"Official" Audyssey thread (FAQ in post #51779) - Page 2500 - AVS | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #74971 of 74997 Old Yesterday, 03:26 PM
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Originally Posted by Alan P View Post
I do all my sub moving pre-Audyssey (before Audyssey calibration) so I can see which position provides Audyssey with the best frequency response to work with. After I run Audyssey, the subs don't move.
That's where I'm confused. When you are testing, you run a test tone thru REW? If yes then it goes thru avr which uses the sub distance. So when you move sub, that distance is not correct.

Or you are doing in a different way?
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post #74972 of 74997 Old Yesterday, 03:28 PM
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Originally Posted by NorthSky View Post
♦ Yes.



♦ Each time you move your subs around (different physical positions), you have to rerun Audyssey.
Some people use REW to verify, others their ears. ...Two words: Experimentation, Listening.
That's what I was afraid of. This sounds like a very slow process. Even 3 inches of movement can bring a difference. Multiply that by number of subs and now you'd have to re-calibrate a lot of times.

I use REW for testing. Great software :-)
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post #74973 of 74997 Old Yesterday, 03:31 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SherazNJ View Post
That's what I was afraid of. This sounds like a very slow process. Even 3 inches of movement can bring a difference. Multiply that by number of subs and now you'd have to re-calibrate a lot of times.

I use REW for testing. Great software :-)
Try REW Room Sim, it's neat!
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post #74974 of 74997 Old Yesterday, 03:54 PM
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Originally Posted by SherazNJ View Post
In order to find best place for my subs, I need to move it around. But in avr the distance is already set. Does that mean that each time I move the sub to new location, I need to run Audyssey at least for 1 point so that it can calculate the distance?
For example, say my sub is at distance set in avr to 17ft by audyssey. Now I want to see how subs react when I move subs physically 1 foot ahead. So I first turn Audyssey off and then move it physically 1 foot ahead. Now when I run the test tone, avr still has subs distance set to 17ft which is incorrect.
...
Run Audyssey again after moving any speaker or the MLP.

There are (at least?) two distance indicators on some AVRs: 1) The one under "Manual" which indicates the distance you last manually set (if you ever did), even if you have since moved your sub to the moon -- it will be the same as the next one (#2) if you never set it manually, & 2) The one under something like "Auto set up" , -> then something like "Parameter Check" -> then something like "Distance check." This one is the distance that Audyssey set, and it won't change unless you run Audyssey again, even if you move your sub to Saturn.

The terminology above is what my Marantz pre/pro uses.

Audyssey sets my distances precisely, to about a tolerance of 1.5 " or less. These repeatable figures also pretty accurately represent the measuring tape distances from the MLP to the diaphragm of the midrange drivers. Audyssey sets my subwoofer to a greater distance than it is physically, because it, like many, incorporates some delay, and Audyssey (rightly, IMO) really measures delay rather than distance.

I'm happy leaving things as Audyssey sets them, with the exception of the subwoofer level, which I turn up, and tone control settings for some individual disks (these are the true tone conrols -- Bass & Treble -- which do not disable Audyssey, not the virtual sliders, which turn Audyssey off).
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post #74975 of 74997 Old Yesterday, 03:57 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SherazNJ View Post
That's where I'm confused. When you are testing, you run a test tone thru REW? If yes then it goes thru avr which uses the sub distance. So when you move sub, that distance is not correct.

Or you are doing in a different way?
The sub distance setting (if you only have a single sub) only matters when you are integrating with the mains/CC, while you are finding the best sub placement you usually don't try to integrate with the mains/CC at the same time, that is done post-Audyssey.

If you have 2 subs (and SubEQ HT) then it becomes a bit more difficult because you have 2 sub distance settings and those do matter when positioning the subs because it keeps them in-phase. Then you should re-run Audyssey each time, but you only need to run the first mic position to set the sub distance settings.

Alternately, you can just adjust the sub distance setting of the sub you moved by the approximate physical distance you moved it, of which the smallest increment (that I know of) is .5' (so, moving your sub 3" would not require you to re-run Audyssey ). This would probably get you close enough for the purposes of testing until you wanted to re-run Audyssey.


