"Official" Audyssey thread (FAQ in post #51779) - Page 2414 - AVS Forum
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post #72391 of 72417 Old 09-23-2014, 09:02 AM
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Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post
If you are having to ask that, then you won't have read the Audyssey 101, linked in my sig. I'd advise reading it and following each step to the letter if you are new to Audyssey. This will ensure that you get a great calibration right from the get-go.
I have read all the instructions, it mention the length should be around 12 inch from the seat back, but I just wonder if I have 12 inch space between the seat back, the real distance will be move forward 3 - 4 inches, will it affect the overall balance of the sound, like the surround back speaker louder than the front speaker, or the subwoofer distance will be shorter than the real subwoofer distance?
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post #72392 of 72417 Old 09-23-2014, 12:47 PM
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Okay, it was a bad mic that came with my 4520. Used the 7009 mic with the 4520 and was able to benefit from DEQ downstairs. No more over powering bass (don't have surround downstairs). And all this time I could have had a better experience with my 4520 in the media room

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I picked up my new Marantz 7009 last Thursday and got to hook it up over the weekend. Kbarnes and Mogorf you guys will find this very interesting, DEQ now sounds great!!! Every thing sounds even, the surrounds, 4 ceiling speakers , and subs sound great unlike with the 4520. The center channel is much more clear on all content and I didn't have to bump it up dB or two.

The other very strange thing is the 7009 said my subs were way to high. When level matching they are above in the red. The 4520 never said they were too high as I had them match at about 71 dB (through Audyessy) because of all the bass DEQ gave (I ran Audyessy a number of times on the 4520 all with the same results). But even before I had the 4520 I had level matched each sub to 75 dB with an SLP meter.

Not sure why the 7009 would have produced very different results but I am now a fan of DEQ.

To further test things, I moved the 4520 downstairs to see how Audyssey and DEQ would sound on my 3.1 setup in my living room. Living room is large, open concept with very high ceiling. Thought maybe the 4520 just didn't like my mediaroom but then thought why would the 7009 produce better results than the 4520? Anyway, after running Audyssey and applying DEQ the bass is still too powerfull just like the mediaroom.

Any ideas as to why the two different resutls between the 7009 and 4520? Could my mic for calibration been bad on the 4520? Thought it was interesting and wanted to pass along.



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post #72393 of 72417 Old 09-23-2014, 01:58 PM
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Awesome. Glad we have finally solved the riddle!
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post #72394 of 72417 Old 09-23-2014, 02:00 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bigham16 View Post
Okay, it was a bad mic that came with my 4520. Used the 7009 mic with the 4520 and was able to benefit from DEQ downstairs. No more over powering bass (don't have surround downstairs). And all this time I could have had a better experience with my 4520 in the media room


I think this happens quite a bit, with all of the complaints that I have heard of "Audyssey ruined my sound". I'm not saying that is true for all experiences, but most likely for quite a few of them. It's definitely handy to have another compatible mic to try.
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post #72395 of 72417 Old 09-23-2014, 06:47 PM
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Experimenting with different "variables" is always beneficial.
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post #72396 of 72417 Old 09-25-2014, 07:23 PM
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I've never really understood why the following quote from the FAQs is true:

In a typical living room, the acoustical conditions require a flat curve up to a certain frequency, and then a roll-off. This roll-off allows the proper balancing of the direct and reverberant sound at high frequencies.

Shouldn't direct sound be a lot brighter at your ears?

Are movies mastered with too much treble? If that is done, why do they bother, since the x-curve in theaters rolls off the treble to a degree?

I agree that most of my movies sound better with Audyssey Reference's roll-off. A few do not, and require Audyssey Flat.

Why wouldn't the roll-off be needed for ordinary music CDs, SACDs, etc. as well? Or is it? If so, wouldn't the imaginary perfectly flat speaker, in a room that magically contributes nothing to the sound, be too shrill unless a treble roll off (like Audyssey Reference) was applied?

