"Official" Audyssey thread (FAQ in post #51779) - Page 2638 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #79111 of 79129 Old Yesterday, 01:14 PM
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I found that I could intentionally cause over-brightness with my measurement mic positions. If I got too far off vertically of my M&K S150 spkrs' 0-axis, my sound was too bright as Audyssey tried to compensate for the HF output falloff.

I recommend everyone familiarize themselves with the dispersion characteristics of their speakers. And first thing is to AIM them to evenly cover their seating area. Then do the calibration.

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post #79112 of 79129 Old Yesterday, 01:32 PM
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Originally Posted by pepar View Post
I recommend everyone familiarize themselves with the dispersion characteristics of their speakers. And first thing is to AIM them to evenly cover their seating area. Then do the calibration.

Jeff
Hey Jeff, how would one do that with bi-pole/di-pole surrounds that are designed to have the null facing the MLP?

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post #79113 of 79129 Old Yesterday, 01:41 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pepar View Post
I recommend everyone familiarize themselves with the dispersion characteristics of their speakers. And first thing is to AIM them to evenly cover their seating area. Then do the calibration.

Jeff
Hey Jeff, how would one do that with bi-pole/di-pole surrounds that are designed to have the null facing the MLP?
Ahh, when my side surrounds were set for dipole I pointed the null. I would guess Audyssey still boosted the highs but the sound reaching listeners was diffusive so not a problem. Once I set the to be tripoles, I made sure that they properly covered the listeners.
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post #79114 of 79129 Old Yesterday, 02:23 PM
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Originally Posted by CBdicX View Post
Surround Back or not ?
Hi, maybe not the correct thread but Audyssey plays also a part ;-)

I have now a test setup 5.0.4, after taking down the .4 i feel i miss out on some effects that are pressent with the .4 setup !
So even its just a test setup for the immersive side for now, its going to stay

But now the question.
I need to have my surround speakers (Klipsch RP250S) on the back wall, 2 meter behinde the MLP.
There is a 2.70 meter space between the 2 Bi-pole's so i could fit 2 surround back speakers on the back wall also, Klipsch RP 150M could do that job.
Will adding the 150M give any surround back "feeling", or will the 150M be pushed out by the 250S ?
In the pic you see the 250S and the white LP where left and right of the LP the 150M would be.

Other option would be 4x 150M (same distance appart) so it will be more direct fire ?
Or just forget the surround back in this setup ?

Thanks.....

Hi,

I may be misunderstanding what you said, but it sounds as if you are re-positioning your surround speakers, which would normally be out to the side, to the back wall. If that is not correct, then the third paragraph won't be applicable. (I'm not thinking ahead. I added this part after re-reading your statement about a 5.1.4 system. )

Some of the other members have more experience with bi-pole speakers than I do, but I am a little skeptical that putting the bi-pole and direct firing speakers on the same wall, relatively close together, would sound very good. It seems to me that one option might be to mount a pair of direct firing speakers down closer to ear level, and use the bi-poles up near the ceiling, either in the front or the back, as height speakers.

I see the window in your photo, but is there no way to have your surround speakers more out to the side--perhaps on a bracket suspended from the ceiling? If you could get your surround speakers, a little forward of the listening position, and out to the side, the rear surrounds might then work better. Again, if I misinterpreted what you are saying, just disregard this part.

Regards,
Mike
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post #79115 of 79129 Old Yesterday, 02:35 PM
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Originally Posted by mthomas47 View Post
Hi,

I may be misunderstanding what you said, but it sounds as if you are re-positioning your surround speakers, which would normally be out to the side, to the back wall. If that is not correct, then the third paragraph won't be applicable. (I'm not thinking ahead. I added this part after re-reading your statement about a 5.1.4 system. )

Some of the other members have more experience with bi-pole speakers than I do, but I am a little skeptical that putting the bi-pole and direct firing speakers on the same wall, relatively close together, would sound very good. It seems to me that one option might be to mount a pair of direct firing speakers down closer to ear level, and use the bi-poles up near the ceiling, either in the front or the back, as height speakers.

I see the window in your photo, but is there no way to have your surround speakers more out to the side--perhaps on a bracket suspended from the ceiling? If you could get your surround speakers, a little forward of the listening position, and out to the side, the rear surrounds might then work better. Again, if I misinterpreted what you are saying, just disregard this part.