Below is a great post by Mark Seaton that might help you:


Quote:
Take a subwoofer only measurement in your first subwoofer location while noting signal levels to the subwoofer and volume setting.
Do NOT change any signal levels and start moving the subwoofer to any other possible locations saving a measurement at each location. The response should be louder or softer from different locations and you want to see this.
Choose the location with the balance of fewest dips and most efficiency across the subwoofer range.
If you have more than 1 subwoofer, pick locations that compliment eachother where dips do not overlap.
With multiple subwoofers overlay individual responses and then measure both together driven at the same level to see how they sum. Maximum summation of 2 equal sources is +6dB. Unless there is a big peak, the goal is to get the sum to be +0-6dB and not negative. Moving the sub or adding delay to the closer sub is my preferred way to make this adjustment.
If manually EQ'ing, now apply EQ to the subwoofer alone while also watching for peaks out to 120-200Hz that go above the target or above flat flat if no HP is in the measurement.
Now run any auto-EQ/room correction.
Measure the subwoofer alone and center channel alone. Then the combination of the 2 as shown in AustinJerry's post above.
Make adjustments to the subwoofer distance setting, most often adding to the physically measured distance at 0-8ms.
Choose the smoothest interaction and adjust the crossovers up or down if you see room for improvement.
If you have separate EQ on the subwoofer you can sometimes improve a lumpy/peaky summation by adding a notch to the subwoofer around the crossover range. The benefit to dialog and music balance far outweighs a small dip to the LFE channel.
Next compare the interaction with the left & right speakers making crossover setting and delay adjustments to get a best fit for both.
The more you listen to movies & surround concerts, the more you should prioritize the center channel vs. left/right.
Now measure what happens when you increase the subwoofer level by 3,6 and 9dB to understand what happens when raising the sub level.
Do some listening and adjust the subwoofer level and/or shape to what you are after, and then re-measure subwoofer-center interaction to insure any ramping up in response you add is as smooth as practical.
Enjoy!
Source: Simplified REW Setup and Use (USB Mic & HDMI Connection) Including Measurement Techniques and How To Interpret Graphs
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Audyssey FAQ
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post #74976 of 74997 Old Yesterday, 04:12 PM
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Originally Posted by Alan P View Post
...
Alternately, you can just adjust the sub distance setting of the sub you moved by the approximate physical distance you moved it, of which the smallest increment (that I know of) is .5' .
...
On my Marantz A7005 the smallest increment is 0.1 foot, or
1 3/16 + inch.
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post #74977 of 74997 Old Yesterday, 07:31 PM
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Hope this is the right thread for this...but just finished my ceiling cloud to tame my 1st reflection that was vicious - and I was successful.


Then I decided I should re-run Audyssey to try and optimize, but now I am getting a CRAZY dip across LCR speakers that I swear was not there before. It is around 90-95 Hz across all three. Could this be a setup issue (using boom mic stand, followed the guide, etc) or is the ceiling treatment somehow sucking the life of that range....also attached the waterfall (geez this looks vs. what I had before)


If you need anymore info, just yell!





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post #74978 of 74997 Old Yesterday, 08:03 PM
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Figured this might help...I think my issues are sub related, but I have 4 "ok" subs and this graph looks fair (at least I think)


So why are the full sweeps so wacky...or am I losing it and doing something dumb maybe.


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post #74979 of 74997 Old Yesterday, 10:42 PM
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Originally Posted by toofast68 View Post
Hope this is the right thread for this...but just finished my ceiling cloud to tame my 1st reflection that was vicious - and I was successful.

Then I decided I should re-run Audyssey to try and optimize, but now I am getting a CRAZY dip across LCR speakers that I swear was not there before. It is around 90-95 Hz across all three. Could this be a setup issue (using boom mic stand, followed the guide, etc) or is the ceiling treatment somehow sucking the life of that range....also attached the waterfall (geez this looks vs. what I had before)

If you need anymore info, just yell!
How high is your ceiling?

Is it flat or inclined?

How far off of the floor is your ceiling cloud?
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post #74980 of 74997 Old Today, 04:45 AM
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Originally Posted by garygarrison View Post
How high is your ceiling?

Is it flat or inclined?

How far off of the floor is your ceiling cloud?
I will do my best to explain...


The ceiling is essentially two levels...it is roughly 8' 10" high in the tray section, which essentially ends above the first row. Then the back half (due to duckwork) is around 7' 6".


The cloud hangs from the try at the 1st reflection point, and is inline with the soffits and the back half of the room, so it hangs at 7' 6". The cloud is roughly 4" thick and it has an air gap of nearly 12".


Hopefully that all makes sense.


(As a side note, I moved my mic from the MLP to say 2' back, in between the 1st and second row, and the dip was still there..so it does not appear to be a room node issue...but I am lost. Of course it could just be my mediocre equipment)


My setup has a bunch more details if that helps.
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post #74981 of 74997 Old Today, 07:35 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by toofast68 View Post
Hope this is the right thread for this...but just finished my ceiling cloud to tame my 1st reflection that was vicious - and I was successful.