For years (no, decades) before room treatments such as absorbers and diffusers were popular, purist "Golden Ears" audiophiles listened to pretty flat speakers in ordinary rooms with ordinary furniture, usually with a rug on the floor. I know of none (at least in my circle) who rolled off the treble. A few goosed up the bass, to compensate for bass roll-off in Lp records (so they said). Today, magazines like Stereophile rarely mention applying treble roll-off, but Stereophile's founder, J. Gordon Holt (?) did once (in the '90s ... '80s?) write an article called "Down with Flat."
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post #72397 of 72417 Old 09-25-2014, 07:26 PM
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It all depends.

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post #72398 of 72417 Old 09-26-2014, 07:33 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by garygarrison View Post
I've never really understood why the following quote from the FAQs is true:

In a typical living room, the acoustical conditions require a flat curve up to a certain frequency, and then a roll-off. This roll-off allows the proper balancing of the direct and reverberant sound at high frequencies.

Shouldn't direct sound be a lot brighter at your ears?

Are movies mastered with too much treble? If that is done, why do they bother, since the x-curve in theaters rolls off the treble to a degree?

I agree that most of my movies sound better with Audyssey Reference's roll-off. A few do not, and require Audyssey Flat.

Why wouldn't the roll-off be needed for ordinary music CDs, SACDs, etc. as well? Or is it? If so, wouldn't the imaginary perfectly flat speaker, in a room that magically contributes nothing to the sound, be too shrill unless a treble roll off (like Audyssey Reference) was applied?

For years (no, decades) before room treatments such as absorbers and diffusers were popular, purist "Golden Ears" audiophiles listened to pretty flat speakers in ordinary rooms with ordinary furniture, usually with a rug on the floor. I know of none (at least in my circle) who rolled off the treble. A few goosed up the bass, to compensate for bass roll-off in Lp records (so they said). Today, magazines like Stereophile rarely mention applying treble roll-off, but Stereophile's founder, J. Gordon Holt (?) did once (in the '90s ... '80s?) write an article called "Down with Flat."
movies are mixed on systems calibrated to (probably a successor to the decades old) X-Curve, which has about twice the treble rolloff of the Audyssey curve. With that much less treble energy in the mixers' playback system, it's possible a movie would indeed likely be brighter than music mixed on an imaginary average music studio system and mastered by Bob Ludwig or whoever, because AFAIK they don't have an intentional rolloff in the treble in their playback systems.

FWIW, Chris K was insistent that their listening test data indicated that the Audyssey curve functioned best for music too. Perhaps related to the added measured treble energy in the reflections from speaker off-axis output, which our ear/brain systems might or might not "hear" as part of the original signal (if it arrives late enough, it's ambiance . . . .

I'm an agnostic, although at present my system uses the Audyssey curve for everything. I'm thinking, though about using my Denon's "bypass left and right" Audyssey setting just for giggles, kinda in light of the lighter touch of XT32 above the Schroeder frequency.
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post #72399 of 72417 Old 09-26-2014, 11:30 AM
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Originally Posted by JHAz View Post
movies are mixed on systems calibrated to (probably a successor to the decades old) X-Curve, which has about twice the treble rolloff of the Audyssey curve. With that much less treble energy in the mixers' playback system, it's possible a movie would indeed likely be brighter than music mixed on an imaginary average music studio system and mastered by Bob Ludwig or whoever, because AFAIK they don't have an intentional rolloff in the treble in their playback systems.

FWIW, Chris K was insistent that their listening test data indicated that the Audyssey curve functioned best for music too. Perhaps related to the added measured treble energy in the reflections from speaker off-axis output, which our ear/brain systems might or might not "hear" as part of the original signal (if it arrives late enough, it's ambiance . . . .

