"Official" Audyssey thread (FAQ in post #51779) - Page 2525 - AVS | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #75721 of 75746 Old Yesterday, 06:56 AM
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Originally Posted by mthomas47 View Post
I agree with you that it depends on the situation. I have read that conversation with Chris before, but it has been awhile, so I went back to read it all again. While Chris acknowledges the potential power issues, he is pretty emphatic about leaving the crossovers wherever XT-32 sets them, as long as they aren't set to Large. He is still very adamant about always using Small settings.

Keith made a good point about optimizing speaker positioning, as well, but even that is just a general guideline and not an absolute. I think we all have to pick and choose what recommendations we are going to follow, and where we are going to experiment and then use our own judgment. And frankly, I think that includes not only the advice we can receive on this thread, but Chris' advice, as well. Among the variables which I personally think are important in deciding where to keep your crossovers are: how much you use your system for music, and whether you can hear differences in the sound of your satellite speakers and your sub(s); and what volumes you like to listen to. As Keith was pointing out, it takes a lot of power, and very efficient speakers, to approach Reference volumes in even a fair size room. So, the closer you want to get to Reference, the more important it probably is to have very capable subs to which you can offload bass below about 80hz. On the other hand, if most of your listening is done at -25 to -20, the easier it is to feel comfortable about using lower crossovers.

Almost anything we can say about most of this is a generalization. Keith has been at the forefront of establishing guidelines (the FAQ) which have helped innumerable Audyssey users, including myself, get started. But once we start to understand the basic principles involved, then if we want to go beyond the guidelines and experiment to discover what we really like, then there certainly is no harm in that.

Regards,
Mike

I agree with every thing you said. I just find it ironic that the "official Audyssey thread and faq" does not even mention what the creators of the software actually recommend.
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post #75722 of 75746 Old Yesterday, 09:14 AM
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Originally Posted by tbaucom View Post
I agree with every thing you said. I just find it ironic that the "official Audyssey thread and faq" does not even mention what the creators of the software actually recommend.

I agree it is a little ironic that Chris' comments with respect to XT-32 never got incorporated into the FAQ. They could probably be treated similarly to the alternative approach to setting the LPF for LFE. The standard recommendation is 120hz, but there are some good reasons given for using 80hz.

To me, the whole issue of bass management is so idiosyncratic to the individual goals and audio system of the user, though, that it is difficult to come up with one-size-fits-all guidelines, anyway. The FAQ attempted to establish some simple principles which would apply to the great majority of cases. And I think it does that very successfully. I also think it is assumed that people like yourself who are interested in questioning those principles will post on the thread. At which point, you will start to hear different perspectives, and alternative approaches to some of the Standard Operating Procedure listed in the FAQ. If the FAQ were completely sufficient, in and of itself, we probably wouldn't have had another 24,000 posts since it was created.

With respect to this whole discussion of Chris' 2011 recommendations, though, and what is really the "proper" way to configure your crossovers, I see bass management as something closely associated with Audyssey, but distinct from it, as well. I believe that this is an important point. For instance, you will often hear that Audyssey, or room EQ in general, doesn't care if you are watching 5.1 movies or listening to music. It's purpose is to improve the room/speaker interaction by eliminating some (much) of the treatable distortion. I think that idea is correct: Audyssey doesn't care what your specific audio goals are. It will simply try to improve your overall audio quality by eliminating distortion in the room. But you care what your audio goals are, and in my opinion, that's where bass management starts to get complicated, and starts to diverge from Audyssey as a purely room correction system.

