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8M views 80K replies 3K participants last post by  Mike Lang 
#1 ·

I've been in several threads lately where the topic has been all about Audyssey and I've noted that there's not actually a thread specifically for it. There's one that seems to be about it, but it's titled as being about the Denon 3806. Audyssey, of course, exists in far more receivers than the 3806 nowadays, so I thought I'd throw a starter into the pool to see if people were interested in having one thread to discuss all Audyssey issues/comments/questions/stories/impressions that they've come up with from their personal receiver-experiences.


Myself, i was quite anti-Audyssey when I first came across it. My ears were quite used to what they'd had before which was very bass & treble heavy. Time has passed and I've really come to understand the strengths of Audyssey and respect the clean, flat signal that I now love and enjoy (and couldn't imagine being without). I'd love to hear from anyone else that wants to chime in or discuss issues.


Basic starter-links:


The Audyssey homepage .


The types of Audyssey implimentations in different receivers.



The Audyssey FAQ


The Audyssey setup guide


====

Audyssey tips:

Microphone Placement


The microphone has been calibrated for grazing incidence and so it must point to the ceiling during calibration. Any other orientation will produce incorrect results.


The microphone response has been calibrated to match (on average) the response of an industry-standard ¼ instrumentation microphone. It is critical to use the microphone that came with the receiver and not one from another model that may have a different calibration curve.


It is also important to place the microphone on a tripod or other stand so that it is at ear height. We strongly recommend against holding the microphone in your hand because this can give rise to low frequency handling noise that will cause the MultEQ filters to compensate by cutting those frequencies. Furthermore, it is not recommended to place the microphone on the back of the couch or recliner. If a tripod is used, care must be taken to ensure that the microphone is placed at a height just above the seat back so that reflections from the seat do not cause problems at higher frequencies.


The first microphone position is used to calculate the distances to each loudspeaker and subwoofer and set the delays. It is also used to measure and set the trims. So, it is important to place the microphone in the main listening seat for the first measurement.


MultEQ measures the background noise level in the room before playing the test signal from each speaker. For the measurements to be valid, the signal to noise ratio must be above a certain threshold. If it is not, the test signal from that speaker will repeat at a higher level. If the noise in the room happens to be higher during some of the speaker measurements, then the test signals from those speakers will sound louder than the test signals from the other speakers. This does not affect the calculation of trim levels. If the room noise is too high even after the test signals increase in level, then an error message will be displayed warning the user that measurements can not be completed.


After the first position is measured, MultEQ measures other positions in the room around the listening area. These do not necessarily have to be in each individual seat. The idea is to capture as many points around the listening area as possible so that the acoustical problems that affect the quality of sound within that area are minimized.


For example, we recommend taking 3 positions on the couch facing the TV and then 3 more positions about 3 feet in front of the couch and parallel to the first three. Measurements up against the back or side walls should be avoided.


Some loudspeakers have rather problematic responses when measured off-axis (i.e. more than 15° away from the imaginary straight line that points to the listening position). In these systems, measurements taken too far away from the center line will show a reduced high-frequency response that may result in overcorrection and thus overly bright sound. Although it is difficult to predict which type of loudspeaker will have these off-axis problems we have most often observed them in poorly-designed multiple-driver arrays that exhibit very high off-axis lobing. In these situations we recommend a tighter calibration pattern centered around the main listening position and making sure that the mic is not placed in extreme locations and certainly not outside the plane of the front main speakers.

Checking the Results


Once MultEQ calibration is complete the results are stored in the receiver memory.


It is important to activate MultEQ by selecting one of the target curves. This is not performed by default after the calibration is finished and must be selected by the user. In a THX system we recommend using the Flat setting that allows the re-equalization to work as intended. In other systems, we recommend Audyssey for movie playback and Flat for music playback. Unfortunately, the music industry does not have any mixing standards like the movie industry so some music program material may sound better with the Audyssey setting. Front Align also uses the Audyssey process, but it does not apply the filters to the two front loudspeakers. Manual is not an Audyssey setting and does not use MultEQ filters. It is a simple parametric equalizer and will be subject to all the limitations that come with parametric EQ.


