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8M views 80K replies 3K participants last post by  Mike Lang 
#1 ·

I've been in several threads lately where the topic has been all about Audyssey and I've noted that there's not actually a thread specifically for it. There's one that seems to be about it, but it's titled as being about the Denon 3806. Audyssey, of course, exists in far more receivers than the 3806 nowadays, so I thought I'd throw a starter into the pool to see if people were interested in having one thread to discuss all Audyssey issues/comments/questions/stories/impressions that they've come up with from their personal receiver-experiences.


Myself, i was quite anti-Audyssey when I first came across it. My ears were quite used to what they'd had before which was very bass & treble heavy. Time has passed and I've really come to understand the strengths of Audyssey and respect the clean, flat signal that I now love and enjoy (and couldn't imagine being without). I'd love to hear from anyone else that wants to chime in or discuss issues.


Basic starter-links:


The Audyssey homepage .


The types of Audyssey implimentations in different receivers.



The Audyssey FAQ


The Audyssey setup guide


====

Audyssey tips:

Microphone Placement


The microphone has been calibrated for grazing incidence and so it must point to the ceiling during calibration. Any other orientation will produce incorrect results.


The microphone response has been calibrated to match (on average) the response of an industry-standard ¼ instrumentation microphone. It is critical to use the microphone that came with the receiver and not one from another model that may have a different calibration curve.


It is also important to place the microphone on a tripod or other stand so that it is at ear height. We strongly recommend against holding the microphone in your hand because this can give rise to low frequency handling noise that will cause the MultEQ filters to compensate by cutting those frequencies. Furthermore, it is not recommended to place the microphone on the back of the couch or recliner. If a tripod is used, care must be taken to ensure that the microphone is placed at a height just above the seat back so that reflections from the seat do not cause problems at higher frequencies.


The first microphone position is used to calculate the distances to each loudspeaker and subwoofer and set the delays. It is also used to measure and set the trims. So, it is important to place the microphone in the main listening seat for the first measurement.


MultEQ measures the background noise level in the room before playing the test signal from each speaker. For the measurements to be valid, the signal to noise ratio must be above a certain threshold. If it is not, the test signal from that speaker will repeat at a higher level. If the noise in the room happens to be higher during some of the speaker measurements, then the test signals from those speakers will sound louder than the test signals from the other speakers. This does not affect the calculation of trim levels. If the room noise is too high even after the test signals increase in level, then an error message will be displayed warning the user that measurements can not be completed.


After the first position is measured, MultEQ measures other positions in the room around the listening area. These do not necessarily have to be in each individual seat. The idea is to capture as many points around the listening area as possible so that the acoustical problems that affect the quality of sound within that area are minimized.


For example, we recommend taking 3 positions on the couch facing the TV and then 3 more positions about 3 feet in front of the couch and parallel to the first three. Measurements up against the back or side walls should be avoided.


Some loudspeakers have rather problematic responses when measured off-axis (i.e. more than 15° away from the imaginary straight line that points to the listening position). In these systems, measurements taken too far away from the center line will show a reduced high-frequency response that may result in overcorrection and thus overly bright sound. Although it is difficult to predict which type of loudspeaker will have these off-axis problems we have most often observed them in poorly-designed multiple-driver arrays that exhibit very high off-axis lobing. In these situations we recommend a tighter calibration pattern centered around the main listening position and making sure that the mic is not placed in extreme locations and certainly not outside the plane of the front main speakers.

Checking the Results


Once MultEQ calibration is complete the results are stored in the receiver memory.


It is important to activate MultEQ by selecting one of the target curves. This is not performed by default after the calibration is finished and must be selected by the user. In a THX system we recommend using the Flat setting that allows the re-equalization to work as intended. In other systems, we recommend Audyssey for movie playback and Flat for music playback. Unfortunately, the music industry does not have any mixing standards like the movie industry so some music program material may sound better with the Audyssey setting. Front Align also uses the Audyssey process, but it does not apply the filters to the two front loudspeakers. Manual is not an Audyssey setting and does not use MultEQ filters. It is a simple parametric equalizer and will be subject to all the limitations that come with parametric EQ.