If you are a serious home theater enthusiast (HT is what Audyssey was originally designed for), then you may wish to try to approach Reference volumes with your system. And that goal will drive your satellite speaker choices, your subwoofer speaker choices, your amplifier choices, and your bass management choices. I have read that the average person listens to audio systems at a volume of about -25 to -20 on the Relative scale. I don't know for sure whether that's true, but from what I have seen on this thread, I would say it's in the ballpark. So, let's take the low end of the average and say that you want to watch a 5.1 movie at -24db. (We will just deal with this at average volume levels, for simplicity. Peak volumes would obviously be much higher.) Let's also assume that you have fairly efficient speakers in a not too large room. So, at -24db, let's say you are using only 15 watts per channel. You want to experiment and push your system toward Reference. No problem, you increase the MV by 3db to -21, and you are still using only 30 watts per channel. That's easy for any modern AVR. Increase to -18 and you have to double the power again, to 60 watts. Still no problem. But if you want to get to -15db, now you will need 120 watts per channel, and most AVR's will be clipping by that point. And some speakers may start to have trouble handling that power, as well. If you want to get to -12db (still pretty far from Reference), you will need 240 watts per channel. And so on, with a doubling in power for every 3db. Of course, we are listening at slightly more than double the total volume that we started with by the time we get to -12. A lot of people, including myself, simply don't like listening at very loud volumes, irrespective of distortion. That's probably why average listening volumes are in a much lower range, and why most AVR's don't go much over 120 watts per channel.

But, even making reasonably favorable assumptions regarding the initial power demands at -24db, we can see that the idea of trying to approach Reference volumes requires extremely efficient speakers that can handle lot's of power, really good subs, strong external amplifiers, and good bass management. For the great majority of systems, it would be very important to transfer the load from your satellites to your subs if you are trying to get up anywhere near the -15db range or higher. And you certainly may want to do it at even lower volumes, as well. If you are serious about approaching Reference volumes, though, it will drive many of your equipment choices. But what if you aren't trying to trying to approach Reference volumes? What if your goals are completely different? This is where I think the disconnect comes in with respect to bass management.

If you are content to listen at that presumed average range of -25 to -20db, or so, transferring the load to your sub(s) is a little less important, particularly if you have XT-32. And that is what I think Chris was addressing in Ask Audyssey: the typical user with XT-32 who listens at typical, relatively low volumes. In that case, depending on your own assessment of the sound, and of the capabilities of your satellites and sub(s), crossovers of 60, or even 40, may work perfectly well for you, if that's where your AVR set them.

Or, if your audio system is primarily a music system (as mine is), and HT is distinctly, or even somewhat secondary to that, then lower crossovers, or even running your speakers as Large, may be very viable options. And your goals here may have resulted in deliberately different equipment choices compared to the person who was trying to achieve a Reference HT system. Again, Audyssey doesn't really care about your specific audio goals. It simply tries to EQ the sound to improve room/speaker interactions.

In my opinion, this is often why it is so difficult for us to communicate when we discuss some of these issues. Our goals can be so different, and with them our perspectives, that we find ourselves assuming that others share our own goals, and craft our advice accordingly. This is also why I think the whole subject of bass management is so complicated. You not only have to understand the basic principles of bass management, you also have to clearly understand what your own goals are. And then once you know what you want to accomplish, you have to figure out how best to do that with your room, your system, and your set-up. It's a pretty individual and personal process. It's also pretty hard to get all of that into a set of general guidelines.

I hope people will forgive the length of this post, but I have been thinking the last couple of days that this issue needed a little more discussion, and this was cathartic if nothing else.

Regards,
Mike

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post #75723 of 75746 Old Yesterday, 11:35 PM
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Sorry for cross posting this from the 8802 thread, but maybe I am getting some help here:


Alright,
I got my 8802 yesterday and had the whole Saturday morning to set everything up....Couple of questions further down if someone can be arsed to read through my wall of test.

In addition to the 8802 I got myself an Antimode Dual Core and the first thing I did was to have this little box of magic go crazy on my room modes and it is amazing how flat this thing manages to get the frequenzies below 80 hz. I had some pretty hefty modes around 50 hz which I never got under control with the onboard EQ of my Velodyne and the Antimode just flattened them. Pretty nice...

Second step was then to wire everything up and let Audyssey do its thing...

I havent got around to listen to a full movie, but I managed to play a couple of sequences of my favourite movies/scenes and the results so far sound pretty promising (reference setting with dynamic EQ enabled).

Now there is just one thing I am wondering about...when I first ran Audyssey I ran it as part of the initial setup and I noticed that it basically cranked the volume up on all channel. Pretty much +11 db and +12 db on everything but the Subwoofer, which got -0.5 db assigned, so I assume I nailed at least the Subwoofer Setup with the Antimode.

