"Official" Audyssey thread (FAQ in post #51779) - Page 2456 - AVS | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #73651 of 73677 Old 01-23-2015, 10:02 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mogorf View Post
Judging people by which version of Audyssey's RC system they have should not be the way to follow. Also not recommended.

Thank you for your respect.
Not at all "judging you" according to the version of Audyssey your AVR has, and nothing in my post could reasonably be construed as such. But when someone expends as much energy as you do in sharing with us your understanding of how Audyssey works, it is important, I believe, for us to know whether those pronouncements are based on personal experience or not. For example, with just the basic MultEQ in your AVR, would you have first-hand knowledge and understanding of, for example, the difference between XT32 and XT? I would say not.

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Originally Posted by mogorf View Post
Making conclusive judgements on SQ of other people's room simply by looking at photos is a brave new idea. Not really recommended.
Indeed. What is recommended is some objective evidence that the system/room sounds good. Your REW graphs would be sufficient, for example. I did admit the possibility of being wrong, at the end of my post, and invited you to demonstrate the degree of my error by posting your REW graphs. So will you be posting them?

If my "judgement" about the sound quality in your room is subjective, it is no more so than your own subjection assertion that it is good. In most cases, this would not matter. But you are setting yourself up as some sort of expert and indeed directly asserting in your previous post that because you do not hear any problems with Dynamic EQ in your system and your room, either with movies or music, then there are no problems with the way Dynamic EQ works, period.

For that assertion to have credibility and value, we need to be sure that your room and your equipment is top notch - a 'reference' system by which such things as the correct operation of, for example, Dynamic EQ can be judged. Clearly, if the system or the room has shortcomings, then you will agree, I am sure, that they cannot be used as the benchmark for evaluation of sound quality.

So, to that end, and to allow us to evaluate your earlier comments, will you please post the REW graphs which will demonstrate that the system and the room is indeed worthy of being a 'reference' against which we can evaluate sound quality and especially the way in which Dynamic EQ contributes, or fails to contribute, to that?

If not, then what value should we ascribe to your comments about, in this instance, Dynamic EQ?
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post #73652 of 73677 Old 01-23-2015, 10:34 AM
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Does any AVR show the charts for subwoofers?
I've seen them for all speakers but subs.

Posted the Q to Chris K at his tech page:
https://www.facebook.com/groups/audy...6379520709667/
I just got done installing a door in my HT, solid core with perimeter seals and auto bottom seal.
Re-running XT32 and checking the charts, just realize there is no chart for subwoofers, why?
I'd truly like to see what XT32 is doing to my subs, I have a Denon 4520CI with dual subs.
.



And discussion:
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post #73653 of 73677 Old 01-23-2015, 11:21 AM
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Originally Posted by mtbdudex View Post
Does any AVR show the charts for subwoofers?
Not so far as I know. My understanding is that Onkyo didn't provide any graphs at all in their Audyssey-capable equipment.

As many people have mentioned, the plots are only crude approximations, anyhow. To find out what actually is happening, you need to use a spectrum analyzer like OmniMic or REW.

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post #73654 of 73677 Old 01-23-2015, 11:34 AM
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Originally Posted by ambesolman View Post
Wondered if you'd chime in about your mic[emoji6] I can send it back whenever if you need it...or maybe buy it off you if you don't.
I thought that was interesting too. I ran another sweep with audyssey flat and it was practically identical to standard audyssey, but the in room extension of the rx8s really took me by surprise.


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Nah man, you keep enjoying it for a while. If I end up going dirac, I will have a UMIK-1 that comes with it, so at that point perhaps you could help fund the new toy

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post #73655 of 73677 Old 01-23-2015, 12:22 PM
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Originally Posted by beastaudio View Post
Nah man, you keep enjoying it for a while. If I end up going dirac, I will have a UMIK-1 that comes with it, so at that point perhaps you could help fund the new toy

Works for me, just let me know[emoji106]


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post #73656 of 73677 Old 01-23-2015, 12:46 PM
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"Official" Audyssey thread (FAQ in post #51779)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Selden Ball View Post
Not so far as I know. My understanding is that Onkyo didn't provide any graphs at all in their Audyssey-capable equipment.



As many people have mentioned, the plots are only crude approximations, anyhow. To find out what actually is happening, you need to use a spectrum analyzer like OmniMic or REW.

I've used REW as posted, just wanted to see if any AVR plotted the subwoofer data as its there to plot, as Chris K confirmed.