Small vs. Large speakers. This is the most commonly discussed topic by MultEQ users. The first thing to understand is that it is not a personal insult to your system if your speakers were detected as Small. It simply means, that in the room they were measured the - 3 dB point was detected at 80 Hz or above. This may happen even if the manufacturer's spec shows that the speaker is capable of playing lower. In fact, there are several benefits at crossing the speakers over at 80 Hz that have to do with power handling and headroom in the bass region that will be handled by the subwoofer amplifier.


The second most common question also relates to Small vs. Large. In the Denon receivers, MultEQ will designate as Large any speaker that has a -3 dB point below 80 Hz. For non-THX speaker systems this is an arbitrary definition that often causes confusion. All it means is that the speaker will not be bass managed unless the user tells it to be. Because Audyssey is not in charge of bass management, we have to abide by the manufacturers' rules and simply report the information found by the measurements to the bass management system.


In situations where the speakers do not play significantly below 80 Hz, an additional step must be taken to make sure that there is no loss of bass information. The user must set the speaker to Small manually so that bass management is performed properly.


Polarity: MultEQ checks the absolute polarity of each loudspeaker and reports it to the user. This is simply a report and does not affect the subsequent calculations in any way. It just asks you to check the wiring to make sure it is connected properly to each speaker. Sometimes we get false alarms. This is usually because the speaker has a driver (usually the mid-range driver) wired out-of-phase intentionally to make up for some problems at the crossover region. If a phase warning is shown, it is not a cause of alarm. Simply check the cables and hit Skip if everything is fine. Again, this does not have any effect on the EQ results.


Subwoofer distance: in many active subwoofers it is not possible to defeat the low-pass filtering. That means that the pre-pro bass management filters will be on top of the low-pass filters inside the subwoofer. The built-in low-filters introduce a delay to the signal coming in (because they have poles). This delay is seen by MultEQ as acoustical delay and is reported in the results. That is why sometimes the subwoofer distance is reported to be longer than the physical measured distance. The setting should not be changed because the blend between the sub and the satellites has been designed based on this time delay.


The design constraints for MultEQ were that it (1) must fit within a small portion of the DSP so that other processes can also run and (2) it must use FIR filters because of the well-known artifacts that IIR filters cause particularly in the time domain response. As it turns out, these two requirements are contradicting. In order for FIR filters to be effective and capable of correcting to low frequencies, they must consist of several thousand coefficients (taps). The problem is that the CPU power required increases with the number of taps, hence the dilemma. What we did at Audyssey was to come up with a different way to partition the frequency axis so that we can use fewer taps and yet not completely give up on low frequency resolution (and therefore low frequency correction). This allows us to take a 512 tap filter that would normally have a resolution of 94 Hz (meaning that any peak or dip narrower than 94 Hz would be missed) and significantly improve its resolving power. The resolution of the filter actually varies continuously with frequency and starts at around 10 Hz. Does this mean that MultEQ can correct an arbitrarily narrow peak or dip at 30 Hz? Of course not. The reality is that in the MultEQ XT version found in receivers, we can correct broader features below 100 Hz better than narrow ones. For example, a lump that is half an octave wide at 50 Hz can be fixed. A narrow dip or peak that is 1/3 or 1/6 octaves wide and centered at 30 Hz will be improved, but not eliminated.


The on-screen display in the receiver has very limited graphics. Therefore it is not possible to really show what the MultEQ correction filter is doing at all frequencies. It appears to only be operating on 9 bands like a parametric equalizer, but this is not the case. What is shown is a very crude approximation to the MultEQ correction and it should not be used to read exact values of cut or boost at the 9 frequencies shown.


Furthermore, there is no display for the subwoofer filter. This doesn't mean that there is no subwoofer correction. It was not added to the display because of interface and memory considerations.


(tips by Chris, CTO, Audyssey Laboratories)
 
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#52,001 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cal516 /forum/post/21802294


OFF TOPIC


I read AVS using their iPad app. I can see & use embedded links in the text of various posts, including these terrific FAQ links (thanks very much). That said, I cannot use the links people embed in signatures. When I select one, a new window opens with the post I was reading sans the signature block. Any thoughts (besides dumping the iPad)?


Maybe this is not off topic after all, maybe all FAQs should address hyperlinking questions?

Yes, I've noticed this too. I guess it's a bug in the iPad App. I like the App - it's a pretty neat way to browser AVS but it does have some limitations. There's no way around this AFAIK - you could always browse AVS in iPad's version of Safari of course, and then the links all work, but it's not as pleasant an experience that way I agree.
 