The volume on the 8802 was the "out of the box" 40 on the volume scale when I ran Audyssey...I thought it was a but strange that every channel was raised basically to the max, but when manually checking the level of the channels with a SPL they were indeed all at the same level (had to raise the volume to 70 on the Marantz to get to 72 db on the SPLwith the help of the testtones).

I then ran Audyssey a second time with the volume up to 48 which seems to be the volume setting I found ok when testing with the above mentioned movie scenes.

Somehow I would have expected that the mastervolume makes a difference, however once again all channels got raised by around 11-12 db.

Could this be related to the fact that I have active speaker? There is the possibility to increase/gain volume on each speaker. At the moment all sit at around 5 of a 0-9 scale.

As mentioned the speakers are all at the same level, but I am wondering if it could cause any harm to have each channel run at max gain from the Pre/Pro settings?

From a sound perspective everything sounds pretty much fine at the moment, only center channel seems to be a bit quiet for my taste so I might increase it a bit from the options menu. Had to do the same with my old processor and with the Nad M17 and the 7702 I had over for testing.


This is the first time I am using Audyssey on a processor, so I would appreciate any advice if the above is normal behaviour.


Thanks a lot!
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post #75724 of 75746 Old Today, 12:05 AM
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Sounds like the settings on the speakers themselves are too high. I'd lower them to 2-3, then rerun audyssey to see if it's still maxing out your trims. If still maxed out, try 1. Other than that, I'm out of ideas and hopefully smarter folks will chime in.


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post #75725 of 75746 Old Today, 01:51 AM
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Originally Posted by ambesolman View Post
Sounds like the settings on the speakers themselves are too high. I'd lower them to 2-3, then rerun audyssey to see if it's still maxing out your trims. If still maxed out, try 1. Other than that, I'm out of ideas and hopefully smarter folks will chime in.


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Thanks for your reply.

But as the trims are maxed out, wouldnt this indicate that the speakers are actually to low level?

My understanding was that the processor tries to set all speakers to reference level of 75 db, so if Audyssy measures one speaker at e.g. 65 db it will set the trim to +10 db. If another speaker is measured at 70 db the trim will be set to + 5 db etc.

I am confused!
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post #75726 of 75746 Old Today, 02:06 AM
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Originally Posted by REM Germany View Post
Thanks for your reply.

But as the trims are maxed out, wouldnt this indicate that the speakers are actually to low level?

My understanding was that the processor tries to set all speakers to reference level of 75 db, so if Audyssy measures one speaker at e.g. 65 db it will set the trim to +10 db. If another speaker is measured at 70 db the trim will be set to + 5 db etc.

I am confused!
Yes, this indicates that the active speakers are set for too low level. Try to increase them from 5 to 7-8 and rerun Audyssey.
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post #75727 of 75746 Old Today, 03:19 AM
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Originally Posted by tbaucom View Post
I agree with every thing you said. I just find it ironic that the "official Audyssey thread and faq" does not even mention what the creators of the software actually recommend.
The FAQ is meant to add to the knowledge base. If all I did was repeat Audyssey's own advice not only would it be pointless (since that advice is freely available from Audyssey) but it wouldn't help us get past all the things Audyssey never told us in the first place. Also, the FAQ is unbiased. Anything Audyssey says has to be viewed through the prism of a manufacturer who wants to sell you his product. Not only does this mean you will never hear from Audyssey any of the shortcomings of MultEQ, but it also means you have to be careful to sift out the marketing BS from the objective facts. I have reviewed the relevant FAQ answer in light of the recent posts and feel there is no need to amend it in any way - the advice it contains is sound. (NPI). Of course, you are free to ignore it if you wish!
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post #75728 of 75746 Old Today, 03:24 AM
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Originally Posted by REM Germany View Post
I then ran Audyssey a second time with the volume up to 48 which seems to be the volume setting I found ok when testing with the above mentioned movie scenes.

Somehow I would have expected that the mastervolume makes a difference, however once again all channels got raised by around 11-12 db.
It doesn’t matter where you set the MV when you run Audyssey. It ignores it.

b)6. Does it matter how I set the controls on my AVR when running Audyssey?