Yes, the graphs are NOT your in room response, rather a visual representation of the Audyssely EQ filters I realize that.

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post #73657 of 73677 Old 01-23-2015, 01:36 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post
For example, with just the basic MultEQ in your AVR, would you have first-hand knowledge and understanding of, for example, the difference between XT32 and XT?
Yes. One doesn't need to own a Rolls Royce to acknowledge its luxury and comfort, or a Ferrari to acknowledge its speed and perforamce.


Quote:
Indeed. What is recommended is some objective evidence that the system/room sounds good. Your REW graphs would be sufficient, for example. I did admit the possibility of being wrong, at the end of my post, and invited you to demonstrate the degree of my error by posting your REW graphs. So will you be posting them?
No. I don't look at grahps. WYSINWYH = What You See Is Not What You Hear. I've posted my opinion on REW previously. YMMV, no problem.

Quote:
If my "judgement" about the sound quality in your room is subjective, it is no more so than your own subjection assertion that it is good. In most cases, this would not matter. But you are setting yourself up as some sort of expert and indeed directly asserting in your previous post that because you do not hear any problems with Dynamic EQ in your system and your room, either with movies or music, then there are no problems with the way Dynamic EQ works, period.
This is not what I said, but I said:"In my home system I have never experienced any drawback of DEQ neither for film, nor for music, YMMV." This is not the same as "there are no problems with the way Dynamic EQ works, period."

Quote:
For that assertion to have credibility and value, we need to be sure that your room and your equipment is top notch - a 'reference' system by which such things as the correct operation of, for example, Dynamic EQ can be judged. Clearly, if the system or the room has shortcomings, then you will agree, I am sure, that they cannot be used as the benchmark for evaluation of sound quality.
Does anyone on this green planet have a "top notch - 'reference' system"? BTW, DEQ has nothing to do with room acoustics, its a loudness compensation solution, would work in the same way outside.

Quote:
So, to that end, and to allow us to evaluate your earlier comments, will you please post the REW graphs which will demonstrate that the system and the room is indeed worthy of being a 'reference' against which we can evaluate sound quality and especially the way in which Dynamic EQ contributes, or fails to contribute, to that?
Again, DEQ has nothing to do with room acoustics, its there to compensate the characteristics of our ears as MV is turned down from 0 dB setting.

Quote:
If not, then what value should we ascribe to your comments about, in this instance, Dynamic EQ?
Who is "we"?
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post #73658 of 73677 Old 01-23-2015, 01:56 PM
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The "we" is the rest of us that like to use science and objective measurements, the name of the game and the name of the site. And yes, I would venture a guess that several of us on this very thread have some of the best "reference" HOME theaters on this green planet.

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post #73659 of 73677 Old 01-23-2015, 02:10 PM
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Originally Posted by beastaudio View Post
And yes, I would venture a guess that several of us on this very thread have some of the best "reference" HOME theaters on this green planet.
lol If you accept their definition of the word, that is.
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post #73660 of 73677 Old 01-23-2015, 02:20 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mogorf View Post
Yes. One doesn't need to own a Rolls Royce to acknowledge its luxury and comfort, or a Ferrari to acknowledge its speed and perforamce.


No. I don't look at grahps. WYSINWYH = What You See Is Not What You Hear. I've posted my opinion on REW previously. YMMV, no problem.

This is not what I said, but I said:"In my home system I have never experienced any drawback of DEQ neither for film, nor for music, YMMV." This is not the same as "there are no problems with the way Dynamic EQ works, period."

Does anyone on this green planet have a "top notch - 'reference' system"? BTW, DEQ has nothing to do with room acoustics, its a loudness compensation solution, would work in the same way outside.

Again, DEQ has nothing to do with room acoustics, its there to compensate the characteristics of our ears as MV is turned down from 0 dB setting.

Who is "we"?
So, no graphs, no evidence, no worthwhile response to anything. Understood.

