"Official" Audyssey thread (FAQ in post #51779) - Page 2502 - AVS | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #75031 of 75056 Old 03-27-2015, 10:20 AM
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Originally Posted by batpig View Post
One simple thing is to display the graph not as an average but an overlay of all the individual plots that comprise the average. Then you can see what's actually happening at each point in space. It is possible that the dip is a nasty phase interaction that only exists over a small area and disappears a short distance away. This could indicate a simple fix may be a slightly adjustment of seating location.

Also just in case -- make sure you do NOT smooth the measurements prior to the RMS average. You want to average the unsmoothed plots and then AFTER averaging apply any smoothing. Otherwise it is "over smoothed".

IMO is the anomaly only exists at a small point in space and things look normal a short distance left or right I wouldn't sweat it too much.
I know I have work to do, but this is from late last night...as you can see the right seat next to MLP is cool....the MLP and LEFT SEAT are not so great. This is POST sub tweak, but what I did wrong is do all this with Audyssey off...meaning I got best RAW SUB response, then I did sub tweak to integrate to center, then I turned on Audyssey. Anyways...I will start over, but this is a bit larger a hole that I want (would you agree)


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post #75032 of 75056 Old 03-27-2015, 10:26 AM
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Looks like you just need to sit in the left seat

It's going to take some experimentation for sure. Ideally with 4 subs you'd be able to control that kind of spatial variation but clearly there is some phase interaction around the xover frequency.

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post #75033 of 75056 Old 03-27-2015, 12:52 PM
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Originally Posted by batpig View Post
Looks like you just need to sit in the left seat

It's going to take some experimentation for sure. Ideally with 4 subs you'd be able to control that kind of spatial variation but clearly there is some phase interaction around the xover frequency.
Tell me about it...no wonder my wife said it sounds so good !!


I will be experimenting for sure!
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post #75034 of 75056 Old 03-27-2015, 03:43 PM
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Originally Posted by toofast68 View Post
So is it possible, that my entire rabbit hole is in my head. I moved the mic 3" right of the MLP and wow...what a difference.

...


If the mic position you are calling MLP is right where the center of your head would be, then each of your ears might be 3" to one side or the other, and therefore O.K. At least that's the way it would be with my head, but, hey, I've been called fat-headed in the past.

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post #75035 of 75056 Old Yesterday, 06:06 AM
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Originally Posted by garygarrison View Post
If the mic position you are calling MLP is right where the center of your head would be, then each of your ears might be 3" to one side or the other, and therefore O.K. At least that's the way it would be with my head, but, hey, I've been called fat-headed in the past.

Gary,

What the heck are you doing up at 2:09AM editing your post?
At least we don't obsess much about this stuff, do we?

You will probably claim a 5 or 6 hour time difference from my EDT. Hawaii maybe.
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post #75036 of 75056 Old Yesterday, 02:23 PM
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Gary,

What the heck are you doing up at 2:09AM editing your post?
At least we don't obsess much about this stuff, do we?

You will probably claim a 5 or 6 hour time difference from my EDT. Hawaii maybe.
It was 11:09 PM here on the west coast. I have been at it as late as 2:09 AM, though.
OCD forever!
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post #75037 of 75056 Old Today, 04:20 AM
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I've just read the X4100 review in HTS here.
I'm surprised at the poor XT32 in eq the mains. It did a terrible job in the bass region.

I'm thinking of upgrading my XT (which did a terrible eq to the bass) to XT32...now I'm worried.
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post #75038 of 75056 Old Today, 07:06 AM
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Originally Posted by Skylinestar View Post
I've just read the X4100 review in HTS here.
I'm surprised at the poor XT32 in eq the mains. It did a terrible job in the bass region.

I'm thinking of upgrading my XT (which did a terrible eq to the bass) to XT32...now I'm worried.
I'm not certain what part of the review caused you to come to your conclusion:

Audyssey did do a very good job of flattening the majority of the response curves for the main and center. Both channels also tracked closely together after EQ, which is essential for HT. What left me a bit disappointed was the measured bass response and some fluctuation in the highest frequencies. With all the hype surrounding XT32, I expected better results. Now, I'm sure the XT32 fanatics will quickly suggest that I did something wrong. That's entirely possible, but I feel pretty confident that I gave the Denon good data to work with. Could the anomalies be caused by variations in mic placement for Audyssey vs REW? Yes. They line up with known problem areas in my room, so I suspect Audyssey just couldn't quite find the right crossover and EQ combo to knock out the large dips.

