"Official" Audyssey thread (FAQ in post #51779) - Page 2513 - AVS | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #75361 of 75375 Old Yesterday, 03:04 PM
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Question for those of you with a minidsp:

Do you tame peaks with minidsp before or after you run Audyssey?
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post #75362 of 75375 Old Yesterday, 03:26 PM
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Originally Posted by DaveyMac View Post
Question for those of you with a minidsp:

Do you tame peaks with minidsp before or after you run Audyssey?
Better to ask in the minidsp threads. Real Audyssey users don't use mixed room correction systems coz there can be phase vs. frequency issues affecting SQ. But ,...pssst,...don't tell 'em!
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post #75363 of 75375 Old Yesterday, 04:34 PM
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Originally Posted by mogorf View Post
Better to ask in the minidsp threads. Real Audyssey users don't use mixed room correction systems coz there can be phase vs. frequency issues affecting SQ. But ,...pssst,...don't tell 'em!
I asked in minidsp thread but was told to ask here, lol.

I'm fairly certain many minidsp users also use Audyssey? If nothing else you can use minidsp to add a house curve or more mid-bass.

I'll rephrase my question though - are there any fake Audyssey users like me who use a minidsp also? If so, do you tame peaks with minidsp before or after Audyssey?
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post #75364 of 75375 Old Yesterday, 04:45 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DaveyMac View Post
Question for those of you with a minidsp:

Do you tame peaks with minidsp before or after you run Audyssey?
Use MiniDSP first, and then run Audyssey. Audyssey results are generally better if there is less to correct. For this reason, the advice is to add room treatments, find the best location for subs, etc. before running Audyssey.

I have a MiniDSP 2x4 and room correction. This is the order that I do things, with good results.
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post #75365 of 75375 Old Yesterday, 04:50 PM
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Originally Posted by DaveyMac View Post
I asked in minidsp thread but was told to ask here, lol.
LOL.

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I'm fairly certain many minidsp users also use Audyssey?
Me, too!


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If nothing else you can use minidsp to add a house curve or more mid-bass.
And then you add phase distortion to your system!!

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I'll rephrase my question though - are there any fake Audyssey users like me who use a minidsp also? If so, do you tame peaks with minidsp before or after Audyssey?
There are many fake Audyssey users who don't u'stand phase distortion. They just look at frequency curves and get happy with what they get. Flat or a "house curve", whatever pleases them.

They are nice people, but lack the technical background. Still they are happy. Let it be!
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post #75366 of 75375 Old Yesterday, 05:38 PM
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Originally Posted by mogorf View Post
LOL.

And then you add phase distortion to your system ...Audyssey users who don't u'stand phase distortion. They'd just look at frequency curves and get happy with what they get.
I'm pretty novice but I think you are saying eq'ing after Audyssey can make the graphs look better, but can potentially make things sound worse?

I have kind of felt lie things sound off after messing with eq after Audyssey. I'm glad you pointed this out, I think I'll try to stick to taming peaks pre Audyssey as the other gentleman suggested.

Although no matter where I put the subs I get a five DB or so dip in a few spots. I had been fixing them with eq. I guess I'll resist the urge. Now I have something else to be paranoid about.
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post #75367 of 75375 Old Yesterday, 05:42 PM
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Originally Posted by gadgtfreek View Post
XLR Attenuator + Audyssey question:

When trying to buy a XLR attenuator, that's say 10dB, will it roughly bring the level setting down in audyssey 10dB (say if speaker was -10, once attenuator is added it will be close to 0), or is it not that exact?
I was told by my dealer & tech that attenuators provide approximately the labeled amount of attenuation. Isn't it true that whatever the amount of real attenuation, Audyssey will measure that, and set the trim appropriately, providing that there is enough attenuation to produce a trim setting less extreme than -12?
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post #75368 of 75375 Old Yesterday, 06:04 PM
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Originally Posted by gadgtfreek View Post
Found some useful info from Chris K, with an easy solution. Of course I will try both XLRs and XLRs+attenuators next week with Audyssey, but if you have one or more speakers that is at -12 you just adjust the others to it and reduced master volume that you use.