I know you must know how to use REW because you have given such detailed insights into it in the past and how else would you know what it can and cannot do if you had not used it? Many of us in this thread have backed up our subjective opinions with REW graphs, including me, on many occasions. The fact you refuse so consistently to post any objective evidence of your claims and assertions leaves me with no alternative but to conclude that all you have to put forward to the thread are subjective, unsubstantiated personal opinions.
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post #73661 of 73677 Old 01-23-2015, 02:32 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by beastaudio View Post
The "we" is the rest of us that like to use science and objective measurements, the name of the game and the name of the site. And yes, I would venture a guess that several of us on this very thread have some of the best "reference" HOME theaters on this green planet.
What is important, IMO, is that many of us have gone to enormous amounts of trouble, expense and time in order to optimise our speaker and subwoofer placements prior to running Audyssey. To put the speakers where they "look nice" is almost guaranteeing that they are in the wrong place with regard to sound quality. Same for the sub. Before I attach much store to someone's opinion, I prefer to know how they have gone about ensuring optimum SQ in their room. This involves following accepted acoustic practices, using measuring tools where possible, experimenting with sub positions in different locations and so on. Those who truly value sound quality do not shy away from these practices and nor do they refuse to use the best tools available in order to determine whether their efforts have yielded improvements or not, or even made things worse.

With regard to 'reference' systems, yes I agree that there are several, or more, members in this thread whose systems qualify for that tag. But of course, it doesn't matter what kind of a system someone has, unless or until they start to tell you that they hear this or that, or they do not hear this or that, with the clear implication that their experience, in their room, with their system, has some applicability in the wider world. Once someone does that, then it is valid to question how good their system is, how well it has been set up, if the setup has been verified to have as few anomalies as possible etc. IOW, we need to know if what they are hearing is a result of fundamental underlying facts concerning the subject under discussion, or if what they are hearing is simply due to restrictions with their equipment or errors in the setting up of it. A crude example of that would be someone saying they cannot hear high frequency harshness, when many others can, and then we discover that their speakers are only reproducing up to 8kHz. So yes, I believe it is entirely valid to ask anyone who makes claims based on his own system and room just how good their sound quality really is, and what they have done to establish it and then to verify it. A lack of response to those questions is perhaps even more informative.
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post #73662 of 73677 Old 01-23-2015, 03:23 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rickardl View Post
From "Sound for Film and Television" by Tomlinson Holman
[see table in rickardl's post]

Fascinating! Since my room is 4,000 cu ft +, my Reference would be calculated to be about 7 dB below real Cinema reference (0). Since 4K+ is toward the top of of the range marked as needing 7 dB below, the maybe our "real" Home Reference would be predicted to be more like 6 dB below. In practice, we set our MV at 5 dB below reference, and readjust it if necessary (rarely).

Likewise, K. Barnes, too, finds -5 dB to sound like professional cinema level. Keith, how large is your room?

All of the above being said, I still think some BD movies are recorded or transfered at a somewhat higher level, or, more likely, compressed and crammed up against the top (nearer FS).
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post
...all you have to put forward to the thread are subjective, unsubstantiated personal opinions.
Like: "DEQ has nothing to do with room acoustics, its a loudness compensation solution, would work in the same way outside.

Again, DEQ has nothing to do with room acoustics, its there to compensate the characteristics of our ears as MV is turned down from 0 dB setting."
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I have searched but can't seem to find info on a slight problem. I realized after reading some on this subject that I had not done the test properly because I had only done the test in 7 spots so I am now doing it again. The problem is now that it gets to the end of step one and it says Caution - phase and tells me the speaker. In all of my other Audyssey tests this has never happened before. Can anyone tell me what I need to do?
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Simply ignore it.
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post #73666 of 73677 Old Yesterday, 03:34 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by garygarrison View Post
Fascinating! Since my room is 4,000 cu ft +, my Reference would be calculated to be about 7 dB below real Cinema reference (0). Since 4K+ is toward the top of of the range marked as needing 7 dB below, the maybe our "real" Home Reference would be predicted to be more like 6 dB below. In practice, we set our MV at 5 dB below reference, and readjust it if necessary (rarely).

Likewise, K. Barnes, too, finds -5 dB to sound like professional cinema level. Keith, how large is your room?
FilmMixer wrote this a few years ago about his volume level with Audyssey:
Quote:
Originally Posted by FilmMixer View Post
On the Onkyo 5009, -4 for DTS-HD MA, -8 for Dolby TrueHD/DD/PCM on BR's... -12>-16 for broadcast DD(Directv.)
I have a live room, but I know that 0 doesn't translate, i.e. it's too loud compared to what I mixed on the titles I've had a chance to check out (i.e. "Bridesmaids," "Luck" on HBO, etc...)
....
I use DynEQ with a -5 offset.

and


Quote:
Originally Posted by FilmMixer View Post

...
In my experiences with Dynamic EQ over the years (including now,) I've found that if I leave the offset to -5 for BR's/DVD's, and -10 or 15 for broadcast, you are fairly certain to get a well balanced approach.

Like others, I really don't bother with it for music.

