"Official" Audyssey thread (FAQ in post #51779) - Page 2527 - AVS | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #75781 of 75797 Old 05-27-2015, 05:25 PM
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Originally Posted by AustinJerry View Post
The measurement technique is correct now. I don't see a significant difference in the default distance and the tweaked distance, at least not enough that would cause an audible difference. I would leave it at the default.
Okay. Thanks.
Just want to make sure that I was looking at the right thing.
The default distance has roll off at crossover point (90Hz).
My tweaking was such that it becomes as flat as possible at 90Hz without significant drop in the 20-90Hz range. Is this the correct way to tweak?

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post #75782 of 75797 Old Yesterday, 07:15 AM
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Originally Posted by AustinJerry View Post
The measurement technique is correct now. I don't see a significant difference in the default distance and the tweaked distance, at least not enough that would cause an audible difference. I would leave it at the default.
I concur.


I would however crank that sub trim up a bit. Probably sounds a little anemic right now.

AVR: Denon 4520ci, FL/R: Klipschorn, CC: Klipsch RC-64ii, SUR: Polk LS/FX x4, FH: Klipsch RB-51ii x2, SUB: PSA T-18 x2, DISP: Mitsubishi WD-73740, BluRay: PS3 & BDP-S5100, Remote: URC MX-700
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post #75783 of 75797 Old Yesterday, 07:20 AM
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Originally Posted by aaranddeeman View Post
Okay. Thanks.
Just want to make sure that I was looking at the right thing.
The default distance has roll off at crossover point (90Hz).
My tweaking was such that it becomes as flat as possible at 90Hz without significant drop in the 20-90Hz range. Is this the correct way to tweak?
Yes, you are correct. However, you don't really have a problem at the crossover (lucky man!) to begin with so that's why the tweak didn't seem to do much.

Here's a more dramatic example of how the distance tweak can help a big dip over the crossover:


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AVR: Denon 4520ci, FL/R: Klipschorn, CC: Klipsch RC-64ii, SUR: Polk LS/FX x4, FH: Klipsch RB-51ii x2, SUB: PSA T-18 x2, DISP: Mitsubishi WD-73740, BluRay: PS3 & BDP-S5100, Remote: URC MX-700
--------------------------------------------------
Getting Started with REW
Audyssey 101
Audyssey FAQ
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post #75784 of 75797 Old Yesterday, 08:06 AM
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Originally Posted by mthomas47 View Post
I was sort of hoping that you wouldn't ask, as the answer is a little complicated. On the other hand, this question comes up from time to time, so it's probably worthwhile to try to provide a comprehensive explanation. So, here's my take on it.

There are sound waves bouncing around your head (and off it) from the leather sofa back, from the ceiling, from the floor, etc. all the time. You simply don't pay much attention to those sound waves for several reasons. First, if they are very high frequency waves, and many of them are, they are short in wavelength (less than an inch) and transient in duration. Unless there are a lot of them grouped together, our hearing just isn't sensitive enough to notice them. Second, there are psycho-acoustic phenomena in play. We tend to pay the most attention to the first arriving sound (the Precedence Effect: see Haas), so the sound we really notice is coming from the general direction of the speaker(s) playing it. And our brains are actually quite adept at filtering out extraneous noise, as we do when we talk on the telephone, or work, or talk to someone in a crowded restaurant. So, those spurious sound waves bouncing off your sofa and into your ears are largely unnoticed by your hearing, and ignored by your brain.

Ideally, Audyssey, and particularly XT-32, should ignore them as well. What you don't want Audyssey to do is to try to be fussy in the upper frequencies. There are graphs in the Addendum to the FAQ which show the difference between XT trying to over-correct the upper frequencies, and XT-32, doing less up top. The philosophy between the two versions is different. XT-32 attempts to disregard minor deviations in the upper frequencies, and only deal with variations that span across let's say 50-100hz. It's very different at the low end, though, where Audyssey will try to detect and correct issues involving only a few hertz. But, when Audyssey attempts to make so many minor adjustments up high, the result can be a garbled, or harsh sound. So, we want to avoid creating a situation where Audyssey will try to over-adjust in the high frequency range.

The Audyssey microphone doesn't hear the way our ears do; it is far more sensitive. And it doesn't have a psycho-acoustic mechanism like our brain, which will allow it to disregard what it hears in quite the way we can. So, if the mic. gets too close to a hard surface during calibration, the short waves bouncing off the surface into the mic. will "spoof" Audyssey into trying to "fix" a problem that doesn't really exist. Due to the close proximity, the sound waves will seem more prominent, and problematical, than they really are. And in trying to correct for that non-existent problem, Audyssey will create a lot of unnecessary filters (hair) in the upper frequencies. That is called comb filtering due to it's shape, and it is a form of distortion which Audyssey can inadvertently introduce. That's why users are advised to keep the Audyssey microphone about 18" away from hard surfaces. But, trying to stay so far away may not present an ideal calibration, so people came up with the idea of temporarily using a blanket.

