"Official" Audyssey thread (FAQ in post #51779) - Page 2485 - AVS | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #74521 of 74545 Old Yesterday, 12:03 PM
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Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post
Before getting to Audyssey, if it were me I'd want to know why my sub was humming and to fix it. The sub shouldn't hum so something must be wrong. Is it a loud hum? Is it mains frequency? A ground loop? What?

Second, if you are setting up to use 75dB test tones (the first stage that Audyssey asks for) the sound coming from the sub when Audyssey pings it should be relatively quiet, not cat-terrifying loud. This also suggests a problem somewhere. I assume you did adjust the sub so the reading is ~75dB, as Audyssey requires?

Only when you have fixed any problems with the sub is it worthwhile to figure out the Audyssey calibration IMO.

Thanks for the reply. I don't know know how to quantify how loud the hum is. It's not loud but it's clearly audible I'd say.

I don't know what "mains frequency" is so I couldn't really answer that. Don't know if it's a ground loop either.

I didn't see anything anywhere suggesting setting the sub to 75 db. I was just following the onscreen prompts for audyssey.

I agree that I need to fix any problems before calibrating, I just don't know if there are problems or if I just have something set incorrectly. Should my sub amp be set at 180 Hz when running Audyssey? I called Denon and they didn't seem to be able to give me a definitive answer either...

I did read through the links in your signature but there is a whole lot of info there to digest and could very well have overlooked something or just done something wrong...

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post #74522 of 74545 Old Yesterday, 12:30 PM
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Are you sure that's 180Hz, or is it 180 degrees (phase)? If it's the latter, leave it at 0 for now. If it's the former, and it's the crossover setting, you should set it as high as it can go.
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post #74523 of 74545 Old Yesterday, 12:47 PM
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Originally Posted by Alan P View Post
I see this all the time when trying to post in this thread and have reported it without much help.

The only way I've found around it is to make sure I quote someone before replying...probably doesn't help when editing the FAQ though.
This thread is unique on that aspect (Database error).

There are three solutions that I know of:

1. Like you said; quote another post.
2. At the page's bottom, last post, @ left; click on 'Reply'.
3. Just post like normal by typing your post in the large white dedicated space, and when done, don't click on 'Submit Reply' but on 'Preview Post';
then you can submit your post.

Those three tricks work.

* But the main thing is this: You have to remember (I never do myself). ...And if you don't remember, and that you post normally, without quoting, and click on 'Submit Reply' (and not on 'Reply' first), you are going to end up with that 'Database error' and your post is gone for good.
So, if you make the mistake of not using one of them three solutions above, and that you worked real hard on a post with lots of good info and scientific measurements and theories for over an hour and up to four hours; too bad, your hard work is gone.

It gets me all the time, I can never remember to post differently here in this Audyssey thread.
And the reason is very easy to understand why; it's because we are used to post normally everywhere else, and we just do the same here.
For this reason this thread is the one I experienced the most frustration over time. ...And I tried to stay away if I can help it, but it's not always easy to remember and also when you like to reply to a post.

It was asked before if there should be an official Audyssey thread Part Two, because this one was so humongous.
Perhaps that was the right solution ....

P.S. When Keith wants to add to the FAQ, he probably click on 'Edit'. ...Then 'Save'.
He'll have to check another route if he ends up with a 'Database error'. ...Check if 'Preview Post' is an option when editing before saving.
* [I just checked, and it's not an option; but 'Edit' and 'Save' always works fine for me]. ...And there is also 'Go Advanced'; that might help...

Last edited by NorthSky; Yesterday at 12:55 PM. Reason: Postcript
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post #74524 of 74545 Old Yesterday, 12:50 PM
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Originally Posted by Soulburner View Post
Are you sure that's 180Hz, or is it 180 degrees (phase)? If it's the latter, leave it at 0 for now. If it's the former, and it's the crossover setting, you should set it as high as it can go.
Hz, for sure. I'm rerunning Audyssey now with the setting at 180 Hz and the volume on the sub at about 25%. No explosions of noise yet...
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post #74525 of 74545 Old Yesterday, 02:04 PM
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Originally Posted by MNnative View Post
Thanks for the reply. I don't know know how to quantify how loud the hum is. It's not loud but it's clearly audible I'd say.
Can you hear it from where you normally sit, or just when you put your ear near the driver?

