"Official" Audyssey thread (FAQ in post #51779) - Page 241 - AVS Forum
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post #7201 of 72585 Old 10-06-2008, 06:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LarryChanin View Post

Hi Chris,

I am merely suggesting that if you have two rows of seating (which in my case happen to be between the main speakers) that it may be useful to place microphones there, if that is where you want Audyssey to adjust the response.

OK. I would agree with that.

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post #7202 of 72585 Old 10-06-2008, 08:28 PM
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Originally Posted by Brian-HD View Post

Chris,
I made all the adjustments that were suggested. I am happy with my improvements.

Hi Brian. Good to hear. Thanks for reporting back.

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post #7203 of 72585 Old 10-06-2008, 10:45 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BryanCPA View Post

After running audyssey on my Denon 3808 after the feature update, I'm getting -12 levels on all 5 speakers and the sub where these levels were all close to 0 (+/- 2) prior to the update. The distance measurements, speaker size, and crossovers all appear correct though before and after the update. Is it possible I have a corrupt firmware update or perhaps poor mic placement? My internet connection is via a powerline adapter.

I'm getting a similar problem, however my sub is anywhere from +3, +5, +8 everytime I run the setup.

My left front, center, and rear are coming up at 0.1ft, rights 1.3ft (Fronts are about 8ft, center 7ft, and rears 5 ft. away).

I've rerun the setup numerous times and get the same results. Would adding the detected distance to the actual distance produce a relatively correct result?
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post #7204 of 72585 Old 10-07-2008, 12:09 AM
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I apparently have the 'corrupted firmware' issue. My subs distance are reported erratically, 0.0m or close to it. Everything else seems fine. I recently upgraded to 1.95 firmware (AVR4308). Will downloading the feature pack maybe fix this as it overwrite the Audyssey DSP algorithms? Or does it just unlock features already in the DSP? This is a european (Norway) AVR, so it doesn't have the 'CI' designator.

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post #7205 of 72585 Old 10-07-2008, 12:56 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LarryChanin View Post

Hi Enzo,

To try to address your comments, let's step back a moment from Audyssey. Now, without Audyssey how do you calibrate your system? Well, first you select the "primary listening location" and place an SPL meter there and you adjust all the levels to 75dB. Then you use that location to set the distance or delays.

Hi Larry,
when you have to deal with asimmetrical placements, you have to deal with two different problems.
One is sound image and two is IMAGE.
If placing the mic in the main seating location, even if off center, can solve the problem one, because setting delays and level can move virtually your seatings to the center, the same does not happen with the IMAGE.
In other words, you will feel to be seated in front of the center of the IMAGE but you see that the IMAGE is off center.

I think this can confuse our brain.

In my opinion you should pick the primary mic position in the center of the IMAGE and them move the mic laterally to the closest lmit of the seating area, measure that distance, and repeat the position on the opposite side.

This will throw off some of the seating but I do not see other possibility.

Trying to confuse MultEQ is not something I consider a good idea.
It is just a computer calculating things and as an Old statement says about computers "Rubbish in equals to rubbish out"

It seem that something is appearing on the market able to deal with worng placement of the speakers, but it still would not be able to avoid the confusion our brain can feel if the sound image and the IMAGE are not centered one to the other.

I hope I have been clear enough, because my english is limited.

ciao
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post #7206 of 72585 Old 10-07-2008, 04:03 AM
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Thanks Chris huge difference as every thing seems to be much better now. My fronts and center crossover are 40hz, sides and rears 60hz and sub at 80hz. I turned off LFE+MAIN.
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post #7207 of 72585 Old 10-07-2008, 06:56 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by atledreier View Post

Will downloading the feature pack maybe fix this as it overwrite the Audyssey DSP algorithms? Or does it just unlock features already in the DSP? This is a european (Norway) AVR, so it doesn't have the 'CI' designator.

I don't know if it will overwrite. It's possible. I would check with Denon about this.

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post #7208 of 72585 Old 10-07-2008, 07:07 AM
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Chris this is a question I asked yesterday and never received an answer...


"1. I assume that the Dynamic equalization control system is tied to System Reference Level of +75 db. One of the things I have noticed is that when the Dynamic equalization is engaged at my normal listening level, the surrounds appear too hot. Obviously I can reduce the surround levels, but when I approach the System Reference Level (as when I watch movies) then the surround levels would most likely be too low.
Is there a way to pick a different System Reference Level to tie the Dynamic equalization start point too?

2. Where does one pick the Target Curve on the DHC-9.9? All I found was MultEQ XT, Dynamic EQ, Dynamic Vol. (Light/Heavy). Of course there are the 40+ Listening Modes which are there even if Audyssey is OFF."

