"Official" Audyssey thread (FAQ in post #51779) - Page 2409 - AVS Forum
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post #72241 of 72269 Old 08-30-2014, 12:37 PM
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Originally Posted by scubasteve2365 View Post
I understand that XT has better resolution filters, I get that it's better. What I'd like to know is how much better? How can I value it? Can anyone testify to how much better XT is over the vanilla? I tried searching for some actual comments on the percieved improvements but didn't have any luck. I'm sure it's buried in this thread somewhere, but it's hard to search for.

Very minimal. You probably wouldn't even notice. However, XT32 is a MASSIVE improvement over both. That is the version that you want.




http://www.audyssey.com/technologies/multeq/flavors
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post #72242 of 72269 Old 08-30-2014, 02:40 PM
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I guess, I'd feel better knowing exactly what they mean by "filter resolution" at 2x. What is this saying in more technical terms?

"The Scuba Tank" thread here
PSN/XBL : ScubaSteve2365
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post #72243 of 72269 Old 08-30-2014, 02:57 PM
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Originally Posted by scubasteve2365 View Post
I guess, I'd feel better knowing exactly what they mean by "filter resolution" at 2x. What is this saying in more technical terms?
It is undisclosed parameter (as Audyssey tells it is not to confuse people - ridiculous excuse, telling this to HT builder is like disguising stiffness of concrete from building architects... not to confuse them).

But you can assume x=1/1500Hz (in terms of FIR filter resolution) as a reverse-engineered value based on available data and measurements.
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post #72244 of 72269 Old 08-30-2014, 02:59 PM
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Presumably the values are the relative numbers of coefficients in the FIR filter algorithms.
Unfortunately, the details are a closely held trade secret.

However, if you are willing to take the time to measure the results using a spectrum analyzer like REW, one can evaluate the improvement in any particular listening environment and often determine what other procedures could be used to improve the room's acoustics. See the REW thread for details.

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post #72245 of 72269 Old 08-30-2014, 03:02 PM
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Originally Posted by scubasteve2365 View Post
I just purchased an Denon AVRS900W. I initially believed the AVR had MultiEQ XT based on the comparison from Denon's website (see attached image). I guess I'm wrong in that it only includes MultiEQ (non-XT), as it certainly only uses the 6 measuring points during setup.

I understand that XT has better resolution filters, I get that it's better. What I'd like to know is how much better? How can I value it? Can anyone testify to how much better XT is over the vanilla? I tried searching for some actual comments on the percieved improvements but didn't have any luck. I'm sure it's buried in this thread somewhere, but it's hard to search for.
Hi, according to several experts Audyssey MultEQ XT32 is the true beneficial Auto Room EQ.
Anything else below (inferior flavors, including XT, MultEQ, and 2EQ) are missing some essence.

When Audyssey was first introduced to the mass population in our AV receivers back in 2006, it was revolutionary.
With years passing by, XT32 was the most impressive improvement, and we discovered how much more, compared to the other Audyssey flavors below. ...Also, a receiver that is Audyssey MultEQ Pro Capable is another higher notch if you are going to buy a licence with the Pro kit (about $600 extra).

Audyssey MultEQ has a very fair amount of filters in the bass (subwoofer), very good, as a fact as much as Audyssey MultEQ XT (I believe).

The thing with less than XT32 is the less than perfect EQuing all around; mids, highs, and bass too, plus only one sub.

Nowadays, we have YPAO, MCACC, AccuEQ, ARC, and Audyssey. ...Plus MiniDSP and Dirac Live.
There are several others too but those are the mainstream ones.

Audyssey MultEQ XT32 is the way to go. I think. ...Less in the family is ok, but less nonetheless.
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post #72246 of 72269 Old 08-30-2014, 03:09 PM
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Originally Posted by zeus33 View Post
Very minimal. You probably wouldn't even notice.
However, XT32 is a MASSIVE improvement over both. That is the version that you want.




http://www.audyssey.com/technologies/multeq/flavors
That! ^
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post #72247 of 72269 Old 08-30-2014, 03:14 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by scubasteve2365 View Post
I guess, I'd feel better knowing exactly what they mean by "filter resolution" at 2x. What is this saying in more technical terms?
Here the numbers don't mean much @ all. ...It is the measurements before and after that count. ...Graphs.
And what you hear, from those representative graphs, in your room. ...Happiness.
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post #72248 of 72269 Old 08-30-2014, 04:11 PM
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Thanks for the responses guys. I don't feel that bad about it now, seeing something like "2x" and not knowing what it means gave pause.