YMMV.
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post #73667 of 73677 Old Yesterday, 05:02 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mogorf View Post
Like: "DEQ has nothing to do with room acoustics, its a loudness compensation solution, would work in the same way outside.

Again, DEQ has nothing to do with room acoustics, its there to compensate the characteristics of our ears as MV is turned down from 0 dB setting."
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post #73668 of 73677 Old Yesterday, 05:20 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by garygarrison View Post
[see table in rickardl's post]

Fascinating! Since my room is 4,000 cu ft +, my Reference would be calculated to be about 7 dB below real Cinema reference (0). Since 4K+ is toward the top of of the range marked as needing 7 dB below, the maybe our "real" Home Reference would be predicted to be more like 6 dB below. In practice, we set our MV at 5 dB below reference, and readjust it if necessary (rarely).

Likewise, K. Barnes, too, finds -5 dB to sound like professional cinema level. Keith, how large is your room?


All of the above being said, I still think some BD movies are recorded or transfered at a somewhat higher level, or, more likely, compressed and crammed up against the top (nearer FS).
I call it The Hobbit Theater... it's small. But it is very well treated and as you know, that 'absorbs' some of the SPL, or it seems to subjectively. I find -5dB gives me pretty much the experience I have when I go to the cinema. Looking at Rickard's fascinating chart, I suspect I should be listening at -10dB rather than -5dB, but I like a visceral experience And the treatments may be soaking up a few dB too. I too rarely touch the MV control.

Again, I agree with you that some movies are over-loud - probably compressed as you say. But they are the minority fortunately.

It is good to see that chart - it confirms the 'home reference' thing. It also makes a bit of a nonsense of Audyssey's obsession with 'reference' as they took no account of the pyschoacoustic effect of smaller rooms.
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post #73669 of 73677 Old Yesterday, 06:44 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post
I call it The Hobbit Theater... it's small. But it is very well treated and as you know, that 'absorbs' some of the SPL, or it seems to subjectively. I find -5dB gives me pretty much the experience I have when I go to the cinema. Looking at Rickard's fascinating chart, I suspect I should be listening at -10dB rather than -5dB, but I like a visceral experience And the treatments may be soaking up a few dB too. I too rarely touch the MV control.

Again, I agree with you that some movies are over-loud - probably compressed as you say. But they are the minority fortunately.

It is good to see that chart - it confirms the 'home reference' thing. It also makes a bit of a nonsense of Audyssey's obsession with 'reference' as they took no account of the pyschoacoustic effect of smaller rooms.
Get ready to use +5 to +10 when you get the DDRC-88A installed, Keith.
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Get ready to use +5 to +10 when you get the DDRC-88A installed, Keith.
LOL. For sure. It will seem strange at first. I may just readjust all the trims so that the MV stays at 0dB for 85/105/115 movie ref.
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Looking for some in place comparison (measurements) between Audyssey MultEQ XT and XT32.
I had them on the screen before, but can't find them anymore. Don't even know, if i have seen it here or in another Audyssey thread...
Anyone here to help ?
Thanks ahead...
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post #73672 of 73677 Old Today, 05:06 AM
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Originally Posted by gurkey View Post
Looking for some in place comparison (measurements) between Audyssey MultEQ XT and XT32.
I had them on the screen before, but can't find them anymore. Don't even know, if i have seen it here or in another Audyssey thread...
Anyone here to help ?
Thanks ahead...
They are in the FAQ Tech Addendum, here:

"Official" Audyssey thread (FAQ in post #51779)
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Is that the only measurment available in reference to the differences in the middle to high frequency band between the two?
I seem to remember to have seen several others, don't I ?

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post #73674 of 73677 Unread Today, 07:29 AM
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Is that the only measurment available in reference to the differences in the middle to high frequency band between the two?
I seem to remember to have seen several others, don't I ?
The measurements in the FAQ answer are the only ones I have seen.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gurkey View Post
Looking for some in place comparison (measurements) between Audyssey MultEQ XT and XT32.
I had them on the screen before, but can't find them anymore. Don't even know, if i have seen it here or in another Audyssey thread...
Anyone here to help ?
Thanks ahead...
I have this measured comparison in my vault:

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Thanks a lot.
Unfortunately those measurement graphs seemed to smoothed (?) quite a bit, so not much "real" (systematical) differences except at some point in the bass (appr. 75 Hz) and some "global" deviations at higher frequencies are visible. Anything more detailed (1/12 to 1/24 octave smoothing) would be appreciated, if available.
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