Audyssey is not really designed to be tinkered with. This is probably best for beginners, but can be frustrating to advanced users. Crossover and level can be adjusted manually, but XT32's PEQ filters cannot be. There is another option though: a graphic EQ. While a graphic EQ is intuitive and quick to set up, it doesn't offer the flexibility of a multi-band PEQ. Having said that, I was able to achieve a respectable improvement in response using the graphic EQ, as you can see in the graphs above. I was able to smooth response for the main and center channels, and bring the overall shape of their curves closer together, for the purpose of timbre matching. Now I cannot say that one method had a distinctly better sound than the other. In general, the post-XT32 performance was very good.

Two other features offered by Aydussey are Dynamic Volume and Dynamic EQ. I don't have a need for Dynamic Volume in my setup so I didn't use it. After trying various different content with Dynamic EQ turned on and off, I concluded that I prefer to leave it on for most music, and off for most movies. It seemed to exaggerate the bass too much for my taste during action movies, where I like to hear a bit more impact from sound effects other than bass. For music, however, at moderate to high levels, it works pretty nicely for most of the music I listen to.


MultEQ XT32 did a nice job, but didn't quite live up to the hype for me in a few areas, mostly bass performance. In general I've been very pleased with the Denon's performance.


Most users like to tweak the results after Audyssey, and the reviewer certainly falls in that category.
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post #75039 of 75056 Old Today, 07:41 AM
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Originally Posted by Skylinestar View Post
I've just read the X4100 review in HTS here.
I'm surprised at the poor XT32 in eq the mains. It did a terrible job in the bass region.

I'm thinking of upgrading my XT (which did a terrible eq to the bass) to XT32...now I'm worried.

I agree with ggsantafe. There is no reason to be concerned about upgrading to Audyssey's most advanced version. One conclusion the reviewer reached with which I don't entirely agree is that XT-32 is for beginners. There are undoubtedly users who can read the AVR instructions for running Audyssey, or even the Set-up Guide and the FAQ, run a single calibration, get great results on the first try, and stop. I am not one of those fortunate few. I think that Audyssey is actually a pretty sophisticated technology which requires some practice to implement at anything like an optimal level. I believe that the fact that we have a lengthy Set-up Guide, an even lengthier FAQ, and a 75,000 post thread bears me out on this.

If we were to take a poll of Audyssey users on the thread, I'll bet that the overwhelming majority of us required a number of calibrations (6, 8, more?) to achieve a really satisfactory calibration. And I'm not talking just about multiple runs on the first day. You try to achieve an optimum set-up in your room and then you run Audyssey. Then you hear something in your sound, or read something which causes you to slightly change your set-up or your calibration technique. And you then get better results. Heck, just deciding what specific microphone pattern works best in your particular circumstances is a trial and error proposition which can require numerous calibration attempts.

I think the reviewer achieved fairly good results for a single calibration attempt in what he said was a difficult room. I'll bet he could do even better with a really sustained effort. I don't really see Audyssey as a "set and forget" technology, for any but a very lucky, or perhaps less demanding, few. For most of us, it is a pretty sophisticated technology that requires researching, set-up tweaks, calibration practice, and sometimes post-calibration tweaks, in order to fully appreciate the benefits. As long as you are willing to put in a little effort, and I'll bet that you are, I think you are likely to be very pleased with the upgrade from XT to XT-32.
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post #75040 of 75056 Old Today, 07:50 AM
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Originally Posted by Skylinestar View Post
I've just read the X4100 review in HTS here.
I'm surprised at the poor XT32 in eq the mains. It did a terrible job in the bass region.

I'm thinking of upgrading my XT (which did a terrible eq to the bass) to XT32...now I'm worried.
I am in the same boat...but not sure if I wait till DST:X or pull the trigger now.
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post #75041 of 75056 Old Today, 08:59 AM
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Originally Posted by AustinJerry View Post
It is unclear what your graphs represent. You should be doing this:

- Turn Audyssey off.
- Position the sub for smoothest response.
- Measure sub only response with Audyssey off and post results.
- Run a fresh Audyssey calibration with sub in its new spot.
- Measure sub+center with Audyssey on. How does the crossover region look?
- Adjust sub distance to achieve the smoothest response at the crossover.
- Conduct the final measurement and post results.
Ok...after hours of moving around, this is the best I could do with my subs.