Then I decided I should re-run Audyssey to try and optimize, but now I am getting a CRAZY dip across LCR speakers that I swear was not there before. It is around 90-95 Hz across all three. Could this be a setup issue (using boom mic stand, followed the guide, etc) or is the ceiling treatment somehow sucking the life of that range....also attached the waterfall (geez this looks vs. what I had before)


If you need anymore info, just yell!





Quote:
Originally Posted by toofast68 View Post
Figured this might help...I think my issues are sub related, but I have 4 "ok" subs and this graph looks fair (at least I think)


So why are the full sweeps so wacky...or am I losing it and doing something dumb maybe.



First of all, your first graph (wacked out dip) has 5db steps on the left hand side...your second graph (subs no smoothing post cloud) has 10db steps. This will make it very hard to compare them directly.

Judging from those 2 graphs, it looks like the 90-100hz dip is not present in the sub only graph so it's logical to assume it is being caused by the interaction between the subs and mains.

Did you perform the sub distance tweak before? That could account for you not remembering the dip as you had eliminated it. If you haven't done the distance tweak you should, it will probably help that dip.

As an aside, what mic are you using and are you using a proper mic stand?



Quote:
Originally Posted by garygarrison View Post
On my Marantz A7005 the smallest increment is 0.1 foot, or
1 3/16 + inch.
Of course, you are correct...don't know what I was thinking. It's been a long time since I've seen .5' increments on an AVR (maybe 2-3 AVRs back).

AVR: Denon 4520ci, FL/R: Klipschorn, CC: Klipsch RC-64ii, SUR: Polk LS/FX x4, FH: Klipsch RB-51ii x2, SUB: PSA T-18 x2, DISP: Mitsubishi WD-73740, BluRay: PS3 & BDP-S5100, Remote: URC MX-700
--------------------------------------------------
Getting Started with REW
Audyssey 101
Audyssey FAQ
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post #74982 of 74997 Old Today, 08:16 AM
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Originally Posted by toofast68 View Post
Figured this might help...I think my issues are sub related, but I have 4 "ok" subs and this graph looks fair (at least I think)


So why are the full sweeps so wacky...or am I losing it and doing something dumb maybe.


Hi toofast,

Here's my take on your current issue.

1. You not only have to integrate sub(s) with the satellites, but all 4 subs also with each other. Name of the game: challenge!

2. The more number of subs you have the more difficult their double-integration will become, especially with the limited tools we audio enthusiasts have in our hands. "Difficulties of development are always followed by development of difficulties" - as the saying goes.

3. You may not like this, but here goes. Try to setup and measure your system with only two subs. Full stop.

Take care.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alan P View Post
First of all, your first graph (wacked out dip) has 5db steps on the left hand side...your second graph (subs no smoothing post cloud) has 10db steps. This will make it very hard to compare them directly.

Judging from those 2 graphs, it looks like the 90-100hz dip is not present in the sub only graph so it's logical to assume it is being caused by the interaction between the subs and mains.

Did you perform the sub distance tweak before? That could account for you not remembering the dip as you had eliminated it. If you haven't done the distance tweak you should, it will probably help that dip.

As an aside, what mic are you using and are you using a proper mic stand?


Of course, you are correct...don't know what I was thinking. It's been a long time since I've seen .5' increments on an AVR (maybe 2-3 AVRs back).

Ok...I will try to get graphs that fit together better. I did the sub distance tweak (at least I think I did) before all my room treatment, but have not done since....I will dig back into that for sure.


As for the mic...yes using a USB UMM Calibrated by Cross Spectrum at 90 degree with a proper mic stand. Now on to the next post of my 4 subs causing the issue maybe.
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post #74984 of 74997 Old Today, 09:52 AM
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Originally Posted by mogorf View Post
Hi toofast,

Here's my take on your current issue.

1. You not only have to integrate sub(s) with the satellites, but all 4 subs also with each other. Name of the game: challenge!

2. The more number of subs you have the more difficult their double-integration will become, especially with the limited tools we audio enthusiasts have in our hands. "Difficulties of development are always followed by development of difficulties" - as the saying goes.

3. You may not like this, but here goes. Try to setup and measure your system with only two subs. Full stop.

Take care.
You are killing me


But I get it....I will try with 2 subs and see what happens.


