"Official" Audyssey thread (FAQ in post #51779) - Page 2440 - AVS Forum
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post #73171 of 73200 Old 12-19-2014, 09:45 AM
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Ok thank you Kbarnes. So i shouldn't have to worry about any clipping of the signal with Audyssey engaged would i ?
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post #73172 of 73200 Old 12-19-2014, 09:52 AM
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Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post
No need to run Audyssey again IMO. What you have done is no different to changing the level of the trims, if the 3dB difference is the same across all your channels. Dynamic EQ might be affected a little but as the new level is 3dB down (not up) that might actually help with the overboost that DEQ gives to surrounds.

No doubt you will be running Audyssey again soon anyway, so it will resolve itself
Thanks for agreeing, Keith, and for pointing out the 3dB difference between Gen 1 and Gen 2. Since I have done several calibrations over the past week as I was struggling with the MiniDSP implementation, I wasn't keen on doing another one right away. But you are 100% correct--another calibration cannot be far down the road.
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post #73173 of 73200 Old 12-19-2014, 11:03 AM
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Will AVS ever fix this bug which prevents you from seeing the last page of a thread in certain circumstances?

To get to this page I had to use Safari. It's actually pretty nice - new version it seems.

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post #73174 of 73200 Old 12-19-2014, 11:10 AM
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Originally Posted by Titan319 View Post
Ok thank you Kbarnes. So i shouldn't have to worry about any clipping of the signal with Audyssey engaged would i ?
I'm not sure what you are asking, sorry.

If both units have XLR then that is taken care of automatically. No more reason to worry about clipping than if you connect with RCA.

Last edited by kbarnes701; 12-19-2014 at 11:24 AM.
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post #73175 of 73200 Old 12-19-2014, 11:55 AM
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Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post
I'm not sure what you are asking, sorry.

If both units have XLR then that is taken care of automatically. No more reason to worry about clipping than if you connect with RCA.
What i ment to say was using xlr's there is a voltage output of 2.4 volts rms vs 1.2 volts rms using Rca's and my Emotiva Xpa-5 only needs 1.2 volts to reach max power since it has a 32db input gain. I just wanted to make sure this would not be a issue.
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post #73176 of 73200 Old 12-19-2014, 12:03 PM
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Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post
Will AVS ever fix this bug which prevents you from seeing the last page of a thread in certain circumstances?

To get to this page I had to use Safari. It's actually pretty nice - new version it seems.
I have reported this issue a number of times, but Mike Lang usually has a reason why he can't duplicate it, and if he can't duplicate it, how can he report it to be fixed? So, the short answer is No, it will never be fixed.
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post #73177 of 73200 Unread 12-19-2014, 12:26 PM
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Originally Posted by Titan319 View Post
What i ment to say was using xlr's there is a voltage output of 2.4 volts rms vs 1.2 volts rms using Rca's and my Emotiva Xpa-5 only needs 1.2 volts to reach max power since it has a 32db input gain. I just wanted to make sure this would not be a issue.
If the processor/AVR has XLR outputs and the Emotiva amp has XLR inputs, I can't imagine that they would not work correctly together. But I don't use XLR personally so cannot speak from experience.
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post #73178 of 73200 Unread 12-19-2014, 12:27 PM
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Originally Posted by AustinJerry View Post
I have reported this issue a number of times, but Mike Lang usually has a reason why he can't duplicate it, and if he can't duplicate it, how can he report it to be fixed? So, the short answer is No, it will never be fixed.
I can fix it by clearing my cache in Firefox, exiting FF and reloading FF. But what a pain.
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post #73179 of 73200 Unread 12-19-2014, 09:05 PM
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Originally Posted by NorthSky View Post
1. No need to rerun the Audyssey calibration.
You are thinking right, I truly believe, in that by changing the trim levels of your three front mains in your AVR has no effect on Audyssey's FIR filters.
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Originally Posted by NorthSky View Post
2. Experiment: Rerun the Audyssey calibration, and measure with REW, and compare to your previous calibration on them three front mains of yours.
That way you'll have your confirmation.
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So let me see if I understand your suggestion. I would re-run the calibration, and re-measure to see if anything changed. If nothing changed, I just wasted my time, except that if I ever swap out power amps again in the future, I will know whether to re-run the calibration or not.