Thanks..........

John
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post #7209 of 72585 Old 10-07-2008, 07:13 AM
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Hi John,

Quote:
Originally Posted by jrannison View Post

"1. I assume that the Dynamic equalization control system is tied to “System Reference Level” of +75 db. One of the things I have noticed is that when the Dynamic equalization is engaged at “my normal listening level”, the surrounds appear too hot. Obviously I can reduce the surround levels, but when I approach the System Reference Level (as when I watch movies) then the surround levels would most likely be too low.
Is there a way to pick a different System Reference Level to tie the Dynamic equalization start point too?

In addition to correcting the frequency response to track human perception, Dynamic EQ turns up the surround level as you lower the volume below 0. We developed the surround adjustment method based on how professionals made the adjustments in our calibrated facility. So, if your calibration is correct you should be getting the same levels. There is no way to change the system reference, so if there is a preference for lower surround levels it will have to be done manually.


Quote:


2. Where does one pick the Target Curve on the DHC-9.9? All I found was MultEQ XT, Dynamic EQ, Dynamic Vol. (Light/Heavy). Of course there are the 40+ Listening Modes which are there even if Audyssey is OFF."

Listening modes have nothing to do with Audyssey or the target curve. Onkyo picks the curve for you automatically. So, when you switch to THX mode, it selects Flat and when you are not in THX mode it selects the Audyssey ref. curve

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post #7210 of 72585 Old 10-07-2008, 07:29 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by audyssey View Post

Hi John,



In addition to correcting the frequency response to track human perception, Dynamic EQ turns up the surround level as you lower the volume below 0. We developed the surround adjustment method based on how professionals made the adjustments in our calibrated facility. So, if your calibration is correct you should be getting the same levels. There is no way to change the system reference, so if there is a preference for lower surround levels it will have to be done manually.




Listening modes have nothing to do with Audyssey or the target curve. Onkyo picks the curve for you automatically. So, when you switch to THX mode, it selects Flat and when you are not in THX mode it selects the Audyssey ref. curve


Thanks Chris

John
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post #7211 of 72585 Old 10-07-2008, 07:35 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by audyssey View Post

It doesn't sound like a firmware issue. How far is the mic from the speakers during the first measurement?

The mic is approximately 11 feet from the center speaker during the first measurement. Also, I tried gently scratching the mic after plugging it in as you suggested and I do hear the scratch sounds through the speakers. Looks like I need to call Denon. Do you know if this requires that I have to send them my unit or is this something they can fix remotely?
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post #7212 of 72585 Old 10-07-2008, 07:38 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BryanCPA View Post

The mic is approximately 11 feet from the center speaker during the first measurement. Also, I tried gently scratching the mic after plugging it in as you suggested and I do hear the scratch sounds through the speakers. Looks like I need to call Denon. Do you know if this requires that I have to send them my unit or is this something they can fix remotely?

That's a sure sign of corrupted firmware. I am not sure how Denon handles this...

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post #7213 of 72585 Old 10-07-2008, 07:43 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by enzo-ita View Post

Hi Larry,
when you have to deal with asimmetrical placements, you have to deal with two different problems.
One is sound image and two is IMAGE.
If placing the mic in the main seating location, even if off center, can solve the problem one, because setting delays and level can move virtually your seatings to the center, the same does not happen with the IMAGE.
In other words, you will feel to be seated in front of the center of the IMAGE but you see that the IMAGE is off center.

I think this can confuse our brain.

In my opinion you should pick the primary mic position in the center of the IMAGE and them move the mic laterally to the closest lmit of the seating area, measure that distance, and repeat the position on the opposite side.

This will throw off some of the seating but I do not see other possibility.

Trying to confuse MultEQ is not something I consider a good idea.
It is just a computer calculating things and as an Old statement says about computers "Rubbish in equals to rubbish out"

It seem that something is appearing on the market able to deal with worng placement of the speakers, but it still would not be able to avoid the confusion our brain can feel if the sound image and the IMAGE are not centered one to the other.

I hope I have been clear enough, because my english is limited.

ciao

Hi Enzo,

I admit I don't fully follow your point, but then I can't speak Italian at all.

To summarize my previous points, all I am trying to convey is that when you have only one location where timing and level setting is performed, then there is only one location in the listening room where this is correct. If you are dealing with an audience, it is impossible to avoid asymetric seating locations, and less than perfect timing and level balancing. The point here is that this is true with or without Audyssey processing, it is just a fundamental limitation of calibrating for multiple seating locations.