I'm an agnostic, although at present my system uses the Audyssey curve for everything. I'm thinking, though about using my Denon's "bypass left and right" Audyssey setting just for giggles, kinda in light of the lighter touch of XT32 above the Schroeder frequency.
The "It all depends" statement was probably not made entirely in jest. I have always preferred "Audyssey Flat" in my room for my music, and music is my primary concern with respect to audio quality. I sometimes switch to "Audyssey" when I watch movies, but often leave my setting on "Flat" for that as well.

I accept the statement that the majority of people prefer more treble roll-off than I seem to, but it is still just a majority preference and not some kind of absolute. There are so many variables with respect to room, equipment, hearing, preference, etc. I think that trying various options to determine what we like best is probably our only sane recourse. Trying to fit our own specific preferences into a general FAQ statement or Audyssey recommendation just can't work in every case. And I say that with all due deference with respect to Audyssey recommendations and to the FAQ.


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post #72400 of 72417 Old 09-26-2014, 11:51 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mthomas47 View Post

I accept the statement that the majority of people prefer more treble roll-off than I seem to, but it is still just a majority preference and not some kind of absolute. There are so many variables with respect to room, equipment, hearing, preference, etc. I think that trying various options to determine what we like best is probably our only sane recourse. Trying to fit our own specific preferences into a general FAQ statement or Audyssey recommendation just can't work in every case. And I say that with all due deference with respect to Audyssey recommendations and to the FAQ.
Yes - the FAQ attempts to give 'best advice' that will suit most people in most circumstances. There will always be exceptions and, of course, personal preference is also a factor. I tried to mention exceptions in the FAQ where it would illuminate rather than confuse, but at the end of the day, the thread is here too, for people who have situations that don't quite fit a standard answer.

WRT to the treble rolloff, there could be numerous reasons why some prefer flat and some prefer reference, as you suggest - mostly to do with the nature of the room and the speakers.


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post #72401 of 72417 Old 09-26-2014, 01:47 PM
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Thanks, guys.

I hear that some Blu-ray manufacturers roll-off the treble on the BD itself, so if you used Audyssey Reference, with its roll-off, you would probably get too much roll off. Rumor has it that Disney is one of these, but I don't know if that applies to their other lines like Miramax, Hollywood pictures, Touchstone, etc.

Does anyone know where we could get a list of BD companies that pre-attenuate the treble, and those who don't? Short of previewing every movie long enough to sample the music and dialog, I can think of no way other than a list .
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post #72402 of 72417 Old 09-26-2014, 11:49 PM
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Good question; I too wouldn't mind to see such a list, if it does exist.

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Hi all,

Quick question concerning XT32, and where I can increase the volume of the sub. Here is my conundrum: For the initial calibration, the highest I could set the sub gain was -14, so that XT32 would not bury the proverbial needle on my trim (below -12 on my AVR). I then had to raise the trim by about 4.5 just to get it flat with the mains. I finally ended up raising the trim a total of 9.5dB from where XT32 had set it, which equates to about 5dB hot (it is now at -1dB on the AVR, with the sub gain still at -14), and I do not use DynEQ.

SVS recommends that the gain be set as close to '0' as possible, to maximize dynamics of the Sledge amp. I understand that you should not mess with the sub gain after calibration (all adjustments should be made in the AVR trim), but wouldn't that only be a problem if DynEQ was being used? Since I now have the head room (post-calibration), I would like to reduce the AVR trim back to -9, and raise the sub gain to compensate. I cannot get all the way to '0', but at least I can get closer. Will that mess with the Audyssey calibration? Thanks!

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My pre/pro sub channel's level is @ minus nine decibel (-9dB), and my two subs are @ 9 o'clock gain settings (both). ...With Audyssey MultEQ XT32. ...And I like it, good enough for me.