#52,002 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by notnyt /forum/post/21801515


Except it kind of sucks with XT32 from what I'm seeing.


Your setup is hugely, visually impressive and I am consumed with admiration for the work you have put in to it.


But it such an unusual setup that maybe it just isn't working well with Audyssey XT32 for some reason.


As you do seem to have achieved a flat bass response anyway, regardless of CT32, why worry? Just enjoy!


One of your many photos attached in case others didn't follow your sig links. (I'd recommend that people do though - it's an interesting ride.)
 
#52,003 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by notnyt /forum/post/21801515


Except it kind of sucks with XT32 from what I'm seeing...I had better results with standard XT, displayed in the third graph...
Quote:
Originally Posted by kbarnes701 /forum/post/21802360


Your setup is hugely, visually impressive and I am consumed with admiration for the work you have put in to it.

But it such an unusual setup that maybe it just isn't working well with Audyssey XT32 for some reason...

I hope others with upgraded 5308s do some measuring and checking because something looks wrong here. AVP-A1 owners are reporting great, improved bass with the upgrade. There is a possibility he's found a FW bug in the 5308.
 
#52,004 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by kbarnes701 /forum/post/0


FAQ updated.


A couple of additional questions and one or two answers edited to include more, or better, information.


Coming soon:


What is THX Reference Level?


Reference versus Preference?


What is Re-Eq and should it be on or off?


Which curve should I use - Movies or Music / Reference or Flat?

Keith, several of these topics are Onkyo-specific. Will you identify these as such? I'm not sure if there are any Denon-specific topics that should be included in an Audyssey FAQ--can't think of any offhand.
 
#52,005 ·
Keith, would it be useful to put in something about the dialogue normalization setting and how that interacts with DynEQ?
 
#52,006 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cal516 /forum/post/0


OFF TOPIC


I read AVS using their iPad app. I can see & use embedded links in the text of various posts, including these terrific FAQ links (thanks very much). That said, I cannot use the links people embed in signatures. When I select one, a new window opens with the post I was reading sans the signature block. Any thoughts (besides dumping the iPad)?


Maybe this is not off topic after all, maybe all FAQs should address hyperlinking questions?

I use the APP as well with the same issue. There's a thread concerning the APP that you can post to. If enough of us complain, maybe it will get fixed.
 
#52,007 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by AustinJerry /forum/post/21802567


Keith, several of these topics are Onkyo-specific. Will you identify these as such? I'm not sure if there are any Denon-specific topics that should be included in an Audyssey FAQ--can't think of any offhand.

Hi AJ - I am being slow today - which topics are Onkyo-specific?
 
#52,008 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by pbarach /forum/post/21802588


Keith, would it be useful to put in something about the dialogue normalization setting and how that interacts with DynEQ?

It sure would. But I don't think I know enough about it to do it myself. Could you (or anyone) give me the gist of it? Thanks.
 
#52,009 ·
I also would like to know how why pro xover decisions for the mains affect the xover decision for the center. Then how do these affect center dialogue.
 
#52,010 ·
Originally Posted by AustinJerry

Keith, several of these topics are Onkyo-specific. Will you identify these as such? I'm not sure if there are any Denon-specific topics that should be included in an Audyssey FAQ--can't think of any offhand.


Hi AJ - I am being slow today - which topics are Onkyo-specific?



Hi Keith - Not AJ - but the following are Onkyo specific:

THX Reference

Re-EQ
 
#52,011 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by kbarnes701 /forum/post/0



Yes, I've noticed this too. I guess it's a bug in the iPad App. I like the App - it's a pretty neat way to browser AVS but it does have some limitations. There's no way around this AFAIK - you could always browse AVS in iPad's version of Safari of course, and then the links all work, but it's not as pleasant an experience that way I agree.

I also find it a bit problematic when I switch between 3G and Wifi--if Wifi gets out of range or weak, I have to kill the AVS app and login again to make the app responsive. That's why I often use the Safari browser when I write answers.
 
#52,012 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by ggsantafe /forum/post/21802913

Originally Posted by AustinJerry

Keith, several of these topics are Onkyo-specific. Will you identify these as such? I'm not sure if there are any Denon-specific topics that should be included in an Audyssey FAQ--can't think of any offhand.


