"Official" Audyssey thread (FAQ in post #51779) - Page 2512 - AVS | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #75331 of 75350 Old Yesterday, 02:59 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tyrindor View Post
Am I correct in assuming the people that raise their sub +5 DB or more after running Audyssey never watch stuff at reference? It can be desired to get that "punch" at lower volumes, but much more than +3 seems to be insane for anything with a dedicated .1 track at reference volume. Music and .0 sources on the other hand, +5DB isn't so bad and is preferred.

I have 2x PB13 Ultras and I always watch movies at reference. I feel Audyssey guts the bass out anything without a dedicated sub track (music for example), while some movies like Godzilla are insane even at Audyssey's default sub level, we're talking 2 houses down can hear the bass when my HT is in a basement. I couldn't even imagine it with +5 or more on the subs, cops would probably be called thinking there's explosions or something.
Very few people listen at Reference. You are right that our perception of bass increases with loudness, which could be a reason people wind the bass up if they regularly listen at lower levels. HST, Dynamic EQ is meant to restore that perception of reference bass at lower levels. I think the main reason people raise the bass trim after Audyssey though is due to the inherent design of the Audyssey target curve, as discussed above. It is just too flat at the bottom end to please most people.

Also of course, different subs, different rooms, different content, different tastes, all come into where one finally ends up setting the bass trim to achieve personal satisfaction.
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post #75332 of 75350 Old Yesterday, 11:58 AM
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Well i've managed to get it to the point where I can probably tolerate the slight "dullness" that Audyssey causes me on some content. I re-ran Audyssey making sure there was absolutely nothing in the room producing sound, turned off furnace, even took out the clock off the wall. My meter was reading something stupid quiet like 16dB, I don't even think you can get that low without treatment. I then did something i've never done before, covered my leather sofa with a big blanket, as i've seen suggested before. After calibration, I set 80hz crossover, 120hz LFE, and all speakers to Small.

Movies sound great. Music still sounds a bit dull, I ended up turning my subs up 4DB to make it somewhat acceptable to my ears, which is still -3 and -3.5 on the receiver with them set to 75DB pre-calibration. Gotta love dual sub headroom... There's still some dullness in music, mainly rock music, but it's probably just my preference and what i'm use too. I may disable it on that input.
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post #75333 of 75350 Old Yesterday, 12:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tyrindor View Post
Movies sound great. Music still sounds a bit dull, I ended up turning my subs up 4DB to make it somewhat acceptable to my ears, which is still -3 and -3.5 on the receiver with them set to 75DB pre-calibration. Gotta love dual sub headroom... There's still some dullness in music, mainly rock music, but it's probably just my preference and what i'm use too. I may disable it on that input.
Hi Tyrindor, did you try to listen to music with Audyssey Flat curve? And did you make sure you have DynamicEQ on and Dynamic Volume off? BTW, what music are you listening to? Can you name a few titles?
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post #75334 of 75350 Old Yesterday, 12:31 PM
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Originally Posted by mogorf View Post
Hi Tyrindor, did you try to listen to music with Audyssey Flat curve? And did you make sure you have DynamicEQ on and Dynamic Volume off? BTW, what music are you listening to? Can you name a few titles?
My inputs share a lot of different content. On the same input I have a computer, music, games, etc. DynamicEQ does not work well because of it... Games want 15DB or Off, Rock music wants 10DB, Movies want 0DB, TV Shows want 5-10DB (to my ears anyway). I don't feel like switching it everytime I do something different for it to sound correct. I used it for about 3 years before giving up on it. On the computer, going to something like Youtube with DynamicEQ is awful. Each video is mastered differently and there's no way to get it to sound right.

I'm listening to just a random rock playlist of about 5,000 songs, mostly mainstream stuff. They are all lossless FLAC rips. I'll listen to a random couple songs I know, then listen to them again with it off. I have not tried Flat, I'll mess with it more later tonight. I also have a custom EQ for my music, so it's possible I need to tweak it. I have tried turning my custom music EQ in Foobar2000, but music with a flat EQ honestly sounds awful to me. I use a standard rock EQ, trim the highs slightly (horn speakers), and slightly reduce how much it cuts out in the mid.