Let me ask you this--why not simply re-measure without running the calibration again? If everything looks the same, a new calibration would not be required. Or perhaps you didn't think of this?
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You do as you please; it's your system setup. ...Me I just shared some comments (two suggestions); exactly like you asked.
...
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post #73180 of 73200 Unread 12-20-2014, 10:09 AM
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Thanks again for your help Kbarnes i just picked up a spl meter to make sure all the levels are even after i hook up the xlr's today. When im running the test tones in the processor do i need to disengage Audyssey? And also Is it really true in most cases that xlr measures worst than rca's ?

Last edited by Titan319; 12-20-2014 at 10:15 AM.
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post #73181 of 73200 Unread 12-20-2014, 10:42 AM
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Originally Posted by Titan319 View Post
Thanks again for your help Kbarnes i just picked up a spl meter to make sure all the levels are even after i hook up the xlr's today. When im running the test tones in the processor do i need to disengage Audyssey? And also Is it really true in most cases that xlr measures worst than rca's ?
This FAQ answer will give you the skinny on measuring SPL with tones:

e)3. Why is it a bad idea to use your AVR test tones and a SPL meter to check trim levels?


XLR and RCA should be identical sonically in all circumstances but one: if you are experiencing noise in the signal as a result of very long cable runs picking up interference from close-by higher level signals such as electrical noise from parallel power cables, then XLR will help eliminate or reduce that noise. If you do not run very long cables, and you do not have power, speaker and low level signal cables all bunched parallel to each other, then RCA will be sonically no better, or worse, than XLR. If you have to cross power cables with signal cables, do so at right angles not along the length of the wires and this usually solves any induced noise issues. XLR cables are commonly used in pro studios, where very long cable runs are common and where they will be literally dozens of cables of all sorts channeled through various ducting. This doesn't usually apply in domestic circumstances though but has given rise to the notion (wrongly) that if Pros use XLR then they must automatically be 'better' than RCA.
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post #73182 of 73200 Unread 12-20-2014, 10:55 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post
This FAQ answer will give you the skinny on measuring SPL with tones:

e)3. Why is it a bad idea to use your AVR test tones and a SPL meter to check trim levels?


XLR and RCA should be identical sonically in all circumstances but one: if you are experiencing noise in the signal as a result of very long cable runs picking up interference from close-by higher level signals such as electrical noise from parallel power cables, then XLR will help eliminate or reduce that noise. If you do not run very long cables, and you do not have power, speaker and low level signal cables all bunched parallel to each other, then RCA will be sonically no better, or worse, than XLR. If you have to cross power cables with signal cables, do so at right angles not along the length of the wires and this usually solves any induced noise issues. XLR cables are commonly used in pro studios, where very long cable runs are common and where they will be literally dozens of cables of all sorts channeled through various ducting. This doesn't usually apply in domestic circumstances though but has given rise to the notion (wrongly) that if Pros use XLR then they must automatically be 'better' than RCA.
Ok i looked at your post and i will not use the spl meter without a test tone disc. However would it be correct if i just take out the rca's then replace the connections with xlr's and set my source input level at -6 to compensate for the 6db gain? That way i am leaving all the levels the same?
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post #73183 of 73200 Unread 12-20-2014, 10:57 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AustinJerry View Post
I have reported this issue a number of times, but Mike Lang usually has a reason why he can't duplicate it, and if he can't duplicate it, how can he report it to be fixed? So, the short answer is No, it will never be fixed.
I see this too:and it is frustrating

I can usually resolve it by:

user CP/ edit options / thread display options/ set number of posts to display to forum default

I have Firefox set to automatically clear cache, but some threads with hundreds of pages take a long time to load and become problematic: that is why I prefer to start a part 2 thread after a while...this thread is one of the oldest and takes forever to load

Time to start Part 2 for this Audyssey thread: it is getting long in the tooth

please take the high road in every post
if you see a problematic post, please do not quote it or respond to it: report it to the mods to handle

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post #73184 of 73200 Unread 12-20-2014, 10:59 AM
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Originally Posted by Titan319 View Post
Ok i looked at your post and i will not use the spl meter without a test tone disc. However would it be correct if i just take out the rca's then replace the connections with xlr's and set my source input level at -6 to compensate for the 6db gain? That way i am leaving all the levels the same?
I suggest re-running Audyssey.