If speaker A is 79db's at -12, go in and adjust others to 79db's, and then just remember you reference volume is now not 0.0, but -4.0.
I'm still confused. If Audyssey has set Speaker A to -12, is it possible that Audyssey would have "liked" to set it at -13 or -14 or -15, etc, but stopped at -12 because -12 is the limit of the range ... right or wrong?

I would be more comfortable if no speaker's trim was at -12. At more moderate settings (e.g., -10, -5) I would be more confident that Audyssey set the trim correctly.

Did Chris really use -12 as an example? If he was using some other Audyssey assigned trim setting -- less extreme than -12 -- it would make more sense to me. But, as I said, I'm still confused.
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post #75369 of 75375 Old Yesterday, 06:55 PM
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Originally Posted by garygarrison View Post
I'm still confused. If Audyssey has set Speaker A to -12, is it possible that Audyssey would have "liked" to set it at -13 or -14 or -15, etc, but stopped at -12 because -12 is the limit of the range ... right or wrong?

I would be more comfortable if no speaker's trim was at -12. At more moderate settings (e.g., -10, -5) I would be more confident that Audyssey set the trim correctly.

Did Chris really use -12 as an example? If he was using some other Audyssey assigned trim setting -- less extreme than -12 -- it would make more sense to me. But, as I said, I'm still confused.
If you have speakers going -12, you can attenuate with an RCA or XLR connector or check their SPL and level match. In my case, my center is currently -12, but luckily it tests only about 1/2 to 1 db higher than fronts (close to 76 when they are 75). So you run Audyssey and you fronts are -10, and the center is -12. After you finish, you go into the level section, turn the volume up to reference (0.0), and test the center. say the center is 80 (basically it needed an adjustment of -17 but -12 is max), and then you go to the fronts and you want to level match them with the center.

You'd bump the fronts up from the 75db that Audyssey set, to 80, which would most likely be you adjusting them from -10 to -5. At that point all speakers are level at 80db, and it now means your reference volume setting is not 0.0 anymore, its probably -5.0 because you are 5db's hot now.

I guess if you wanted to feel more comfortable and not have the center at -12, you could bump it to -10, which would then be 82 for the sake of this conversation, and you would have to give the other speakes a 7db boost in audyssey. Chris K did not seem concerned at all about one being -12, you just have to use an SPL meter to determine what it is actually putting out, and match the other speakers to it.

It's a simple solution that I never thought of until reading his answers to people. They key is not that all the speakers have to be 75db, it's that if you deviate from that you have to realize that 0.0 is not a reference volume setting anymore and adjust accordingly. And if one speakers is high, you want them all to match the level of the highest speaker because you can always adjust up from a negative, but once it is at -12, nothing more you can do for that speaker. Unless you opt for the 10db, etc... attenuators.
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post #75370 of 75375 Old Yesterday, 08:10 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by garygarrison View Post
I'm still confused. If Audyssey has set Speaker A to -12, is it possible that Audyssey would have "liked" to set it at -13 or -14 or -15, etc, but stopped at -12 because -12 is the limit of the range ... right or wrong?

I would be more comfortable if no speaker's trim was at -12. At more moderate settings (e.g., -10, -5) I would be more confident that Audyssey set the trim correctly.

Did Chris really use -12 as an example? If he was using some other Audyssey assigned trim setting -- less extreme than -12 -- it would make more sense to me. But, as I said, I'm still confused.
Yes... If Audyssey wanted to set the speaker at -14 (arbitrary), and it has a limit of 12db, it would set it to -12. So when ever you have a -12 with Audyssey you need to back it down prior to Audyssey so Audyssey can properly adjust it within the 12db range.

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post #75371 of 75375 Old Yesterday, 08:22 PM
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Originally Posted by Tyrindor View Post
....
.1 tracks sound fine, but music sounds lacking. The extremely deep bass is gone, even if I crank subs up to +10. It seems to cut it completely off. There's also some mid range bass that I can't seem to get back without making it sound boomy or overly bassy in other areas.
...
.
I suffered the same for 2+ years . I could not enjoy music with Audessy On.

