"Official" Audyssey thread (FAQ in post #51779) - Page 2440 - AVS Forum
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post #73171 of 73191 Unread Yesterday, 09:24 AM
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Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post
If you change from RCA to XLR you will have a 6dB boost in level. If you are happy with that then you don't need to re-run Audyssey. DEQ will be affected.
Ok thank you Kbarnes i figures it would be ok to just add the xlr's as i don't like the DEQ. Also when comparing the xt32 on the Marantz vs the xt on the denon 4308 the lelvels are always a minus figure with XT32 and positive figures with XT. I think this is accounting for the DEQ and Dolby Volume with the Xt32.
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post #73172 of 73191 Unread Yesterday, 09:45 AM
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Ok thank you Kbarnes. So i shouldn't have to worry about any clipping of the signal with Audyssey engaged would i ?
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post #73173 of 73191 Unread Yesterday, 09:52 AM
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Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post
No need to run Audyssey again IMO. What you have done is no different to changing the level of the trims, if the 3dB difference is the same across all your channels. Dynamic EQ might be affected a little but as the new level is 3dB down (not up) that might actually help with the overboost that DEQ gives to surrounds.

No doubt you will be running Audyssey again soon anyway, so it will resolve itself
Thanks for agreeing, Keith, and for pointing out the 3dB difference between Gen 1 and Gen 2. Since I have done several calibrations over the past week as I was struggling with the MiniDSP implementation, I wasn't keen on doing another one right away. But you are 100% correct--another calibration cannot be far down the road.
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post #73174 of 73191 Unread Yesterday, 11:03 AM
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Will AVS ever fix this bug which prevents you from seeing the last page of a thread in certain circumstances?

To get to this page I had to use Safari. It's actually pretty nice - new version it seems.

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post #73175 of 73191 Unread Yesterday, 11:10 AM
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Ok thank you Kbarnes. So i shouldn't have to worry about any clipping of the signal with Audyssey engaged would i ?
I'm not sure what you are asking, sorry.

If both units have XLR then that is taken care of automatically. No more reason to worry about clipping than if you connect with RCA.

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post #73176 of 73191 Unread Yesterday, 11:55 AM
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Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post
I'm not sure what you are asking, sorry.

If both units have XLR then that is taken care of automatically. No more reason to worry about clipping than if you connect with RCA.
What i ment to say was using xlr's there is a voltage output of 2.4 volts rms vs 1.2 volts rms using Rca's and my Emotiva Xpa-5 only needs 1.2 volts to reach max power since it has a 32db input gain. I just wanted to make sure this would not be a issue.
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post #73177 of 73191 Unread Yesterday, 12:03 PM
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Will AVS ever fix this bug which prevents you from seeing the last page of a thread in certain circumstances?

To get to this page I had to use Safari. It's actually pretty nice - new version it seems.
I have reported this issue a number of times, but Mike Lang usually has a reason why he can't duplicate it, and if he can't duplicate it, how can he report it to be fixed? So, the short answer is No, it will never be fixed.
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post #73178 of 73191 Unread Yesterday, 12:26 PM
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What i ment to say was using xlr's there is a voltage output of 2.4 volts rms vs 1.2 volts rms using Rca's and my Emotiva Xpa-5 only needs 1.2 volts to reach max power since it has a 32db input gain. I just wanted to make sure this would not be a issue.
If the processor/AVR has XLR outputs and the Emotiva amp has XLR inputs, I can't imagine that they would not work correctly together. But I don't use XLR personally so cannot speak from experience.
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post #73179 of 73191 Unread Yesterday, 12:27 PM
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Originally Posted by AustinJerry View Post
I have reported this issue a number of times, but Mike Lang usually has a reason why he can't duplicate it, and if he can't duplicate it, how can he report it to be fixed? So, the short answer is No, it will never be fixed.
I can fix it by clearing my cache in Firefox, exiting FF and reloading FF. But what a pain.
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post #73180 of 73191 Unread Yesterday, 09:05 PM
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1. No need to rerun the Audyssey calibration.
You are thinking right, I truly believe, in that by changing the trim levels of your three front mains in your AVR has no effect on Audyssey's FIR filters.
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Originally Posted by NorthSky View Post
2. Experiment: Rerun the Audyssey calibration, and measure with REW, and compare to your previous calibration on them three front mains of yours.
That way you'll have your confirmation.
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So let me see if I understand your suggestion. I would re-run the calibration, and re-measure to see if anything changed. If nothing changed, I just wasted my time, except that if I ever swap out power amps again in the future, I will know whether to re-run the calibration or not.