Hi AJ - I am being slow today - which topics are Onkyo-specific?



Hi Keith - Not AJ - but the following are Onkyo specific:

THX Reference

Re-EQ

I'm still being slow, sorry. THX Reference is 'reference' AIUI - the standard which calls for average SPLs of 85db with 20db of headroom for a maximum per-channel SPL of 105db in the satellites (+10db for a maximum of 115db for the LFE channel). That's what the answer was meant to explain.


WRT to Re-EQ, this is a THX setting isn’t it and thus surely all THX AVRs of any make will either have a way to enable/disable RE-Eq or to do it automatically? If it user-configurable, then some people are confused about whether it should be engaged when using Audyssey reference/movie curve (A: no) or when using Audyssey Flat/Music curve.


Where these things *are* product specific I guess is where a unit doesn’t have THX certification, in which case it won't have any THX modes. But reference will still be reference wrt to the Audyssey calibration.


Please correct me if I am wrong - I haven't written those FAQs yet. It's important to get this right because I am trying to make the FAQ non-product-specific. Where this isn’t possible, it will annotated as such ("applies to Onkyo/Denon/Etc only"). My Denon knowledge is, unfortunately, zero as I have never owned a Denon AVR, so I will need guidance from the Members there (but I do have one of their excellent small systems in the guest bedroom).
 
#52,013 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by sdrucker /forum/post/21802965


I also find it a bit problematic when I switch between 3G and Wifi--if Wifi gets out of range or weak, I have to kill the AVS app and login again to make the app responsive. That's why I often use the Safari browser when I write answers.

I tend to use the App for reading the threads but generally use a proper computer/keyboard for replying.
 
#52,014 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gooddoc /forum/post/21801894


Yea, that pretty much blows. You said you just upgraded via firmware to XT32? Or is this a new AVR?


Given the number of firmware problems I've seen over time, it wouldn't surprise me if this was one of those issues. No one else with a problem in the AVR thread?

Denon released a hardware/firmware upgrade for the 5308. That is all that changed. in my setup, so XT to XT32 here.
 
#52,015 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by kbarnes701 /forum/post/21802360


Your setup is hugely, visually impressive and I am consumed with admiration for the work you have put in to it.


But it such an unusual setup that maybe it just isn't working well with Audyssey XT32 for some reason.


As you do seem to have achieved a flat bass response anyway, regardless of CT32, why worry? Just enjoy!


One of your many photos attached in case others didn't follow your sig links. (I'd recommend that people do though - it's an interesting ride.)

Thanks for the compliments, but the LF response curve here is not really unusual. It looks like any other sealed enclosure response as far as Audyssey is concerned. XT did a better job on the sub. I reran XT32 multiple times to make sure it wasn't a bad run or something, and saw the same results. Anyway, I EQ'd it flat with my MiniDSP then let XT32 rip, so all is happy now, but it is odd that it was unable to do this when standard XT did it better. I'm assuming there are changes in XT32 to prevent it from boosting the low end so protect peoples subs. Ah well, such is life. On the bright side, it does way better for the channels I don't have externally EQ'd.


This is my final response, you can ignore the HF rolloff as I used a mic that isn't good in that range to measure.

 
#52,016 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by kbarnes701 /forum/post/21802996


I'm still being slow, sorry. THX Reference is 'reference' AIUI - the standard which calls for average SPLs of 85db with 20db of headroom for a maximum per-channel SPL of 105db in the satellites (+10db for a maximum of 115db for the LFE channel). That's what the answer was meant to explain.


WRT to Re-EQ, this is a THX setting isn’t it and thus surely all THX AVRs of any make will either have a way to enable/disable RE-Eq or to do it automatically? If it user-configurable, then some people are confused about whether it should be engaged when using Audyssey reference/movie curve (A: no) or when using Audyssey Flat/Music curve.


Where these things *are* product specific I guess is where a unit doesn’t have THX certification, in which case it won't have any THX modes. But reference will still be reference wrt to the Audyssey calibration.


Please correct me if I am wrong - I haven't written those FAQs yet. It's important to get this right because I am trying to make the FAQ non-product-specific. Where this isn’t possible, it will annotated as such ("applies to Onkyo/Denon/Etc only"). My Denon knowledge is, unfortunately, zero as I have never owned a Denon AVR, so I will need guidance from the Members there (but I do have one of their excellent small systems in the guest bedroom).