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post #72405 of 72417 Old Yesterday, 07:13 PM
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"Official" Audyssey thread (FAQ in post #51779)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vader424242 View Post
Hi all,

Quick question concerning XT32, and where I can increase the volume of the sub. Here is my conundrum: For the initial calibration, the highest I could set the sub gain was -14, so that XT32 would not bury the proverbial needle on my trim (below -12 on my AVR). I then had to raise the trim by about 4.5 just to get it flat with the mains. I finally ended up raising the trim a total of 9.5dB from where XT32 had set it, which equates to about 5dB hot (it is now at -1dB on the AVR, with the sub gain still at -14), and I do not use DynEQ.

SVS recommends that the gain be set as close to '0' as possible, to maximize dynamics of the Sledge amp. I understand that you should not mess with the sub gain after calibration (all adjustments should be made in the AVR trim), but wouldn't that only be a problem if DynEQ was being used? Since I now have the head room (post-calibration), I would like to reduce the AVR trim back to -9, and raise the sub gain to compensate. I cannot get all the way to '0', but at least I can get closer. Will that mess with the Audyssey calibration? Thanks!

If you change the gain on the sub you have to rerun audyssey


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post #72406 of 72417 Old Yesterday, 07:59 PM
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If you change the gain on the sub you have to rerun audyssey
Incorrect.

The only reason not to change the gain on the sub is because with the digital to in the AVR it's easy to revert back to reference. It's "best practice" but there is no harm to the Audyssey filters from gain /level change.

If your sub has digital gain setting then it's a non issue either way.
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post #72407 of 72417 Old Yesterday, 08:48 PM
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^^^

Thanks!

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Quote:
Originally Posted by batpig View Post
Incorrect.



The only reason not to change the gain on the sub is because with the digital to in the AVR it's easy to revert back to reference. It's "best practice" but there is no harm to the Audyssey filters from gain /level change.



If your sub has digital gain setting then it's a non issue either way.

So once audyssey is run, the filters are in place. So regardless where you turn the bass up (avr or gain knob), I guess bass is bass and it doesn't matter? I've only had audysey for about a year, but I know several people have told me the opposite. I'll take your word for it that its not mandatory just best practice. That's likely to save me some headaches in the future[emoji106]


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post #72409 of 72417 Old Yesterday, 09:49 PM
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There are many reasons why one would want (or need) to run Audyssey multiple times. If you forget to turn down the gain knob on the speaker before running Audyssey again, each time Audyssey will just keep turning its own trim level down to compensate and then you'll have to adjust it again manually. It's easier and more reproducible to change the subwoofer trim level in the receiver after running Audyssey than it is to twiddle the speaker's gain knob (assuming a non-digital setting on the sub).

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vader424242 View Post
Hi all,

Quick question concerning XT32, and where I can increase the volume of the sub. Here is my conundrum: For the initial calibration, the highest I could set the sub gain was -14, so that XT32 would not bury the proverbial needle on my trim (below -12 on my AVR). I then had to raise the trim by about 4.5 just to get it flat with the mains. I finally ended up raising the trim a total of 9.5dB from where XT32 had set it, which equates to about 5dB hot (it is now at -1dB on the AVR, with the sub gain still at -14), and I do not use DynEQ.

SVS recommends that the gain be set as close to '0' as possible, to maximize dynamics of the Sledge amp. I understand that you should not mess with the sub gain after calibration (all adjustments should be made in the AVR trim), but wouldn't that only be a problem if DynEQ was being used? Since I now have the head room (post-calibration), I would like to reduce the AVR trim back to -9, and raise the sub gain to compensate. I cannot get all the way to '0', but at least I can get closer. Will that mess with the Audyssey calibration? Thanks!
From the FAQ:

f)4. If I want to run my subs a little 'hot' where should I make the changes?

BTW, batpig's advice is correct.


