"Official" Audyssey thread (FAQ in post #51779) - Page 2524 - AVS | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #75691 of 75714 Old Yesterday, 01:15 PM
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[QUOTE=mogorf;34396354]Again, as you also stated, Chris K. recommended to leave the c/o as set purely on the basis of equally high filter resolutions achived by XT32. This is good of course, very good!

What we need to do from now on is the good placement of the sub(s), a subwoofer crawl comes to mind that will result in deep, smooth and even bass when done properly.

Meantime, leaving the crossover at or close to the speakers' measured -3 dB point and thinking it would give the best blend in the crossover region is kinda "wishful thining". Even Audyssey never said that, nor did they guarantee that.

Saying that "it is easier to hide the location of the subwoofer with a lower crossover" is something I'm not quite sure I understand. Care to expand on this? Thx. [/QUOTE

What i meant was it is easier to place the subwoofer anywhere in the room and not be able to pinpoint the location with a lower crossover. We just had a conversation about being able to localize deep male voices with an 80hz crossover a few post above.I think that is also a reason Chris recommends not raising the crossover. I don't think his recommendation was based purely on the higher filters of XT 32. I did not take that from what he said. I wish he still posted on this thread so we could ask him his thoughts.

Audyssey never said anything about the blend in the crossover region and I don't think i implied that they did. That was my personal thought. I am under the impression that the ideal point to place a crossover would be at a speakers -3 db point. Chris did say that Audyssey pro would recommend the best crossover point. I think this makes it clear that he does not think 80hz or higher is always the best crossover.

I understand the reasoning for using a higher crossover. I don't think it is necessarily the best choice. I think you have to compromise somewhat no matter where you decide to crossover.

Last edited by tbaucom; Yesterday at 01:16 PM. Reason: correct grammar
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post #75692 of 75714 Old Yesterday, 01:24 PM
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Originally Posted by mogorf View Post
Here are pre-out graphs of my Center channel set to Large:

1. Audyssey off:



2. Audyssey On:



AVR: Denon 2310
Center: Dali Concept Center

To me these graphs suggest that a) there is no tapering-off of the MultEQ correction curve despite the fact that the Center c/o was set to 80 Hz and b) the real-life (natural) tapering-off will be done by the speaker itself.
Bump! batpig? Mike?
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post #75693 of 75714 Old Yesterday, 01:42 PM
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Hey guys, just a quick Q

Will increasing the "digital input" DB level in the "source level" part of my receiver distort the sound at a louder level. What exactly is this increasing that is different than just increasing the level of each speaker. Increasing the digital input by 3db seems to be a lot louder of an increase than increasing my master volume by 3db. Thanks!
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post #75694 of 75714 Old Yesterday, 01:51 PM
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Originally Posted by Federo5 View Post
Hey guys, just a quick Q

Will increasing the "digital input" DB level in the "source level" part of my receiver distort the sound at a louder level.
Nope, basically it shouldn't. But it all depends on the capabilities of your speakers, not to mention you sub(s). By doing that you are departing from reference level set by Audyssey. Best is to leave it a 0 dB.

Quote:
What exactly is this increasing that is different than just increasing the level of each speaker.
No difference as long as you increase the level of all your speaker by the same amount.

Quote:
Increasing the digital input by 3db seems to be a lot louder of an increase than increasing my master volume by 3db. Thanks!
Placebo comes to mind! Did you do a careful blind test?
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post #75695 of 75714 Old Yesterday, 01:54 PM
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Originally Posted by mogorf View Post
Nope, basically it shouldn't. But it all depends on the capabilities of your speakers, not to mention you sub(s). By doing that you are departing from reference level set by Audyssey. Best is to leave it a 0 dB.

No difference as long as you increase the level of all your speaker by the same amount.

Placebo comes to mind! Did you do a careful blind test?
So by increasing the digital input level this will shut off audyseey even if I have the dynamic EQ ON?
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post #75696 of 75714 Old Yesterday, 01:58 PM
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Originally Posted by Federo5 View Post
So by increasing the digital input level this will shut off audyseey even if I have the dynamic EQ ON?
How did you get to that conclusion Federo?

BTW, its Audyssey, not audyseey!! Chris, while he was here used to charge $1 for every misspell!!
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post #75697 of 75714 Old Yesterday, 02:49 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Federo5 View Post
Hey guys, just a quick Q

Will increasing the "digital input" DB level in the "source level" part of my receiver distort the sound at a louder level. What exactly is this increasing that is different than just increasing the level of each speaker. Increasing the digital input by 3db seems to be a lot louder of an increase than increasing my master volume by 3db. Thanks!