On my previous receiver, a yammy, I did setup more manually with REW. It appears I cannot tweak any frequency response (EQ) and keep Audyssey active, but can I tweak distance and work in the time domain? I'd like to take the sub delay down to 0 (I have a minidsp) and verify/massage the other delays as needed if I discover things in REW while Audyssey is active (I like the dynamic and other functions)
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post #72249 of 72269 Old 08-30-2014, 05:23 PM
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Steve, if I was you, I would return the Denon receiver, or sell it, and search for (get):

♦ Onkyo TX-NR818 AV receiver or
♦ Onkyo TX-NR929 AVR or
♦ Denon AVR-4311CI or
♦ Denon AVR-4520CI or
♦ Denon AVR-X4100W (with D Atmos & DS) or
♦ Denon AVR-X5200W AV receiver (Dolby Atmos, and Dolby Surround "upmixer").

* You want Audyssey MultEQ XT32, and you don't want to pay too much to obtain it, and you might also want Dolby Atmos and Dolby Surround. ...If I was you.

...And of course unless someone has a better idea or two.

Last edited by NorthSky; 08-30-2014 at 05:31 PM. Reason: ...
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post #72250 of 72269 Old 08-30-2014, 06:06 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NorthSky View Post
Hi, according to several experts Audyssey MultEQ XT32 is the true beneficial Auto Room EQ.
Anything else below (inferior flavors, including XT, MultEQ, and 2EQ) are missing some essence.

When Audyssey was first introduced to the mass population in our AV receivers back in 2006, it was revolutionary.
With years passing by, XT32 was the most impressive improvement, and we discovered how much more, compared to the other Audyssey flavors below. ...Also, a receiver that is Audyssey MultEQ Pro Capable is another higher notch if you are going to buy a licence with the Pro kit (about $600 extra).

Audyssey MultEQ has a very fair amount of filters in the bass (subwoofer), very good, as a fact as much as Audyssey MultEQ XT (I believe).

The thing with less than XT32 is the less than perfect EQuing all around; mids, highs, and bass too, plus only one sub.

Nowadays, we have YPAO, MCACC, AccuEQ, ARC, and Audyssey. ...Plus MiniDSP and Dirac Live.
There are several others too but those are the mainstream ones.

Audyssey MultEQ XT32 is the way to go. I think. ...Less in the family is ok, but less nonetheless.
But XT32 still doesn't give a perfect crossover between subs and mains. We still need to manually adjust the subwoofer distance for proper integration. Audyssey should do something about this. I hope XT32 will get a successor.
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post #72251 of 72269 Old Today, 06:33 AM
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Hi guys I have a question. I noticed that after I completed my 8 mic positions audyssey xt, that my speakers are not in 75db when I check it with my spl radio shack. Is it okay to adjust the level trims to get all of them to 75db after audyssey? Thanks
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post #72252 of 72269 Old Today, 06:39 AM
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Originally Posted by caloyzki View Post
Hi guys I have a question. I noticed that after I completed my 8 mic positions audyssey xt, that my speakers are not in 75db when I check it with my spl radio shack. Is it okay to adjust the level trims to get all of them to 75db after audyssey? Thanks
Read this FAQ answer before you do anything.