The trims are limited to +/- 12 dB, so you might not be able to adjust them far enough.

ETA:

On most receivers, the input trims are unique to each input. It's better to adjust the common trims, not the per-input trims.
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post #73185 of 73200 Unread 12-20-2014, 11:06 AM
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Originally Posted by Titan319 View Post
Ok i looked at your post and i will not use the spl meter without a test tone disc. However would it be correct if i just take out the rca's then replace the connections with xlr's and set my source input level at -6 to compensate for the 6db gain? That way i am leaving all the levels the same?
As Selden says, that may not be a good idea. XLR output is 6dB higher than RCA. In my own system, which is in a small room, with reasonably sensitive speakers and gruntolicious amplification, if I use XLR, my speaker trims go to -12dB, which is their maxed out setting, so I have no way to know if they really wanted to go to -15dB or whatever. This means I cannot use XLR here for that reason. When I switch to RCA my speaker trims get set at about -9dB. You have no way of knowing if this would be the same for you, so I would suggest you complete your cabling to how you want it and then run Audyssey afresh. That way you will be certain everything is as it should be.
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post #73186 of 73200 Unread 12-20-2014, 11:07 AM
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Originally Posted by Selden Ball View Post
I suggest re-running Audyssey.

The trims are limited to +/- 12 dB, so you might not be able to adjust them far enough.
That's exactly the issue my surrounds are close to my MLP so im trying to compensate for the -12 numbers. I guess there is no easy fix not to mention there is a pad 6db on my sub for the xlr connection so there is no 6db increase if i use rca or xlr's on my SVS pb 12 plus. That's another issue lol today i can't win. I guess the one very big positive is i do love the XT32 vs the XT on my Denon 4308. I can finally apply it to music without a cupped sound.

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post #73187 of 73200 Unread 12-20-2014, 11:14 AM
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That's exactly the issue my surrounds are close to my MLP so im trying to compensate for the -12 numbers. I guess there is no easy fix not to mention there is a pad 6db on my sub for the xlr connection so there is no 6db increase if i use rca or xlr's on my SVS pb 12 plus. That's another issue lol today i can't win. I guess the one very big positive is i do love the XT32 vs the XT on my Denon 4308. I can finally apply it to music without a cupped sound.
I'd forget using XLR. Unless you have a noise issue, they have no sonic advantages over RCA. It seems odd to use XLR on the sub and then put a 6dB pad in - you may as well just use RCA and be done with it. If your surrounds are maxing out at -12dB with XLR then switching to RCA may well solve it for you, as it does with me.

XLR has a nicer connection than RCA, but how many times do you make and break the connection? In the Pro world where they do this every day, on gigs for example, and frequently in studio setups, a more robust connector can be beneficial - but for consumers who typically make a connection one time and then hardly ever touch it again, the benefit is negligible to none.
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post #73188 of 73200 Unread 12-20-2014, 11:33 AM
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Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post
I'd forget using XLR. Unless you have a noise issue, they have no sonic advantages over RCA. It seems odd to use XLR on the sub and then put a 6dB pad in - you may as well just use RCA and be done with it. If your surrounds are maxing out at -12dB with XLR then switching to RCA may well solve it for you, as it does with me.