This is sub only no audyssey - the yellow is FLAT on my sub and the blue is a slightly different curve on the sub itself....looks like it just increases the dB a bit....so back to flat.



Then I reran audyssey and measured with the center on....moving the distance from 15.5 to 19.5 for best cross.

i don't like what audyssey did to bass between 20 and 60 - but I guess that is my old XT version perhaps ? But in this case Audyssey is not good for bass at all. Yet Audyssey did nice stuff a bit higher...



But now i have this massive dip at 450- ARGHHHHHHHHH



no matter what i do I can't get this right....any ideas on what else I can do....other than throw in the towel and call it a day,
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post #75042 of 75056 Old Today, 10:37 AM
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Hi all!

The past few days I kind of missed deep bass I was used to. Unfortunately I don't have anything but my ears to proove it so I might had a bad week.
Since I wanted to do some tests for some time now I started playing around with the XT32 and bumped into several questions.

Is it necessary to measure more than one position? I repeatedly compared both configurations (1 and 6 positions) and I didn't notice any difference. Even more, in some cases I thought the bass was even better when measuring a single (MLP) position.
So, if one always uses MLP - does even make sense to measure all 8 positions? I assume it's easier for Audyssey to set up a good response only on one position instead of doing a compromise for achieving the same for multiple seat locations.

Another interesting thing when measuring only 1 position: center channel rossover was set 20 Hz lower. But it was still set to 100 Hz. I managed to trick the Audyssey and slightly moved 500 Hz and 1 kHz bars on my external EQ: the center XO moved from 100 to 60 Hz. Not really sure why. If you lower a frequency Audyssey should correct that. And it did. But why lower the XO?

Then I checked the speaker levels with SPL meter and found out that surround speakers are approx 2 dB louder. I tried equalized test tone settings with THX optimizer. If I turn on DEQ - even more. Some scenes with DEQ are really loud in the back.

Which brings me to DEQ. We know that DEQ simulates the effects as they would be audible at reference level. In my explanation, it enhances height/side effects including bass. Could it be that DEQ is "preparing" the content differently each time? That would explain why I missed deep bass in some well known scenes. And why reloading a config file seemed to help.
I got to try the same scenes without DEQ and see what will happen. Until now I have been struggling whether to use the DEQ or not. But if it does not work the same every time then I see no sense using it.

It may as well be a placebo ... but I kind of doubt it. So far I was always able to trust my ears.

Probably the smallest 5.2.4 in the world!
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post #75043 of 75056 Old Today, 11:15 AM
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Originally Posted by toofast68 View Post
Then I reran audyssey and measured with the center on....moving the distance from 15.5 to 19.5 for best cross.

i don't like what audyssey did to bass between 20 and 60 - but I guess that is my old XT version perhaps ? But in this case Audyssey is not good for bass at all. Yet Audyssey did nice stuff a bit higher...



But now i have this massive dip at 450- ARGHHHHHHHHH



no matter what i do I can't get this right....any ideas on what else I can do....other than throw in the towel and call it a day,
If I read your graph correctly and green is no Audyssey C+Sub and purple is the same with Audyssey (XT) then I think you got a decent calibration especially considering the version of Audyssey. The dip at 450Hz is there before and after EQ so perhaps it's not minimum phase (i.e. EQ can't fix it)? I'm surprised your highs aren't boosted more but this isn't a bad thing. Have you looked at your room modes?

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post #75044 of 75056 Old Today, 11:46 AM
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Originally Posted by jkasanic View Post
If I read your graph correctly and green is no Audyssey C+Sub and purple is the same with Audyssey (XT) then I think you got a decent calibration especially considering the version of Audyssey. The dip at 450Hz is there before and after EQ so perhaps it's not minimum phase (i.e. EQ can't fix it)? I'm surprised your highs aren't boosted more but this isn't a bad thing. Have you looked at your room modes?

Yep - you got the graph correct...I am still baffled with what Audyssey does at the low end, but once again I think it might be my version.


As for the room modes ?? Honestly not sure what you mean by that.
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post #75045 of 75056 Old Today, 11:56 AM
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Originally Posted by gerchy View Post
Hi all!


Is it necessary to measure more than one position? I repeatedly compared both configurations (1 and 6 positions) and I didn't notice any difference. Even more, in some cases I thought the bass was even better when measuring a single (MLP) position.