When you use a blanket, or towel, during calibration, you can position the mic. close to hard surfaces without worrying about spurious reflections "spoofing" Audyssey into over-correcting. And when you remove the blanket after calibration, you will go back to your normal situation in which the relatively lesser acuteness of your hearing, and the psycho-acoustic phenomena discussed earlier, will protect you from hearing (or noticing) the spurious reflections bouncing around you. A lot of us have tried it and found that to be the case. To summarize, this procedure of using a blanket during calibration has been endorsed by Chris K,. the inventor of Audyssey, and well established empirically by numerous members of the thread. It makes sense acoustically, and it works. Win, Win, as they say.

Regards,
Mike
Awesome write-up Mike. How close can you get with the blanket? I think I read 3 inches somewhere, does that sound correct? Thanks.
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post #75785 of 75797 Old Yesterday, 10:07 AM
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Originally Posted by johnnymacIII View Post
Awesome write-up Mike. How close can you get with the blanket? I think I read 3 inches somewhere, does that sound correct? Thanks.
Thank you! I don't know that I have ever heard of a specific distance limitation. I generally keep the microphone about 4"-6" away from the blanket, but I think you would probably have to experiment to find out what works best for you. Depending on how much you lean back when you watch/listen, your ear canals are going to be about 4" or so from the back of the chair or couch, anyway. I have never felt that having the mic. 6" away from the back of my chair made any difference to the sound. Now, getting 18" away on the other hand, does make a difference for me.
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post #75786 of 75797 Old Yesterday, 10:31 AM
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Originally Posted by Alan P View Post
Yes, you are correct. However, you don't really have a problem at the crossover (lucky man!) to begin with so that's why the tweak didn't seem to do much.

Here's a more dramatic example of how the distance tweak can help a big dip over the crossover:

Ah. looks like I am in much better shape (may be due to my sub is nearfield).
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post #75787 of 75797 Old Yesterday, 04:54 PM
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Hi all,

I just installed a Denon 2100w and some vintage Boston Acoustics VR 30. I am NOT running a subwoofer. They've only been hooked up for a few days now. On the first day, I did not use Audessey, and I thought the speakers sounded incredible as is. On the second or third day I tried Audessey, but honestly, did not put much effort into it. I received a refurbished Denon, which came with everything (seemingly) except the microphone stand, so I set the Audessey mic up on a cardboard box at ear level. I also only ran the test with one position. Honestly the results were quite good, in fact, I seem to like it more each day. It definitely enlarged the soundstage and raised it up.

Anyways, I have one complaint. Bass. I'm streaming TIDAL, so I'm getting CD quality sound, but I still find myself wanting to turn on "restorer" to low, because it really increases the bottom end and adds a lot of power to the sound. I don't know how else to explain it. I know that sometimes people are just used to music with heavy bass, but I don't really think that's the case here. Seeing that I don't have a sub, I can't run one "hot." I'd like to keep the current Audessey setting but some how add bass to it. I can do this perfectly by turning on "restorer" to low, but that also increases the highs and at that point they become just a little bit over done.

I know I need to run Audessey again with the proper stand, but based on my experience so far, and having had what I think was Audessey used in my car nearly six years ago, I can almost bet that I'm going to think it will be lacking in the bottom end. Is there anything I can do under these circumstances, besides to get a sub? It's not something that's in the cards right now.

I should add that I have read through most of the FAQ and guide in this thread and am planning to read it again now.

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post #75788 of 75797 Old Yesterday, 05:20 PM
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Have you tried Dynamic EQ? I much prefer it ON because music lacks bass without it, especially at lower volumes. Otherwise, many people increase their sub level after Audyssey.
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post #75789 of 75797 Old Yesterday, 05:25 PM
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Originally Posted by CRT Guy View Post
Hi all,
Anyways, I have one complaint. Bass. I'm streaming TIDAL, so I'm getting CD quality sound, but I still find myself wanting to turn on "restorer" to low, because it really increases the bottom end and adds a lot of power to the sound.
What is "restorer?" Is it just bass boost? If so. how many dB? Or does it synthesize extra bass? Some devices create bass underpinning one octave lower than whatever the fundamental of a given bass note is.