e)3. Why is it a bad idea to use your AVR test tones and a SPL meter to check trim levels?
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post #72253 of 72269 Old Today, 06:41 AM
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Originally Posted by Skylinestar View Post
But XT32 still doesn't give a perfect crossover between subs and mains. We still need to manually adjust the subwoofer distance for proper integration. Audyssey should do something about this. I hope XT32 will get a successor.
Audyssey doesn’t measure the combined response of the sub(s) and the mains at any stage, so it can only 'calculate' the best XO at the splice. If you use independent methods, such as REW, to optimise the XO at the splice you will almost always improve on what Audyssey has set, based on numerous reports on AVS and in this thread. I compiled a guide to tweaking the sub distance settings and it can be downloaded via my sig link.
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post #72254 of 72269 Old Today, 07:14 AM
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Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post
Audyssey doesn’t measure the combined response of the sub(s) and the mains at any stage, so it can only 'calculate' the best XO at the splice. If you use independent methods, such as REW, to optimise the XO at the splice you will almost always improve on what Audyssey has set, based on numerous reports on AVS and in this thread. I compiled a guide to tweaking the sub distance settings and it can be downloaded via my sig link.
Yes, I did follow the guide and got great results in manually tweaking the sub distance and checking with REW.
I wonder if Trinnov/Dirac/Datasat has perfect crossover...
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post #72255 of 72269 Old Today, 07:33 AM
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Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post
To add to what Keith has said, a new section has been added to the REW Guide (linked in both Keith's signature and mine) which deals with how to accurately set/measure speaker output levels using REW. Based on my experiences when developing this new section, the speaker levels set by Audyssey, and as measured with a calibrated mic and REW, are usually spot-on. I have never seen variances much more than .5dB, which IMO is "close enough". Especially for the low frequencies, where the RS SPL can be somewhat inaccurate, the calibrated mic shows that the level set by Audyssey is quite accurate.
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post #72256 of 72269 Old Today, 08:58 AM
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Originally Posted by AustinJerry View Post
To add to what Keith has said, a new section has been added to the REW Guide (linked in both Keith's signature and mine) which deals with how to accurately set/measure speaker output levels using REW. Based on my experiences when developing this new section, the speaker levels set by Audyssey, and as measured with a calibrated mic and REW, are usually spot-on. I have never seen variances much more than .5dB, which IMO is "close enough". Especially for the low frequencies, where the RS SPL can be somewhat inaccurate, the calibrated mic shows that the level set by Audyssey is quite accurate.
Agreed totally, Jerry. I have measured the post-calibration levels with REW too, and they are always spot on here ±0.5dB as you say. An impressive Audyssey performance and it shows that there should be no need to futz with trim levels except in exceptional circumstances, or to add some extra bass oomph, if desired.
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post #72257 of 72269 Old Today, 10:44 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by AustinJerry View Post
To add to what Keith has said, a new section has been added to the REW Guide (linked in both Keith's signature and mine) which deals with how to accurately set/measure speaker output levels using REW. Based on my experiences when developing this new section, the speaker levels set by Audyssey, and as measured with a calibrated mic and REW, are usually spot-on. I have never seen variances much more than .5dB, which IMO is "close enough". Especially for the low frequencies, where the RS SPL can be somewhat inaccurate, the calibrated mic shows that the level set by Audyssey is quite accurate.
Okay thanks guys. Becausw my only concern is my left surrounds. It gives me +0.05dd and right surround is -1.5db. And the rest of them are in negative (-) db. The problem is I dont have any equipment for REW. But I have a bluray disc that has a test of pink noise sound. Is that bluray will help? Compare to my avr pink noise?
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post #72258 of 72269 Old Today, 10:48 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by caloyzki View Post
Okay thanks guys. Becausw my only concern is my left surrounds. It gives me +0.05dd and right surround is -1.5db. And the rest of them are in negative (-) db. The problem is I dont have any equipment for REW. But I have a bluray disc that has a test of pink noise sound. Is that bluray will help? Compare to my avr pink noise?
Can you share the distances Audyssey detected for your left and right surrounds?
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post #72259 of 72269 Old Today, 10:48 AM
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Just trust audyssey. That's what they are telling you.
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post #72260 of 72269 Old Today, 11:46 AM
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Here is the distance from audyssey. Surround left 3.6ft and right 4.0ft.

The left surround is too damn loud. Lol
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post #72261 of 72269 Old Today, 11:58 AM
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Originally Posted by caloyzki View Post
Here is the distance from audyssey. Surround left 3.6ft and right 4.0ft.

The left surround is too damn loud. Lol
On paper it looks like this:

Left surround: + 0.05 dB/3.6 ft.
Right surround: - 1.50 dB/ 4 ft.
-----------------------------------------

Something wrong here. Take a look at the numbers please. Since the left surround is closer to MLP it should have the negative trim, but in your case it's the other way around. Care to cross-check again?

