"Official" Audyssey thread (FAQ in post #51779) - Page 2509 - AVS | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #75241 of 75265 Old Yesterday, 03:00 PM
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Originally Posted by Gary J View Post
Which is EXACTLY what Audyssey Room EQ is engineered to do - optimize and area so more than one listener benefits. You have to jump through some hoops and try to trick Audyssey to optimize a MLP at the expense of others. Fine if you have a 1 person HT or don't mind less than the best experience for others in the room.
However, and I'm sure most experienced posters in this thread would agree, Audyssey unfortunately doesn't do a very good job at optimizing multiple seats.

If you want to have "great" audio in at least one seat and not just mediocre audio in a few seats, optimize the MLP and let the rest fall where they may. IMO, there is no way you will ever get "the best" experience for all seats in a room...it's just not possible.

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post #75242 of 75265 Old Yesterday, 03:38 PM
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Originally Posted by Alan P View Post
However, and I'm sure most experienced posters in this thread would agree, Audyssey unfortunately doesn't do a very good job at optimizing multiple seats.

If you want to have "great" audio in at least one seat and not just mediocre audio in a few seats, optimize the MLP and let the rest fall where they may. IMO, there is no way you will ever get "the best" experience for all seats in a room...it's just not possible.
Care to expand on this a bit more Alan? The creators of Audyssey MultEQ have spent 6 million dollars and ten years on this solution. And then they licensed it to world known AVR/AVP makers.

How much money and time did you spend on negating their findings?

No pun intended, just curious on how you got to your above conclusion! Really.
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post #75243 of 75265 Old Yesterday, 03:46 PM
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Originally Posted by mogorf View Post
Care to expand on this a bit more Alan? The creators of Audyssey MultEQ have spent 6 million dollars and ten years on this solution. And then they licensed it to world known AVR/AVP makers.

How much money and time did you spend on negating their findings?

No pun intended, just curious on how you got to your above conclusion! Really.

IME, if you try to EQ every seat, not a single one will have the "best" sound possible from your system. Just my own experience in my own room (although I've seen countless others on AVS say their experience is the same).

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post #75244 of 75265 Old Yesterday, 03:47 PM
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He's talking about one sweet spot, and the rest is averaging. ...This is acoustics, this is normal, this is science.
It's like going to a Classical Opera concert hall; there are many good seats, some better than others depending on which side of what ear you are sitting from.
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post #75245 of 75265 Old Yesterday, 03:48 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alan P View Post
However, and I'm sure most experienced posters in this thread would agree, Audyssey unfortunately doesn't do a very good job at optimizing multiple seats.

If you want to have "great" audio in at least one seat and not just mediocre audio in a few seats, optimize the MLP and let the rest fall where they may. IMO, there is no way you will ever get "the best" experience for all seats in a room...it's just not possible.
No I see the words "great" and "mediocre" as gross exaggeration. But feel free to jerry rig Audyssey any way you want to satisfy your preference at the expense of Audyssey's stated purpose - to optimize a listening area, which certainly is "possible" since it is better than it was before. Rationalize your MLP better than all others all you want, my SO and I get equal billing.
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post #75246 of 75265 Old Yesterday, 03:54 PM
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[QUOTE=.[/QUOTE]

Our seating situation is about as wide as a 3 cushion couch. I would sit far right, and she would sit far left, and the middle cushion is the MLP. I then take 3 measurements in my area, 3 more in hers, and then one more forward of the MLP. It pretty much gets our area for XT32 to correct for. I'm not sure why I would move the MLP one way or the other, further away from the other listener...

Especially when I have the fronts equidistant from the MLP and toed in. It is the sweet spot, and we sit one cushion to each side of it.

I thought that is why it had 8 measurements and 512 filters, after the MLP distance and timing, it can correct for the other parts of the listening area.

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post #75247 of 75265 Old Yesterday, 03:58 PM
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Originally Posted by Alan P View Post
IME, if you try to EQ every seat, not a single one will have the "best" sound possible from your system. Just my own experience in my own room (although I've seen countless others on AVS say their experience is the same).
Not the way I expected a scientific explanation. Heck with in Alan, but have you done a run with MultEQ and tried to sit at each seat to compare the SQ? What was the result?
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post #75248 of 75265 Old Yesterday, 04:06 PM
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Originally Posted by Gary J View Post
No I see the words "great" and "mediocre" as gross exaggeration. But feel free to jerry rig Audyssey any way you want to satisfy your preference at the expense of Audyssey's stated purpose - to optimize a listening area, which certainly is "possible" since it is better than it was before. Rationalize your MLP better than all others all you want, my SO and I get equal billing.
"Better than before" hardly equates to "optimized" in my book.