Finally, my simple key point, which Chris agreed in posting #7207, is that if you have seating locations which are extended over more than one couch, or more than one row of seating, and if you want each seat to obtain similar good sound, then you have to spread out the microphone locations to sample the acoustic conditions at those locations. This does not confuse MultEQ, it is precisely what MultEQ was designed to do.

Larry
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post #7214 of 72585 Old 10-07-2008, 07:54 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by audyssey View Post

I don't know if it will overwrite. It's possible. I would check with Denon about this.

I do not have the scratching noises, though. I tried scratching the mic both in normal listening modes, and during the audyssey setup.

"Unplugging the signal cable is pretty much the ultimate in component isolation. Now if you removed the AC power and it still did it you should look for the little blond girl saying "they're he-re."
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LarryChanin View Post

Hi Enzo,

I admit I don't fully follow your point, but then I can't speak Italian at all.

To summarize my previous points, all I am trying to convey is that when you have only one location where timing and level setting is performed, then there is only one location in the listening room where this is correct. If you are dealing with an audience, it is impossible to avoid asymetric seating locations, and less than perfect timing and level balancing. The point here is that this is true with or without Audyssey processing, it is just a fundamental limitation of calibrating for multiple seating locations.

I may be wandering from thread topic a bit here, but I'm betting that somebody here can comment on my post. Here's the setup: LCR are aligned so that on-axis is aimed at the 3D geographical center of a relatively compact listening area. A seat to the right of the centerline is further from the left speaker, but more on axis. Will not the slightly higher level from being more on axis cancel out the slightly lower level from being further away with respect to the left speaker? And vice versa for the seat left of the centerline?

From my second (and primary) row of seats, the stereo image doesn't collapse to the closer speaker in my theater when I am not in the "1st mic position" seat and I am speculating as to why. Does my post make sense?
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post #7216 of 72585 Old 10-07-2008, 08:29 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LarryChanin View Post

Hi Enzo,

I admit I don't fully follow your point, but then I can't speak Italian at all.

What I was trying to point out was that strugglign for finding the perfect location for the primary mic position is not worth because there is only one possible position in my opinion and that is related to the middle of the screen, given that the center channel speaker is also positioned in the middle of the screen.

This because if you position it off the middle, the sound image will not be centered to the screen so having two centers. One is the middle of the screen and the other is the center of the sound image. This two centers needs to be aligned or our brain will not be able to uinderstand what comes out from what.

Say that you are speaking with someone, but this listener does not hear your voice coming out of your mouth but the voice comes out from a point at your right or left. Wouldn't this create a problem? The listener would tend to watch in the direction of the point from were the sound is coming out instead of whatching at you.

So the primary mic position is not a choice even in asimmetrical positioning.

I hope il clearer now.

ciao
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post #7217 of 72585 Old 10-07-2008, 09:23 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pepar View Post

I may be wandering from thread topic a bit here, but I'm betting that somebody here can comment on my post. Here's the setup: LCR are aligned so that on-axis is aimed at the 3D geographical center of a relatively compact listening area. A seat to the right of the centerline is further from the left speaker, but more on axis. Will not the slightly higher level from being more on axis cancel out the slightly lower level from being further away with respect to the left speaker? And vice versa for the seat left of the centerline?

From my second (and primary) row of seats, the stereo image doesn't collapse to the closer speaker in my theater when I am not in the "1st mic position" seat and I am speculating as to why. Does my post make sense?

Hi Jeff,

Yes, we are wandering, so this will be my last response to this issue.

First, I'd like to point out that I never claimed that being seating off-axis results in a collapse of the stereo imaging. I merely suggested that timing and level will be suboptimal to the location where the calibration was performed. Further, this suboptimal condition will exist for the majority of audience positions, which don't happen to occupy that "sweet spot".

Personally, since my seating is almost symetrically placed with respect to the mains, when I purchase an Audyssey equipped prepro, I intend to place the first microphone position approximately on-axis. However, consider a situation were the primary seating location is placed asymetrically with respect to the mains, say its several feet away from the centerline. Then setting the timing and speaker levels to a location many feet away from where the listeners will be seated will be suboptimal to if the microphone were placed near the primary listening location. Placing all the microphone locations nearer the actual listening locations will not confuse MultEQ, it will merely provide more relevant acoustic sampling than measuring locations were no one is seated.

The same reasoning should be applied to extended listening positions. That is the microphone positions needs to be expanded to encompass the other seating locations that are located away from the first position. This is not really a radical concept.