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Quote:
Originally Posted by Selden Ball View Post
There are many reasons why one would want (or need) to run Audyssey multiple times. If you forget to turn down the gain knob on the speaker before running Audyssey again, each time Audyssey will just keep turning its own trim level down to compensate and then you'll have to adjust it again manually. It's easier and more reproducible to change the subwoofer trim level in the receiver after running Audyssey than it is to twiddle the speaker's gain knob (assuming a non-digital setting on the sub).
My problem is that if I turned the gain on the sub up beyond -14 and re-ran Audyssey, the limit of -12 on the AVR would have been hit. I wanted to know if I could "back door" it by allowing Audyssey to do it's thing, and then adjusting the gain after the fact. Thank you all for your help!

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Quote:
Originally Posted by garygarrison View Post
I've never really understood why the following quote from the FAQs is true:

In a typical living room, the acoustical conditions require a flat curve up to a certain frequency, and then a roll-off. This roll-off allows the proper balancing of the direct and reverberant sound at high frequencies.

Shouldn't direct sound be a lot brighter at your ears?

Are movies mastered with too much treble? If that is done, why do they bother, since the x-curve in theaters rolls off the treble to a degree?

I agree that most of my movies sound better with Audyssey Reference's roll-off. A few do not, and require Audyssey Flat.

Why wouldn't the roll-off be needed for ordinary music CDs, SACDs, etc. as well? Or is it? If so, wouldn't the imaginary perfectly flat speaker, in a room that magically contributes nothing to the sound, be too shrill unless a treble roll off (like Audyssey Reference) was applied?

For years (no, decades) before room treatments such as absorbers and diffusers were popular, purist "Golden Ears" audiophiles listened to pretty flat speakers in ordinary rooms with ordinary furniture, usually with a rug on the floor. I know of none (at least in my circle) who rolled off the treble. A few goosed up the bass, to compensate for bass roll-off in Lp records (so they said). Today, magazines like Stereophile rarely mention applying treble roll-off, but Stereophile's founder, J. Gordon Holt (?) did once (in the '90s ... '80s?) write an article called "Down with Flat."
Assuming no significant absorption, direct aound and reflected sound, considered separately, should be equally bright. BUt those of us who live in houses rather than concert halls don't hear direct and reflected sound separately. We hear direct plus reflected sound (at least some of the refletions) as a single sound. And AIUI, the treble components psychoacoustically add to create a brighter overall sound in the room than the direct sound of the speaker. It's why, AIUI, many speaker manufacturers are designing with a downward sloping off-axis response. Less treble in the off axis emissions means less treble reflected to the listening position, yielding less brightness overall.

But on balance IMO, for non-remastered movies, the treble energy differences caused by calibration of the mixing room to the X curve could overcome any ameliorative effects of one's speakers' less-trebly off-axis response and may benefit from further EQ where (at least not all) music reordings would, because there's no X curve (or any other standard) for music recording, mixing or mastering.
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I then had to raise the trim by about 4.5 just to get it flat with the mains. I finally ended up raising the trim a total of 9.5dB from where XT32 had set it, which equates to about 5dB hot (it is now at -1dB on the AVR, with the sub gain still at -14), and I do not use DynEQ.
Wouldn't this equate to running the sub 9.5db "hot"?? I'm confused on how you figured it's only 5db "hot".

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Well the first part says he had to raise if 4.5dB to "get it flat with the mains", so I'm assuming that he used an SPL meter to level match so is not "counting" that in the "hot" calculation

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Hi all,

Quick question concerning XT32, and where I can increase the volume of the sub. Here is my conundrum: For the initial calibration, the highest I could set the sub gain was -14, so that XT32 would not bury the proverbial needle on my trim (below -12 on my AVR). I then had to raise the trim by about 4.5 just to get it flat with the mains. I finally ended up raising the trim a total of 9.5dB from where XT32 had set it, which equates to about 5dB hot (it is now at -1dB on the AVR, with the sub gain still at -14), and I do not use DynEQ.