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post #75249 of 75265 Old Yesterday, 04:08 PM
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Originally Posted by mogorf View Post
Not the way I expected a scientific explanation. Heck with in Alan, but have you done a run with MultEQ and tried to sit at each seat to compare the SQ? What was the result?
I never said it was "scientific" Feri....I however did say IMO and IME.


I have a very difficult room, so maybe in a room that is much more "acoustically friendly" it is possible to get the exact same response at two or more separate seats....but, like I said, IME in my room it just ain't happenin'.

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post #75250 of 75265 Old Yesterday, 04:11 PM
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Originally Posted by Alan P View Post
Are you saying that you take the first mic position measurement between the 2 chairs, over the table?

I can't recommend this as it makes the space between both chairs the "sweet spot"...although no one actually sits there. You are actually compromising both seats by trying to optimize both. You need to pick one chair and designate that the MLP and optimize for the MLP. Any other approach is a compromise that isn't optimizing either seat.
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Originally Posted by gadgtfreek View Post
Our seating situation is about as wide as a 3 cushion couch. I would sit far right, and she would sit far left, and the middle cushion is the MLP. I then take 3 measurements in my area, 3 more in hers, and then one more forward of the MLP. It pretty much gets our area for XT32 to correct for. I'm not sure why I would move the MLP one way or the other, further away from the other listener...

Especially when I have the fronts equidistant from the MLP and toed in. It is the sweet spot, and we sit one cushion to each side of it.

I thought that is why it had 8 measurements and 512 filters, after the MLP distance and timing, it can correct for the other parts of the listening area.

The point I was trying to make in my first post was that you should choose an MLP for the first Audyssey mic position, otherwise the distance and timing won't be set correctly for either seat, that is all.

AVR: Denon 4520ci, FL/R: Klipschorn, CC: Klipsch RC-64ii, SUR: Polk LS/FX x4, FH: Klipsch RB-51ii x2, SUB: PSA T-18 x2, DISP: Mitsubishi WD-73740, BluRay: PS3 & BDP-S5100, Remote: URC MX-700
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post #75251 of 75265 Old Yesterday, 04:16 PM
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Originally Posted by Alan P View Post
The point I was trying to make in my first post was that you should choose an MLP for the first Audyssey mic position, otherwise the distance and timing won't be set correctly for either seat, that is all.
Understood. I just think with two primary listeners so close together, it's a compromise to be made.

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post #75252 of 75265 Old Yesterday, 04:21 PM
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Originally Posted by Alan P View Post
I never said it was "scientific" Feri....I however did say IMO and IME.


I have a very difficult room, so maybe in a room that is much more "acoustically friendly" it is possible to get the exact same response at two or more separate seats....but, like I said, IME in my room it just ain't happenin'.
Did you sit at all seats doing a careful listening comparison of SQ? Dialog intelligibility,...bass distribution, ...sound staging?

If not,...worth a try! Indeed!
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post #75253 of 75265 Old Yesterday, 04:31 PM
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Originally Posted by Soulburner View Post
Threads with huge post counts such as this one experience posting errors while the smaller ones tend not to.

Anyway, I have a simple question. Has anyone evaluated a new set of speakers and been sort of "meh" about them, then had Audyssey completely change how you feel about them? I have a pair of well regarded speakers that I wasn't thrilled with at first, but XT32 brought them to life big time. The lows, mids, highs, all changed drastically for the better, enough to change my mind about returning them.

I can't answer your question directly, as my speakers sound pretty good even without Audyssey, although much better with, but I think it's an interesting question. It is a commonly accepted "truth" on this thread that you don't actually hear your speakers--you hear the combination of speakers and room. As might be assumed on an Audyssey thread, we also tend to accept that room correction will generally improve the speaker/room interaction. Turning your question around, I wonder how many people try Audyssey, don't implement it very well, and then turn it off? Sort of like taking the speakers back in your question.

The reason I am bringing this up is because I read a discussion in the Atmos thread from a few weeks ago where Keith got flamed for saying that, all things being equal, an Audyssey-equipped receiver (D/M) would be better than a current Onkyo. A couple of posters were pretty unimpressed with Audyssey, and reading their posts I got the impression that they hadn't invested the time and effort to really perfect their calibrations. Keith was wise enough to let it drop, and I wouldn't have butted in even if I hadn't been reading several weeks behind the discussion. But it did make me wonder how many people don't actually come to this thread for help, but just bail on Audyssey after a half-hearted effort. I started linking the FAQ in my signature because of all the Audyssey-related questions I was seeing on a Marantz owners thread.