Larry
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Larry, my post was completely from my own musing. In fact, I've stopped reading your posts.
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post #7219 of 72585 Old 10-07-2008, 09:38 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LarryChanin View Post

To summarize my previous points, all I am trying to convey is that when you have only one location where timing and level setting is performed, then there is only one location in the listening room where this is correct.

And I bet the in the positions immediately around it the differences are all but imperceptible. For someone who does not even have Audyssey you seem to be over analyzing.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by audyssey View Post

Hi John,

In addition to correcting the frequency response to track human perception, Dynamic EQ turns up the surround level as you lower the volume below 0.

...

Interesting. Would it make sense then for those of us without Dynamic EQ to bump the surrounds up a bit when we don't listen at reference levels?
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post #7221 of 72585 Old 10-07-2008, 09:52 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gary J View Post

And I bet the in the positions immediately around it the differences are all but imperceptible. For someone who does not even have Audyssey you seem to be over analyzing.

Hi Gary,

Mark raised the issue of expanding the guidance to addresses situations other than a compact seating area located symetrically to the main speakers. I supported that idea and suggested that additional microphone positions should be placed in a less compact manner than in the single listening area. It's really not rocket science, but if you choose to label those simple, common sense remarks, as "over analyzing", that's your perogative.

Larry
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gary J View Post

And I bet the in the positions immediately around it the differences are all but imperceptible. For someone who does not even have Audyssey you seem to be over analyzing.

Gary, your point was expressed in the first sentence.
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Maybe I should run my posts by you first from now on?
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post #7224 of 72585 Old 10-07-2008, 10:11 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sdsvtdriver View Post

I'm getting a similar problem, however my sub is anywhere from +3, +5, +8 everytime I run the setup.

My left front, center, and rear are coming up at 0.1ft, rights 1.3ft (Fronts are about 8ft, center 7ft, and rears 5 ft. away).

I've rerun the setup numerous times and get the same results. Would adding the detected distance to the actual distance produce a relatively correct result?

Is it possible to 'redownload' firmware on Denon units? I have a 3808ci and cannot get the measurements to even be remotely accurate. Firmware corruption?
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post #7225 of 72585 Old 10-07-2008, 10:26 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by giomania View Post

Welcome, junkee!

Check out the subwoofer section of the Setup Guide linked in my signature.

If you have more questions after looking that over, come on down.

Mark

The Integra manual indicates that this independent setting (not affecting Audyssey at all) is only applicable where a sub exists in the system and the front speakers are set as Full Band. The results of enabling Full Bass is stated in their manual as follows:

With this setting, you can boost bass output by feeding
front left and right channel bass sounds to the subwoofer.

and

In addition to LFE channel sounds, the subwoofer outputs
front left and right channel bass sounds.

Unfortunately, what is not clear are precisely what is meant by "bass sounds". The assumption, based on the name of this function, is that the fronts will receive the full range of sounds identified by the Integra destined for it, while the sub will receive whatever is deemed bass as well. That way, if the mains receive, but cannot effectively output some of the lower frequencies it receives, the sub will do the heavy lifting.

I suppose the approach for using Audyssey is to first enable Double Bass and then run Audyssey which should make the output adjustments for the frequencies in the appropriate bass region across the mains and sub.

But what you're telling us is to disable Double Bass and set a crossover. Question is: what happens to the signals below, say 50hz if you happen to choose that as the crossover? Does the Integra toss these away or direct them to the sub?

I'm baffled....

Steve Schaffer
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post #7226 of 72585 Old 10-07-2008, 10:31 AM
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Correct me if I am wrong, but isn't it an impossibility to have all seats have equal optimal sound in the theatre/room? There can and only will be one sweet spot. Some have said it is a limitation of equipment or software such as Audyssey, but again it seems unless each seat had its own set of speakers, I don't see how every seat in any room could ever be made to sound exactly alike.
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post #7227 of 72585 Old 10-07-2008, 10:47 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sjschaff View Post

The Integra manual indicates that this independent setting (not affecting Audyssey at all) is only applicable where a sub exists in the system and the front speakers are set as Full Band. The results of enabling Full Bass is stated in their manual as follows:

With this setting, you can boost bass output by feeding
front left and right channel bass sounds to the subwoofer.

and

In addition to LFE channel sounds, the subwoofer outputs
front left and right channel bass sounds.

Unfortunately, what is not clear are precisely what is meant by "bass sounds". The assumption, based on the name of this function, is that the fronts will receive the full range of sounds identified by the Integra destined for it, while the sub will receive whatever is deemed bass as well. That way, if the mains receive, but cannot effectively output some of the lower frequencies it receives, the sub will do the heavy lifting.