If I understand your question correctly, the choice is between increasing the level of every speaker individually, versus increasing the MV by the same amount. I think that increasing each speaker individually by 3db would give you a different sum at your MLP than you would get from simply increasing the MV by 3db. I don't remember if there is a specific formula for this, or just a rule of thumb, so I can't tell you what the decibel difference would be, but I believe that increasing all speaker levels would be a little louder than just increasing the MV by that same amount.

As Feri was saying, increasing your individual levels won't disable DEQ, but it will change your reference point, if you are concerned about trying to more precisely preserve the original intent of the movie soundtrack with DEQ.

Last edited by mthomas47; Yesterday at 03:03 PM.
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post #75698 of 75714 Old Yesterday, 03:02 PM
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Originally Posted by mogorf View Post
Bump! batpig? Mike?

Feri,

If I am interpreting your graph correctly, the filters remain even if there is nothing for them to filter. Is that your interpretation, that the crossover selected really doesn't influence the application of the filters, just the actual capability of the speaker?

Mike
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post #75699 of 75714 Old Yesterday, 03:11 PM
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Originally Posted by mthomas47 View Post
Feri,

If I am interpreting your graph correctly, the filters remain even if there is nothing for them to filter. Is that your interpretation, that the crossover selected really doesn't influence the application of the filters, just the actual capability of the speaker?

Mike
Yes. When set to Large the filters do not taper-off. Yet, when set to Small the filters set by Bass Management will surely taper-off below the c/o point.

Last edited by mogorf; Yesterday at 03:22 PM.
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post #75700 of 75714 Old Yesterday, 04:37 PM
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Originally Posted by mogorf View Post
Yes. When set to Large the filters do not taper-off. Yet, when set to Small the filters set by Bass Management will surely taper-off below the c/o point.

I don't think what I said was quite right even though you were polite enough to agree with me. It appears that our original supposition was correct. Audyssey sets the filters based on the capabilities of the speakers, ie down to their 3db roll-off point. Then, the filters remain, but are not applied (taper off) below the crossover set by the user. That still makes sense since Audyssey couldn't possibly know what crossover will actually be implemented by the user. As Batpig said (paraphrasing), the filters set by Audyssey are independent of the crossovers, but the application of the filters does depend on the user's crossover setting.
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post #75701 of 75714 Old Yesterday, 04:47 PM
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Originally Posted by mthomas47 View Post
I don't think what I said was quite right even though you were polite enough to agree with me. It appears that our original supposition was correct. Audyssey sets the filters based on the capabilities of the speakers, ie down to their 3db roll-off point. Then, the filters remain, but are not applied (taper off) below the crossover set by the user. That still makes sense since Audyssey couldn't possibly know what crossover will actually be implemented by the user. As Batpig said (paraphrasing), the filters set by Audyssey are independent of the crossovers, but the application of the filters does depend on the user's crossover setting.
+1. Agree.
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post #75702 of 75714 Old Yesterday, 05:38 PM
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So the conventional wisdom is wrong:

"No filters will be made for frequencies below the crossover chosen by the AVR, so you can raise it but not lower it."

?
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post #75703 of 75714 Old Yesterday, 05:52 PM
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Originally Posted by Soulburner View Post
So the conventional wisdom is wrong:

"No filters will be made for frequencies below the crossover chosen by the AVR, so you can raise it but not lower it."

?
No, we're not saying that the conventional wisdom is wrong. We were just expressing it a little differently. Audyssey will set filters down to your speakers F3 point (the point at which the speaker's volume drops by 3db). If that point is about 35-40hz, or above, your AVR will set a crossover, depending on what the F3 point is. If your speaker goes below about 35hz or so, your AVR will not set a crossover, but will instead label your speaker as Large. In either case, the filters set by Audyssey will depend on the specific measured frequency response of your speaker. So, you still wouldn't want to pick a crossover below what your AVR set, because there wouldn't be any filters below that (approximate) point. The difficulty comes in with a speaker set to Large, because you may not know precisely how low that speaker goes, and consequently how far down the filters extend. So Large is a little more of a crap shoot.

The conventional wisdom is still correct.
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post #75704 of 75714 Old Yesterday, 05:53 PM
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Originally Posted by Soulburner View Post
So the conventional wisdom is wrong:

"No filters will be made for frequencies below the crossover chosen by the AVR, so you can raise it but not lower it."