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I don't know what "mains frequency" is so I couldn't really answer that. Don't know if it's a ground loop either.
Mains in the USA is 60Hz. This is what 60Hz sounds like:


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I didn't see anything anywhere suggesting setting the sub to 75 db. I was just following the onscreen prompts for audyssey.
It is one of the first on-screen prompts - you have to set the sub level to 75dB. Do you have an older AVR? What version of Audyssey do you have? If your version of Audyssey doesn't prompt you to set the sub at 60Hz, download a free SPL meter for your phone and use that to get it close to 75dB using the volume knob on the sub. Do this before running Audyssey.

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Originally Posted by MNnative View Post
I agree that I need to fix any problems before calibrating, I just don't know if there are problems or if I just have something set incorrectly. Should my sub amp be set at 180 Hz when running Audyssey? I called Denon and they didn't seem to be able to give me a definitive answer either...
What does the legend under that sub control say? You need to set the sub crossover to its highest setting, so that it doesn't fight with the crossover in the AVR. This is covered fully in the FAQ and 101. They are essential reading.

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I did read through the links in your signature but there is a whole lot of info there to digest and could very well have overlooked something or just done something wrong...
Follow the step by step guide in the 101. You need to do each step to ensure a good calibration.
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post #74526 of 74545 Old Yesterday, 02:51 PM
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The hum from the sub was audible from the listening position. It became audible when I pushed the Hz. knob beyond about 60 Hz. Evidently the hum was a ground loop issue, I eliminated the ground prong from the sub amp with an adapter and the hum went away.

The receiver is new, I just received it a couple days ago. It is a Denon AVRS900W. I didn't see any prompt regarding sub volume calibration at all in the Audyssey calibration process. I'm not even sure how I'd adjust the sub volume prior to running Audyssey?

The sub control knob shows 40 Hz-180 Hz. I set it it at full, 180 Hz. prior to running Audyssey and didn't get the crazy loud blast the second time around. I turned the gain down to about 25% or the 9 o'clock position during this calibration. I believe I did everything correctly as asked by the onscreen prompts, I can review your 101 tutorial and double check. Like I mentioned, I didn't adjust the sub DB at any point other than to set the gain knob at about 25%
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post #74527 of 74545 Old Yesterday, 03:20 PM
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Originally Posted by MNnative View Post
The hum from the sub was audible from the listening position. It became audible when I pushed the Hz. knob beyond about 60 Hz. Evidently the hum was a ground loop issue, I eliminated the ground prong from the sub amp with an adapter and the hum went away.
Disconnecting a ground prong is a serious safety hazard. If a short happens in your sub, you could be directly exposed to 120Volts, which usually is lethal.

There are two common causes of 60Hz hum (and many less common): mismatched power phasing and poorly grounded CATV connections. From your description, I suspect the first.

Most US homes have two phases of incoming power. My guess is that your hum is caused by connecting your A/V equipment and subwoofer to separate outlets, each powered by a different phase. If that's the case, the easiest solution is to plug them both into the same power strip so that only one power phase is involved. Otherwise you'll have to test all of your power outlets to find out which is which phase.

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post #74528 of 74545 Old Yesterday, 03:37 PM
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Originally Posted by Selden Ball View Post
Disconnecting a ground prong is a serious safety hazard. If a short happens in your sub, you could be directly exposed to 120Volts, which usually is lethal.

There are two common causes of 60Hz hum (and many less common): mismatched power phasing and poorly grounded CATV connections. From your description, I suspect the first.

Most US homes have two phases of incoming power. My guess is that your hum is caused by connecting your A/V equipment and subwoofer to separate outlets, each powered by a different phase. If that's the case, the easiest solution is to plug them both into the same power strip so that only one power phase is involved. Otherwise you'll have to test all of your power outlets to find out which is which phase.
Both are connected to the same outlet via a power strip. The hum is there until I add the adapter to the sub which eliminates the ground plug.
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post #74529 of 74545 Old Yesterday, 03:50 PM
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Originally Posted by MNnative View Post
Both are connected to the same outlet via a power strip. The hum is there until I add the adapter to the sub which eliminates the ground plug.
Have you tried replacing the sub's RCA cable to test if there is a problem with the cable? Did the sub have a hum prior to installing the new AVR?

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post #74530 of 74545 Old Yesterday, 04:08 PM
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Have you tried replacing the sub's RCA cable to test if there is a problem with the cable? Did the sub have a hum prior to installing the new AVR?
I did try a different cable. I just pulled apart a composite cable and tried each leg. Same result.

