"Official" Audyssey thread (FAQ in post #51779) - Page 2528 - AVS | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #75811 of 75839 Old 05-29-2015, 01:13 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dbruce13 View Post
Blind Faith....
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post #75812 of 75839 Old 05-29-2015, 01:28 PM
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Originally Posted by Dbruce13 View Post
Just purchased 2 Paradigm Monitor SUB 12's. I have the PBK kit as well but was waiting to break the subs in before performing the calibration
Paradigm Monitor subs have the previously mentioned SUB IN/LFE IN (L) jack. Try to use that input with your initial setup and then run MultEQ without the PBK kit and see how it sounds to your ears. Report back, please.
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post #75813 of 75839 Old 05-29-2015, 01:32 PM
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Originally Posted by mogorf View Post
Chris K. in post # 22593:


"The analog phase control knob on the back of the sub is basically, well... useless. It only operates on one frequency and often will cause more harm than good by introducing group delay. I highly recommend leaving it at 0.

The problem of summing two subs is a complex one. What we found is that it is best to first time align them either by digital delay or by placing them at the same distance from the listening position. Then, you need to level align them. After that, the best results are obtained by summing the two subs and creating a single room correction filter for the time- and level-aligned combination.


If it's not possible to place the subs at the same distance, then just feed them with a y-cord from the AVR subwoofer output and let MultEQ try to correct the anomalies due to phase (time) and the room."

Alan ain't gonna like this!

I actually completely agree with Chris K's quote with the exception of what I bolded.

However, in real-world situations, placing multiple subs equidistant to the MLP is just not possible and not everyone has time correction ability, soooo.....we must resort to using the phase control.


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Originally Posted by Dbruce13 View Post
So what is the general recommendation for the phase setting with running 2 subs? Still set to zero or is there some other method for tweeking?
What AVR do you have? Does it have the ability to set distance for two subs (i.e. Audyssey XT32 w/SubEQ HT)?

If not, have you considered acquiring an outboard box to properly time-align the subwoofers (i.e. MiniDSP)?

If none of the above and your subwoofers are going to be differing distances from the MLP - while playing your AVRs pink noise sub cal tone, adjust the phase control on one of the subs until you get the highest SPL at the MLP. This is the best you can do without proper time-alignment (IMO).


Quote:
Originally Posted by Dbruce13 View Post
Blind Faith....

Love me some Blind Faith.


AVR: Denon 4520ci, FL/R: Klipschorn, CC: Klipsch RC-64ii, SUR: Polk LS/FX x4, FH: Klipsch RB-51ii x2, SUB: PSA T-18 x2, DISP: Mitsubishi WD-73740, BluRay: PS3 & BDP-S5100, Remote: URC MX-700
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post #75814 of 75839 Old 05-29-2015, 01:50 PM
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Originally Posted by Alan P View Post
However, in real-world situations, placing multiple subs equidistant to the MLP is just not possible and not everyone has time correction ability, soooo.....we must resort to using the phase control.
But, but, but, Alan...you agreed with the un-bolded parts of Chris saying:

"The analog phase control knob on the back of the sub is basically, well... useless. It only operates on one frequency and often will cause more harm than good by introducing group delay. I highly recommend leaving it at 0."

"Group delay" is supposed to be the key-word here, doesn't it?

Quote:
If none of the above and your subwoofers are going to be differing distances from the MLP - while playing your AVRs pink noise sub cal tone, adjust the phase control on one of the subs until you get the highest SPL at the MLP. This is the best you can do without proper time-alignment (IMO).
Nothing wrong with that approach as long as the ears of the listener are satisfied/pleased. Though a bit far from what we call reference, or in another term: "intended use".

