"Official" Audyssey thread (FAQ in post #51779) - Page 2524 - AVS | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #75691 of 75706 Old Today, 01:15 PM
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[QUOTE=mogorf;34396354]Again, as you also stated, Chris K. recommended to leave the c/o as set purely on the basis of equally high filter resolutions achived by XT32. This is good of course, very good!

What we need to do from now on is the good placement of the sub(s), a subwoofer crawl comes to mind that will result in deep, smooth and even bass when done properly.

Meantime, leaving the crossover at or close to the speakers' measured -3 dB point and thinking it would give the best blend in the crossover region is kinda "wishful thining". Even Audyssey never said that, nor did they guarantee that.

Saying that "it is easier to hide the location of the subwoofer with a lower crossover" is something I'm not quite sure I understand. Care to expand on this? Thx. [/QUOTE

What i meant was it is easier to place the subwoofer anywhere in the room and not be able to pinpoint the location with a lower crossover. We just had a conversation about being able to localize deep male voices with an 80hz crossover a few post above.I think that is also a reason Chris recommends not raising the crossover. I don't think his recommendation was based purely on the higher filters of XT 32. I did not take that from what he said. I wish he still posted on this thread so we could ask him his thoughts.

Audyssey never said anything about the blend in the crossover region and I don't think i implied that they did. That was my personal thought. I am under the impression that the ideal point to place a crossover would be at a speakers -3 db point. Chris did say that Audyssey pro would recommend the best crossover point. I think this makes it clear that he does not think 80hz or higher is always the best crossover.

I understand the reasoning for using a higher crossover. I don't think it is necessarily the best choice. I think you have to compromise somewhat no matter where you decide to crossover.

Last edited by tbaucom; Today at 01:16 PM. Reason: correct grammar
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post #75692 of 75706 Old Today, 01:24 PM
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Originally Posted by mogorf View Post
Here are pre-out graphs of my Center channel set to Large:

1. Audyssey off:



2. Audyssey On:



AVR: Denon 2310
Center: Dali Concept Center

To me these graphs suggest that a) there is no tapering-off of the MultEQ correction curve despite the fact that the Center c/o was set to 80 Hz and b) the real-life (natural) tapering-off will be done by the speaker itself.
Bump! batpig? Mike?
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post #75693 of 75706 Old Today, 01:42 PM
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Hey guys, just a quick Q

Will increasing the "digital input" DB level in the "source level" part of my receiver distort the sound at a louder level. What exactly is this increasing that is different than just increasing the level of each speaker. Increasing the digital input by 3db seems to be a lot louder of an increase than increasing my master volume by 3db. Thanks!
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post #75694 of 75706 Old Today, 01:51 PM
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Originally Posted by Federo5 View Post
Hey guys, just a quick Q

Will increasing the "digital input" DB level in the "source level" part of my receiver distort the sound at a louder level.
Nope, basically it shouldn't. But it all depends on the capabilities of your speakers, not to mention you sub(s). By doing that you are departing from reference level set by Audyssey. Best is to leave it a 0 dB.

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What exactly is this increasing that is different than just increasing the level of each speaker.
No difference as long as you increase the level of all your speaker by the same amount.

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Increasing the digital input by 3db seems to be a lot louder of an increase than increasing my master volume by 3db. Thanks!
Placebo comes to mind! Did you do a careful blind test?
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post #75695 of 75706 Old Today, 01:54 PM
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Originally Posted by mogorf View Post
Nope, basically it shouldn't. But it all depends on the capabilities of your speakers, not to mention you sub(s). By doing that you are departing from reference level set by Audyssey. Best is to leave it a 0 dB.

No difference as long as you increase the level of all your speaker by the same amount.

Placebo comes to mind! Did you do a careful blind test?
So by increasing the digital input level this will shut off audyseey even if I have the dynamic EQ ON?
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post #75696 of 75706 Old Today, 01:58 PM
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Originally Posted by Federo5 View Post
So by increasing the digital input level this will shut off audyseey even if I have the dynamic EQ ON?
How did you get to that conclusion Federo?

BTW, its Audyssey, not audyseey!! Chris, while he was here used to charge $1 for every misspell!!
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post #75697 of 75706 Old Today, 02:49 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Federo5 View Post
Hey guys, just a quick Q

Will increasing the "digital input" DB level in the "source level" part of my receiver distort the sound at a louder level. What exactly is this increasing that is different than just increasing the level of each speaker. Increasing the digital input by 3db seems to be a lot louder of an increase than increasing my master volume by 3db. Thanks!

If I understand your question correctly, the choice is between increasing the level of every speaker individually, versus increasing the MV by the same amount. I think that increasing each speaker individually by 3db would give you a different sum at your MLP than you would get from simply increasing the MV by 3db. I don't remember if there is a specific formula for this, or just a rule of thumb, so I can't tell you what the decibel difference would be, but I believe that increasing all speaker levels would be a little louder than just increasing the MV by that same amount.

As Feri was saying, increasing your individual levels won't disable DEQ, but it will change your reference point, if you are concerned about trying to more precisely preserve the original intent of the movie soundtrack with DEQ.

Last edited by mthomas47; Today at 03:03 PM.
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post #75698 of 75706 Old Today, 03:02 PM
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Originally Posted by mogorf View Post
Bump! batpig? Mike?