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post #75335 of 75350 Old Yesterday, 01:15 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tyrindor View Post

I'm listening to just a random rock playlist of about 5,000 songs, mostly mainstream stuff. They are all lossless FLAC rips. I'll listen to a random couple songs I know, then listen to them again with it off. I have not tried Flat, I'll mess with it more later tonight. I also have a custom EQ for my music, so it's possible I need to tweak it. I have tried turning my custom music EQ in Foobar2000, but music with a flat EQ honestly sounds awful to me. I use a standard rock EQ, trim the highs slightly (horn speakers), and slightly reduce how much it cuts out in the mid.
Hey, I also use Foobar2000 for music rips hooked up to the Denon via HDMI. One thing I experienced is that the playback level of different kinds of music recordings is practically all over the map. Therefore, I use the feature of Foobar called ReplayGain. With this I always make sure the output level of each and every song is (nearly the same). Unless otherwise, different playback levels will surely throw off DEQ.

So, in order to see what you are doing with ReplayGain you need to download a free plug-in for Foobar2000 called Peakmeter Spectrum.

Your Foobar2000 with Peakmeter Spectrum on the left side should look like this:



Give it a try, please. And report back your findings.

Last edited by mogorf; Yesterday at 01:21 PM.
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post #75336 of 75350 Old Yesterday, 01:51 PM
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Something I didn't realize.... Audyssey recommends not adjusting crossover frequencies on XT32 because it's satellite resolution is the same as the sub resolution. For me that puts my front RF-7s at 40hz, center RC-64 at 40hz, side RS-62s at 60hz, back RS-62s at 40hz. These are some pretty high end speakers with multiple 6 1/2 and 10 inch cones. I'm fairly certain the RF-7s can handle 40hz without issue. The RC-64 is sealed with 4 6 1/2 inch cones, so 40hz seems a little low to me. Same with the RS-62 in the back with *only* 2 6 1/2 inch cones.

What do you think? Leave them as-is, or keep RF-7s at 40hz and set the rest to 60hz? Having the RF-7s go down to 40hz seems to give music a bit more depth at lower volumes.

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Hey, I also use Foobar2000 for music rips hooked up to the Denon via HDMI. One thing I experienced is that the playback level of different kinds of music recordings is practically all over the map. Therefore, I use the feature of Foobar called ReplayGain. With this I always make sure the output level of each and every song is (nearly the same). Unless otherwise, different playback levels will surely throw off DEQ.

So, in order to see what you are doing with ReplayGain you need to download a free plug-in for Foobar2000 called Peakmeter Spectrum.

Your Foobar2000 with Peakmeter Spectrum on the left side should look like this:



Give it a try, please. And report back your findings.
Haha! We are the same, Denon receiver via HDMI and I also use ReplayGain for everything (I turn it up +5DB on the pre-amp afterwards, with apply gain and prevent clipping enabled) otherwise I feel it's a bit too quiet.. I don't use that plug-in though.

DEQ with 10db offset sounds great at low volumes, but sadly if I go into a game then my rears are incredibly louder and Youtube videos are all over the place. I find the same when going from a movie (0DB recommended) to a TV show (10db recommended). It's sad DEQ can't detect what offset it needs, it's way better if you want to take the time to adjust it every time you do something, but it's a tedious process.

I am currently using this rock EQ (unmodified) for testing, I also have one I made myself but I think I prefer this one. It sounds awful to my ears with no EQ. http://alexander-gg.deviantart.com/a...Rock-104365845

Last edited by Tyrindor; Yesterday at 02:06 PM.
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post #75337 of 75350 Old Yesterday, 02:27 PM
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Originally Posted by Tyrindor View Post
...My Klipsch RF-7s are kind of the opposite. They have way too much treble out of the box due to their massive horn. I sit pretty close to them too, about 8-9 feet. Audyssey does a good job trimming those highs... .
I too have RF-7s in a 9.2 config and sit close to them while watching movies at/near Reference level in a 2000 cu ft room.