XLR has a nicer connection than RCA, but how many times do you make and break the connection? In the Pro world where they do this every day, on gigs for example, and frequently in studio setups, a more robust connector can be beneficial - but for consumers who typically make a connection one time and then hardly ever touch it again, the benefit is negligible to none.
Yeah with rca i have no issues i am within the -6db across all channels. I bought the Marantz 7702 vs the 7709 reciever for the xlr connections. But i guess i could add amps later for the atmos. I know this is subjective Barnes but is the processor better than the receiver because there is more space between components and a dedicated power supply in your opinion.
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post #73189 of 73200 Unread 12-20-2014, 11:47 AM
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Yeah with rca i have no issues i am within the -6db across all channels. I bought the Marantz 7702 vs the 7709 reciever for the xlr connections. But i guess i could add amps later for the atmos. I know this is subjective Barnes but is the processor better than the receiver because there is more space between components and a dedicated power supply in your opinion.
I have had flagship processors and I currently have an AVR which feeds all-external amps. IMO there is no audible sonic difference between them.

Back in the day, there was an argument that keeping the tiny preamp signals well away from the muscular power amp signals was beneficial, and indeed in those days it may have been. But with modern units, using modern design and modern components, I doubt that you would hear any differences at all in a properly set up blind test. The processor has some benefits in that, not having to house power amps, there is more room for additional outputs and things like XLR connectors. But I attach no value to XLR connectors really, in a domestic setup, and I only use HDMI these days so any additional connectors are wasted on me anyway. Add to this that a processor usually costs more than its equivalent AVR, mainly because processors are made in relatively tiny quantities compared to their sister AVR, and I can't see the justification for them any more.

So, recently, when I needed to sell my fabulous flagship Onkyo 5509 processor in order to upgrade to Atmos, I just went with the Denon X5200W AVR, using its preouts to feed my amps. I saved money, suffered zero degradation of sound, and I have 9 'spare' amplifiers if I ever need them.

That's my 2 cents on it. Others are big fans of flasgship processors, but usually I think it is for the security of having the 'best' or the top of the range. I can see the value of that, but I choose all my gear on the basis of performance only and in that regard, IMO, an AVR is as good as its associated processor, and usually much cheaper too.
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post #73190 of 73200 Unread 12-20-2014, 12:09 PM
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Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post
I have had flagship processors and I currently have an AVR which feeds all-external amps. IMO there is no audible sonic difference between them.

Back in the day, there was an argument that keeping the tiny preamp signals well away from the muscular power amp signals was beneficial, and indeed in those days it may have been. But with modern units, using modern design and modern components, I doubt that you would hear any differences at all in a properly set up blind test. The processor has some benefits in that, not having to house power amps, there is more room for additional outputs and things like XLR connectors. But I attach no value to XLR connectors really, in a domestic setup, and I only use HDMI these days so any additional connectors are wasted on me anyway. Add to this that a processor usually costs more than its equivalent AVR, mainly because processors are made in relatively tiny quantities compared to their sister AVR, and I can't see the justification for them any more.

So, recently, when I needed to sell my fabulous flagship Onkyo 5509 processor in order to upgrade to Atmos, I just went with the Denon X5200W AVR, using its preouts to feed my amps. I saved money, suffered zero degradation of sound, and I have 9 'spare' amplifiers if I ever need them.

That's my 2 cents on it. Others are big fans of flasgship processors, but usually I think it is for the security of having the 'best' or the top of the range. I can see the value of that, but I choose all my gear on the basis of performance only and in that regard, IMO, an AVR is as good as its associated processor, and usually much cheaper too.
Good choice on the denon 5200 i always liked denon hence my 4308. I guess i will return the xlr's and spl meter and throw that money towards another 5 channel amp and speakers for the atmos. Do you have atmos up and running?
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Oops.

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Sorry if this has been covered folks.

Is there any way, without running a sub, to get more low-end out of Audyssey?

I run a 5.0 setup and in multiple rooms/houses with probably 30 different Audyssey runs at various times, there's always a lack of low-end in my movies.
I know - just get a sub you say. Honestly I don't want a sub at this time.
I've got a set of RF-82s that are getting replaced by a set of RF-7IIs tomorrow. I don't expect this to change with the RF-7s. I am looking forward to my stereo/manual EQ music listening, however.