I almost gave up on it, until I tried something that could be considered a heresy among Audessy fans - I manually adjusted the distances of the subs until I thought I perceived improvements. The sound of the precise moment when kickdrums are struck reappeared in the music. I imagine that this might be what you have described as "some mid range bass" that was missing. Extremely deep bass from the likes church organ type vibes also came to life.
I verified with LF tone bursts that the results were indeed better with the adjusted sub distances. I can now enjoy music with Audessy On regardless of the sub trims I try to make. I tried the sub trims up and down by up to +-5db but I no longer perceive bloat nor thinness so now I leave them at the level that Audessy set them.

I wish I do not get flamed for sharing my "heretical" but successful experiment.

If the results of this experiment in my set up could be replicated elsewhere then perhaps it points to a minor arithmetic bug in Audessy's algorithms.
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post #75372 of 75375 Old Yesterday, 09:13 PM
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Originally Posted by AustinJerry View Post
Doognam, you are not going to get flamed by suggesting that adjusting the sub distances may improve bass response. However, you will get flamed by not doing your homework and realizing that there is a very well-written "Sub Distance Tweak" procedure that is part of the extensive Audyssey documentation in this thread. You will find a link to the procedure in KBarnes701's signature. Adjusting sub distances is an accepted procedure that yields positive results for many Audyssey users.

So, perhaps it would be worth your while if you are going to continue using Audyssey to read up on the tips and documentation that I am sure will result in even further improvements in your system. Try the Audyssey FAQ for starters.

Not doing homework - suggest reading up on tips and documentation... sure will result in further improvements of my system.
Oh dear! What a mess to have fanatics around instead of scientists - I'll just enjoy my discovery and be happy that I am not a fanatic - instead of sharing that there is hope - that there even are written instructions as to how to adjust for Audessy's inaccurate calculations.
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Last edited by doognam; Yesterday at 09:45 PM. Reason: fix awful aftertaste
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post #75373 of 75375 Old Yesterday, 10:00 PM
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No one should be flamed here, period.
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post #75374 of 75375 Old Yesterday, 11:29 PM
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Originally Posted by gadgtfreek View Post

I guess if you wanted to feel more comfortable and not have the center at -12, you could bump it to -10, which would then be 82 for the sake of this conversation, and you would have to give the other speakes a 7db boost in audyssey. Chris K did not seem concerned at all about one being -12, you just have to use an SPL meter to determine what it is actually putting out, and match the other speakers to it.
Thanks. I may get the procedure now. In the above quoted passage, are you saying that, if you wanted to avoid an Audyssey determined trim set of -12 for the center, you would first use a SPL meter to set all speakers to the same level -- 82 dB -- then run Audyssey, and then leave the trim settings wherever Audyssey set them? Earlier in this thread a few people pointed out that to level match with a SPL meter after running Audyssey, you should use a test disk or some source other than the test noise in the preamp/processor or AVR, because (I guess in most or all cases) the built in test noise bypasses Audyssey and therefore does not determine what the speakers are actually putting out after FQ response correction. Other posters said that on their particular sound systems it did not make a big difference. But it might depend on how similar the speakers are. I'm a little OCD, so I would be concerned about it.

I'm still puzzled about why a center speaker that Klipsch says is less efficient than the RF 7iis was read as more efficient by Audyssey.

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post #75375 of 75375 Old Today, 05:41 AM
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Originally Posted by garygarrison View Post
Thanks. I may get the procedure now. In the above quoted passage, are you saying that, if you wanted to avoid an Audyssey determined trim set of -12 for the center, you would first use a SPL meter to set all speakers to the same level -- 82 dB -- then run Audyssey, and then leave the trim settings wherever Audyssey set them? Earlier in this thread a few people pointed out that to level match with a SPL meter after running Audyssey, you should use a test disk or some source other than the test noise in the preamp/processor or AVR, because (I guess in most or all cases) the built in test noise bypasses Audyssey and therefore does not determine what the speakers are actually putting out after FQ response correction. Other posters said that on their particular sound systems it did not make a big difference. But it might depend on how similar the speakers are. I'm a little OCD, so I would be concerned about it.