Small vs. Large speakers. This is the most commonly discussed topic by MultEQ users. The first thing to understand is that it is not a personal insult to your system if your speakers were detected as Small. It simply means, that in the room they were measured the - 3 dB point was detected at 80 Hz or above. This may happen even if the manufacturer's spec shows that the speaker is capable of playing lower. In fact, there are several benefits at crossing the speakers over at 80 Hz that have to do with power handling and headroom in the bass region that will be handled by the subwoofer amplifier.


The second most common question also relates to Small vs. Large. In the Denon receivers, MultEQ will designate as Large any speaker that has a -3 dB point below 80 Hz. For non-THX speaker systems this is an arbitrary definition that often causes confusion. All it means is that the speaker will not be bass managed unless the user tells it to be. Because Audyssey is not in charge of bass management, we have to abide by the manufacturers' rules and simply report the information found by the measurements to the bass management system.


In situations where the speakers do not play significantly below 80 Hz, an additional step must be taken to make sure that there is no loss of bass information. The user must set the speaker to Small manually so that bass management is performed properly.


Polarity: MultEQ checks the absolute polarity of each loudspeaker and reports it to the user. This is simply a report and does not affect the subsequent calculations in any way. It just asks you to check the wiring to make sure it is connected properly to each speaker. Sometimes we get false alarms. This is usually because the speaker has a driver (usually the mid-range driver) wired out-of-phase intentionally to make up for some problems at the crossover region. If a phase warning is shown, it is not a cause of alarm. Simply check the cables and hit Skip if everything is fine. Again, this does not have any effect on the EQ results.


Subwoofer distance: in many active subwoofers it is not possible to defeat the low-pass filtering. That means that the pre-pro bass management filters will be on top of the low-pass filters inside the subwoofer. The built-in low-filters introduce a delay to the signal coming in (because they have poles). This delay is seen by MultEQ as acoustical delay and is reported in the results. That is why sometimes the subwoofer distance is reported to be longer than the physical measured distance. The setting should not be changed because the blend between the sub and the satellites has been designed based on this time delay.


The design constraints for MultEQ were that it (1) must fit within a small portion of the DSP so that other processes can also run and (2) it must use FIR filters because of the well-known artifacts that IIR filters cause particularly in the time domain response. As it turns out, these two requirements are contradicting. In order for FIR filters to be effective and capable of correcting to low frequencies, they must consist of several thousand coefficients (taps). The problem is that the CPU power required increases with the number of taps, hence the dilemma. What we did at Audyssey was to come up with a different way to partition the frequency axis so that we can use fewer taps and yet not completely give up on low frequency resolution (and therefore low frequency correction). This allows us to take a 512 tap filter that would normally have a resolution of 94 Hz (meaning that any peak or dip narrower than 94 Hz would be missed) and significantly improve its resolving power. The resolution of the filter actually varies continuously with frequency and starts at around 10 Hz. Does this mean that MultEQ can correct an arbitrarily narrow peak or dip at 30 Hz? Of course not. The reality is that in the MultEQ XT version found in receivers, we can correct broader features below 100 Hz better than narrow ones. For example, a lump that is half an octave wide at 50 Hz can be fixed. A narrow dip or peak that is 1/3 or 1/6 octaves wide and centered at 30 Hz will be improved, but not eliminated.


The on-screen display in the receiver has very limited graphics. Therefore it is not possible to really show what the MultEQ correction filter is doing at all frequencies. It appears to only be operating on 9 bands like a parametric equalizer, but this is not the case. What is shown is a very crude approximation to the MultEQ correction and it should not be used to read exact values of cut or boost at the 9 frequencies shown.


Furthermore, there is no display for the subwoofer filter. This doesn't mean that there is no subwoofer correction. It was not added to the display because of interface and memory considerations.


(tips by Chris, CTO, Audyssey Laboratories)
 
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#49,501 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by FilmMixer /forum/post/21557318


FYI... I am running 12/20 on my 5009 (exact same FW as the 3009 and 80.3) with no issues.

Did you update by Ethernet or USB, FM? Any issues with the update process?
 
#49,503 ·
I haven't noticed this issue on my TX-NR809 with 12/20 FW update.