The active speakers aren't relevant really - they are just amplifiers inside the speaker cabinet and no different to power amplifiers outside the cabinet.

Unless the speakers have their own volume controls? In which case, you need to set them to max or close to max and control the overall volume level via the processor.

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Unless the speakers have their own volume controls? In which case, you need to set them to max or close to max and control the overall volume level via the processor.
Just to emphasize: this above is valid also when running MultEQ with active speakers that have their own volume controls. Active speakers should be threated with the same approach as an active subwoofer. Like, when the volume control on the back side of the subwoofer is set too low MultEQ will max. out on the +dB side. Same can happen with such active speakers. Of cource, for running MultEQ there is no need to set the MV on the AVP to anything, coz its ignored by MultEQ.
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Originally Posted by mogorf View Post
Just to emphasize: this above is valid also when running MultEQ with active speakers that have their own volume controls. Active speakers should be threated with the same approach as an active subwoofer. Like, when the volume control on the back side of the subwoofer is set too low MultEQ will max. out on the +dB side. Same can happen with such active speakers. Of cource, for running MultEQ there is no need to set the MV on the AVP to anything, coz its ignored by MultEQ.
Agreed. Did he mention which speakers he is using? Just checked - no but he did say they have gain controls, so I agree - they are similar to active subs in that respect and the setting of the gain controls will influence the trim levels after Audyssey. As he is getting very high trims, then he needs to turn UP the gain on the active speakers, which will result in lower trims. I think he was working on the basis that adjusting the MV on the processor would impact the trims, but as us Audyssey old-timers know, the processor/AVR settings are ignored by Audyssey. He is good to go
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Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post
The FAQ is meant to add to the knowledge base. If all I did was repeat Audyssey's own advice not only would it be pointless (since that advice is freely available from Audyssey) but it wouldn't help us get past all the things Audyssey never told us in the first place. Also, the FAQ is unbiased. Anything Audyssey says has to be viewed through the prism of a manufacturer who wants to sell you his product. Not only does this mean you will never hear from Audyssey any of the shortcomings of MultEQ, but it also means you have to be careful to sift out the marketing BS from the objective facts. I have reviewed the relevant FAQ answer in light of the recent posts and feel there is no need to amend it in any way - the advice it contains is sound. (NPI). Of course, you are free to ignore it if you wish!
Keith,

I assumed you would consider whether the FAQ needed modification in light of the recent discussion, and I am perfectly satisfied with your decision. One of the things I like about the FAQ is that it is conservative. It uses a "First do no harm!" approach to audio. And that specifically includes bass management. Following the advice in the FAQ will protect your speakers and your amps, and many users will be satisfied to stop there. For those who aren't, this thread is a good vehicle for conveying alternative perspectives and approaches.

Regards,
Mike
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Hi Keith, Feri,

Thanks for your help.

The speakers I am using are by a small German brand called Abacus, I didnt mention them simply because they are an "insider" brand in Germany, so I doubt anyone in the US or Europe would know them.

As mentioned in my initial post the speakers have their own volume control, similar to a subwoofer. Right now they are set to 5 out of 9 on the scale.

I got myself a better mic stand today, so I will rerun Audyssey anyway and this time around I will adjust the volume/gain on the speakers to setting 6 and see what will happen.

Other than that is there any harm if the trim by the pre pro is set to basically max level (afraid of clipping or whatever)?

I wont be listening anyhwere near reference level anyway and the speakers are all in sync from a volume perspective as I checked this with a SPL.
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Originally Posted by mthomas47 View Post
Keith,

I assumed you would consider whether the FAQ needed modification in light of the recent discussion, and I am perfectly satisfied with your decision. One of the things I like about the FAQ is that it is conservative. It uses a "First do no harm!" approach to audio. And that specifically includes bass management. Following the advice in the FAQ will protect your speakers and your amps, and many users will be satisfied to stop there. For those who aren't, this thread is a good vehicle for conveying alternative perspectives and approaches.

Regards,
Mike
Keith, Mike,

Wouldn't it be still useful to add some conclusion of this recent discussion to the FAQ? We know its not the kinda topic that pops up everyday, but since it seems (at least to me) that there is a bit of "lack of guidance" on the subject, probably it wouldn't hurt to touch the issue, like "Now that XT32 has equally high resolution (512x) for satellites and sub channel, should I leave the c/o at 40-60 Hz defaulted by the AVR/AVP or raise it to 80 Hz (or above)".