I'm still puzzled about why a center speaker that Klipsch says is less efficient than the RF 7iis was read as more efficient by Audyssey.
No, this is after Audyssey. If any of your speakers run out of adjustment, as an option, you can adjust trim levels with an SPL meter AFTER audyssey. Chris K said to you use test tones in the AVR menu, and every speaker should report 75db (my two fronts did). So once you find the speakers that are above that (my center), you adjust those others to that level. Since Reference volume is 75db, if you make all the speakers match at 80db, you new reference volume on the AVR/preamp is probably -5.0 or so.

Quote:
Speaker Trim Levels
Chris Kyriakakis September 29, 2012
Trim levels are just relative numbers. There is nothing wrong (or different) about negative trims. The point of calibrating levels is to (1) achieve the same level for every speaker and (2) play at film reference when the master volume is at 0.

If the speakers have high sensitivity, or are close to the listening position (or both) then the trim levels will show up negative to achieve the goals mentioned above. It's not a good idea to change the trims because that will throw off the Dynamic EQ calibration. If you want the system to play louder just turn up the master volume.

SPL meters need calibration so it's possible that there is enough discrepancy between the meter and the Audyssey mic to show different readings. Also, the internal test noise of the AVR is a slightly different way of calculating level than what Audyssey does using psychoacoustic weighting of the measured response.

In any case, it's not a huge deal to change the trims if you feel the need to (keeping in mind the implications on Dynamic EQ). The most important part of Audyssey--the filters--are not affected by trim levels.

Dave: On another audio forum, a lot of folks have mentioned that they believe in cases where Audssey sets the trim level all the way down(-12 db on my AVR and a lot of others) Audyssey loses some effectiveness, though no one is very specific on why that is or what form it takes. This is in a thread for very high efficiency speakers and this trim level is often reached with amps with a high gain. Some people have reported improvement with, and recommended the use of, line attenuators to get the trim boosted. This was noted both for speaker and sub channels. Can you comment on this?


Chris: Hi Dave,

The most important part of Audyssey are the correction filters. These are completely unaffected by the speaker level settings. They don't even look at them... gotta love the internet though :-)

The –12 dB limit is in the hardware. If you hit it then you may not be setting the speaker levels to be the same as is required for level calibration. This happens if the speakers have high efficiency or if they are very close. Attenuators can definitely help reduce the level so the AVR has enough range to make level adjustments.

Some more from Chris:

Hi Jeff,

You can easily adjust the speaker levels in the Setup Menu. You don't have to turn Audyssey off to do that. The menu is shown on p. 95 of the manual.

Hello Chris,

If the trim levels are at -12db and you do a 6 position calibration and save the data; if you go back in and match the SPL levels with the side surrounds will this affect the filter calibrations during the initial calibration?

Changing the speaker levels has no effect on the filters.

And some more

Quote:
I tried to measure with a spl but cannot get them to lower down enough i hit -12db on the onkyo 706 and get stuck at 79 db

Chris: Hi Alain,

This is not an Audyssey problem. The purpose of reference calibration is to bring each speaker to the proper SPL level and to match it to the other speakers. For film content the required reference calibration is 75 dB when measured using the internal test noise in your receiver. This can be set manually or automatically, but only if the AVR gives you enough range. If the required level cut is more than 12 dB then you won't be able to achieve reference volume. This can happen if your speakers are close to the listening position and/or they have high sensitivity.

The solution is simple: you can use an SPL meter to make sure that the levels of the speakers are the same. If they are not, then make adjustments to make them the same. After that, turn down the master volume (not the trims) until the measured noise is 75 dB on the SPL meter (C-weighted, Slow). Write down that master volume because it is now your new reference listening setting (instead of the 0 dB setting normally used).
Some AVR's/Preamps, when you are in the level adjustment, put out a flat 75db noise that cannot be adjusted. On mine, when you go into that menu you can turn volume to where ever you need it. In my situation, I would set volume to 0.0, set all speakers to match the louder center, and then slowly crank down volume until all speakers read 75db with the new level settings. That would be my new reference volume for movie watching, etc... (-5.0, -4.0, -6.5, whatever).

As far as what my center is doing and why it is doing it, I have no idea. It is the one thing that hasn't been changed, and I had run XT32 with the 4520 a week before getting the amp, towers and preamp.

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