SVS recommends that the gain be set as close to '0' as possible, to maximize dynamics of the Sledge amp. I understand that you should not mess with the sub gain after calibration (all adjustments should be made in the AVR trim), but wouldn't that only be a problem if DynEQ was being used? Since I now have the head room (post-calibration), I would like to reduce the AVR trim back to -9, and raise the sub gain to compensate. I cannot get all the way to '0', but at least I can get closer. Will that mess with the Audyssey calibration? Thanks!
Well i think that svs recommended the avr trim to be as close as possible to 0 and not the gain on sub...as in my example it is impossible to have gain close to zero...i have gain on -18 and trim on avr at -4 when i put it 4 db hot from audyssey...i think that is what they ment
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Assuming no significant absorption, direct aound and reflected sound, considered separately, should be equally bright. BUt those of us who live in houses rather than concert halls don't hear direct and reflected sound separately. We hear direct plus reflected sound (at least some of the refletions) as a single sound. And AIUI, the treble components psychoacoustically add to create a brighter overall sound in the room than the direct sound of the speaker. It's why, AIUI, many speaker manufacturers are designing with a downward sloping off-axis response. Less treble in the off axis emissions means less treble reflected to the listening position, yielding less brightness overall.

But on balance IMO, for non-remastered movies, the treble energy differences caused by calibration of the mixing room to the X curve could overcome any ameliorative effects of one's speakers' less-trebly off-axis response and may benefit from further EQ where (at least not all) music reordings would, because there's no X curve (or any other standard) for music recording, mixing or mastering.
I'm not sure I understand each stage a modern movie recording goes through, on its way to the ears of the folk in a Home Theater. Is the following correct? I have compiled it from different articles, but they could contain errors.
  • The X curve has been found to be the most tolerable for a regular public theater, most of which have quite a bit of reverberation, but the nearest reflections tend to be delayed and distant (except for those from the seats and floor, which are often damped down with carpet and cloth seat/back covers). The X curve would make the sound one hears from distant theater speakers behind the screen substantially similar to the sound from a nearfield group of "flat"speakers. Each theater is tuned electro-acoustically to produce the X curve from the designated sample seats. It happens that to produce the X curve, smaller theaters require less roll-off than large theaters, so there are roll-off guidelines to approximate X in theaters of various sizes, but they are no substitutes for measurement.
  • The control room used by the movie mixers could be any size (?), but it is probably smaller than most movie theaters, but bigger than many Home Theaters. A smaller control room would require less electrical treble roll-off than a big theater to achieve the X curve acoustically -- the point is for the control room to have frequency characteristics very similar to that of the big theaters the movie will eventually show in.
  • In the typical, smaller, Home Theaters, a very different electrical EQ would be necessary to match the X curve acoustically. The goal would be to match the sound (not the electrical EQ), at least as to frequency balance, of both the control room and the big theater, bringing us to three different electrical curves to achieve the same X curve in one theater, one control room, and one Home Theater. The only reason for wanting to match the X curve at home would be that the audio people who mixed the soundtrack were listening to monitors EQed to X in the control room, and we want the opportunity to hear what they heard. Audyssey's best guess as to what mild treble roll-off (acoustically and electrically less than in either the control room or the big theater), in most Home Theaters, is Audyssey Reference (or "Movie," or whatever). I presume that they think Audysey Reference makes the sound at home match both the sound in the control room and the the big theater, even though they are applying less electrical roll-off. For most movies mixed in an "X" control room, Audyssey FLAT (the other option) would be too bright.
  • The monkey wrench thrown into the works is that some Blu-ray companies pre-roll-off the sound on their disks (perhaps because they assume most people don't have Audyssey). If we only knew just which these disks these were, we could start right out playing them at Audyssey FLAT, instead of switching over part way into the movie. So far, my ears tell me Audyssey Reference works most often, but I need Audyssey FLAT for some movies.

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Any word yet on how Dynamic EQ (and dyn vol for that matter) will be affected by ATMOS? for instance will back heights be amplified, but not front heights
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