Yes, it hummed with my old receiver as well now that I think of it. I guess that's why it was plugged in to the ground eliminator. I broke down my old system, moved and just set up in the new house with a new receiver as my old Denon AVR590 HDMI board went out.

Maybe the problem lies in my sub/amp setup? I built the sub, it's a BFM Tuba HT with 15" dayton inside. Attached to a plate amp (dayton SA240 I think?) via speaker wires. An RCA cable connects the amp to the receiver running between the white (L) input and the Subwoofer PreOut (1) on the receiver.

Last edited by MNnative; Yesterday at 04:17 PM.
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post #74531 of 74545 Old Yesterday, 04:08 PM
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Originally Posted by Selden Ball View Post
Most US homes have two phases of incoming power. My guess is that your hum is caused by connecting your A/V equipment and subwoofer to separate outlets, each powered by a different phase. If that's the case, the easiest solution is to plug them both into the same power strip so that only one power phase is involved. Otherwise you'll have to test all of your power outlets to find out which is which phase.
This wouldn't apply to equipment plugged into different outlets that are on the same circuit, right? My basement has 3 outlets but they are all connected together. I replaced the first one with a GFCI outlet and when you test it, all three outlets lose power.

Since I plan on having a 2nd sub, it should be okay to use whatever outlet is most convenient right?
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post #74532 of 74545 Old Yesterday, 04:17 PM
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Originally Posted by Soulburner View Post
This wouldn't apply to equipment plugged into different outlets that are on the same circuit, right? My basement has 3 outlets but they are all connected together. I replaced the first one with a GFCI outlet and when you test it, all three outlets lose power.

Since I plan on having a 2nd sub, it should be okay to use whatever outlet is most convenient right?
In my experience, the most likely cause of this hum is your cable TV box, if you have cable TV, that is. The cable TV system is grounded at a completely different point, maybe at the entrance to the home, or even at the pole. IF you have cable TV, try disconnecting the incoming RG-6 cable from the back of the cable box temporarily, and see if the hum goes away. If it does, you'll know that was it.
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post #74533 of 74545 Old Yesterday, 04:25 PM
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In my experience, the most likely cause of this hum is your cable TV box, if you have cable TV, that is. The cable TV system is grounded at a completely different point, maybe at the entrance to the home, or even at the pole. IF you have cable TV, try disconnecting the incoming RG-6 cable from the back of the cable box temporarily, and see if the hum goes away. If it does, you'll know that was it.

Yep. Cable unhooked, hum gone. Now, aside from buying a big antenna and canceling Directv, how do I fix it?
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post #74534 of 74545 Old Yesterday, 07:21 PM
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Yep. Cable unhooked, hum gone. Now, aside from buying a big antenna and canceling Directv, how do I fix it?
I assume that the power cord for DirecTV box is plugged into the same outlet or surge protector that most of the rest of your equipment is connected to?
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post #74535 of 74545 Old Yesterday, 07:33 PM
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I assume that the power cord for DirecTV box is plugged into the same outlet or surge protector that most of the rest of your equipment is connected to?
And I forgot to mention.........there is a plethora of information on the Internet about people with this exact same problem, and some of the things they've done to fix it. I googled: audio ground hum DirecTV receiver and found a ton of hits. One really interesting message board about this was at:
http://www.dslreports.com/forum/r267...rectv-receiver
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post #74536 of 74545 Old Today, 02:54 AM
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Both are connected to the same outlet via a power strip. The hum is there until I add the adapter to the sub which eliminates the ground plug.
While it is OK to bypass the ground for a short while as proof of concept, it is extremely dangerous to lift the ground permanently. As Selden says, this has the potential to kill you or anyone who operates or touches your gear.

Now you know that you have a ground loop issue, you need to find out why and where and fix it at source.

EDIT: I see you have located the problem now so you will be able to fix it and reconnect the ground to the sub. I really can't stress how important this is.

Once you have done this, we can continue with your Audyssey troubleshooting, if still needed.
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post #74537 of 74545 Old Today, 05:56 AM
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I assume that the power cord for DirecTV box is plugged into the same outlet or surge protector that most of the rest of your equipment is connected to?
Yes, it's plugged in to the same surge protector.

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Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post
While it is OK to bypass the ground for a short while as proof of concept, it is extremely dangerous to lift the ground permanently. As Selden says, this has the potential to kill you or anyone who operates or touches your gear.

Now you know that you have a ground loop issue, you need to find out why and where and fix it at source.