I suppose the approach for using Audyssey is to first enable Double Bass and then run Audyssey which should make the output adjustments for the frequencies in the appropriate bass region across the mains and sub.

But what you're telling us is to disable Double Bass and set a crossover. Question is: what happens to the signals below, say 50hz if you happen to choose that as the crossover? Does the Integra toss these away or direct them to the sub?

I'm baffled....

If you set the cross-over on the mains at 50 Hz, it should direct any signals below 50 Hz to the subwoofer, if it is working properly.

Mark
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Originally Posted by Hughmc View Post

Correct me if I am wrong, but isn't it an impossibility to have all seats have equal optimal sound in the theatre/room? There can and only will be one sweet spot. Some have said it is a limitation of equipment or software such as Audyssey, but again it seems unless each seat had its own set of speakers, I don't see how every seat in any room could ever be made to sound exactly alike.

In my opinion, you can only have one sweet spot.

Hence the importance for placing the first microphone measurement at the primary listening position where levels and distance are calculated.

I think the other measurements are intended to create an acoustic bubble around the primary listening position. Depending on how large you want that bubble to be, that determines the other microphone positions. I would further opine the larger the bubble, the more you are stretching the resources of Audyssey.

Theoretically: If you have a finite number of filters, the tighter the grouping of microphone positions, the more resources are allocated to fewer peaks / nulls. This should result in better sound in the primary listening position.

I am sure if I am way off base, somebody will slap me.

Mark
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post #7229 of 72585 Old 10-07-2008, 11:29 AM
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Originally Posted by sjschaff View Post

Question is: what happens to the signals below, say 50hz if you happen to choose that as the crossover? Does the Integra toss these away or direct them to the sub?

I'm baffled....


Steve,

When you designate a crossover frequency, you are automatically setting the speakers to Small. That means that all content below that frequency will be sent to the subwoofer.

If you don't do that and leave the speakers as Full Band, then the content below 50 Hz will try to be reproduced by your main speaker, but will most likely not be heard as they are not capable of reproducing it at the required sound pressure level.

Double Bass is a bandaid solution that tries to address this, but in my opinion fails. It sends the bass below 50 Hz to both the sub and the speaker when the speaker is set to Full Band. Since 50 Hz is not a sharp cut off, what happens in that range is that you have overlapping bass that is really doubled and thus not correct.

We have been told directly by manufacturers that Double Bass (or LFE+Main) was put in to appease to those who just can't understand why their speakers should be set to Small. It's like a personal insult to them. They just don't realize the huge benefits of bass management.

Our efforts now are in trying to convince manufacturers to completely do away with Large (Full Band) and Small designations. All speakers are small with the exception of an extremely small handful that could possibly handle 20 Hz and below at the sound pressure levels needed. And even then, the amplifier requirements would be so high that it wouldn't make much practical sense.

Chris

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post #7230 of 72585 Old 10-07-2008, 11:36 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hughmc View Post

Correct me if I am wrong, but isn't it an impossibility to have all seats have equal optimal sound in the theatre/room? There can and only will be one sweet spot. Some have said it is a limitation of equipment or software such as Audyssey, but again it seems unless each seat had its own set of speakers, I don't see how every seat in any room could ever be made to sound exactly alike.

Hi Hugh,

You're not wrong, but we are dealing with multiple conditions, some of which are more important than others. When we are setting up timing and speaker levels, true there is only one sweet spot. So for those audio characteristics, there can only be one ideal location. I don't have a "Golden Ear" so as Gary has suggested, I might not be able to hear the fact that the timing is off at non sweet spot locations. Perhaps others with better ears might be able to hear the difference.

An other, perhaps more critical audio condition to overall sound quality, has to do with the modal response of the room. Audyssey looks for similar patterns in acoustic conditions at different measurement locations. These similarities may be due to the different measurements being subjected to the same or similar modal response. When it finds similarities it groups them in patterns and then it devised filters appropriate to those patterns.

From the Audyssey website:



Quote:


MultEQ looks at patterns in the time domain responses and classifies them into clusters based on the similarities in those patterns, typically in 3-5 groups. A representative response is created from each cluster, and a final response is then created from grouping the representatives. That response is then used to create the EQ filter.

Since Audyssey makes filter adjustments to make all locations approach the same target frequency response curve, it tends to make all locations sound similiar, while smoothing the frequency response. It's not perfect, so the frequency responses won't ever be identical, but it's processing power permits it to achieve this balancing act amoung multiple locations faster, and generally better than what we can achieve manually through trial and error using a parametric equalizer.

Larry
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