Can anything be done for us subless movie watchers to dial in a bit of bass while still running the Audyssey EQ profile?

Again, I apologize if this has been covered - this thread is a beast with a lot of pages.

AVR is a 2809ci. Settings are Sub off, LFE+MAIN (this doesn't matter without a sub,right?), Mains @ Large, xo'd at 40Hz. Dyn EQ and Dyn Vol are off.

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post #73193 of 73200 Unread Today, 06:39 AM
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Good choice on the denon 5200 i always liked denon hence my 4308. I guess i will return the xlr's and spl meter and throw that money towards another 5 channel amp and speakers for the atmos. Do you have atmos up and running?
Yes I have Atmos in a 5.2.4 config. See the Atmos HT thread for more on that.
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post #73194 of 73200 Unread Today, 06:48 AM
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Originally Posted by Brahmzy View Post
Sorry if this has been covered folks.

Is there any way, without running a sub, to get more low-end out of Audyssey?
Not really. Movie bass is much more demanding than music bass (unless you are a fan of pipe organ music or some of the synthesised extreme stuff). The LFE channel in movies plays at 115dB peak at reference level and to get significantly low and deep bass at that sort of SPL requires massive amplification and a purpose-designed subwoofer. Even if you listen at below reference level, as most do, you still need a pretty special speaker to get down to 20Hz or below with any real SPL behind it, and most regular speakers can’t begin to compete with a decent subwoofer.

Music gives the system a much less tough time - the open E on a bass guitar is 42Hz for example. Movies routinely go down to 20Hz and sometimes well below that. So while your system could be fine for music, it isn't ever likely to be fully satisfying for movies.

What can you do? Well you can use tone controls to turn up the bass - but that is crude and some AVRs don't allow the use of tone controls along with Audyssey. You can, and should, use Dynamic EQ to bring the bass back up to perceived proper levels based on how our hearing works (google Fletcher Munson Curves for info on that). You could add an external PEQ device if you run external amps, but that requires a whole new lot of learning and complexity.

You have already hit on the best idea: add a decent sub.

Adding a sub will give you proper low, loud bass but it will also relieve the strain on your amps and main speakers too, allowing them to give their best possible performance, so adding a sub can sometimes bring audible benefits much further up the frequency range. That would be my advice really.
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AVR is a 2809ci. Settings are Sub off, LFE+MAIN (this doesn't matter without a sub,right?), Mains @ Large, xo'd at 40Hz. Dyn EQ and Dyn Vol are off.
If you want more bass why on earth is Dynamic EQ off? That's the first and most obvious step and will likely solve the problem in one stroke.

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Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post
Not really. Movie bass is much more demanding than music bass (unless you are a fan of pipe organ music or some of the synthesised extreme stuff). The LFE channel in movies plays at 115dB peak at reference level and to get significantly low and deep bass at that sort of SPL requires massive amplification and a purpose-designed subwoofer. Even if you listen at below reference level, as most do, you still need a pretty special speaker to get down to 20Hz or below with any real SPL behind it, and most regular speakers can’t begin to compete with a decent subwoofer.

Music gives the system a much less tough time - the open E on a bass guitar is 42Hz for example. Movies routinely go down to 20Hz and sometimes well below that. So while your system could be fine for music, it isn't ever likely to be fully satisfying for movies.

What can you do? Well you can use tone controls to turn up the bass - but that is crude and some AVRs don't allow the use of tone controls along with Audyssey. You can, and should, use Dynamic EQ to bring the bass back up to perceived proper levels based on how our hearing works (google Fletcher Munson Curves for info on that). You could add an external PEQ device if you run external amps, but that requires a whole new lot of learning and complexity.

You have already hit on the best idea: add a decent sub.

Adding a sub will give you proper low, loud bass but it will also relieve the strain on your amps and main speakers too, allowing them to give their best possible performance, so adding a sub can sometimes bring audible benefits much further up the frequency range. That would be my advice really.
Thanks for the helpful post. I've actually got a 15" DefTec sub sitting in it's box the basement where it's been for the past 7 years. I never got that thing to sound good - probably a mix between too big of a sub in the wrong room in the wrong area of the room, configured wrong, lol. I'd like to get a 10" sub that could fit well into my setup instead of being this separate entity/personality with a mind of it's own. A big, boomy, sloppy mess it was.