If you play your system significantly below Reference Level, the measured bass boost given by Audyssey's DEQ may help. I don't like it, but many do.

If you have a true bass control (not the one octave sliders which are incompatible with Audyssey), you can boost it a little. In my system I use Audyssey FLAT or Audyssey Reference with up to 6 dB bass boost. The advantage of this boost is that it does punch up some bass in the Left and Right main speakers between 80 to 200 Hz. People who just turn up their sub after Audyssey calibration are mainly changing response at about the crossover point and below (usually from 80 Hz on down). That helps, but does little to the areas of upper bass above 80 Hz, where some bass drum & timpani impact zones are (the latter instruments also have plenty of response below 80, but not generally the "smack" of the impact). In addition to using a little boost with the bass control, I also turn my sub a bit. I know you can't do that -- yet.
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post #75790 of 75797 Old Yesterday, 05:54 PM
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Originally Posted by garygarrison View Post
What is "restorer?" Is it just bass boost? If so. how many dB? Or does it synthesize extra bass? Some devices create bass underpinning one octave lower than whatever the fundamental of a given bass note is.

If you play your system significantly below Reference Level, the measured bass boost given by Audyssey's DEQ may help. I don't like it, but many do.

If you have a true bass control (not the one octave sliders which are incompatible with Audyssey), you can boost it a little. In my system I use Audyssey FLAT or Audyssey Reference with up to 6 dB bass boost. The advantage of this boost is that it does punch up some bass in the Left and Right main speakers between 80 to 200 Hz. People who just turn up their sub after Audyssey calibration are mainly changing response at about the crossover point and below (usually from 80 Hz on down). That helps, but does little to the areas of upper bass above 80 Hz, where some bass drum & timpani impact zones are (the latter instruments also have plenty of response below 80, but not generally the "smack" of the impact). In addition to using a little boost with the bass control, I also turn my sub a bit. I know you can't do that -- yet.
What do you mean if I have "true bass control." You can hit options, go to "tone" and adjust bass and treble, but not in Audessey mode IIRC.
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post #75791 of 75797 Old Yesterday, 06:40 PM
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Originally Posted by CRT Guy View Post
What do you mean if I have "true bass control." You can hit options, go to "tone" and adjust bass and treble, but not in Audessey mode IIRC.
Well, on my Marantz pre/pro (AV7005), you can adjust the bass and treble controls in the Audyssey mode, but not if you also select DEQ, a mode several of us don't like (though most do). I go to Audio/Video Adjust, Enter, Audio Adjust, Arrow Right, which gives me some options. The second one down is "Tone." I arrow down to it, Enter, and am given the options of tone control ON or Off. I select "ON," then go down to Bass 0 dB, and turn it up to +1 through +6 depending on the recording. I almost always leave the treble at 0 dB.

These are true tone controls because they give you a sloped boost over several octaves, rather than a narrow boost to a slice of sound anywhere between 1 octave (the terrible Marantz EQ sliders) and 1/4 octave or less, adjustable as to center (the better parametric equalizers).

These Marantz tone controls can be used with Audyssey (after Audyssey calibration). Their EQ is superimposed on the Audyssey room correction curves, and will not turn Audyssey off. The quick acid test is always to look at the Audyssey Indicator light on the front panel of the pre/pro or AVR. It stays on when these tone controls are used, and the effect of the tone controls + Audyssey in the room can be picked up by REW.

The tone controls will remain effective with either Audyssey FLAT or Audyssey Reference. They will turn off, however, if you activate Dynamic EQ. I play close to Reference Level most of the time, so I have no use for the complex EQ of DEQ, which was intended for people who play at a significantly lower level. I HAVE tried DEQ v.s. Tone Controls at lower levels, though, and I find the tone controls to be far superior. DEQ veils the sound a bit on my set-up. At a given volume control level (usually 5 dB below reference, for movies, for me) the tone controls can be varied to subjectively compensate for lack of balance in the recording.
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post #75792 of 75797 Old Yesterday, 06:50 PM
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Originally Posted by garygarrison View Post
Well, on my Marantz pre/pro (AV7005), you can adjust the bass and treble controls in the Audyssey mode, but not if you also select DEQ, a mode several of us don't like (though most do). I go to Audio/Video Adjust, Enter, Audio Adjust, Arrow Right, which gives me some options. The second one down is "Tone." I arrow down to it, Enter, and am given the options of tone control ON or Off. I select "ON," then go down to Bass 0 dB, and turn it up to +1 through +6 depending on the recording. I almost always leave the treble at 0 dB.