?
Actually, the crossover chosen by the AVR means "correction" of the FR stops at that frequency or a bit below, but as the pre-out graph shows it does not "taper-off" as believed previously.
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post #75705 of 75714 Old Yesterday, 06:03 PM
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Originally Posted by mthomas47 View Post
No, we're not saying that the conventional wisdom is wrong. We were just expressing it a little differently. Audyssey will set filters down to your speakers F3 point (the point at which the speaker's volume drops by 3db). If that point is about 35-40hz, or above, your AVR will set a crossover, depending on what the F3 point is. If your speaker goes below about 35hz or so, your AVR will not set a crossover, but will instead label your speaker as Large. In either case, the filters set by Audyssey will depend on the specific measured frequency response of your speaker. So, you still wouldn't want to pick a crossover below what your AVR set, because there wouldn't be any filters below that (approximate) point. The difficulty comes in with a speaker set to Large, because you may not know precisely how low that speaker goes, and consequently how far down the filters extend. So Large is a little more of a crap shoot.

The conventional wisdom is still correct.
IMHO, since the Audyssey chirps start out from 10 Hz it will always be on the safe side since it is beyond doubt that a satellite speaker would ever reach down to that low frequency. Bass Management with its crossover settings is a completely different story, not part of the Audyssey room correction scheme. Right?
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post #75706 of 75714 Old Yesterday, 06:18 PM
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Originally Posted by mogorf View Post
IMHO, since the Audyssey chirps start out from 10 Hz it will always be on the safe side since it is beyond doubt that a satellite speaker would ever reach down to that low frequency. Bass Management with its crossover settings is a completely different story, not part of the Audyssey room correction scheme. Right?
On a second thought. Not doing any more FR correction below the chosen c/o (or a bit lower from the actually measured -3 dB point) vs. tapering-off are two different things. The FR runs out (as seen on the pre-out graph) to the lowest frequency point of the AVR (maybe not seen on the graph with a lower 15 Hz window), yet it doesn't mean MultEQ is going to provide a high-pass filter with a slope that starts to decline down from the c/o point. That's not MultEQ's role.
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Originally Posted by Alan P View Post
My RC64 used to come back at 80hz, then I moved it about 4" closer to the wall and it now comes back at 50hz. The rear of the speaker is now about 10" from the wall (guessing here).
You have a very nice setup and understand why the K-horns would max out on the Denon AVR-4520ci..That said, it really wouldn't make any sense adding an external amp to your setup would it?
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Originally Posted by Zen Traveler View Post
That said, it really wouldn't make any sense adding an external amp to your setup would it?

LOL, you just can't help yourself can you?

We get it, your stance, regardless of owner input, is power amps + Klipsch arent needed.

Panasonic 65" VT50 / Oppo 103D
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post #75709 of 75714 Unread Today, 08:14 AM
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Originally Posted by mogorf View Post
Actually, the crossover chosen by the AVR means "correction" of the FR stops at that frequency or a bit below, but as the pre-out graph shows it does not "taper-off" as believed previously.

Feri,

I can't see your graph quite as clearly as I would like, but it appears to me that the filters are actually stopping a little above the crossover point of 80 which you selected. As I thought about this last night, that made sense to me. If the crossover, which has never been described as a brick wall, but rather as a sloping filter, didn't start the attenuation early, there could still be some potential boosting at or even below the crossover point. This is fairly complicated stuff and I may be confused about it, but I have always speculated that the crossovers are assigned within a plus or minus frequency range. So, for instance, a 40hz crossover might be assigned for anything between about 36 and 43hz, and a 60hz crossover might be assigned for anything between about 44 and 63hz. It may be that 61hz would always round up to 80hz, but that seems a little too precise to me, so I have imagined that the AVRs are programmed to round very slightly up or down.

Of course, I could be completely wrong about this. Maybe a 61hz F3 is consistently assigned an 80hz crossover. But if I am right, it would make sense that the crossover starts the roll-off several decibels before the actual crossover point (as seems to happen in your graph) because the AVR maker wouldn't want to take the chance of over-boosting something toward the upper end (61-63hz) of the assignment range. So, the attenuation starts early and is finished before the time it gets to about 60hz.

Again, my assumption that there is a range, within which rounding up and down occurs, may be wrong. But it never quite made sense to me that there wouldn't be one; that 59 would round-up to 60, but that 61 wouldn't round down. If anyone has some definite information on this question I would be interested in knowing the answer.

Regards,
Mike
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Originally Posted by tbaucom View Post
I am asking these questions because I see people all the time on AVS saying to raise the crossover to 80hz. I am interested in why that is if Audyssey themselves recommend something else.
Because there are other significant reasons to run a higher crossover, besides just a consideration for how Audyssey works.