I accept the fact that there are some rooms so good that Audyssey can't do much to help, although it shouldn't hurt either. And I accept the fact that there may be some rooms so bad that Audyssey can't do much to help. And in some cases, perhaps Audyssey could even exacerbate a problem in a really bad room. But in the vast majority of cases, a combination of set-up and calibration technique is probably responsible for the negative results I sometimes see reported. For many of us, Audyssey isn't just dead simple, but you would think that most audio enthusiasts on the AVS forum would be willing to invest the time and effort it takes to improve their speaker/room interaction. I wonder how many of them don't even realize how much of their rooms they are actually hearing? To be fair, at least one of the posters on the Atmos thread had a well treated room, so he certainly realized the importance of the room. Oh well, sorry for the mini-rant, but your question took me back to some things I would have liked to say on that other thread.
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post #75254 of 75265 Old Yesterday, 05:37 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alan P View Post
However, and I'm sure most experienced posters in this thread would agree, Audyssey unfortunately doesn't do a very good job at optimizing multiple seats.
Quote:
Originally Posted by mogorf View Post
... have you done a run with MultEQ and tried to sit at each seat to compare the SQ? What was the result?
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Originally Posted by mogorf View Post
Did you sit at all seats doing a careful listening comparison of SQ? Dialog intelligibility,...bass distribution, ...sound staging?

If not,...worth a try! Indeed!
We have a 5 seat couch. After running Audyssey many times, always with the MLP dead center, the biggest, obvious difference in the seating is that the imaging is clearly the best in the center. The dialog stays in the center from all seats, thanks to the center channel. The orchestra shifts some as one moves to the sides. Other than imaging, the overall sound quality is about the same in the center three seats, and nearly as good in the two farthest out seats.

From any seat, the SQ is clearly better with Audyssey than without it.
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post #75255 of 75265 Old Yesterday, 06:46 PM
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Originally Posted by mthomas47 View Post
I can't answer your question directly, as my speakers sound pretty good even without Audyssey, although much better with, but I think it's an interesting question. It is a commonly accepted "truth" on this thread that you don't actually hear your speakers--you hear the combination of speakers and room. As might be assumed on an Audyssey thread, we also tend to accept that room correction will generally improve the speaker/room interaction.
I agree, and have experienced this personally after moving speakers to a different room.

But after you're done, the most telling thing is to switch Audyssey on and off while music is playing. You can A/B the differences and sometimes it's just amazing. If I blindfolded someone and had them listen to Audyssey on/off, but told them I was switching between different pairs of speakers, they'd believe it.
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post #75256 of 75265 Unread Today, 08:22 AM
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Originally Posted by garygarrison View Post
We have a 5 seat couch. After running Audyssey many times, always with the MLP dead center, the biggest, obvious difference in the seating is that the imaging is clearly the best in the center. The dialog stays in the center from all seats, thanks to the center channel. The orchestra shifts some as one moves to the sides. Other than imaging, the overall sound quality is about the same in the center three seats, and nearly as good in the two farthest out seats.

From any seat, the SQ is clearly better with Audyssey than without it.

Gary,

As usual, this is a good post, and I think you have put your finger on an important point. We often conflate the issues of overall sound quality and REQ, when in fact, they are distinct. I believe that room correction can make a positive contribution to overall sound quality (by reducing distortion) in the great majority of cases, but that is only one factor out of several. Examples of other factors include tonality, imaging, and for want of better words, coherence or coalescence of sound. In theory, Audyssey can help somewhat with those other factors, as well, but there are some practical limitations.

We all know how important our set-up is. If we can arrange our front speakers and our MLP in an equilateral triangle, we can achieve better imaging, and more coherent sound, both with and without Audyssey. I have mentioned in the past that I consider Audyssey a valuable diagnostic tool specifically because it tends to help us concentrate on set-up, and rewards us with distinguishably improved sound when we get things right. But the limitation I referred to earlier concerns the 1st mic. position or the MLP. Wherever we locate that 1st position is the specific point in space where Audyssey will set our distances and our levels. So the sound will be specifically intended to coalesce at that point in space. The arrival times from the various speakers, and their volumes are intended to concentrate at just that point in space. As we move further away from that point in space, the reduction of distortion may continue to work well, but the sound will necessarily lose some degree of coherence. (I also understand that distortion effects can occur as we move away from the MLP, but that is a separate issue from the one that I am addressing here.)