If this thread topic keeps going, I'm thinking some are getting a bit shaky about going through "DEQ withdrawal"
 
#49,504 ·
I updated my Integra DTR-70.3 FW via USB earlier this week (the 12/20 FW update). I haven't watched too many movies since updating my FW earlier this week, but the two that I did watch (Apollo 18 and Max Payne) sounded perfectly fine. In fact, these were the first movies I watched since turning DEQ off, and even when I watched Max Payne at -20dB everything still sounded balanced and perfect (bass, surrounds were still as present as the front soundstage).


I have watched a bunch of TV shows and have noticed zero dialogue problems/lack of center speaker impact as others seem to be experiencing.


After updating, this is what my FW version is listed as: "1061-0500-??10-3101" Not sure why two of the numbers are replaced by question marks but no complaints so far.
 
#49,505 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by FilmMixer /forum/post/21557528


USB.. they had issues with the originally posted FW file (it was corrupt and wouldn't unzip) but after that it was ok.

I think mabey the freeze up on ethernet was caused by the corrupt firmware

Also I keep

DEQ on havent tried the movie curve without it. I do think When the new firmware comes out I will up load it as all older firmware is on the new issues mabey it will correct the issue. I also am not swearing I might have done something to cause the issue but unlikely. But you never know.
 
#49,506 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by markus767 /forum/post/21556191


Not to prolong a unwanted or off-topic discussion, just for reference a Leq comparison of 3 different recordings.

Thanks for the plots. Just curious about Battle LA. The peak trace shows it was peak limited, but why does it sit -6 dB? I'd expect almost 0 dB. Dialnorm offset?
 
#49,507 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by rickardl /forum/post/21556023


This graph from Markus seems to indicate some processing in the surround channel in THX modes which is probably why it seems softer and less intrusive.

Yes, the Re-EQ and Timbre Matching alter the spectra of the speakers.
 
#49,508 ·
My situation.

2 rows of seating in our home theatre, 4 each row.

95% of time we sit in 1st row family of 5, middle love seat holds 3.

(Simply more immersive visually on the 130" screen).


I have "just" AudysseyXT in my Denon 2007 4308CI, not XT32.


I know from using REW my 2nd row is really good for bass, while the first row is where the issues are.


Up to now I've ran audysseyEQ at each seat position, both rows, 8 total.


Since the 2nd row is hardly used, makes sense to not measure there at all and focus on the 1st row.


Since I have only 8 measuring points, and limited filters for processing, this would let audyssey do a better job of eq-ing the 1st row, right?


Have others with 2 rows of seating done same?

Just run the eq routine on the master row.
 
#49,509 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by mtbdudex /forum/post/21560766


My situation.

2 rows of seating in our home theatre, 4 each row.

95% of time we sit in 1st row family of 5, middle love seat holds 3.

(Simply more immersive visually on the 130" screen).


I have "just" AudysseyXT in my Denon 2007 4308CI, not XT32.


I know from using REW my 2nd row is really good for bass, while the first row is where the issues are.


Up to now I've ran audysseyEQ at each seat position, both rows, 8 total.


Since the 2nd row is hardly used, makes sense to not measure there at all and focus on the 1st row.


Since I have only 8 measuring points, and limited filters for processing, this would let audyssey do a better job of eq-ing the 1st row, right?


Have others with 2 rows of seating done same?

Just run the eq routine on the master row.

MIke, that's how I run mine with XT (optimize for first row). For my 3 seat front row, first is MLP middle seat, next left and right seat, next in front of left middle seat arm rest, then directly in front of middle seat, then in front of right middle seat arm rest, and the last two right behind middle seat on left and right edges.


Seems to work well for me so far. My back row gets used infrequently enough that I'm not that concerned about it.


Here's front row sub response at each seat:

 
#49,510 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by mtbdudex /forum/post/21560766


Since I have only 8 measuring points, and limited filters for processing, this would let audyssey do a better job of eq-ing the 1st row, right?


Have others with 2 rows of seating done same?

Just run the eq routine on the master row.

Note that XT32 only uses 8 measuring points as well. Regardless of where your actual seats are, the general guidance from Audyssey is to place mic positions 2-8 within a 2'-3' radius around the #1 main listening position.
 
#49,511 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by oleus /forum/post/21557152


I came over to this thread to see if anyone had any insights into the strange issue, and less than 24 hours later two others over here with onkyos have started to hear similar weirdness. Hopefully this is something that can be fixed in the NEXT firmware update.