From the FAQ:

There are various good reasons to use a Crossover of 80Hz or thereabouts:

  1. By doing so, you will relieve the strain on the main speakers from trying to reproduce very low frequencies. This can help the speakers perform better in the mid and higher frequencies.
  2. By doing so you also relieve the considerable strain on the amplifier that it experiences when trying to produce very high Sound Pressure Levels at very low frequencies, such as often found in movie content. It takes simply huge amounts of amplifier power to generate 115 dB at 20Hz or even lower - the amp in the subwoofer has been designed in conjunction with the subwoofer itself to drive the speaker to those levels at those frequencies. By handing off these frequencies to the sub, it greatly eases the strain on your AVR or external amplifier and this will have a beneficial effect on the way it drives the other speakers in the system.
  3. By using a dedicated sub (or subs) to produce the low bass, you are also able to place the sub/s in the optimum room position with regard to room modes. Front speakers have to be positioned for imaging and the best place for a bass speaker is not usually the best place for imaging. By crossing over to a sub at 80Hz, you can place the main speakers in the best place and also the sub in the best place too.
  4. If you have Audyssey XT or MultEQ, the filter resolution for the sub channel is much higher than it is for the satellites, so handing more of the frequencies off to the sub lets you benefit from that greater filter resolution over a wider range of frequencies. With XT32, the filter resolution for the sub channel is the same as for the satellites, so that consideration doesn't apply to anyone fortunate enough to have XT32.

c)2. Why do I often see advice to raise the Crossovers to 80Hz?
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mthomas47 View Post
Audyssey sets the filters based on the capabilities of the speakers, ie down to their 3db roll-off point. Then, the filters remain, but are not applied (taper off) below the crossover set by the user. That still makes sense since Audyssey couldn't possibly know what crossover will actually be implemented by the user.
That is correct, Mike. Changing the XO does not change the EQ filters in any way. That is why it is OK to raise the XO from where Audyssey/AVR set it (but not to lower it as this will leave an uncorrected 'hole' in the FR due to Audyssey only creating filters down to the -3dB point).
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Originally Posted by Zen Traveler View Post
You have a very nice setup and understand why the K-horns would max out on the Denon AVR-4520ci..That said, it really wouldn't make any sense adding an external amp to your setup would it?


The KHorns don't "max out" on my 4520 (if you mean in terms of too low of a speaker trim).

I've never even considered an external amp for lack of power...I have considered it to maybe get Dirac going, but I'm not really seriously considering it at this point.
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AVR: Denon 4520ci, FL/R: Klipschorn, CC: Klipsch RC-64ii, SUR: Polk LS/FX x4, FH: Klipsch RB-51ii x2, SUB: PSA T-18 x2, DISP: Mitsubishi WD-73740, BluRay: PS3 & BDP-S5100, Remote: URC MX-700
--------------------------------------------------
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Originally Posted by gadgtfreek View Post
LOL, you just can't help yourself can you?

We get it, your stance, regardless of owner input, is power amps + Klipsch arent needed.
No. I've never said that but do appreciate teachable moments.

I knew his AVR provided enough power to drive his Home Theater but do feel there are circumstances where an external amp would be needed.
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Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post
Because there are other significant reasons to run a higher crossover, besides just a consideration for how Audyssey works.

From the FAQ:

There are various good reasons to use a Crossover of 80Hz or thereabouts:

  1. By doing so, you will relieve the strain on the main speakers from trying to reproduce very low frequencies. This can help the speakers perform better in the mid and higher frequencies.
  2. By doing so you also relieve the considerable strain on the amplifier that it experiences when trying to produce very high Sound Pressure Levels at very low frequencies, such as often found in movie content. It takes simply huge amounts of amplifier power to generate 115 dB at 20Hz or even lower - the amp in the subwoofer has been designed in conjunction with the subwoofer itself to drive the speaker to those levels at those frequencies. By handing off these frequencies to the sub, it greatly eases the strain on your AVR or external amplifier and this will have a beneficial effect on the way it drives the other speakers in the system.
  3. By using a dedicated sub (or subs) to produce the low bass, you are also able to place the sub/s in the optimum room position with regard to room modes. Front speakers have to be positioned for imaging and the best place for a bass speaker is not usually the best place for imaging. By crossing over to a sub at 80Hz, you can place the main speakers in the best place and also the sub in the best place too.
  4. If you have Audyssey XT or MultEQ, the filter resolution for the sub channel is much higher than it is for the satellites, so handing more of the frequencies off to the sub lets you benefit from that greater filter resolution over a wider range of frequencies. With XT32, the filter resolution for the sub channel is the same as for the satellites, so that consideration doesn't apply to anyone fortunate enough to have XT32.
c)2. Why do I often see advice to raise the Crossovers to 80Hz?

It did not appear to me that Chris's advice to not raise the crossover was based only on how Audyssey XT32 works. In the link, Chris commented on the various reasons for raising the crossover and still recommended not to change them when using XT32. If anything, it seems to me that the original recommendation to raise the crossovers to 80hz was a consideration of how the older versions of Audyssey work.


I'm not saying the best solution is to not change the crossovers. it may be. I think it depends on the situation.
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