Enjoy!
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post #75815 of 75839 Old 05-29-2015, 03:03 PM
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Cable break-in... :)

From http://www.morrowaudio.com/ :

http://www.morrowaudio.com/breakin_2.html

Quote

"CABLE BREAK-IN


Our cables require a total of 400 to 500 hours to completely break in. If you ordered our 2 day cable break-in service, your cables will arrive with the equivalent of 96 hours on them. If you ordered the extended 5 day breakin, the equivalent of 240 hours will be on them."

Unquote

I wonder how much they charge for sucha neat service? BTW, me thinks 2 days are 48 hours not 96, and 5 day are 120 hours not 240, but who knows?

Friday humor, eh?

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post #75816 of 75839 Old 05-29-2015, 03:25 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mogorf View Post
But, but, but, Alan...you agreed with the un-bolded parts of Chris saying:

"The analog phase control knob on the back of the sub is basically, well... useless. It only operates on one frequency and often will cause more harm than good by introducing group delay. I highly recommend leaving it at 0."

"Group delay" is supposed to be the key-word here, doesn't it?

Nothing wrong with that approach as long as the ears of the listener are satisfied/pleased. Though a bit far from what we call reference, or in another term: "intended use".

Enjoy!
Well, all I can say that in MY room with MY (old) subs, using the phase control to get the subs "in-phase" helped my overall frequency response. When they were out-of-phase there was a lot of cancellation going on.

Of course, after I got a MiniDSP (and later, SubEQ HT) everything got slightly better, but by using the phase knob it was markedly better than when the subs were completely out-of-phase.

FYI, this was with one sub 15' from MLP and the other only 3' from the MLP.

AVR: Denon 4520ci, FL/R: Klipschorn, CC: Klipsch RC-64ii, SUR: Polk LS/FX x4, FH: Klipsch RB-51ii x2, SUB: PSA T-18 x2, DISP: Mitsubishi WD-73740, BluRay: PS3 & BDP-S5100, Remote: URC MX-700
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Audyssey FAQ
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post #75817 of 75839 Old 05-29-2015, 03:29 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alan P View Post
I actually completely agree with Chris K's quote with the exception of what I bolded.

However, in real-world situations, placing multiple subs equidistant to the MLP is just not possible and not everyone has time correction ability, soooo.....we must resort to using the phase control.




What AVR do you have? Does it have the ability to set distance for two subs (i.e. Audyssey XT32 w/SubEQ HT)?

If not, have you considered acquiring an outboard box to properly time-align the subwoofers (i.e. MiniDSP)?

If none of the above and your subwoofers are going to be differing distances from the MLP - while playing your AVRs pink noise sub cal tone, adjust the phase control on one of the subs until you get the highest SPL at the MLP. This is the best you can do without proper time-alignment (IMO).





Love me some Blind Faith.

Denon avr 2313ci
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post #75818 of 75839 Old 05-29-2015, 03:42 PM
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Originally Posted by Dbruce13 View Post
Denon avr 2313ci
Well, you answered one of the two questions.

That is the AVR I had before the 4520. If you don't plan on buying some sort of box to properly time align the subs, upgrade to XT32 or place the subs equidistant to the MLP...the phase knob is all you got.


FWIW, here's my (very) basic setup procedure for dual subs with and Audyssey AVR. This assumes you have two identical subs:

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Set the gain on both subs to the same level - around 12:00-2:00 on the gain knob is a good starting point (just a starting point, gain structure can vary greatly from one manufacturer to another). Set phase to "0" on both subs for now.

1. Connect sub #1 only and place it at the MLP
2. Do the sub crawl to determine the best position for sub #1
3. Place sub #1 in that position
4. Connect both subs and place sub #2 at the MLP (with sub #1 playing as well)
5. Do the sub crawl to determine the best position for sub #2
6. Place sub #2 in that position
7. Playing the AVRs test tone, adjust phase on one of the subs until you get the maximum SPL at the MLP (could be variable or a simple 0/180 switch) (if you have SubEQ HT, skip this step)
8. Run Audyssey, first mic position only, and "calculate"
9. Look to see where Audyssey has set your sub trim, you want it to be around -6db to -8db ideally
10. Adjust the gain on both subs by the same amount up or down as needed
11. Repeat 8-10 until you get the sub trim around -6db to -8db
12. Run the full Audyssey calibration
13. Set all speakers to "small"
14. Set all crossovers to 80hz (or, if set higher than 80hz by Audyssey, leave them alone)
15. Bump up the sub trim by 3db to 6db to your preference
16. Enjoy!