Regards,
Mike
Hi, thanks for your reply :-)


It is not possible to have the Bi-poles beside the MLP !
I am looking to use also surround back, so the options i have is:
2x Bi-pole and 2x Direct fire (beside the white LP in the middle)
or
4x Direct Fire
or just use 2x Bi-pole and forget surround back.......


The 2 near the ceiling are Height speakers, they can not be moved as you can understand.

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post #79116 of 79129 Old Yesterday, 02:40 PM
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... I have always found it a little interesting that industry professionals sometimes draw such sharp lines in the sand, with respect to how to deal with in-room frequency response. Their positions include: a minimum of 3 (no, it's 4) subs (and they sometimes disagree sharply on how the subs should be configured), with no bass traps, or other acoustic treatments, or automated EQ; bass traps, and other acoustic treatments in lieu of multiple subs, either with, or without room EQ; and so on. We should always treat first reflections, or we should never treat first reflections, with no middle ground. This isn't the only branch of science, or professional endeavor, where opinions are so sharply divided, but it makes for a pretty confusing mess for AV hobbyists.

I think that all we can do is try things to find out what works for us in our individual systems and rooms. We kind of have to pick our poison. Not everyone will have the interest in investing time and effort (or money) in room treatments, or in multiple subs. And particularly not in three or four subs. For me, automated room EQ is just one more tool in the tool box, and a pretty simple one compared to some of the elaborate lengths that some of the industry professionals go to in order to achieve good sound. But whether room EQ works well in a particular situation is an entirely different question. For me, it does ...
+ + + +

Agree totally --- and I'm astounded by the number of knowledgeable audiophiles on other threads who complain that Audyssey did not work for them, but don't seem to read Audyssey 101 or the FAQ, even when we link it for them. Maybe they're just exhausted from reading their AVR or pre/pro manuals, most of which are poorly written and cluttered with errata.
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post #79117 of 79129 Old Yesterday, 02:43 PM
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Hey Mike, enjoyed your post (I shortened the quote to save space). I just stumbled onto that video a few days ago, and somehow missed it all this time.

The reason I stumbled across it is because I still find my system sounds better with XT off, and just my AntiMode controlling my sub, everything X-over at 100hz and a few cuts with my manual EQ. (my sub is in the front left corner of the room, and I can not detect where it is even with an extreme 200hz x-over and test tones)

I was able to get rid of *most* of my XT harshness, but my imaging feels "pointy and one dimensional" while playing music....... No depth, unable to close my eyes and 'see' where the instruments/vocalist is located and the midrange is 'forward and in my face'......... I admittedly don't have the vocabulary to express what I hear like a pro would, but hopefully you can at least get an idea of what I hear with XT on.

As soon as I turn XT off, the stereo imaging widens immensely as does the 'depth' of the music. My L/R towers sound fantastic in stereo, as does my entire system with movies.

I have bi-pole surrounds with the null pointed at the MLP, and after watching that video I now believe that XT "sees" them during calibration as needing massive treble boost, and by looking at the crude EQ comparison results in my AVR, I am right as both surrounds show a 7-10db boost from, 4K on up to 20K......... With XT engaged my surrounds always sound thin, sharp and gnarly which I usually "tame" by reducing their trim by 2-3db from what Audyssey (and my SPL meter) found.

XT isn't totally useless for me as I used its SPL levels and speaker delays (especially the sub distance with my AntiMode), as well as showing me that a -3db cut @ 250hz and -2db @ 500hz for my surrounds is needed via the manual EQ do to their placement, and that made a huge difference in the overall soundfield.

Thanks for the well thought out reply!

You are very welcome, and I am sorry that you are having problems again. It was just a few weeks ago that you were saying something like: "Damn my system sounds good!" So, damn!

I have experienced having Audyssey over-boost my treble. In my case, that problem didn't go away until I crossed the tweeters in my main speakers just in front of my listening position. I hope Pepar's advice is helpful, because I have no idea what would be the best way to point your bi-pole speakers to keep Audyssey from boosting them.

The soundstage issues you are describing are another matter entirely. When you say stereo image, do you mean that you are playing your system in two-channel mode (plus sub) at that point? If so, then that can't be related to your bi-pole issues.

When you were saying a while back that your system sounded the best it ever had, were you talking about movies, music, or both? If it sounds good with Audyssey engaged for movies, and not as good for music, I would just turn Audyssey on and off, accordingly.