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Originally Posted by batpig View Post
If you want more bass why on earth is Dynamic EQ off? That's the first and most obvious step and will likely solve the problem in one stroke.
I was battling poor dialogue volume from my center and was finding disabling Dynamic EQ helped that out. I've gone back and forth on all of these things, multiple times. I have aimed my center upwards to my head, which helped, but everytime I increase the center channel volume, it just seems to wreck what Audyssey was trying to do. Things don't have a balance anymore - all I hear is my center channel and yet, I still have trouble picking up dialogue sometimes. I am hoping a newer XT32 DENON AVR with separate dialogue control might help things out a bit. I'm also hoping my new RC-64II center might have a slight edge on my RC-62 center.

Last edited by Brahmzy; Today at 08:39 AM.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Brahmzy View Post
Thanks for the helpful post. I've actually got a 15" DefTec sub sitting in it's box the basement where it's been for the past 7 years. I never got that thing to sound good - probably a mix between too big of a sub in the wrong room in the wrong area of the room, configured wrong, lol. I'd like to get a 10" sub that could fit well into my setup instead of being this separate entity/personality with a mind of it's own. A big, boomy, sloppy mess it was.
Don't let one bad sub experience put you off the whole idea. IMO a good sub is essential in a system that is used for movies.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Brahmzy View Post
I was battling poor dialogue volume from my center and was finding disabling Dynamic EQ helped that out. I've gone back and forth on all of these things, multiple times. I have aimed my center upwards to my head, which helped, but everytime I increase the center channel volume, it just seems to wreck what Audyssey was trying to do. Things don't have a balance anymore - all I hear is my center channel and yet, I still have trouble picking up dialogue sometimes. I am hoping a newer XT32 DENON AVR with separate dialogue control might help things out a bit. I'm also hoping my new RC-64II center might have a slight edge on my RC-62 center.
If you are having problems with dialog intelligibility then it is likely to be a room issue, causing unwanted reflections.

Try this FAQ answer to see if it helps:

a)2. Why is dialogue from the centre channel difficult to hear or understand?
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Yes, I've read those FAQs extensively - great help.
Unfortunately, My new home / great room is somewhat of a reflecto-chamber. All hardwoods, leather couches, 9ft flat ceilings etc. I've got a massive area rug in the main listening area completely covering up the wood, but that doesn't help the rest. The closest wall behind the main listening position is 25-30ft away.
Not much treatment I can do, or rather, that the wife would allow me to do that wouldn't look horrendous.
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Yes, I've read those FAQs extensively - great help.
Unfortunately, My new home / great room is somewhat of a reflecto-chamber. All hardwoods, leather couches, 9ft flat ceilings etc. I've got a massive area rug in the main listening area completely covering up the wood, but that doesn't help the rest. The closest wall behind the main listening position is 25-30ft away.
Not much treatment I can do, or rather, that the wife would allow me to do that wouldn't look horrendous.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Brahmzy View Post
Yes, I've read those FAQs extensively - great help.
Unfortunately, My new home / great room is somewhat of a reflecto-chamber. All hardwoods, leather couches, 9ft flat ceilings etc. I've got a massive area rug in the main listening area completely covering up the wood, but that doesn't help the rest. The closest wall behind the main listening position is 25-30ft away.
Not much treatment I can do, or rather, that the wife would allow me to do that wouldn't look horrendous.
That could explain the problems you are having with dialog intelligibility. Unfortunately, short of adding treatments or using a different room there isn't a lot you can do. Room correction EQ alone won't help in a room that is so lively. Good quality headphones might be an option. If you use good headphones and add a bass shaker under your couch, you can get a really good experience, with the bass feeling like it is coming from the headphones, even though it is the couch getting a good thump. Crowson and Buttkicker make good tactile transducers.
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