Let me ask you this--why not simply re-measure without running the calibration again? If everything looks the same, a new calibration would not be required. Or perhaps you didn't think of this?
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You do as you please; it's your system setup. ...Me I just shared some comments (two suggestions); exactly like you asked.
...
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post #73181 of 73191 Unread Today, 10:09 AM
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Thanks again for your help Kbarnes i just picked up a spl meter to make sure all the levels are even after i hook up the xlr's today. When im running the test tones in the processor do i need to disengage Audyssey? And also Is it really true in most cases that xlr measures worst than rca's ?

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post #73182 of 73191 Unread Today, 10:42 AM
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Thanks again for your help Kbarnes i just picked up a spl meter to make sure all the levels are even after i hook up the xlr's today. When im running the test tones in the processor do i need to disengage Audyssey? And also Is it really true in most cases that xlr measures worst than rca's ?
This FAQ answer will give you the skinny on measuring SPL with tones:

e)3. Why is it a bad idea to use your AVR test tones and a SPL meter to check trim levels?


XLR and RCA should be identical sonically in all circumstances but one: if you are experiencing noise in the signal as a result of very long cable runs picking up interference from close-by higher level signals such as electrical noise from parallel power cables, then XLR will help eliminate or reduce that noise. If you do not run very long cables, and you do not have power, speaker and low level signal cables all bunched parallel to each other, then RCA will be sonically no better, or worse, than XLR. If you have to cross power cables with signal cables, do so at right angles not along the length of the wires and this usually solves any induced noise issues. XLR cables are commonly used in pro studios, where very long cable runs are common and where they will be literally dozens of cables of all sorts channeled through various ducting. This doesn't usually apply in domestic circumstances though but has given rise to the notion (wrongly) that if Pros use XLR then they must automatically be 'better' than RCA.
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post #73183 of 73191 Unread Today, 10:55 AM
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Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post
This FAQ answer will give you the skinny on measuring SPL with tones:

e)3. Why is it a bad idea to use your AVR test tones and a SPL meter to check trim levels?


XLR and RCA should be identical sonically in all circumstances but one: if you are experiencing noise in the signal as a result of very long cable runs picking up interference from close-by higher level signals such as electrical noise from parallel power cables, then XLR will help eliminate or reduce that noise. If you do not run very long cables, and you do not have power, speaker and low level signal cables all bunched parallel to each other, then RCA will be sonically no better, or worse, than XLR. If you have to cross power cables with signal cables, do so at right angles not along the length of the wires and this usually solves any induced noise issues. XLR cables are commonly used in pro studios, where very long cable runs are common and where they will be literally dozens of cables of all sorts channeled through various ducting. This doesn't usually apply in domestic circumstances though but has given rise to the notion (wrongly) that if Pros use XLR then they must automatically be 'better' than RCA.
Ok i looked at your post and i will not use the spl meter without a test tone disc. However would it be correct if i just take out the rca's then replace the connections with xlr's and set my source input level at -6 to compensate for the 6db gain? That way i am leaving all the levels the same?
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post #73184 of 73191 Unread Today, 10:57 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AustinJerry View Post
I have reported this issue a number of times, but Mike Lang usually has a reason why he can't duplicate it, and if he can't duplicate it, how can he report it to be fixed? So, the short answer is No, it will never be fixed.
I see this too:and it is frustrating