I also use the Audyssey curve after experimentation along with Dolby PLIIz for everything including Multichannel Music which I listen to material between -12 to -18 on the MV.
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post #75338 of 75350 Old Yesterday, 03:18 PM
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Does anyone know how mic placement effects clarity, soundstage etc? I know that on a previous calibration (which didn't save properly) my midrange had layers of veils removed from what I currently have.

Denon 4520ci, (3) JBL 2360As/EV DHA-1s, (3) 1/4 Pie bass bins, (3) MiniDSP 2x4s, (4) Klipsch HIPs,  PS3, XBox 360, (3) Intel NUCs, Redmere, Monster HTPS7000, 2 DTS-10 subs, Panasonic AE8000, SeymourAV 180 (195" diagonal) scope screen, Darbee Darcet, Yamaha P7000s, (2) Yamaha P2500s, & (3) Topping 25wpch T chip amps.
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post #75339 of 75350 Old Yesterday, 03:21 PM
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[QUOTE=Tyrindor;33748785]Something I didn't realize.... Audyssey recommends not adjusting crossover frequencies on XT32 because it's satellite resolution is the same as the sub resolution. For me that puts my front RF-7s at 40hz, center RC-64 at 40hz, side RS-62s at 60hz, back RS-62s at 40hz. These are some pretty high end speakers with multiple 6 1/2 and 10 inch cones. I'm fairly certain the RF-7s can handle 40hz without issue. The RC-64 is sealed with 4 6 1/2 inch cones, so 40hz seems a little low to me. Same with the RS-62 in the back with *only* 2 6 1/2 inch cones.

"What do you think? Leave them as-is, or keep RF-7s at 40hz and set the rest to 60hz? Having the RF-7s go down to 40hz seems to give music a bit more depth at lower volumes."



This is what I was thinking the other day: try setting your crossovers lower and then experiment with the bass tone control, as well. In my opinion, no one can really accurately predict what you will like best. But if you are willing to experiment, there are a lot of variables under your control to take advantage of Audyssey's room correction and still tailor the sound to your specific tastes. I remember that you felt that you weren't getting enough bass before with your crossovers at 80, so I don't see anything wrong with leaving them at their detected F3 point and listening for a while. I can't speak for anyone else, but what works well for me is to listen critically while making small adjustments. Over time, I discover the settings that I like best, and then I will still occasionally tweak something for a particular type of music. I start from the premise that room correction will be a positive thing with respect to reducing distortion, and then I just take my time to find the particular combination of settings which work best for my system in my room.

I am not really kidding when I say this, but the most liberating discovery for me was that there was no single right answer or setting, and that it was okay to experiment as much as I wanted to in order to increase my perceived sound quality. You are really the only judge of what you like. (And that can be a plural you if someone listens with you a lot.)
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post #75340 of 75350 Old Yesterday, 03:37 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ellisr63 View Post
Does anyone know how mic placement effects clarity, soundstage etc? I know that on a previous calibration (which didn't save properly) my midrange had layers of veils removed from what I currently have.

Beautiful home theater and Koi pond!

I definitely believe that mic. placement can affect both clarity and soundstage, but there are too many variables to know how to answer your question. Do you know how close your current mic. positions are to your previous good calibration? Some people go to great lengths to be able to exactly repeat calibrations. I keep a to-scale diagram with measurements for my 1st. position, and for the subsequent 7, so that I can repeat my preferred calibration pretty closely. If you can't remember exactly what you did last time, you may have to try several (keeping a record) until you hit on the combination of mic. placements that finally gets you there. I assume that you are following the standard recommendations in the Set-up Guide pretty closely?
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post #75341 of 75350 Old Yesterday, 04:27 PM
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Originally Posted by mthomas47 View Post
Beautiful home theater and Koi pond!

I definitely believe that mic. placement can affect both clarity and soundstage, but there are too many variables to know how to answer your question. Do you know how close your current mic. positions are to your previous good calibration? Some people go to great lengths to be able to exactly repeat calibrations. I keep a to-scale diagram with measurements for my 1st. position, and for the subsequent 7, so that I can repeat my preferred calibration pretty closely. If you can't remember exactly what you did last time, you may have to try several (keeping a record) until you hit on the combination of mic. placements that finally gets you there. I assume that you are following the standard recommendations in the Set-up Guide pretty closely?
Thanks, we enjoy the pond and HT daily.