I don't see this as a major problem; just as something to understand. In my room, I do occasionally move to different areas of the room when I watch TV. For instance, I may sit on a sofa with a small table so I can eat something, rather than sitting in my recliner. When I do that, my REQ doesn't audibly change. My bass still sounds smooth rather than somewhat muddy or boomy (which it would without Audyssey) and I still have good mid-range clarity. But I do lose some imaging and coherence. I am no longer occupying the point in space where the soundstage was intended to converge. Frankly, that doesn't bother me as much for movies or TV as it probably would some members of the thread. But it bothers me a lot when I listen to music, because I frequently listen with my eyes closed, and I want to be at that point in space where the soundstage converges so that I will get precise imaging and coalescence. You mentioned orchestral works, but I notice it most for small groups, or instrumental or vocal solos. I have a fairly large room, with speakers widely separated, so it is pretty easy to hear if the soundstage collapses a bit in one direction or another. This isn't an EQ issue. It is a simple fact of picking a point in space where the soundstage will be strongest.

In the situation of the OP, with two chairs used fairly equally, I believe that the best compromise for me would be to go to a mid-point between the two chairs and to experience symmetrical and equitable sound quality. And that is just what he does. With three seats, or five, as in your example, I would go to the center seat, just as you have done. And for a single listener/viewer, there is no question where the best seat in the house will be. The point again is that while Audyssey is designed to EQ an area, it is also specifically designed to set distances and levels at the 1st microphone position, and because that is where the soundstage is intended to converge, it will necessarily have some audible acoustic advantages. Seen in that light, the decision as to where to locate the 1st mic. position obviously takes on real importance. All of us will make the choices that best suit our specific circumstances and usage patterns, but we should be clear about the fact that we are making a deliberate choice.

Mike

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Hey guys,

I'm getting a receiver with XT32 and SubEQ tomorrow. I've been reading the Audyssey thread, since I'm coming from a Yamaha and YPAO, and I just learned about the sub distance tweak and would like to try that.

However, I am running a 4.2 system (fronts and surrounds), and I only read the CC+subs... Can I do the sub distance tweak without a CC?

Thanks in advance.

Yippee-ki-yay...
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Hey guys,

I'm getting a receiver with XT32 and SubEQ tomorrow. I've been reading the Audyssey thread, since I'm coming from a Yamaha and YPAO, and I just learned about the sub distance tweak and would like to try that.

However, I am running a 4.2 system (fronts and surrounds), and I only read the CC+subs... Can I do the sub distance tweak without a CC?

Thanks in advance.
Yes, use the left and right speakers instead. But if you are serious about having a good audio system, you really should get a good center channel speaker.
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post #75259 of 75265 Unread Today, 09:20 AM
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Originally Posted by mthomas47 View Post
Gary,

...In the situation of the OP, with two chairs used fairly equally, I believe that the best compromise for me would be to go to a mid-point between the two chairs and to experience symmetrical and equitable sound quality. And that is just what he does. With three seats, or five, as in your example, I would go to the center seat, just as you have done. And for a single listener/viewer, there is no question where the best seat in the house will be. The point again is that while Audyssey is designed to EQ an area, it is also specifically designed to set distances and levels at the 1st microphone position, and because that is where the soundstage is intended to converge, it will necessarily have some audible acoustic advantages. Seen in that light, the decision as to where to locate the 1st mic. position obviously takes on real importance. All of us will make the choices that best suit our specific circumstances and usage patterns, but we should be clear about the fact that we are making a deliberate choice.

Mike

From Chris K;


"I would recommend starting in the center most position of your listening area and then distributing the measurements around that point."


"The MultEQ algorithms require acoustical information from multiple locations within the listening area in order to create the appropriate room correction filters for each loudspeaker and subwoofer in the system. The first measurement is used to determine the distance and level of each speaker and it should be taken in the center-most position of the listening area."


https://audyssey.zendesk.com/entries...hone-placement-


I have only 2 large LA Z Boy chairs in my system but always set the 1st position between them. Sure, the sound favors one side more but only slightly and the center stays pretty much right on. After recently adding 12, 4 X 2' acoustic panels my sound has never been better.


I'm using a Onkyo 818 with XT32 and don't know what I would do if D&M also decide to drop Audyssey. It's such a valuable tool. Hopefully, Onkyo gets so much backlash for dropping it that we might see them put it back into their higher end products. If not, I'll buy a Denon.
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Originally Posted by Patrick Murphy View Post
From Chris K;


"I would recommend starting in the center most position of your listening area and then distributing the measurements around that point."


"The MultEQ algorithms require acoustical information from multiple locations within the listening area in order to create the appropriate room correction filters for each loudspeaker and subwoofer in the system. The first measurement is used to determine the distance and level of each speaker and it should be taken in the center-most position of the listening area."


https://audyssey.zendesk.com/entries...hone-placement-


I have only 2 large LA Z Boy chairs in my system but always set the 1st position between them. Sure, the sound favors one side more but only slightly and the center stays pretty much right on. After recently adding 12, 4 X 2' acoustic panels my sound has never been better.