I can usually resolve it by:

user CP/ edit options / thread display options/ set number of posts to display to forum default

I have Firefox set to automatically clear cache, but some threads with hundreds of pages take a long time to load and become problematic: that is why I prefer to start a part 2 thread after a while...this thread is one of the oldest and takes forever to load

Time to start Part 2 for this Audyssey thread: it is getting long in the tooth

please take the high road in every post
if you see a problematic post, please do not quote it or respond to it: report it to the mods to handle

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post #73185 of 73191 Unread Today, 10:59 AM
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Originally Posted by Titan319 View Post
Ok i looked at your post and i will not use the spl meter without a test tone disc. However would it be correct if i just take out the rca's then replace the connections with xlr's and set my source input level at -6 to compensate for the 6db gain? That way i am leaving all the levels the same?
I suggest re-running Audyssey.

The trims are limited to +/- 12 dB, so you might not be able to adjust them far enough.

ETA:

On most receivers, the input trims are unique to each input. It's better to adjust the common trims, not the per-input trims.
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post #73186 of 73191 Unread Today, 11:06 AM
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Ok i looked at your post and i will not use the spl meter without a test tone disc. However would it be correct if i just take out the rca's then replace the connections with xlr's and set my source input level at -6 to compensate for the 6db gain? That way i am leaving all the levels the same?
As Selden says, that may not be a good idea. XLR output is 6dB higher than RCA. In my own system, which is in a small room, with reasonably sensitive speakers and gruntolicious amplification, if I use XLR, my speaker trims go to -12dB, which is their maxed out setting, so I have no way to know if they really wanted to go to -15dB or whatever. This means I cannot use XLR here for that reason. When I switch to RCA my speaker trims get set at about -9dB. You have no way of knowing if this would be the same for you, so I would suggest you complete your cabling to how you want it and then run Audyssey afresh. That way you will be certain everything is as it should be.
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post #73187 of 73191 Unread Today, 11:07 AM
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Originally Posted by Selden Ball View Post
I suggest re-running Audyssey.

The trims are limited to +/- 12 dB, so you might not be able to adjust them far enough.
That's exactly the issue my surrounds are close to my MLP so im trying to compensate for the -12 numbers. I guess there is no easy fix not to mention there is a pad 6db on my sub for the xlr connection so there is no 6db increase if i use rca or xlr's on my SVS pb 12 plus. That's another issue lol today i can't win. I guess the one very big positive is i do love the XT32 vs the XT on my Denon 4308. I can finally apply it to music without a cupped sound.

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post #73188 of 73191 Unread Today, 11:14 AM
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That's exactly the issue my surrounds are close to my MLP so im trying to compensate for the -12 numbers. I guess there is no easy fix not to mention there is a pad 6db on my sub for the xlr connection so there is no 6db increase if i use rca or xlr's on my SVS pb 12 plus. That's another issue lol today i can't win. I guess the one very big positive is i do love the XT32 vs the XT on my Denon 4308. I can finally apply it to music without a cupped sound.
I'd forget using XLR. Unless you have a noise issue, they have no sonic advantages over RCA. It seems odd to use XLR on the sub and then put a 6dB pad in - you may as well just use RCA and be done with it. If your surrounds are maxing out at -12dB with XLR then switching to RCA may well solve it for you, as it does with me.

XLR has a nicer connection than RCA, but how many times do you make and break the connection? In the Pro world where they do this every day, on gigs for example, and frequently in studio setups, a more robust connector can be beneficial - but for consumers who typically make a connection one time and then hardly ever touch it again, the benefit is negligible to none.
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post #73189 of 73191 Unread Today, 11:33 AM
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Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post
I'd forget using XLR. Unless you have a noise issue, they have no sonic advantages over RCA. It seems odd to use XLR on the sub and then put a 6dB pad in - you may as well just use RCA and be done with it. If your surrounds are maxing out at -12dB with XLR then switching to RCA may well solve it for you, as it does with me.