These are true tone controls because they give you a sloped boost over several octaves, rather than a narrow boost to a slice of sound anywhere between 1 octave (the terrible Marantz EQ sliders) and 1/4 octave or less, adjustable as to center (the better parametric equalizers).

These Marantz tone controls can be used with Audyssey (after Audyssey calibration). Their EQ is superimposed on the Audyssey room correction curves, and will not turn Audyssey off. The quick acid test is always to look at the Audyssey Indicator light on the front panel of the pre/pro or AVR. It stays on when these tone controls are used, and the effect of the tone controls + Audyssey in the room can be picked up by REW.

The tone controls will remain effective with either Audyssey FLAT or Audyssey Reference. They will turn off, however, if you activate Dynamic EQ. I play close to Reference Level most of the time, so I have no use for the complex EQ of DEQ, which was intended for people who play at a significantly lower level. I HAVE tried DEQ v.s. Tone Controls at lower levels, though, and I find the tone controls to be far superior. DEQ veils the sound a bit on my set-up. At a given volume control level (usually 5 dB below reference, for movies, for me) the tone controls can be varied to subjectively compensate for lack of balance in the recording.
Aha! Thank you for your very informative post. I had DEQ on (but dynamic volume off of course!), so that was my issue. Can you or someone else explain how to change crossovers after Audessey?
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post #75793 of 75797 Unread Today, 07:19 AM
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This may have been answered and may be a bit of a noob question. But when running Audyessy does it adjust the crossover cutoffs at all or is that still a manual process?
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post #75794 of 75797 Unread Today, 07:38 AM
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Originally Posted by CRT Guy View Post
Aha! Thank you for your very informative post. I had DEQ on (but dynamic volume off of course!), so that was my issue. Can you or someone else explain how to change crossovers after Audessey?

Hi,

The FAQ has some good basic information on bass management, and on how to change crossovers. In your case, though, all of your speakers should default to "Large" since you don't have a sub. The crossovers in an AVR determine at what frequency (crossover) bass will be directed to a separate subwoofer rather than played by the satellite speakers in an audio system. Depending on the measured frequency response of a given speaker, the AVR will set the speaker as either Large (full-range; no crossover) or Small (with a crossover of 40hz, 80hz, etc.). When there is no sub, the AVR will automatically set all speakers in a system to Large (full-range). So, until you get a sub, I don't believe there is a way to re-set your speakers to Small. Only if your speakers are set to Small, can you select a crossover. You can try going into your Speaker Menu to verify what I have told you. I have never tried doing anything like that without a sub, but I don't believe your Denon will let you re-set your speakers to Small. And if you could, I am not sure what purpose it would serve. You would simply not be able to hear certain frequencies at all because no speaker in your system would be able to play below the crossover selected.

You could probably do a Google search for "bass management" and find some good reading material on the subject. I think it is a little hard to understand some of these concepts until we are actually able to implement them. So fully understanding bass management, and the concept of crossovers, is probably a little bit dependent on having, and experimenting with, a sub. It would probably be a good idea to describe your system a little bit. Are you running a 2-channel system, or do you have additional speakers such as center, surrounds, etc.?

I just did some research on your VR-30's. They look like nice speakers. I think Gary's advice to experiment with the tone control is good advice. You can also go into your Audyssey menu (inside Audio) and listen to the difference between Audyssey and Flat. As Gary said, some people prefer the Flat setting.

Regards,
Mike

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post #75795 of 75797 Unread Today, 09:39 AM
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So your stating no matter what "size" of mains you have you will always want them set to small when a sub is present? The small setting enables you to establish the cross over based on your speakers statistics?
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post #75796 of 75797 Unread Today, 09:44 AM
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So your stating no matter what "size" of mains you have you will always want them set to small when a sub is present? The small setting enables you to establish the cross over based on your speakers statistics?
There's an excellent blog titled "Small vs. Large" written by Chris Kyriakakis, creator of Audyssey. (Link in my sig).
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post #75797 of 75797 Unread Today, 09:52 AM
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So your stating no matter what "size" of mains you have you will always want them set to small when a sub is present? The small setting enables you to establish the cross over based on your speakers statistics?

I wouldn't necessarily say that you should always set your size to Small, but that setting probably works best for the great majority of situations. As you say, the Small setting let's you engage your sub, which transfers the heavy lifting duty from the fronts and the center to a subwoofer which may be better designed for the task.The FAQ, linked below, provides good background information and recommendations. Read that first, because that is the standard "best practice" advice. Then, if you are interested in an alternative viewpoint, you can check-out Post # 75721, a couple of pages back.
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