As a side note, I have contemplated getting an AVR with XT32 or going down the MINI DSP route to better integrate my subs. To me it appears the Mini DSP might be the way to go...I know this is a super loaded question...but does your gut say the MINI DSP might be the way to go ?


Of course I will report the 2 subs (as well as looking at the sub distance tweak again from above)


Thanks guys!
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Weird Audyssey Setting

I just re-ran Audyssey (on my AV7701) after swapping out my Velodyne HGS 15 for an Onix Rocket 10" sub (I know...it's a long story)

Anyway, the setup came back normal, other than the fact the the Rocket distance got set to 29 feet even though it's about 6 inches behind where the Velodyne was (which was set to 16 feet). At that setting the sub sounded completely distinct from the rest of the system. Manually changing it to 17 feet integrated it with the other speakers but I hate changing recommended Audyssey settings without a really good idea why.

Does anyone have any thoughts on what's happening?

Thanks,
Ian

P.S. The level on the Rocket came back at -5.0 which is a little outside recommended bounds for sub level but not waaaaay off...
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post #74986 of 74997 Old Today, 10:09 AM
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You can get 4 subs to work together, but it's not easy.

Are your subs identical? If so, you should use one sub and place it in every possible sub location, measure the response (no Audyssey) and choose the 4 locations that compliment each other - where one may have a null, the other may have a peak to counteract it.

Once you have graphs of all possible sub locations it's not that hard to find the 4 that will work well together. Get two subs working well together, add the third and integrate, then add the fourth...measuring all the way.

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Audyssey FAQ
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ihmeyers View Post
I just re-ran Audyssey (on my AV7701) after swapping out my Velodyne HGS 15 for an Onix Rocket 10" sub (I know...it's a long story)

Anyway, the setup came back normal, other than the fact the the Rocket distance got set to 29 feet even though it's about 6 inches behind where the Velodyne was (which was set to 16 feet). At that setting the sub sounded completely distinct from the rest of the system. Manually changing it to 17 feet integrated it with the other speakers but I hate changing recommended Audyssey settings without a really good idea why.

Does anyone have any thoughts on what's happening?

Thanks,
Ian

P.S. The level on the Rocket came back at -5.0 which is a little outside recommended bounds for sub level but not waaaaay off...
Audyssey can set the sub distance different for different subs due to the delay induced by the amp/DSP in the sub (or if you are using wireless the distance can be much greater).

Without the ability to measure your response the best you can do is what you did....adjust the distance "by ear". I recommend you get a USB mic+REW and do the sub distance tweak.


Edit: that level is fine. I actually prefer it around -8 to -10 so I have plenty of headroom to run the sub hot without going over 0.

AVR: Denon 4520ci, FL/R: Klipschorn, CC: Klipsch RC-64ii, SUR: Polk LS/FX x4, FH: Klipsch RB-51ii x2, SUB: PSA T-18 x2, DISP: Mitsubishi WD-73740, BluRay: PS3 & BDP-S5100, Remote: URC MX-700
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Audyssey 101
Audyssey FAQ
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Quote:
Originally Posted by toofast68 View Post
You are killing me
Mope, just trying to save your soul!


Quote:
But I get it....I will try with 2 subs and see what happens.
Waitng for results.

Quote:
As a side note, I have contemplated getting an AVR with XT32 or going down the MINI DSP route to better integrate my subs. To me it appears the Mini DSP might be the way to go...I know this is a super loaded question...but does your gut say the MINI DSP might be the way to go?
Hard to say, but I think you are already in the rabbit hole!


Quote:
Of course I will report the 2 subs (as well as looking at the sub distance tweak again from above)
Curious like cat!

Quote:
Thanks guys!
Not at all.
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post #74989 of 74997 Old Today, 10:28 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alan P View Post
Audyssey can set the sub distance different for different subs due to the delay induced by the amp/DSP in the sub (or if you are using wireless the distance can be much greater).

Without the ability to measure your response the best you can do is what you did....adjust the distance "by ear". I recommend you get a USB mic+REW and do the sub distance tweak.


Edit: that level is fine. I actually prefer it around -8 to -10 so I have plenty of headroom to run the sub hot without going over 0.
+1. Meantime, Alan, I always thought subs work in the "good old" analog domain, and so there is no DSP (Digital Signal Processing) involed in the sub amps. I may be wrong here!
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alan P View Post
You can get 4 subs to work together, but it's not easy.

Are your subs identical? If so, you should use one sub and place it in every possible sub location, measure the response (no Audyssey) and choose the 4 locations that compliment each other - where one may have a null, the other may have a peak to counteract it.

