"Official" Audyssey thread (FAQ in post #51779) - Page 2443 - AVS Forum

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NorthSky's Avatar NorthSky
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Quote:
Originally Posted by garygarrison View Post
Except for the subwoofer, which will be allowed to produce 115 dB
...On peaks.
mogorf's Avatar mogorf
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Originally Posted by NorthSky View Post
...On peaks.
And with dual subs on "Twin Peaks"...couldn't resist.
NorthSky's Avatar NorthSky
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I luv it! ...The true real Holidays spirit. ...Luv you Feri, all of you.
Federo5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ggsantafe View Post
Please - let's not continue to obfuscate an already well defined concept and make it more difficult for the OP to find a reasonable and simple solution, as proposed by Keith

remind me not to play scrabble with you mr obfuscate
lego1's Avatar lego1
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Question for you guys. I recently bought a used denon 1911. It is equipped with audyssey multeq. I also have the anti mode 8033 sub eq I was using since my previous rotel AVR did not have room correction.

I ran audyssey with a mic stand and am happy with the sound but read that all prior forms of audyssey except XT32 heavily correct the upper frequencies over 500hz which can effect speaker performance and hardly correct the sub. I checked the eq corrections under the audyssey menu and saw that the upper frequencies over 500hz are in fact boosted 3-4 dB.

My question is, since I don't have XT32 in this receiver, am I better served with turning the eq off and using the anti mode for sub eq, using the audyssey eq, or using anti mode and copying the audyssey flat curve to the manual eq and changing all corrections for frequencies over 500hz to 0.

Regardless what I do, I am still using the levels and distances set by audyssey.

My speakers are the B&W 685 for front, B&W HTM61 center, PSB S5 for surround, and Tannoy Di5DC for front height. My sub is the HSU STF2. All speakers are crossed away 80hz except the Tannoy which are crossed at 90hz.

Thanks!
kbarnes701's Avatar kbarnes701
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mogorf View Post
Please, let's not spread wrong technical information coz it causes confusion. The "gain" of the subwoofer plate amplifier is fixed, its constant and its carefully calculated and designed by R&D engineers. Gain is the characteristics of the active components in the circuit (transistors) and it does not change.

What can be changed (by the knob) on the subwoofer plate amp is the level of the incoming signal. Basically the knob can only attenuate this signal being a passive component. But in that case in order to reach the desired power output the level of the subwoofer output on the AVR must be increased. This is because "gain" is constant, so an attenuation on the plate amp side requires an increase of the output trim on the AVR side.

Hope this clears up matters.
Far from clearing up matters, it only serves to confuse. The idea of contributing to a forum is to help other members solve their problems, not to try to demonstrate some alleged technical superiority over other posters.

As such, my earlier reply was totally clear. Many people confuse the knob on their subwoofer with the knob on their AVR, which controls volume. They can believe that if they turn down the sub gain control knob to its lowest setting that their sub amplifier will not then be able to deliver its rated power. As you ought to know, this is not the case. The knob on the subwoofer can be turned down to its minimum setting and the output power of the sub amp is still able to hit its rated power simply because the the output voltage from the preamp will be increased (by way of the sub trim levels) to compensate. The sub amp will simply deliver its rated power from a smaller, or higher, input signal, depending on the sub amp's knob position and the trim level of the AVR.

That is what I said and, unlike your post, it is a clear and simple explanation.
kbarnes701's Avatar kbarnes701
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lego1 View Post
Question for you guys. I recently bought a used denon 1911. It is equipped with audyssey multeq. I also have the anti mode 8033 sub eq I was using since my previous rotel AVR did not have room correction.

I ran audyssey with a mic stand and am happy with the sound but read that all prior forms of audyssey except XT32 heavily correct the upper frequencies over 500hz which can effect speaker performance and hardly correct the sub. I checked the eq corrections under the audyssey menu and saw that the upper frequencies over 500hz are in fact boosted 3-4 dB.

My question is, since I don't have XT32 in this receiver, am I better served with turning the eq off and using the anti mode for sub eq, using the audyssey eq, or using anti mode and copying the audyssey flat curve to the manual eq and changing all corrections for frequencies over 500hz to 0.

Regardless what I do, I am still using the levels and distances set by audyssey.

My speakers are the B&W 685 for front, B&W HTM61 center, PSB S5 for surround, and Tannoy Di5DC for front height. My sub is the HSU STF2. All speakers are crossed away 80hz except the Tannoy which are crossed at 90hz.

Thanks!
It is true that Audyssey flavors below XT32 work in a different way to XT32, which is more benign in the way it corrects the upper frequencies and concentrates most of its effort on the lower frequencies where correction is usually very much needed.

However, as you already have the AntiMode, which is a good tool for fixing LF room issues, why not just try both and see which you prefer? If you have already done the Audyssey calibration, simply turn Audyssey off and insert the AntiMode, run an AntiMode cal and see which result you find most pleasing, to your ears in your room?