XLR has a nicer connection than RCA, but how many times do you make and break the connection? In the Pro world where they do this every day, on gigs for example, and frequently in studio setups, a more robust connector can be beneficial - but for consumers who typically make a connection one time and then hardly ever touch it again, the benefit is negligible to none.
Yeah with rca i have no issues i am within the -6db across all channels. I bought the Marantz 7702 vs the 7709 reciever for the xlr connections. But i guess i could add amps later for the atmos. I know this is subjective Barnes but is the processor better than the receiver because there is more space between components and a dedicated power supply in your opinion.
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post #73190 of 73191 Unread Today, 11:47 AM
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Yeah with rca i have no issues i am within the -6db across all channels. I bought the Marantz 7702 vs the 7709 reciever for the xlr connections. But i guess i could add amps later for the atmos. I know this is subjective Barnes but is the processor better than the receiver because there is more space between components and a dedicated power supply in your opinion.
I have had flagship processors and I currently have an AVR which feeds all-external amps. IMO there is no audible sonic difference between them.

Back in the day, there was an argument that keeping the tiny preamp signals well away from the muscular power amp signals was beneficial, and indeed in those days it may have been. But with modern units, using modern design and modern components, I doubt that you would hear any differences at all in a properly set up blind test. The processor has some benefits in that, not having to house power amps, there is more room for additional outputs and things like XLR connectors. But I attach no value to XLR connectors really, in a domestic setup, and I only use HDMI these days so any additional connectors are wasted on me anyway. Add to this that a processor usually costs more than its equivalent AVR, mainly because processors are made in relatively tiny quantities compared to their sister AVR, and I can't see the justification for them any more.

So, recently, when I needed to sell my fabulous flagship Onkyo 5509 processor in order to upgrade to Atmos, I just went with the Denon X5200W AVR, using its preouts to feed my amps. I saved money, suffered zero degradation of sound, and I have 9 'spare' amplifiers if I ever need them.

That's my 2 cents on it. Others are big fans of flasgship processors, but usually I think it is for the security of having the 'best' or the top of the range. I can see the value of that, but I choose all my gear on the basis of performance only and in that regard, IMO, an AVR is as good as its associated processor, and usually much cheaper too.
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post #73191 of 73191 Unread Today, 12:09 PM
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Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post
I have had flagship processors and I currently have an AVR which feeds all-external amps. IMO there is no audible sonic difference between them.

Back in the day, there was an argument that keeping the tiny preamp signals well away from the muscular power amp signals was beneficial, and indeed in those days it may have been. But with modern units, using modern design and modern components, I doubt that you would hear any differences at all in a properly set up blind test. The processor has some benefits in that, not having to house power amps, there is more room for additional outputs and things like XLR connectors. But I attach no value to XLR connectors really, in a domestic setup, and I only use HDMI these days so any additional connectors are wasted on me anyway. Add to this that a processor usually costs more than its equivalent AVR, mainly because processors are made in relatively tiny quantities compared to their sister AVR, and I can't see the justification for them any more.

So, recently, when I needed to sell my fabulous flagship Onkyo 5509 processor in order to upgrade to Atmos, I just went with the Denon X5200W AVR, using its preouts to feed my amps. I saved money, suffered zero degradation of sound, and I have 9 'spare' amplifiers if I ever need them.

That's my 2 cents on it. Others are big fans of flasgship processors, but usually I think it is for the security of having the 'best' or the top of the range. I can see the value of that, but I choose all my gear on the basis of performance only and in that regard, IMO, an AVR is as good as its associated processor, and usually much cheaper too.
Good choice on the denon 5200 i always liked denon hence my 4308. I guess i will return the xlr's and spl meter and throw that money towards another 5 channel amp and speakers for the atmos. Do you have atmos up and running?
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