So, if one always uses MLP - does even make sense to measure all 8 positions? I assume it's easier for Audyssey to set up a good response only on one position instead of doing a compromise for achieving the same for multiple seat locations.
It is generally regarded as good protocol to follow Audyssey's advice on this and to measure more than one, and ideally all permitted, positions - 8 for XT32. The Audyssey algorithm, we are told, needs to take measurements at several places in order to work properly. If you think about it, this makes sense, even for a one-seat room. One assumes that Audyssey will examine the several different measurements and look for commonalities between them. If, for example, there is a 5dB peak at 100Hz in all mic positions, then Audyssey can safely assume that it should be removed. If the peak occurs at only one position, then it might be best to ignore it, because removing it will adversely affect the other positions, where the peak was not actually present.

One compromise with a one-seat theater is to do what I used to do which is to focus the measurements around the MLP. You can do all 8 over the diameter of a 1 metre circle for example, starting of course with position No 1 at the place where your head usually is when listening.

"Thinking" that the bass might have been better is a dangerous way to assess what is actually happening. If you can take REW measurements then this is a more reliable way to know what is happening with the bass response pre and post calibration. Subjective assessment is dangerously unreliable and can vary day to day. For example, I sometimes think my system is performing below par, or above par, simply based on how tired I am at the time (most of my use of the HT is late at night). I know nothing has changed but my perception is different according to my mood and my state of tiredness.

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Originally Posted by gerchy View Post
Another interesting thing when measuring only 1 position: center channel rossover was set 20 Hz lower. But it was still set to 100 Hz. I managed to trick the Audyssey and slightly moved 500 Hz and 1 kHz bars on my external EQ: the center XO moved from 100 to 60 Hz. Not really sure why. If you lower a frequency Audyssey should correct that. And it did. But why lower the XO?
There could be a number of reasons. Putting the mic in different positions will cause the software to evaluate the room differently and if this results in detecting a different FR from the speakers, then the XO point will be affected.

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Then I checked the speaker levels with SPL meter and found out that surround speakers are approx 2 dB louder. I tried equalized test tone settings with THX optimizer. If I turn on DEQ - even more. Some scenes with DEQ are really loud in the back.
It is a well-known issue of DEQ that it overboosts surrounds, so that is to be expected. Why your surrounds are 2dB higher without DEQ is anyone's guess. The SPL meter could be the culprit, or you may have had the SPL meter mic in a slightly different place.

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Originally Posted by gerchy View Post
Which brings me to DEQ. We know that DEQ simulates the effects as they would be audible at reference level. In my explanation, it enhances height/side effects including bass. Could it be that DEQ is "preparing" the content differently each time? That would explain why I missed deep bass in some well known scenes. And why reloading a config file seemed to help.
That shouldn't happen. DEQ boosts bass and treble as MV is reduced from 0dB to restore the perceptual target curve Audyssey is aiming for.

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I got to try the same scenes without DEQ and see what will happen. Until now I have been struggling whether to use the DEQ or not. But if it does not work the same every time then I see no sense using it.
I cannot ever recall anyone saying they felt that DEQ was working differently on different occasions. When I was using Audyssey, DEQ was permanently engaged, and I never felt that there was any audible difference between listening sessions. If you are experiencing genuine differences from session to session, then something else is responsible.

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Originally Posted by gerchy View Post
It may as well be a placebo ... but I kind of doubt it. So far I was always able to trust my ears.
Trusting your ears is the worst way to proceed as far as evaluation is concerned as they are not reliable enough and nor are they measuring instruments. I would advise that you spend $100 on a calibrated mic and download and learn to use REW so that you can objectively analyse exactly what is happening in your room and then take the requires steps to fix any problems arising. Given the money you have spent to date on your system, and in changing things quite often, $100 is a trivial cost to give you much more certainty.
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post #75046 of 75056 Old Today, 03:18 PM
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...
Subjective assessment is dangerously unreliable and can vary day to day. For example, I sometimes think my system is performing below par, or above par, simply based on how tired I am at the time (most of my use of the HT is late at night). I know nothing has changed but my perception is different according to my mood and my state of tiredness.
...
Ahhh, but my sound system has its moods!