Unless you have independent measuring gear, such as REW and a calibrated mic, there isn't much more you can do besides a listening test, so just give it a go. When comparing the two, make sure the volume control remains untouched between listening evaluations, and use content that has good bass and which you are familiar with. Pay attention to how tight the bass is, how controlled it seems, how deep it goes. Also pay attention to the higher frequencies and see if one evaluation sounds smoother or more pleasing than the other. Please let us know how you get on if you try this.
lego1's Avatar lego1
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Thanks kbarnes! I am currently using both the anti mode and the audyssey together. I ran the anti mode first, then the audyssey. I remember what it sounded like with the anti mode only, and love how it sounds now with both together.

I did have to increase the center channel up 2 dB afterwards though since voices were a bit low even though my center is aimed at ear level.

I am also running it with dyneq enabled. In PLiiz mode, my FLAC music from my oppo 103 sounds amazing with dyneq at 15 offset. Movies and shows sound awesome at 10 offset. I did not have to increase the sub at all and feel the calibration has plenty of tight bass even without dyneq enabled.

This is the best my system has ever sounded. It's the first time I ever used audyssey. The only reason I asked the question was because I read about how XT32 is so much better due in part to not Eqing the upper frequencies as much and thought maybe Audyssey multeq was compromising the sound by boosting the upper frequencies.

Even though the upper frequencies are boosted a bit, music and movies don't sound bright unlike when I ran the MCACC in my old pioneer 1018 receiver.

The only reason I got rid of my old Rotel receiver was because I began reading the atmos thread you guys started here and your impressions of atmos. Since the atmos avr is still out of my price range, I bought the used Tannoy Di5dc speakers to use as front height in the meantime and bought the used denon 1911. I figured I'd give the audyssey calibration a try and did not expect it to sound this good.
kbarnes701's Avatar kbarnes701
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lego1 View Post
Thanks kbarnes! I am currently using both the anti mode and the audyssey together. I ran the anti mode first, then the audyssey. I remember what it sounded like with the anti mode only, and love how it sounds now with both together.

I did have to increase the center channel up 2 dB afterwards though since voices were a bit low even though my center is aimed at ear level.

I am also running it with dyneq enabled. In PLiiz mode, my FLAC music from my oppo 103 sounds amazing with dyneq at 15 offset. Movies and shows sound awesome at 10 offset. I did not have to increase the sub at all and feel the calibration has plenty of tight bass even without dyneq enabled.

This is the best my system has ever sounded. It's the first time I ever used audyssey. The only reason I asked the question was because I read about how XT32 is so much better due in part to not Eqing the upper frequencies as much and thought maybe Audyssey multeq was compromising the sound by boosting the upper frequencies.

Even though the upper frequencies are boosted a bit, music and movies don't sound bright unlike when I ran the MCACC in my old pioneer 1018 receiver.

The only reason I got rid of my old Rotel receiver was because I began reading the atmos thread you guys started here and your impressions of atmos. Since the atmos avr is still out of my price range, I bought the used Tannoy Di5dc speakers to use as front height in the meantime and bought the used denon 1911. I figured I'd give the audyssey calibration a try and did not expect it to sound this good.
If you are happy with it all, then my suggestion would be to make a note of your settings, leave it all as it is and kick back with a good movie or album and a cold one...

If your Denon allows for Network Save of the config, I'd also save it right now!
Mattrix's Avatar Mattrix
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Howdy oh wise ones....

Had been putting up with foggy sound due to a moved around room and different furniture and speakers moved - so i finally got around to re-doing audyssey (xt32) denon 4311

I noticed this time around that it took ALL the bass on the front mains. Now i know all about not worrying about that and thinking my biggish mains should be full but this time they were set to 100hz cutoff and all the bass below that 20db.

All other (past 4 years) tunes have been full range and the usual ups and downs in the bass dept for the mains.....

Any clues - is this typical of something in particular? i need to change something?
Went from 2 rows of sofas (rear elevated) to a L shaped and a ottoman (big foot rest shaped thingy)

As i said not too worried as i typically normally cutoff at 80hz but a 100 "feels" a bit high and just interested as to why.....

Haven't tried another 8 woop whoops as its late and the kids are sleeping but will muster up the courage to do it all again tomorrow....

Regards,

Matt
Mattrix's Avatar Mattrix
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DP
kbarnes701's Avatar kbarnes701
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mattrix View Post
Howdy oh wise ones....

Had been putting up with foggy sound due to a moved around room and different furniture and speakers moved - so i finally got around to re-doing audyssey (xt32) denon 4311

I noticed this time around that it took ALL the bass on the front mains. Now i know all about not worrying about that and thinking my biggish mains should be full but this time they were set to 100hz cutoff and all the bass below that 20db.

All other (past 4 years) tunes have been full range and the usual ups and downs in the bass dept for the mains.....

Any clues - is this typical of something in particular? i need to change something?
Went from 2 rows of sofas (rear elevated) to a L shaped and a ottoman (big foot rest shaped thingy)

As i said not too worried as i typically normally cutoff at 80hz but a 100 "feels" a bit high and just interested as to why.....