AVR: Denon 4520ci, FL/R: Klipschorn, CC: Klipsch RC-64ii, SUR: Polk LS/FX x4, FH: Klipsch RB-51ii x2, SUB: PSA T-18 x2, DISP: Mitsubishi WD-73740, BluRay: PS3 & BDP-S5100, Remote: URC MX-700
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Audyssey 101
Audyssey FAQ
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post #75819 of 75839 Old 05-29-2015, 03:49 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alan P View Post
Well, all I can say that in MY room with MY (old) subs, using the phase control to get the subs "in-phase" helped my overall frequency response. When they were out-of-phase there was a lot of cancellation going on.

Of course, after I got a MiniDSP (and later, SubEQ HT) everything got slightly better, but by using the phase knob it was markedly better than when the subs were completely out-of-phase.

FYI, this was with one sub 15' from MLP and the other only 3' from the MLP.
Cute, not really technical or scientific Alan, but cute. Enjoy your system to the brim. Never mind that the phase control on the back side of the subwoofer works only at one frequency (which we usually don't know which one that frequency is supposed to be!)

Still not sure how the subwoofers' phase control that works for one frequency only can work equally on the overall frequency response and how it is supposed to do justice when "out-of-phase" resulted in a lot of cancellations. Cancellations of what?

Nonetheless, most important is that in your room with your (old) subs it worked for you!!!

Enjoy!
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post #75820 of 75839 Old 05-29-2015, 04:04 PM
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All I can tell you Feri is I saw it with my own eyes (in REW) and heard it with my own ears.

I can't help but notice you only have one sub.

Just sayin'.

AVR: Denon 4520ci, FL/R: Klipschorn, CC: Klipsch RC-64ii, SUR: Polk LS/FX x4, FH: Klipsch RB-51ii x2, SUB: PSA T-18 x2, DISP: Mitsubishi WD-73740, BluRay: PS3 & BDP-S5100, Remote: URC MX-700
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post #75821 of 75839 Old 05-29-2015, 04:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alan P View Post
All I can tell you Feri is I saw it with my own eyes (in REW) and heard it with my own ears.

I can't help but notice you only have one sub.

Just sayin'.
As I said: enjoy! Your ears are the boss!
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post #75822 of 75839 Old 05-29-2015, 05:47 PM
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I thought the wife was the boss? Now I'm confused
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post #75823 of 75839 Old 05-30-2015, 02:12 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alan P View Post
All I can tell you Feri is I saw it with my own eyes (in REW) and heard it with my own ears.

I can't help but notice you only have one sub.

Just sayin'.
It is clearly important that if you have two subs that they are in phase with each other or there will be cancellation. I had exactly the same experience as you did when I had my SVS PC12 NSD subs. In order to maximise the bass output I had to adjust the phase control on one of the subs, while observing the results in real time with OmniMic. Of course, for those with only one sub, it will be difficult for them to have the sub out of phase with itself In their case, they may benefit from adjusting the sub delay (distance) in the AVR to ensure that the mains and the sub are in phase at the splice.
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post #75824 of 75839 Old 05-30-2015, 11:45 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alan P View Post
All I can tell you Feri is I saw it with my own eyes (in REW) and heard it with my own ears.
Alan, I suppose you are looking at the magnitude vs. frequency response graph in REW.