I thought I had a diagram showing my settings, but I can't find it. I think I was doing around 1' spacing with 2 rows of mic placement in our first row. I was following the mic placements per the recommendations, but there are so many of them I am not sure which one I ended up with. I do know that we were doing it above ear height as our couch back is higher than ear level, but I don't know how much higher I went either. The calibration is close but I just want that last bit of clarity that made it so lifelike that we had before.

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post #75342 of 75350 Old Yesterday, 04:47 PM
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Thanks, we enjoy the pond and HT daily.

I thought I had a diagram showing my settings, but I can't find it. I think I was doing around 1' spacing with 2 rows of mic placement in our first row. I was following the mic placements per the recommendations, but there are so many of them I am not sure which one I ended up with. I do know that we were doing it above ear height as our couch back is higher than ear level, but I don't know how much higher I went either. The calibration is close but I just want that last bit of clarity that made it so lifelike that we had before.

If I have a long time between calibrations, I find myself looking hard for my diagram. So far, so good.

I'm just guessing here, but I would expect clarity to be largely a product of your front speakers and your center. So, I probably wouldn't try to get the mic. very high above ear level. You would have to balance the clarity issue with whether you lose a little bit of treble quality from the rear speakers, but I'm speculating that you may have your mic. placements a little too high. A lot of people try to get 5 or 6 fairly close to ear level, and then use just 2"-3" higher for the rest. That might be worth a try.
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post #75343 of 75350 Old Yesterday, 07:25 PM
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I haven't posted much here in a while but as usual I continue to tinker. My latest change is setting the lfe lpf to 80hz from 120hz as had been discussed here a few times. It worked wonders for me when using Dynamic EQ. Bass isn't nearly as bloated. I still don't use Dynamic EQ much but the lpf setting is staying at 80hz for now. Cleans up the bloat.
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post #75344 of 75350 Old Yesterday, 08:52 PM
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Originally Posted by mthomas47 View Post
If I have a long time between calibrations, I find myself looking hard for my diagram. So far, so good.

I'm just guessing here, but I would expect clarity to be largely a product of your front speakers and your center. So, I probably wouldn't try to get the mic. very high above ear level. You would have to balance the clarity issue with whether you lose a little bit of treble quality from the rear speakers, but I'm speculating that you may have your mic. placements a little too high. A lot of people try to get 5 or 6 fairly close to ear level, and then use just 2"-3" higher for the rest. That might be worth a try.
I decided to give it one more try on loading my old config (which looked like it might be bad with a Hex Editor), and it loaded. I then checked the settings, and they were different than I currently had (sounds good)... Fired up some test tracks, and my test movie (Pitch Perfect)...It sounds like the magic is back again! I will do further listening this weekend but it looks like I am in business again.

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post #75345 of 75350 Old Today, 04:57 AM
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I haven't posted much here in a while but as usual I continue to tinker. My latest change is setting the lfe lpf to 80hz from 120hz as had been discussed here a few times. It worked wonders for me when using Dynamic EQ. Bass isn't nearly as bloated. I still don't use Dynamic EQ much but the lpf setting is staying at 80hz for now. Cleans up the bloat.

I agree. I tried the 80 setting after seeing it endorsed by Roger Dressler and it made the bass tighter with less low end rumble.
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post #75346 of 75350 Old Today, 05:25 AM
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Originally Posted by ellisr63 View Post
I decided to give it one more try on loading my old config (which looked like it might be bad with a Hex Editor), and it loaded. I then checked the settings, and they were different than I currently had (sounds good)... Fired up some test tracks, and my test movie (Pitch Perfect)...It sounds like the magic is back again! I will do further listening this weekend but it looks like I am in business again.

That's really good news! Trial and error can be pretty time consuming.
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post #75347 of 75350 Old Today, 07:51 AM
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Problem:

New AV7702, new and larger efficient Klipsch towers, new amp and same Klipsch center. Previous XT32 runs would set my mains around -4db, sub around -9 and the center around -9.