Once you have graphs of all possible sub locations it's not that hard to find the 4 that will work well together. Get two subs working well together, add the third and integrate, then add the fourth...measuring all the way.
Yep they are all identical subs...and I think part of my issue might be that I did this BEFORE my room treatments...but not after. I will get to work on re-integrating everything.
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post #74991 of 74997 Old Today, 10:53 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mogorf View Post
+1. Meantime, Alan, I always thought subs work in the "good old" analog domain, and so there is no DSP (Digital Signal Processing) involed in the sub amps. I may be wrong here!
Most modern subs have some sort of signal shaping via DSP integrated in their amps...I know mine does (along with all PSA subs). I also know that all the big ID companies use DSP to shape the FR of their subs...in fact, I can't think of a single modern sub that does not use DSP. The DIY'ers prefer amps with DSP (and PEQ, and limiters, and etc, etc).

AVR: Denon 4520ci, FL/R: Klipschorn, CC: Klipsch RC-64ii, SUR: Polk LS/FX x4, FH: Klipsch RB-51ii x2, SUB: PSA T-18 x2, DISP: Mitsubishi WD-73740, BluRay: PS3 & BDP-S5100, Remote: URC MX-700
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Audyssey 101
Audyssey FAQ
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post #74992 of 74997 Old Today, 11:09 AM
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What DEQ offset is best for movies that are on TV (not disc)? I've had my offset at 10 dB for TV watching, and that seems good, but the other night I watched a movie on Starz and found that moving the offset back to zero worked well.
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post #74993 of 74997 Old Today, 11:24 AM
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^^^

Since levels on broadcast television can vary wildly, there really isn't one RLO setting that is going to be "best" for all TV content (or even specific content [movies] on different channels). Either you change it every time, or you settle on a setting (what I did) and just live with the differences in levels.

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post #74994 of 74997 Old Today, 11:28 AM
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Most modern subs have some sort of signal shaping via DSP integrated in their amps...I know mine does (along with all PSA subs). I also know that all the big ID companies use DSP to shape the FR of their subs...in fact, I can't think of a single modern sub that does not use DSP. The DIY'ers prefer amps with DSP (and PEQ, and limiters, and etc, etc).
I see. Thx.
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post #74995 of 74997 Old Today, 11:48 AM
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^^^

Since levels on broadcast television can vary wildly, there really isn't one RLO setting that is going to be "best" for all TV content (or even specific content [movies] on different channels). Either you change it every time, or you settle on a setting (what I did) and just live with the differences in levels.
Yup. On the principle of "not enough boost is a lesser evil than too much boost" I pretty much set and forget at 10db offset. I'm not obsessive enough to try and tweak RLO constantly based on the material. I do have a SW Vol up/down command programmed into my Harmony activities so I can always tweak the bass on the fly if needed.

It is possible to program discrete codes for RLO 0/5/10/15 into a universal remote so a tweaked could go that route and have one touch switching.
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post #74996 of 74997 Old Today, 11:51 AM
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You can get 4 subs to work together, but it's not easy.

Are your subs identical? If so, you should use one sub and place it in every possible sub location, measure the response (no Audyssey) and choose the 4 locations that compliment each other - where one may have a null, the other may have a peak to counteract it.

Once you have graphs of all possible sub locations it's not that hard to find the 4 that will work well together. Get two subs working well together, add the third and integrate, then add the fourth...measuring all the way.
Yep they are all identical subs...and I think part of my issue might be that I did this BEFORE my room treatments...but not after. I will get to work on re-integrating everything.
The MiniDSP is a great tool since you can independent set delays and filters but with 4 identical subs I don't think it's necessary. With some patience and experimentation guided by REW measurements I'm sure you can get a good enough response with 4 subs that Audyssey can polish it off nicely.

If your subs were all different than a MiniDSP could be more useful because of the independent control you'd have over each. But that's another layer of complexity.

Last edited by batpig; Today at 11:52 AM.
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post #74997 of 74997 Old Today, 03:47 PM
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The MiniDSP is a great tool since you can independent set delays and filters but with 4 identical subs I don't think it's necessary. With some patience and experimentation guided by REW measurements I'm sure you can get a good enough response with 4 subs that Audyssey can polish it off nicely.

If your subs were all different than a MiniDSP could be more useful because of the independent control you'd have over each. But that's another layer of complexity.


Ok thanks for your candid feedback...so I will go to work trying to figure out what I can do with what I got and report back my findings.
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