IMHO, this will let readers understand there is no direct correlation between filter resolution and c/o settings with the new XT32. ("new": pun intended!)

You know my question: Whaddaya think?

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Other than that is there any harm if the trim by the pre pro is set to basically max level (afraid of clipping or whatever)?
Max. level means you will never know that its the correct setting or the system ran out of "steam". But a setting like +8 to +10 dB won't (shouldn't) hurt. Apart from having the sub in the mid-lower trim level range (-5 to -9 dB) where the purpose it that sometimes we'd like to have a bit more "woofage", that shouldn't apply to powered speakers.

Hopefully you don't wanna raise the trims of your Mains after Audyssey setup is finished, ...even occasionally.
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Hi could sombody tell me when doing an Audyssey calibration 8 point XT32 i know that the mic should be 50 cm away from back of sofa, now would one if they had the choice 1 = move sofa back and keep mic where the mlp will be 2 = do not move sofa but instead move mic forward 50cm from mlp and back of sofa ? Option 2 would mean surround speakers are not at sides but behind, atmos speakers would be further away and distances also so what have people found best ?
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Hi could sombody tell me when doing an Audyssey calibration 8 point XT32 i know that the mic should be 50 cm away from back of sofa, now would one if they had the choice 1 = move sofa back and keep mic where the mlp will be 2 = do not move sofa but instead move mic forward 50cm from mlp and back of sofa ? Option 2 would mean surround speakers are not at sides but behind, atmos speakers would be further away and distances also so what have people found best ?
Hi zebidou,

I would suggest Option 2, with the amendment that MLP is not equal to "back of sofa", but mic can easily be put 50 cms forward from back of sofa. Even a bit less will be sufficient provided the sofa is not made of leather and the back side is not too high (above your ears).

Surround speakers (like any other speakers) should always be in line of sight reckoned from mic position and best when placed 90-110 degrees from MLP to the sides of the sofa.
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Hi yes the sofa is leather, surrounds when seated are at 90degrees but with option 2 the mic would be 50cm infront of the surround speakers, also back of sofa is above ear level and i raise mic above ear level to detect rear surrounds properly, or would you leave mic at ear level ?
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Originally Posted by mogorf View Post
Max. level means you will never know that its the correct setting or the system ran out of "steam". But a setting like +8 to +10 dB won't (shouldn't) hurt. Apart from having the sub in the mid-lower trim level range (-5 to -9 dB) where the purpose it that sometimes we'd like to have a bit more "woofage", that shouldn't apply to powered speakers.

Hopefully you don't wanna raise the trims of your Mains after Audyssey setup is finished, ...even occasionally.
Ran everything again and adjusted the volume on each speaker from 4.5 to 5 ( somehow I thought I had it set to 5 already).

Now the gains are all set between 6 to max 9.

Subwoofer is at -1 and I assume thats ok as well.
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Ran everything again and adjusted the volume on each speaker from 4.5 to 5 ( somehow I thought I had it set to 5 already).

Now the gains are all set between 6 to max 9.

Subwoofer is at -1 and I assume thats ok as well.
Alles gut! One more thing you need to do is open up a cold bier and enjoy!!!
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Alles gut! One more thing you need to do is open up a cold bier and enjoy!!!
Ha, I did this already earlier today when I reran the Antimode.

Usually takes around 10 minutes so I took the opportunity to grab a beer.

Will check out the new settings with Gravity tonight. Havent seen it yet...
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Originally Posted by REM Germany View Post
Ran everything again and adjusted the volume on each speaker from 4.5 to 5 ( somehow I thought I had it set to 5 already).



Now the gains are all set between 6 to max 9.



Subwoofer is at -1 and I assume thats ok as well.

Glad you got it worked out. Sorry for the backward thinking, I knew there'd be others to chime in and straighten it out. It was about 3a when I replied last night and was trying to get our newborn to sleep.