Ever thought of looking into the corresponding phase vs. frequency graph? Would be interesting to see how phase changes with the adjustment of the phase control knob on the subwoofer(s). This goes for any number of subs from 1 to infinity.
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post #75825 of 75839 Old 05-30-2015, 03:29 PM
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Originally Posted by mogorf View Post
Alan, I suppose you are looking at the magnitude vs. frequency response graph in REW.

Ever thought of looking into the corresponding phase vs. frequency graph? Would be interesting to see how phase changes with the adjustment of the phase control knob on the subwoofer(s). This goes for any number of subs from 1 to infinity.
What do you guys think of this?

http://www.hometheatershack.com/foru...irac-live.html
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post #75826 of 75839 Old 05-30-2015, 03:52 PM
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Originally Posted by Federo5 View Post
Don't think much on my side. The guy is trying his wings in PreferenceLand with all this one point mic placements and all that jazz.

Nothing wrong with preference, though best is always to start from reference. Do the "intended use" approach and if you don't like it do your own tweaking! People like to tweak!!
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post #75827 of 75839 Old 05-30-2015, 04:31 PM
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Don't think much on my side. The guy is trying his wings in PreferenceLand with all this one point mic placements and all that jazz.

Nothing wrong with preference, though best is always to start from reference. Do the "intended use" approach and if you don't like it do your own tweaking! People like to tweak!!
Most these days would prefer a twerk. I prefer a tweak myself.

I have door windows to the balcony off to the far side of the right speaker maybe 10-12 feet to the side, would it be better to draw the curtains closed during calibration or leave open?
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post #75828 of 75839 Old 05-30-2015, 04:34 PM
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Most these days would prefer a twerk. I prefer a tweak myself.

I have door windows to the balcony off to the far side of the right speaker maybe 10-12 feet to the side, would it be better to draw the curtains closed during calibration or leave open?
Whatever you prefer, but be reminded for best results keep the room set as it was set while doing the calibration.
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post #75829 of 75839 Old 05-30-2015, 04:58 PM
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Originally Posted by Federo5 View Post
I'll have to re-read it and digest it a bit more.

Some of us like to make movie watching or music listening a communal experience. The minimum audience size for films in our HT is two (my wife and I), but we like to have our daughter over, along with her boyfriend. Sometimes my wife's sister is present. That makes 5 listening positions. We are willing to accept a compromise calibration obtained from the usual 8 mic positions. I have compared the 5 seats with Audyssey v.s. Audyssey Flat v.s. No Audyssey, and Audyssey processing increases clarity and, you should pardon the audiophile expression, "musicality" in all 5 positions. The preference of A.Flat v.s. A Reference depends on the source.

If I were to be the sole listener, I would experiment with the tight cluster of mic positions that has been discussed here several times v.s. a single mic position.

But, I'm not.

It is the communal movie experience, and what Hitchcock called the "refrigerator talk" afterward that will support continuing to have home and commercial theaters, even if someone develops super HD personal viewing screens built into goggles, along with great headphones. Even though I like 5.1 and above, which, in my experience ranges from orgasmic to gimmicky and distracting, I'd willingly give it up for headphones if it were not for the communal experience I enjoy. It is the primary reason I put up with room anomalies, and Audyssey (with 8 spread out mic positions) does what it can to minimize these problems.
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post #75830 of 75839 Old Yesterday, 06:22 AM
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Originally Posted by Federo5 View Post

I think it's an interesting analysis. Over the years a couple of people, whose opinions I respect, have reported getting good results from using a single mic. position. But I suspect that it depends a great deal on the particular room in question, and like the author, the people who reported those results were measuring carefully, and I assume listening carefully, as well.

It has certainly always made sense to me to use the recommended number of microphone positions. The idea of giving Audyssey more information with which to work is sensible. Like Feri, I also prefer starting with the recommended approach and then experimenting from there.