Chris Kyriakakis has repled to my query on Ask Audyssey:

"I am not aware of any issues with the firmware update on these models."


I have asked a supplementary question which is "can you explain why these guys find that using the Music curve restores their previously good, Audyssey-calibrated, sound quality?". Again, I will post his reply here.


It might be worthwhile for you to make a list of the people who have been affected by this strange problem, or even starting another thread for it ("Onkyo x09 series FW update issue - Music curve solution"). Because Chris isn’t currently aware of any issue doesn’t mean there isn't one and if enough people are affected and report it, it improves the chances of getting it looked into more closely.
 
#49,514 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by kbarnes701 /forum/post/21561485


Chris's reply to my supplementary question was:

"I will ask our test group to look into this."

Keith thnks I guess its time to call onkyo on this issue. I know I was slow to pick up on it as I was busy changing some other equiptment the last few weeks and did not pay a lot of attention to resetting audessey till the last couple of weeks. But there was a noticable difference. I hope other Onkyo owners will report this as well so they get involved.



I am a bit supprised though Chris did not come up with some ideas as to what could cause this kind of issue or suggestions to further trouble shoot it. Nice though that he was passing it on to his test group.
 
#49,515 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by william06 /forum/post/21561554


Keith thnks I guess its time to call onkyo on this issue. I know I was slow to pick up on it as I was busy changing some other equiptment the last few weeks and did not pay a lot of attention to resetting audessey till the last couple of weeks. But there was a noticable difference. I hope other Onkyo owners will report this as well so they get involved.



I am a bit supprised though Chris did not come up with some ideas as to what could cause this kind of issue or suggestions to further trouble shoot it. Nice though that he was passing it on to his test group.

thanks guys. several people called Onkyo directly but were told "there is no known issue", the best we got was an admin on the official Onkyo forums saying they would pass the info up the chain of command.


i'm going to try and make a video this afternoon highlighting the massive dip in audio quality going between movie/music curves.
 
#49,516 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by oleus /forum/post/21561574


thanks guys. several people called Onkyo directly but were told "there is no known issue", the best we got was an admin on the official Onkyo forums saying they would pass the info up the chain of command.


i'm going to try and make a video this afternoon highlighting the massive dip in audio quality going between movie/music curves.

That's what I had heard from them more than once. How does an issue ever receive the status "known" in Onkyo land when all issues are of the category "not known"?
 
#49,517 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by william06 /forum/post/21561554


I am a bit supprised though Chris did not come up with some ideas as to what could cause this kind of issue or suggestions to further trouble shoot it. Nice though that he was passing it on to his test group.

In accordance with previous practices when Chris says "I will ask our test group to look into this" usually he means they will look at their relevant factory sample unit and will try to reproduce the symptom. And then will come back with troubleshooting ideas depending on their results.


Worry not! It's also their interest as well to scrap out the problem.
Won't take long I bet!
 
#49,518 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by markus767 /forum/post/21561592


That's what I had heard from them more than once. How does an issue ever receive the status "known" in Onkyo land when all issues are of the category "not known"?

It will not happen. They publicly acknowledge "improvements" and "enhancements" but not errors.
 
#49,519 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kal Rubinson /forum/post/21561834


It will not happen. They publicly acknowledge "improvements" and "enhancements" but not errors.

that's what i figured the situation was re: Onkyo. my bet is that if something is discovered, it will be by the Audyssey folks.


if it's like D-Bone suggested and this is a result of a funky firmware update due to initial lockups, troubleshooting will be problematic (although a "successful" firmware update should result in the same firmware across the board, regardless of initial error messages i thought, since i have seen error messages a few times on each attempt, dating back to my first 709 last year that had no issues until one of the rear surround outputs stopped working).


although...that channel stopped working after that first unit got the update.


i'll never do another onkyo FW update via the net again, and i will also wait a little while before doing it next time.
 
#49,520 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by markus767 /forum/post/0



That's what I had heard from them more than once. How does an issue ever receive the status "known" in Onkyo land when all issues are of the category "not known"?

It's not limited to Onkyo. I am getting the same answer from Denon regarding an issue with the 4311 losing it's configuration when there is a power interruption. Even though a number of posters on the 4311 thread have experienced the issue, Denon claims it is not a known problem.
 
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