode and it was clear,
PLIIz Height didn't make a lot of use of the rear surrounds.
At 52 minutes 36 seconds there is an engine roar that pans from the Right surround to the back surrounds with DSX and DTS HD MA, with PLIIz Height, it stayed in the Right surround.
That was not the only place where it happened but a very easy spot to verify with.
I then put in Spears&Munsil 2nd Edition HD Benchmark which has discrete test tones for DTS HD MA 7.1
and was kind of shocked to hear that the Right rear surround channel was played in the Right surround speaker!
The same for the Left rear surround which ended up in the Left surround speaker.
With DSX and straight DTS HD MA listening mode, it came from the correct speakers.
I then switched to Dolby TrueHD in the setup for the disc and tried the test tones again.
And what do you know? The Right rear surround channel was played in the Right rear speaker and the Left rear surround channel was played in the Left rear speaker, just as it should be!


So, it must be a bug in my Onkyo TX-NR3008 where PLIIz Height is malfunctioning with DTS HD MA 7.1 tracks but works fine with Dolby TrueHD 7.1 tracks.
Very interesting. Thanks for taking the time to try this. Now I don't have rear surrounds, so my experience may well be different simply because of that. But I find that DSX kills the surround envelopment almost totally - presumably because it lowers the SPL of the surrounds so much, and at the same time kicks in the front height speakers - this gives a very front-centric presentation. This doesn't happen with PLIIz or Neo:X at all.

Why yours should be different for TrueHD and DTS HD-MA is a mystery. Maybe be a bug as you say.
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post #72196 of 72197 Old Today, 11:55 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by batpig View Post
This is the "Surround Envelopment Processing" portion of DSX. As we've discussed, DSX monkeys with the surround levels and decorrelates them (in addition whatever proprietary secret sauce is happening) which is probably what you are hearing. I've heard it and think it's very effective.

Marketing Blurb: In addition to creating new Wide and Height channels, Audyssey DSX also provides Surround Envelopment Processing to enhance the envelopment of the Surround and Back Surround channels (if present). Audyssey DSX Surround Envelopment Processing processes the standard surround signals in the time and frequency domains to improve the perceived sense of envelopment and blending with the other speakers in the surround system.
Except, IME, it doesn't. By lowering the surrounds so much, and at the same time producing almost a copy of the FR and FL speaker signal in the FRH and FHL speakers, it results in a giant 'wall of sound' in front of you, at the expense of surround envelopment. I find it quite horrible. It is impressive on first hearing, but after a while you notice that the surrounds have more or less disappeared. I should note that this is without Dynamic EQ engaged, or barely engaged. With DEQ and a MV of, say, -15, the effect may well be entirely different.

It's all preference anyway, and as soon as I get my hands on Dolby Surround, PLIIz, Neo:X and DSX will be consigned to the dustbin of history in my HT, I expect, based on reports from those who have heard it to date.
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post #72197 of 72197 Old Today, 12:02 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post
Except, IME, it doesn't. By lowering the surrounds so much, and at the same time producing almost a copy of the FR and FL speaker signal in the FRH and FHL speakers, it results in a giant 'wall of sound' in front of you, at the expense of surround envelopment. I find it quite horrible....
This was my experience as well...I have to admit sometimes when I do A/B comparisons on certain things there are close calls but using Heights and Rears in a 9.1 configuration it was obvious that PLIIz worked better in our room.
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