I like that the author was confirming the use of the blanket approach in his analysis. I have heard the difference too. I am also wondering, as I believe Gary was, whether a single mic. position would have given good results at multiple listening positions? I do EQ for a single listening position, using a fairly tight pattern, and while I believe that the sound is slightly better at the MLP, it's really pretty good over a wide area. Again, that may be partly a property of my particular room. One of the things that I find helpful is keeping the mic. at ear level for 6 of the 8 positions, and then raising the mic. by 2"-3" for the other 2 positions. Not only do we lean forward and back, and side-to-side, we also sit up straighter sometimes. I have always liked the idea of giving Audyssey a little sampling data a little above ear level. I wonder whether that would have changed the author's measured, or audible, response at all?
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post #75831 of 75839 Old Yesterday, 10:45 AM
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I think I have a firm grasp on DEQ...what it is and how it works. I own a Marantz SR7008.
Are you all adjusting the DEQ reference offset level much?
Most of my movie viewing is around -15 on volume. Music is around -20. I never ever listen higher than -10, much less 0.
With DEQ reference set to 0, I find music vocals and dialog at volume settings around -20 to -15 (the range I listen at usually) take on a distant/cupped/chesty sound, but the actual bass sounds soooo nice. Grrr! So I turn down the reference for vocal clarity and lose that nice bass boost.
Anyone have similar results?

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post #75832 of 75839 Old Yesterday, 11:37 AM
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I think I have a firm grasp on DEQ...what it is and how it works. I own a Marantz SR7008.
Are you all adjusting the DEQ reference offset level much?
Most of my movie viewing is around -15 on volume. Music is around -20. I never ever listen higher than -10, much less 0.
With DEQ reference set to 0, I find music vocals and dialog at volume settings around -20 to -15 (the range I listen at usually) take on a distant/cupped/chesty sound, but the actual bass sounds soooo nice. Grrr! So I turn down the reference for vocal clarity and lose that nice bass boost.
Anyone have similar results?

Yes, it's a little bit of a dilemma. DEQ provides some boost at both the top end, and in the bass range, but that in turn, somewhat occludes the mid-range. Most vocals would be played more in that mid-range between about 250hz and 4500hz, which is in between where DEQ is boosting. I believe that may be one reason why some people turn up the center channel a little bit when they use DEQ for movies--so they can hear dialogue better. I don't know whether that would work as well for vocals in music, but you could try it.

Another thing that is probably contributing to the problem of somewhat occluded vocals is the fact that DEQ is boosting the surround speakers by 3db, which is a little more than 20%. Since most vocals, or instrument solos for that matter, will be coming from the center channel and the fronts, that makes the vocals a little less prominent by comparison. Some people try turning their surrounds down by 3db, either temporarily, or permanently. I actually enjoy the surround boost sometimes for movies with a lot of special effects, but it doesn't work well for me for music.

A third alternative would be to disable DEQ for music, and try adding bass manually using either your sub volume in your AVR and/or the tone controls. The tone controls would affect only your front speakers. When you re-engage DEQ for movies, for instance, the tone controls will be disabled. Turning DEQ off, will re-engage the tone controls at their previous setting. So, it's pretty easy to experiment, going back and forth, to discover what you like. If you simply want more bass while preserving mid-range clarity, this is an easy way to get it. You may also want to experiment with the Audyssey Flat setting. That is where I achieve the greatest clarity in my system. But then, you may also find the need to use the same tone controls to roll-off a little bit of treble, depending on how bright your room and speakers are. There is a lot of built-in user control in your AVR, and your Audyssey software, if you know where to look for it and don't mind experimenting.

I would be interested in knowing what you think after you experiment some more.

Regards,
Mike

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post #75833 of 75839 Old Yesterday, 12:08 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mthomas47 View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by g.costanza View Post
I think I have a firm grasp on DEQ...what it is and how it works. I own a Marantz SR7008.
Are you all adjusting the DEQ reference offset level much?
Most of my movie viewing is around -15 on volume. Music is around -20. I never ever listen higher than -10, much less 0.
With DEQ reference set to 0, I find music vocals and dialog at volume settings around -20 to -15 (the range I listen at usually) take on a distant/cupped/chesty sound, but the actual bass sounds soooo nice. Grrr! So I turn down the reference for vocal clarity and lose that nice bass boost.
Anyone have similar results?