Haven't tried another 8 woop whoops as its late and the kids are sleeping but will muster up the courage to do it all again tomorrow....

Regards,

Matt
Run the cal again paying special attention to your mic technique. See the 101 linked in my sig for a step-by-step guide.

Once you move things around in the room you are changing its acoustic characteristics and something you have done is causing Audyssey to hear the response from your speakers differently. I suggest doing another cal just to make sure it isn't something you are doing that is causing the issue. Were you speakers in corners before or close to walls, and now they aren't?

Which speakers are you using?
Mattrix's Avatar Mattrix
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Thanks ye I will do it again in the morning. And i'll have a refresh of the 101

ye its just things in the room that have changed i.e. sofas etc the front speakers etc haven't moved all that much just a side shuffle to the left a bit 4" or so....
out from front wall 1.5' and left one 2' from the wall

using some vaf dc7's http://www.vaf.com.au/detail.asp?aud...unt=s200r26725

cool will do it all again....
Mattrix's Avatar Mattrix
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Dp - why every time i post is it double posting?? i clicked it once only and left it till it posted!


mmm gremlins!
kbarnes701's Avatar kbarnes701
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mattrix View Post
Thanks ye I will do it again in the morning. And i'll have a refresh of the 101

ye its just things in the room that have changed i.e. sofas etc the front speakers etc haven't moved all that much just a side shuffle to the left a bit 4" or so....
out from front wall 1.5' and left one 2' from the wall

using some vaf dc7's http://www.vaf.com.au/detail.asp?aud...unt=s200r26725

cool will do it all again....

Thanks for the info. The speakers are specced as:

Frequency range 35Hz ~ 21kHz
Frequency Response 44Hz - 18kHz (±2dB)

As they already seem to be 8dB down at -2dB, we could perhaps speculate that their -3db point is perhaps somewhere IRO of 50Hz. That is the point which Audyssey will report the lowest frequency to the AVR, so you would be right to expect a crossover anywhere between 50Hz and 80Hz I'd guess. This is, of course, if the manufacturer's specification is accurate - they are often exaggerated, although we have no way of knowing this absent independent measurements.

So that does point to a room-related issue or a measuring issue. Let's see what the re-cal shows up.
mogorf's Avatar mogorf
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post
Far from clearing up matters, it only serves to confuse. The idea of contributing to a forum is to help other members solve their problems, not to try to demonstrate some alleged technical superiority over other posters.

As such, my earlier reply was totally clear. Many people confuse the knob on their subwoofer with the knob on their AVR, which controls volume. They can believe that if they turn down the sub gain control knob to its lowest setting that their sub amplifier will not then be able to deliver its rated power. As you ought to know, this is not the case. The knob on the subwoofer can be turned down to its minimum setting and the output power of the sub amp is still able to hit its rated power simply because the the output voltage from the preamp will be increased (by way of the sub trim levels) to compensate. The sub amp will simply deliver its rated power from a smaller, or higher, input signal, depending on the sub amp's knob position and the trim level of the AVR.

That is what I said and, unlike your post, it is a clear and simple explanation.
Keith, inspite of my several trials to help you out you are still mixing up these three things in your posts: a) level b) volume c) gain.

OK, so:

a) level, the thing you change either on the avr trim or on the sub knob

b) volume (a.k.a. SPL), changes proportionally as the result of changing level on the avr trim or on the sub knob

c) gain, this is constant, it is not user accessable, it is fixed in the design stage of the amplifier. It is a simple ratio between output and input level and as such it can be expressed in a logarithmic format already known as dBs. It remains intact regardless of change of level.

Think of the above for a second, please.

Hope this gets you closer.
IgorZep's Avatar IgorZep
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mogorf View Post
Gain is the characteristics of the active components in the circuit (transistors) and it does not change.
Gain is the characteristic of a two port (in and out) circuit. I would better use the 'sensitivity' term when abstracting a subwoofer (as it receives Voltage and outputs air Pressure from a user's perspective), but the 'gain' is perfectly legal term to describe the characteristics of the electronics of the subwoofer.
kbarnes701's Avatar kbarnes701
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mogorf View Post
Keith, inspite of my several trials to help you out you are still mixing up these three things in your posts: a) level b) volume c) gain.

OK, so:

a) level, the thing you change either on the avr trim or on the sub knob

b) volume (a.k.a. SPL), changes proportionally as the result of changing level on the avr trim or on the sub knob

c) gain, this is constant, it is not user accessable, it is fixed in the design stage of the amplifier. It is a simple ratio between output and input level and as such it can be expressed in a logarithmic format already known as dBs. It remains intact regardless of change of level.

Think of the above for a second, please.

Hope this gets you closer.
I don't need the lesson. I am 100% sure that what I told the OP was helpful to him. I do know what the terms mean and I do know what amplifier gain is. I am here to try to help other people get the most from their equipment, not to parade knowledge for its own sake in order to try to make myself look smart.

Think of the above for a second, please.
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