Denon's are not THX certified, so there is no mention in the Denon Owner manual of THX settings. Likewise there is also no mention of the Re-EQ offset for Denon owners. Just pointing out what Austin Jerry was referring to in his post about Onkyo specific terminology, not trying to debate the concept of THX reference
 
#52,017 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by notnyt /forum/post/21803096


Thanks for the compliments, but the LF response curve here is not really unusual. It looks like any other sealed enclosure response as far as Audyssey is concerned. XT did a better job on the sub. I reran XT32 multiple times to make sure it wasn't a bad run or something, and saw the same results. Anyway, I EQ'd it flat with my MiniDSP then let XT32 rip, so all is happy now, but it is odd that it was unable to do this when standard XT did it better. I'm assuming there are changes in XT32 to prevent it from boosting the low end so protect peoples subs. Ah well, such is life. On the bright side, it does way better for the channels I don't have externally EQ'd.

It is very odd. XT32 is far more capable in the bass region than XT so you'd expect the results to be the other way around. Unless there's a bug in the FW update as SoM suggests - but that would also be reported by others I guess. Still, the end result you have achieved is great, so who cares really how you got there (other than for academic interest)?
 
#52,018 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by ggsantafe /forum/post/21803165


Denon's are not THX certified, so there is no mention in the Denon Owner manual of THX settings. Likewise there is also no mention of the Re-EQ offset for Denon owners. Just pointing out what Austin Jerry was referring to in his post about Onkyo specific terminology, not trying to debate the concept of THX reference

The flagship models, Denon 5308CI and AVP are both THX Ultra2 certified. Both use Audyssey XT and can be upgraded to XT32.
 
#52,019 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by ggsantafe /forum/post/21803165


Denon's are not THX certified, so there is no mention in the Denon Owner manual of THX settings. Likewise there is also no mention of the Re-EQ offset for Denon owners. Just pointing out what Austin Jerry was referring to in his post about Onkyo specific terminology, not trying to debate the concept of THX reference

OK thanks - for clarification, Denon AVRs don't have DSP modes then such as THX Cinema? EDIT: I just checked - a couple do but I am surprised to discover that most don't, including my 'favourite', the 4311. I spotted something called 'Cinema EQ' in the specs which I take to be Denon's own version of RE-Eq or something like it.


Do Denons have user-selectable Audyssey Reference or Flat curves, like the latest Onkyo's Audyssey Movie/Music curves? If they have a user-selectable Reference curve then that already has the HF rollof, so without any THX modes, I can't quite see the purpose of Cinema EQ. On the Onkyos if you select Movie (Reference) then RE-Eq needs to be off of course. If you select Music (Flat) then RE-Eq needs to be enabled if you use a THX mode. Some units don't give you the choice of user-selectable curves so all this happens 'behind the scenes'. No wonder people get confused



Whether they are THX certified or not, of course, they will still use Audyssey with the prime objective of Audyssey which is to set a system up so that at 0dB on the MV it is playing at THX Reference level. I can’t see how that is AVR-specific (assuming the AVR has Audyssey MultEQ). Maybe it's best to delete the reference to THX and call it just 'Reference Level' - that way nobody with a Denon can be confused into thinking it doesn't apply to them.
 
#52,020 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by jdsmoothie /forum/post/21803314


The flagship models, Denon 5308CI and AVP are both THX Ultra2 certified. Both use Audyssey XT and can be upgraded to XT32.

Here are some flavors of THX certification:

THX Ultra2



THX Ultra2 Certified products bring the cinematic experience to larger home theaters, 3,000 cubic feet in size, with a viewing distance of 12 feet or greater from the screen.

THX Select2



THX Select2 Certified products are for medium sized rooms, up to 2,000 cubic feet in size, with a 10-12 foot viewing distance from the screen.

THX I/S Plus Systems



Certified Systems (AV Receiver + Speaker Bundle) have the power to fill a small home theater or dorm room where the viewing distance from the screen is 6-8 feet.

THX Certified Multimedia Products



THX Certified Multimedia Products are designed and engineered for PC gaming and multimedia on the desktop.





For more info here's where they are hiding on the Net: www.thx.com
 
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