On a second note, can you go up close to the left surround and listen closely? The tweeter may be broken so Audyssey had to boost the trim. Just a blind guess to be ruled out.
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post #72262 of 72269 Old Today, 12:27 PM
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Quote:
But XT32 still doesn't give a perfect crossover between subs and mains. We still need to manually adjust the subwoofer distance for proper integration. Audyssey should do something about this. I hope XT32 will get a successor.
Quote:
Audyssey doesn’t measure the combined response of the sub(s) and the mains at any stage, so it can only 'calculate' the best XO at the splice. If you use independent methods, such as REW, to optimise the XO at the splice you will almost always improve on what Audyssey has set, based on numerous reports on AVS and in this thread. I compiled a guide to tweaking the sub distance settings and it can be downloaded via my sig link.
I have always been under the impression that it was the receiver, or SSP, that selects the crossovers,
and not Audyssey. ...Wrong impression?

Quote:
Okay thanks guys. Becausw my only concern is my left surrounds. It gives me +0.05dd and right surround is -1.5db. And the rest of them are in negative (-) db. The problem is I dont have any equipment for REW. But I have a bluray disc that has a test of pink noise sound. Is that bluray will help? Compare to my avr pink noise?
I always final/fine-tune my channel levels by ear.
Usually I add few dBs to my center channel, and to my surround channels, and subwoofer channel.

Quote:
Just trust audyssey. That's what they are telling you.
Just trust your ears. ...Audyssey doesn't know which movie you are watching, or music you are listening to.
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post #72263 of 72269 Old Today, 12:31 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by caloyzki View Post
Okay thanks guys. Becausw my only concern is my left surrounds. It gives me +0.05dd and right surround is -1.5db. And the rest of them are in negative (-) db. The problem is I dont have any equipment for REW. But I have a bluray disc that has a test of pink noise sound. Is that bluray will help? Compare to my avr pink noise?
The external test tones will be more accurate because you can use them with Audyssey enabled. As the FAQ answer shows, it can make a big difference. There's nothing unusual in the trims being fairly different between speakers. The room will influence how loud the speakers sound - if some are in corners for example, and some are not, they will need to be trimmed down. As Jerry says, and as my own experience confirms, level setting is something Audyssey does almost to perfection.

Trust Audyssey to have this right. And when you say that one speaker sounds louder than the other, even though the difference is only 2dB, I start to worry you are overthinking it and maybe hearing things that are not really there - we all do this sometimes. Is your head when listening, for example, in the exact same spot as the mic was in when you measured the first position? If it is 6 inches out, then it will sound different maybe.

At the end of the day, it is your system and your ears. If you are not happy with the balance of the sound between the two speakers, then adjust the trim on one of them until you are. You won’t affect the actual calibration in any way.

It is extremely unlikely you have a blown tweeter BTW.

Last edited by kbarnes701; Today at 12:35 PM.
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post #72264 of 72269 Old Today, 12:35 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by AustinJerry View Post
To add to what Keith has said, a new section has been added to the REW Guide (linked in both Keith's signature and mine) which deals with how to accurately set/measure speaker output levels using REW. Based on my experiences when developing this new section, the speaker levels set by Audyssey, and as measured with a calibrated mic and REW, are usually spot-on. I have never seen variances much more than .5dB, which IMO is "close enough". Especially for the low frequencies, where the RS SPL can be somewhat inaccurate, the calibrated mic shows that the level set by Audyssey is quite accurate.
Quote:
Originally Posted by mogorf View Post
Can you share the distances Audyssey detected for your left and right surrounds?
Quote:
Originally Posted by batpig View Post
Just trust audyssey. That's what they are telling you.
Quote:
Originally Posted by mogorf View Post
On paper it looks like this:

Left surround: + 0.05 dB/3.6 ft.
Right surround: - 1.50 dB/ 4 ft.
-----------------------------------------

Something wrong here. Take a look at the numbers please. Since the left surround is closer to MLP it should have the negative trim, but in your case it's the other way around. Care to cross-check again?

On a second note, can you go up close to the left surround and listen closely? The tweeter may be broken so Audyssey had to boost the trim. Just a blind guess to be ruled out.
Quote:
Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post
The external test tones will be more accurate because you can use them with Audyssey enabled. As the FAQ answer shows, it can make a big difference. There's nothing unusual in the trims being fairly different between speakers. The room will influence how loud the speakers sound - if some are in corners for example they will need to be trimmed down. As Jerry says, and as my own experience confirms, level setting is something Audyssey does almost to perfection.
Thanks guys. I just re run my audyssey again and it gives me better result than last night result.
Now:
left surround -4.5db 4.1 feet
Right surround -3.5db 4.0 feet
And it much sounds better now. Maybe its just my mic positions and speakers positions. I did adjust my speakers now and mic and gives me that better results. Thanks guys!
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post #72265 of 72269 Old Today, 12:44 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NorthSky View Post

"Audyssey doesn’t measure the combined response of the sub(s) and the mains at any stage, so it can only 'calculate' the best XO at the splice."