I'm using a Onkyo 818 with XT32 and don't know what I would do if D&M also decide to drop Audyssey. It's such a valuable tool. Hopefully, Onkyo gets so much backlash for dropping it that we might see them put it back into their higher end products. If not, I'll buy a Denon.
Chris's explanation is the way I always understood it...

I am still surprised Onkyo dropped Audyssey, but they sell a lot of volume and I'd guess that the majority of buyers do not know enough to care about one room eq vs the other.

If I wasn't getting a Marantz preamp next, or couldn't get Audyssey anymore, Id probably go with MCACC Pro in a Pioneer Elite.

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[QUOTE=Patrick Murphy;33656649]From Chris K;


"I would recommend starting in the center most position of your listening area and then distributing the measurements around that point."


"The MultEQ algorithms require acoustical information from multiple locations within the listening area in order to create the appropriate room correction filters for each loudspeaker and subwoofer in the system. The first measurement is used to determine the distance and level of each speaker and it should be taken in the center-most position of the listening area."


https://audyssey.zendesk.com/entries...hone-placement-


I certainly believe that Chris' advice is good general advice. For instance, for people with multi-row home theaters, most of the comments I have read indicate a preference for making the MLP the center of the middle row of three, which is entirely consistent with Chris' recommendation. But I am trying to draw a distinction between EQing an area, and deciding where you want your soundstage to converge. As I said, given the decision of where to locate the 1st mic. position for two people with a roughly equal interest in sound quality, I would go to the center and favor equality. And, as you have noted, there probably is not generally a lot of drop-off in quality as you move just a foot or two away from that center point anyway. But a lot of people on this thread have expressed an interest in achieving the absolute best sound possible at a single position. And in those instances, I think that understanding the distinction between EQing an area, and being at the precise center of a soundstage, is important.

I guess Onkyo chose to save some money with respect to room correction. It's a real shame in my opinion. I hope it doesn't represent the beginning of an industry-wide shift away from room correction.
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[quote=mthomas47;33657793]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Patrick Murphy View Post
From Chris K;


"I would recommend starting in the center most position of your listening area and then distributing the measurements around that point."


"The MultEQ algorithms require acoustical information from multiple locations within the listening area in order to create the appropriate room correction filters for each loudspeaker and subwoofer in the system. The first measurement is used to determine the distance and level of each speaker and it should be taken in the center-most position of the listening area."


https://audyssey.zendesk.com/entries...hone-placement-


I certainly believe that Chris' advice is good general advice. For instance, for people with multi-row home theaters, most of the comments I have read indicate a preference for making the MLP the center of the middle row of three, which is entirely consistent with Chris' recommendation. But I am trying to draw a distinction between EQing an area, and deciding where you want your soundstage to converge. As I said, given the decision of where to locate the 1st mic. position for two people with a roughly equal interest in sound quality, I would go to the center and favor equality. And, as you have noted, there probably is not generally a lot of drop-off in quality as you move just a foot or two away from that center point anyway. But a lot of people on this thread have expressed an interest in achieving the absolute best sound possible at a single position. And in those instances, I think that understanding the distinction between EQing an area, and being at the precise center of a soundstage, is important.

I guess Onkyo chose to save some money with respect to room correction. It's a real shame in my opinion. I hope it doesn't represent the beginning of an industry-wide shift away from room correction.
I agree, if it was just me, I'd do that. Ive been in one HT that was huge (12 bedroom rental home in Va Beach), I mean it musta been 30 seats. In a room like that, Id just hire a pro lol.

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[quote=mthomas47;33657793]
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Originally Posted by Patrick Murphy View Post
But a lot of people on this thread have expressed an interest in achieving the absolute best sound possible at a single position. And in those instances, I think that understanding the distinction between EQing an area, and being at the precise center of a soundstage, is important.

They also likely run into the theatre to get one of the 10 perfect seats because after that the other 2-3 hundred are going to be compromised.
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[quote=Patrick Murphy;33658249]
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Originally Posted by mthomas47 View Post


They also likely run into the theatre to get one of the 10 perfect seats because after that the other 2-3 hundred are going to be compromised.

I don't know that I would want to run (dignity and all that), but I can definitely remember going to matinees in Imax theaters so that I could sit more in the middle center.
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Question

Does anyone know what crossover slope the different Audyssey AVRs use?

2nd order? 4th order?

No one seems to list it in manuals or spec sheets.
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