Yes, it's a little bit of a dilemma. DEQ provides some boost at both the top end, and in the bass range, but that in turn, somewhat occludes the mid-range. Most vocals would be played more in that mid-range between about 250hz and 4500hz, which is in between where DEQ is boosting. I believe that may be one reason why some people turn up the center channel a little bit when they use DEQ for movies--so they can hear dialogue better. I don't know whether that would work as well for vocals in music, but you could try it.

Another thing that is probably contributing to the problem of somewhat occluded vocals is the fact that DEQ is boosting the surround speakers by 3db, which is a little more than 20%. Since most vocals, or instrument solos for that matter, will be coming from the center channel and the fronts, that makes the vocals a little less prominent by comparison. Some people try turning their surrounds down by 3db, either temporarily, or permanently. I actually enjoy the surround boost sometimes for movies with a lot of special effects, but it doesn't work well for me for music.

A third alternative would be to disable DEQ for music, and try adding bass manually using either your sub volume in your AVR and/or the tone controls. The tone controls would affect only your front speakers. When you re-engage DEQ for movies, for instance, the tone controls will be disabled. Turning DEQ off, will re-engage the tone controls at their previous setting. So, it's pretty easy to experiment, going back and forth, to discover what you like. If you simply want more bass while preserving mid-range clarity, this is an easy way to get it. You may also want to experiment with the Audyssey Flat setting. That is where I achieve the greatest clarity in my system. But then, you may also find the need to use the same tone controls to roll-off a little bit of treble, depending on how bright your room and speakers are. There is a lot of built-in user control in your AVR, and your Audyssey software, if you know where to look for it and don't mind experimenting.

I would be interested in knowing what you think after you experiment some more.

Regards,
Mike
Does your processor give you DEQ reference volume options? Mine has 0,-5,-10 and -15. 0 is full implementation. It descends from there. Gonna test them out further, but I think it will take some time to figure out which is best "for me".
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Does your processor give you DEQ reference volume options? Mine has 0,-5,-10 and -15. 0 is full implementation. It descends from there. Gonna test them out further, but I think it will take some time to figure out which is best "for me".
I also have a 7008, but all of the modern Audyssey AVR's have the same options. I typically listen to movies at about -20, or so. And I prefer a little DEQ boost rather than a lot. So, I normally use either -15, or -10. As you say, it will take a little time to figure out what you like. The nice thing about that is we can take all the time we want. Unfortunately, perhaps, I'm just not a set-it and forget-it type, so I may tweak things a little depending on what I'm listening to, and on my particular mood. If you are similar, then you will have a good time discovering what works "best for you", and then probably changing it from time to time.
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I ran calibration of a 3.0 system wirh two klipsch rf82II fronts which were set to full band and rc62ii was set to 40hz. Would this be best or ia 60 or 80 hz optimal? Not sure I notice a difference. Will adjusting on hz on the center take a little of the bass off the fronts or will it sound richer at 40hz center? What would be best

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If it's really a 3.0 system, there is no need to run a crossover for the center. That will just cut off the bottom. I'd run it Large and let it have its natural roll off.
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If it's really a 3.0 system, there is no need to run a crossover for the center. That will just cut off the bottom. I'd run it Large and let it have its natural roll off.
Hey, so the frots are large full band and i should switch the center from 40hz amd small to large also?

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And to confirm, switching a crossover wont effect auydessey will it
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Hey, so the frots are large full band and i should switch the center from 40hz amd small to large also?
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And to confirm, switching a crossover wont effect auydessey will it
If you don't have a subwoofer there is no need for crossovers. And no, it won't affect Audyssey.
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