I have always been under the impression that it was the receiver, or SSP, that selects the crossovers,
and not Audyssey. ...Wrong impression?
You are correct NS, the commercial version of Audyssey found in AVRs/AVPs reports the -3 dB point of the Center speaker and the higher -3 dB point of all other speakers in pairs and the cross-over is set by the Bass Management system of the AVR/AVP. I.e., a - 3dB point of a Center speaker detected by Audyssey at 57 Hz will be set by the BM to 60 Hz.

Meantime, calculation of the best XO at the splice is a feature of the Audyssey Pro Kit, as we know.
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post #72266 of 72269 Old Today, 01:20 PM
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How many people are using the Audyssey MultEQ Pro kit?
...In percentage, out of all the people who own a receiver or pre/pro with that capability.

And yes, some receivers select the x-overs according to the minus 3dB point (rough estimate) or size of the woofer driver.
...And we all know that most of the time we manually change them because they are not close to what reality is.
With Audyssey we can only raise them crossovers, not lower them as we'll lose some EQ somewhere between what the receiver has automatically selected and what we manually lower them @.

Audyssey MultEQ XT32 is cool, but working with the listener (us) it is even cooler. It is up to us @ the end to follow the guidelines @ best as we can, and finally/manually fine-tune to our own reference/preference.
...With or without measurements, from REW or others.

Audyssey is a friend, and the best friend Audyssey has is us.

Last edited by NorthSky; Today at 01:23 PM.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by caloyzki View Post
Thanks guys. I just re run my audyssey again and it gives me better result than last night result.
Now:
left surround -4.5db 4.1 feet
Right surround -3.5db 4.0 feet
And it much sounds better now. Maybe its just my mic positions and speakers positions. I did adjust my speakers now and mic and gives me that better results. Thanks guys!
I still fear some discrepancy here caloyzki. Take a look at your numbers again. The left speaker which if farther away from MLP was trimmed down more that the right speaker which is closer.

You may verify the case by swapping the two speakers and running Audyssey again to see whether the trims follow the speakers or not while keeping the physical distance of each, of course. Up to you.
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Originally Posted by mogorf View Post
Meantime, calculation of the best XO at the splice is a feature of the Audyssey Pro Kit, as we know.
No it isn't. Pro never measures the combined output of the mains and subs either, so it too gets the delays wrong for the subs. I only know of one person (Pepar) who has not had to adjust the delays manually to improve the splice.

What Pro does do is give a selection of crossovers to choose from, in ranked order, prior to calculating the final filters. But the only way to optimise the splice is to measure the combined mains+subs, which no version of Audyssey does. (And to be fair, no version of any automated REQ AFAIK).

In the document linked to my sig, there are some excellent graphs provided by AustinJerry, which demonstrate clearly the benefits which manual adjustment can bring.
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Originally Posted by NorthSky View Post
And yes, some receivers select the x-overs according to the minus 3dB point (rough estimate) or size of the woofer driver.
I know of no Audyssey enabled receiver that selects the x-overs based on woofer size. I may be wrong here.

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...And we all know that most of the time we manually change them because they are not close to what reality is.
A -3 dB roll-off point of a speakers IS reality from technical point of view. From perception point of view we have another (stronger) reality and that's why we set the x-o to 80 Hz(ish). (Blog on "Small vs. Large" in my sig tells the story.)


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With Audyssey we can only raise them crossovers, not lower them as we'll lose some EQ somewhere between what the receiver has automatically selected and what we manually lower them @.
True.

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Audyssey MultEQ XT32 is cool, but working with the listener (us) it is even cooler. It is up to us @ the end to follow the guidelines @ best as we can, and finally/manually fine-tune to our own reference/preference.
...With or without measurements, from REW or others.
Also agree.

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Audyssey is a friend, and the best friend Audyssey has is us.
Nice to have best friends.
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