Seriously, though, It often sounds a little better after it has been running a few minutes. It's all solid state so there are no tubes to warm up, and the room, being insulated, and having extra thick walls, is of relatively constant temperature. It's probably psychological adaptation, but it's tempting to think it's the equipment.

gerchy: Since you are MLP oriented, I'd say run Audyssey again (after first reading the FAQ, if you haven't already), using all 8 mic positions, with the first three being 1) at the center of the MLP, 2) where your right ear would be, and 3) where your left ear would be. Scatter the other 5 mic positions around, as Audyssey says. When you are done, turn the sub trim up a little (the trim in your AVR, not the one on your sub).

Google room mode calculators before you do any of the above, in case you want to make a change in MLP or speaker positions -- this must be done BEFORE running Audyssey, if it is to be done at all.

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...
As for the room modes ?? Honestly not sure what you mean by that.
Google room mode calculators.
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Originally Posted by toofast68 View Post
As for the room modes ?? Honestly not sure what you mean by that.
From Wiki:

"Room modes are the collection of resonances that exist in a room when the room is excited by an acoustic source such as a loudspeaker. Most rooms have their fundamental resonances in the 20 Hz to 200 Hz region, each frequency being related to one or more of the room's dimension's or a divisor thereof. These resonances affect the low-frequency low-mid-frequency response of a sound system in the room and are one of the biggest obstacles to accurate sound reproduction."

More here.

I fear the problems you are facing in your case are basically derived from the fact that you have a two side open room where all the above room modes start to play completely differently than in a room closed on all sides. Ever thougth of making your HT environment into a sealed room (with doors, of course)?

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Ahhh, but my sound system has its moods!

Seriously, though, It often sounds a little better after it has been running a few minutes. It's all solid state so there are no tubes to warm up, and the room, being insulated, and having extra thick walls, is of relatively constant temperature. It's probably psychological adaptation, but it's tempting to think it's the equipment.
I think SS gear can change subtly after a little warm-up too. IDK but I suspect that some components need to reach an optimal operating temperature before they become stable. That temperature might be reached very quickly of course - much quicker than tube gear, which could explain what you hear. I know for an absolute fact that my old Class A amp has to be powered on a good 20 - 30 minutes before use. Any listening before that time has elapsed and it sounds so brittle that it hurts your ears. After that time, it is a smooth as honey. Anyone can hear the difference - it is not subtle.
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Google room mode calculators.
http://amroc.andymel.eu

www.mcsquared.com/modecalc.htm
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Bob, these room mode calculators are fine tools for a sealed room, but what would you recommend toofast with a room open on both sides? Headache, eh?
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Bob, these room mode calculators are fine tools for a sealed room, but what would you recommend toofast with a room open on both sides? Headache, eh?
If you have a room without walls, then there are no room modes.
...It's like climbing a mountain on the outskirts of the outdoors, in full natural wildlife state.
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Originally Posted by NorthSky View Post
If you have a room without walls, then there are no room modes.
...It's like climbing a mountain on the outskirts of the outdoors, in full natural wildlife state.
But toofast has a room with two walls out of four!! There are room modes, but how to calculate them is the question. Or better said: what can a room correction s/w like Audyssey do with it?
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post #75054 of 75056 Old Today, 04:32 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mogorf View Post
But toofast has a room with two walls out of four!! There are room modes, but how to calculate them is the question. Or better said: what can a room correction s/w like Audyssey do with it?
The two farthest walls have to be inserted into the cubic room's total dimensions. ...All quadrants.

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post #75055 of 75056 Old Today, 06:16 PM
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Question related to Mic Position guys. Faq says that Mic should be 2 feet apart for positions. Is that 2 feet in any direction from MLP or 2 feet from its previous position. So assuming I'm following the positions exactly in order shown in FAQ position post diagram
1 - Position at MLP
2 - Left from MLP 2 feet away
3 - Right from MLP 2 feet away
4 - Should this be 2 feet in front from 3rd position or should it be 2 feet away from MLP with mic moved forward?
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post #75056 of 75056 Unread Today, 09:03 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NorthSky View Post
Ok so I have a ton of learning to do, as you all know by now....I have an open side walled dedicated theater.


If I count the far walls, I have room 40' wide by 19 length - yet I have 2 ceiling heights 8' 10 down about 7' 8'


I tried the modecalc, but I am kind of lost...but it is late. I get the concept, but I can't seem to correlate it to my dip at 450Hz, plus it says this...so does that mean by dip is not related to room modes ?


For all practical purposes, any modal frequencies above 300Hz will be swamped by other room acoustic effects.
'
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