EDIT: I see you have located the problem now so you will be able to fix it and reconnect the ground to the sub. I really can't stress how important this is.

Once you have done this, we can continue with your Audyssey troubleshooting, if still needed.
I'll do some searching and see if I can figure out a proper fix. I've seen those in-line filters but I'm not if they'd cause reception issues.

I guess I didn't think eliminating the ground plug was such a big deal. I see lots of electrical devices around that don't have ground plugs. Where, in this system, does the danger lie? Like, where would somebody potentially get shocked? I can't imagine anybody opening up the amplifier and poking around inside it with it plugged in.
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post #74538 of 74545 Old Today, 06:12 AM
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Yes, it's plugged in to the same surge protector.



I'll do some searching and see if I can figure out a proper fix. I've seen those in-line filters but I'm not if they'd cause reception issues.

I guess I didn't think eliminating the ground plug was such a big deal. I see lots of electrical devices around that don't have ground plugs. Where, in this system, does the danger lie? Like, where would somebody potentially get shocked? I can't imagine anybody opening up the amplifier and poking around inside it with it plugged in.
Equipment with only two prongs are designed differently from devices which include a ground pin.

http://www.quora.com/Does-the-third-...improve-safety

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post #74539 of 74545 Old Today, 06:52 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MNnative View Post
Yes, it's plugged in to the same surge protector.



I'll do some searching and see if I can figure out a proper fix. I've seen those in-line filters but I'm not if they'd cause reception issues.

I guess I didn't think eliminating the ground plug was such a big deal. I see lots of electrical devices around that don't have ground plugs. Where, in this system, does the danger lie? Like, where would somebody potentially get shocked? I can't imagine anybody opening up the amplifier and poking around inside it with it plugged in.
Many devices are designed without a ground prong on the mains plug. They have a double-insulated design which does not expose you to the risk of death if there is an internal short circuit. The danger is that if anything goes wrong inside your amp, due to malfunction or disturbance (eg when the gear is moved or knocked) live current can be directed to the metal parts which are externally exposed. If this happens and you, or your loved ones, or friends, touch the exposed metal, you become part of the circuit and mains current passes through your body on the way to earth. If this happens there is a serious risk of death.
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Regarding Dynamic EQ, what's the maximum dB boost for the surrounds? Can it be as much as 6dB?
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Yep. Cable unhooked, hum gone. Now, aside from buying a big antenna and canceling Directv, how do I fix it?
Hi MNnative, glad to hear the hum is gone after disconnecting the Directv box coax cable. From hereon, the solution is very simple.

Go out and buy a surge protector with coax cable protection and you're done. Something like this. (Remark: you will also need an extra coax cable, i.e. the original one running from cable TV company to surge protector (this one you already have) and another one running from surge protector to cable TV box.

In a nutshell, a power company always provides one ground for a household, no matter how many phases you might have, although a "normal" house hold usually needs only one phase.

The problem occurs when the cable TV company's cable network ground in town is independent of the power company's network ground.

What does the surge protector do? It physically connects the two grounds in the box, resulting in one single ground for your household.

Please note, in order to form a ground loop a minimum of two (independent) grounds are needed. That's what is happeing in your home at the moment. With the above recommended surge protector you will have simply solved the problem. Been there, done that.
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post #74542 of 74545 Old Today, 12:48 PM
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Regarding Dynamic EQ, what's the maximum dB boost for the surrounds? Can it be as much as 6dB?
Depends on the Master Volume setting. On a calibrated system at 0 dB MV it should be zero dB and as you turn down the MV the boost will increase.

Anyone who has ever measured such boost, please chime in. Interesting question raised by Skylinestar, indeed!
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Depends on the Master Volume setting. On a calibrated system at 0 dB MV it should be zero dB and as you turn down the MV the boost will increase.

Anyone who has ever measured such boost, please chime in. Interesting question raised by Skylinestar, indeed!
I think the ballpark numbers I had measured was about a 1db boost for every 5db below reference. So in a low, casual listening level of -20db they would be boosted about 4db. Back when I used DynEQ I had reduced surround levels by 2db since I watched movies around -15 or -10 and that essentially gave them no boost.
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I'll do some searching and see if I can figure out a proper fix. I've seen those in-line filters but I'm not if they'd cause reception issues.

Ground Loops - Eliminating System Hum and Buzz
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post #74545 of 74545 Old Today, 05:04 PM
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Good link.
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