Feri,

If I am interpreting your graph correctly, the filters remain even if there is nothing for them to filter. Is that your interpretation, that the crossover selected really doesn't influence the application of the filters, just the actual capability of the speaker?

Mike
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post #75699 of 75706 Old Today, 03:11 PM
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Originally Posted by mthomas47 View Post
Feri,

If I am interpreting your graph correctly, the filters remain even if there is nothing for them to filter. Is that your interpretation, that the crossover selected really doesn't influence the application of the filters, just the actual capability of the speaker?

Mike
Yes. When set to Large the filters do not taper-off. Yet, when set to Small the filters set by Bass Management will surely taper-off below the c/o point.

Last edited by mogorf; Today at 03:22 PM.
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post #75700 of 75706 Old Today, 04:37 PM
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Yes. When set to Large the filters do not taper-off. Yet, when set to Small the filters set by Bass Management will surely taper-off below the c/o point.

I don't think what I said was quite right even though you were polite enough to agree with me. It appears that our original supposition was correct. Audyssey sets the filters based on the capabilities of the speakers, ie down to their 3db roll-off point. Then, the filters remain, but are not applied (taper off) below the crossover set by the user. That still makes sense since Audyssey couldn't possibly know what crossover will actually be implemented by the user. As Batpig said (paraphrasing), the filters set by Audyssey are independent of the crossovers, but the application of the filters does depend on the user's crossover setting.
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post #75701 of 75706 Old Today, 04:47 PM
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Originally Posted by mthomas47 View Post
I don't think what I said was quite right even though you were polite enough to agree with me. It appears that our original supposition was correct. Audyssey sets the filters based on the capabilities of the speakers, ie down to their 3db roll-off point. Then, the filters remain, but are not applied (taper off) below the crossover set by the user. That still makes sense since Audyssey couldn't possibly know what crossover will actually be implemented by the user. As Batpig said (paraphrasing), the filters set by Audyssey are independent of the crossovers, but the application of the filters does depend on the user's crossover setting.
+1. Agree.
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post #75702 of 75706 Old Today, 05:38 PM
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So the conventional wisdom is wrong:

"No filters will be made for frequencies below the crossover chosen by the AVR, so you can raise it but not lower it."

?
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post #75703 of 75706 Old Today, 05:52 PM
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So the conventional wisdom is wrong:

"No filters will be made for frequencies below the crossover chosen by the AVR, so you can raise it but not lower it."

?
No, we're not saying that the conventional wisdom is wrong. We were just expressing it a little differently. Audyssey will set filters down to your speakers F3 point (the point at which the speaker's volume drops by 3db). If that point is about 35-40hz, or above, your AVR will set a crossover, depending on what the F3 point is. If your speaker goes below about 35hz or so, your AVR will not set a crossover, but will instead label your speaker as Large. In either case, the filters set by Audyssey will depend on the specific measured frequency response of your speaker. So, you still wouldn't want to pick a crossover below what your AVR set, because there wouldn't be any filters below that (approximate) point. The difficulty comes in with a speaker set to Large, because you may not know precisely how low that speaker goes, and consequently how far down the filters extend. So Large is a little more of a crap shoot.

The conventional wisdom is still correct.
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post #75704 of 75706 Old Today, 05:53 PM
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Originally Posted by Soulburner View Post
So the conventional wisdom is wrong:

"No filters will be made for frequencies below the crossover chosen by the AVR, so you can raise it but not lower it."

?
Actually, the crossover chosen by the AVR means "correction" of the FR stops at that frequency or a bit below, but as the pre-out graph shows it does not "taper-off" as believed previously.
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post #75705 of 75706 Old Today, 06:03 PM
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Originally Posted by mthomas47 View Post
No, we're not saying that the conventional wisdom is wrong. We were just expressing it a little differently. Audyssey will set filters down to your speakers F3 point (the point at which the speaker's volume drops by 3db). If that point is about 35-40hz, or above, your AVR will set a crossover, depending on what the F3 point is. If your speaker goes below about 35hz or so, your AVR will not set a crossover, but will instead label your speaker as Large. In either case, the filters set by Audyssey will depend on the specific measured frequency response of your speaker. So, you still wouldn't want to pick a crossover below what your AVR set, because there wouldn't be any filters below that (approximate) point. The difficulty comes in with a speaker set to Large, because you may not know precisely how low that speaker goes, and consequently how far down the filters extend. So Large is a little more of a crap shoot.

The conventional wisdom is still correct.
IMHO, since the Audyssey chirps start out from 10 Hz it will always be on the safe side since it is beyond doubt that a satellite speaker would ever reach down to that low frequency. Bass Management with its crossover settings is a completely different story, not part of the Audyssey room correction scheme. Right?
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post #75706 of 75706 Unread Today, 06:18 PM
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Originally Posted by mogorf View Post
IMHO, since the Audyssey chirps start out from 10 Hz it will always be on the safe side since it is beyond doubt that a satellite speaker would ever reach down to that low frequency. Bass Management with its crossover settings is a completely different story, not part of the Audyssey room correction scheme. Right?
On a second thought. Not doing any more FR correction below the chosen c/o (or a bit lower from the actually measured -3 dB point) vs. tapering-off are two different things. The FR runs out (as seen on the pre-out graph) to the lowest frequency point of the AVR (maybe not seen on the graph with a lower 15 Hz window), yet it doesn't mean MultEQ is going to provide a high-pass filter with a slope that starts to decline down from the c/o point. That's not MultEQ's role.
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