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Originally Posted by mthomas47 View Post
Keith,

I assumed you would consider whether the FAQ needed modification in light of the recent discussion, and I am perfectly satisfied with your decision. One of the things I like about the FAQ is that it is conservative. It uses a "First do no harm!" approach to audio. And that specifically includes bass management. Following the advice in the FAQ will protect your speakers and your amps, and many users will be satisfied to stop there. For those who aren't, this thread is a good vehicle for conveying alternative perspectives and approaches.

Regards,
Mike
+1. The thread itself is also a mine of useful information and discussion - as you observed earlier, 24,000 posts since the FAQ post have demonstrated that amply
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Originally Posted by mogorf View Post
Keith, Mike,

Wouldn't it be still useful to add some conclusion of this recent discussion to the FAQ? We know its not the kinda topic that pops up everyday, but since it seems (at least to me) that there is a bit of "lack of guidance" on the subject, probably it wouldn't hurt to touch the issue, like "Now that XT32 has equally high resolution (512x) for satellites and sub channel, should I leave the c/o at 40-60 Hz defaulted by the AVR/AVP or raise it to 80 Hz (or above)".

IMHO, this will let readers understand there is no direct correlation between filter resolution and c/o settings with the new XT32. ("new": pun intended!)

You know my question: Whaddaya think?
It may be useful to add clarification to Chris's remarks - leave it with me.
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Originally Posted by REM Germany View Post
Hi Keith, Feri,

Thanks for your help.

The speakers I am using are by a small German brand called Abacus, I didnt mention them simply because they are an "insider" brand in Germany, so I doubt anyone in the US or Europe would know them.

As mentioned in my initial post the speakers have their own volume control, similar to a subwoofer. Right now they are set to 5 out of 9 on the scale.

I got myself a better mic stand today, so I will rerun Audyssey anyway and this time around I will adjust the volume/gain on the speakers to setting 6 and see what will happen.
You’re welcome. What will happen is that the trim levels will be lower - by how much we will see when you've tried it.

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Originally Posted by REM Germany View Post
Other than that is there any harm if the trim by the pre pro is set to basically max level (afraid of clipping or whatever)?

I wont be listening anyhwere near reference level anyway and the speakers are all in sync from a volume perspective as I checked this with a SPL.
I doubt if you would go into clipping but personally I'd feel much more comfortable if the trim levels were closer to 0dB than to 12dB. I’d adjust the gain on the speakers to try to get closer to 0dB if it was me.
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Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post
It may be useful to add clarification to Chris's remarks - leave it with me.
With pleasure, and thanks in advance.
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Originally Posted by zebidou81 View Post
Hi could sombody tell me when doing an Audyssey calibration 8 point XT32 i know that the mic should be 50 cm away from back of sofa, now would one if they had the choice 1 = move sofa back and keep mic where the mlp will be 2 = do not move sofa but instead move mic forward 50cm from mlp and back of sofa ? Option 2 would mean surround speakers are not at sides but behind, atmos speakers would be further away and distances also so what have people found best ?

Hi,

I think a little more information might be helpful. Forgetting Audyssey for just a moment, have you got your speakers set-up optimally with respect to your listening position? You said if you leave the sofa where it is, your surrounds speakers will be behind you, and your Atmos (height?) speakers will be further away. Is that where you want those speakers in relation to your sofa? How far is your sofa from the wall behind it? I think you should concentrate first on having an optimum placement of speakers with respect to your MLP. Then, once you have everything situated for best overall performance, you can go into your Audyssey calibration.

There are things that you can do to mitigate keeping the mic. 50cm (about 19.5") away from the back of a leather sofa. For instance, you can temporarily place a blanket or absorbent towel over the back of the sofa. That will let you move the mic. within about 6" of the sofa back if you want to. With respect to mic. height, you may have to experiment a little to find out what works best in your particular circumstances. Keeping the mic. at ear height for all but two or three mic. positions is generally good advice. Those 2-3 positions might be 2"-3" higher than the others at ear height. Whether that works well for you compared to raising the mic. high enough to get a clear view of your surrounds for all 8 positions is something you may not be able to decide without trying both.

I hope this helps to get you started. Please continue to provide information, and ask questions, and several people will be glad to help.

Regards,
Mike
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