This new run with Xt32 on the Marantz is coming out -9 on the fronts, -12 on the center, and -9 on the subs (set them to 75db with Marantz menu). At the advice of Audyssey staff, i checked the spl with my checkmate meter, and found the fronts to be perfect with each other and the center to only be 0.5db higher, roughly. Issue is this problem may get worse when I get the larger center to match these fronts.

Their advice, with no gain settings, is to get say a 6db attenuator like this:

http://www.parts-express.com/harriso...-pair--266-242

Any other ideas? Never had this issue before...

Trying the XLR connection is another suggestion. Gain on the RCA's is 28db for the amp and 34db for the XLR, but I figure that is "worse".

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post #75348 of 75350 Old Today, 08:10 AM
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Originally Posted by gadgtfreek View Post
Problem:

New AV7702, new and larger efficient Klipsch towers, new amp and same Klipsch center. Previous XT32 runs would set my mains around -4db, sub around -9 and the center around -9.

This new run with Xt32 on the Marantz is coming out -9 on the fronts, -12 on the center, and -9 on the subs (set them to 75db with Marantz menu). At the advice of Audyssey staff, i checked the spl with my checkmate meter, and found the fronts to be perfect with each other and the center to only be 0.5db higher, roughly. Issue is this problem may get worse when I get the larger center to match these fronts.

Their advice, with no gain settings, is to get say a 6db attenuator like this:

http://www.parts-express.com/harriso...-pair--266-242

Any other ideas? Never had this issue before...

Trying the XLR connection is another suggestion. Gain on the RCA's is 28db for the amp and 34db for the XLR, but I figure that is "worse".
Indeed, XLR connections will make your situation worse, probably requiring attenuators for all of the channels instead of just one.

Your description indicates that you really only need a single attenuator, since the center channel is the only one pegged at -12dB. They're readily available individually. You don't have to buy a pair.

You might want to consider using it with an "extension" cable, since having an attenuator connected directly to the amp or pre-pro makes it vulnerable to being bumped and ripping out the back panel connector.
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post #75349 of 75350 Old Today, 08:14 AM
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Originally Posted by Selden Ball View Post
Indeed, XLR connections will make your situation worse, probably requiring attenuators for all of the channels instead of just one.

Your description indicates that you really only need a single attenuator, since the center channel is the only one pegged at -12dB. They're readily available individually. You don't have to buy a pair.

You might want to consider using it with an "extension" cable, since having an attenuator connected directly to the amp or pre-pro makes it vulnerable to being bumped and ripping out the back panel connector.
Thanks. Attenuate I will. I just linked that pair, but I do like the Harrison's, they seem well made and are USA made too.

I assume there is not difference whether the attenuator is on the preamp or the amp side of the cable?

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post #75350 of 75350 Old Today, 10:27 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Selden Ball View Post
Indeed, XLR connections will make your situation worse, probably requiring attenuators for all of the channels instead of just one.

Your description indicates that you really only need a single attenuator, since the center channel is the only one pegged at -12dB. They're readily available individually. You don't have to buy a pair.

You might want to consider using it with an "extension" cable, since having an attenuator connected directly to the amp or pre-pro makes it vulnerable to being bumped and ripping out the back panel connector.
If I decided to try XLR's for connection stability, what do you think about this?

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00...ZDAQBZ015A5ZD7


Edit: Nevermind, found a good thread here from awhile back and these XLR attenuators were highly spoken of. Guy with my situation (change caused speakers to bottom out in adjustment) needed them.

Panasonic 65" VT50 / Oppo 103D
Marantz AV7702 / Outlaw Model 7500
Klipsch RF7II (2) and RC62II / Hsu VTF-15H (2)
Panamax MR5100

Last edited by gadgtfreek; Today at 10:34 AM.
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Audyssey , Receivers Amplifiers , Kef Kht1005 2se 5 1 Subwoofer Satellite System With C4 Subwoofer Gloss White , 5 6 7 1 7 2 Or 8 1 8 2 One Or Two Subwoofer Compatible 16 Banana Post 2 Rca Speaker Wall Plate For H
Gear in this thread - Kht1005 by PriceGrabber.com



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