I hope you can reach some kind of accommodation with Audyssey, as I know it's been kind of a love/hate relationship (that sounds like a marriage ). But, if not, that sort of demonstrates the idea expressed earlier, that no automated solution can possibly work equally well for every situation.
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post #79118 of 79129 Old Yesterday, 02:47 PM
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A third of the page count on this thread are folks not searching the thread, not reading the first post, etc. Instead they popped in, MAYBE lamely apologized and then asked their question. I once saw a question that was answered in the post JUST BEFORE theirs. I lost it.
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post #79119 of 79129 Old Yesterday, 02:56 PM
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Originally Posted by CBdicX View Post
Hi, thanks for your reply :-)


It is not possible to have the Bi-poles beside the MLP !
I am looking to use also surround back, so the options i have is:
2x Bi-pole and 2x Direct fire (beside the white LP in the middle)
or
4x Direct Fire
or just use 2x Bi-pole and forget surround back.......


The 2 near the ceiling are Height speakers, they can not be moved as you can understand.

You are welcome, but I don't know that my answer was very helpful. Looking at you photo again, those bi-pole speakers are awfully close to your listening position. Does that work well? I am still inclined to think that less is more, here, but someone else may have some better ideas. I would probably experiment to see whether two direct firing speakers, or two bi-poles, would work better near ear level as surrounds. But I probably wouldn't try to use more than two speakers, plus the existing heights, in any case.

Have you experimented yet to find out whether the direct firing speakers sound better or worse in that position than the bi-poles?

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post #79120 of 79129 Old Yesterday, 03:03 PM
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... In my case, that problem didn't go away until I crossed the tweeters in my main speakers just in front of my listening position ...
My tweeter lines cross in front of my listening position as well. I may be wrong, but I think that J. Gordon Holt, the original owner/editor/reviewer of Stereophile, found that arrangement worked well for him. As some of you know, Audyssey works well for me, is not over bright, and needs only the usual sub boost, plus a bass control boost to the LF & RF, on some recordings.
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post #79121 of 79129 Old Yesterday, 03:14 PM
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Originally Posted by pepar View Post
A third of the page count on this thread are folks not searching the thread, not reading the first post, etc. Instead they popped in, MAYBE lamely apologized and then asked their question. I once saw a question that was answered in the post JUST BEFORE theirs. I lost it.
Seems on-line forums are not for everyone!
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post #79122 of 79129 Old Yesterday, 03:15 PM
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My tweeter lines cross in front of my listening position as well. I may be wrong, but I think that J. Gordon Holt, the original owner/editor/reviewer of Stereophile, found that arrangement worked well for him. As some of you know, Audyssey works well for me, is not over bright, and needs only the usual sub boost, plus a bass control boost to the LF & RF, on some recordings.

Hi Gary,

I probably trust your memory better than my own for some of this, but I also recall Kal Rubinson saying once that, in his experience, most speakers sound better with the tweeters crossing about a foot (?) in front of the listening position.
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post #79123 of 79129 Old Yesterday, 03:22 PM
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You are welcome, but I don't know that my answer was very helpful. Looking at you photo again, those bi-pole speakers are awfully close to your listening position. Does that work well? I am still inclined to think that less is more, here, but someone else may have some better ideas. I would probably experiment to see whether two direct firing speakers, or two bi-poles, would work better near ear level as surrounds. But I probably wouldn't try to use more than two speakers, plus the existing heights, in any case.

Have you experimented yet to find out whether the direct firing speakers sound better or worse in that position than the bi-poles?
Its 2.5 meter from MLP (the black sofa) to the back wall, so not to bad.
I have now 2 direct fire (small satelites) and this sounds ok.
Bi-pole gave a bit more space feeling as they also bounce from the side wall and windows.

My "feeling" as direct fire is working, that maybe 4x Direct fire will work better then 2x Bi-pole and 2x Direct fire.
I was hoping that someone here had experians in that specific setup, what would a better choice be.
Go 4x Direct or the Bi-pole / Direct mix ?
Lets see, maybe he (or she) will pop up.......
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post #79124 of 79129 Old Yesterday, 03:53 PM
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Its 2.5 meter from MLP (the black sofa) to the back wall, so not to bad.
I have now 2 direct fire (small satelites) and this sounds ok.
Bi-pole gave a bit more space feeling as they also bounce from the side wall and windows.

My "feeling" as direct fire is working, that maybe 4x Direct fire will work better then 2x Bi-pole and 2x Direct fire.
I was hoping that someone here had experians in that specific setup, what would a better choice be.
Go 4x Direct or the Bi-pole / Direct mix ?
Lets see, maybe he (or she) will pop up.......

You might want to post your question in the Atmos home theater thread. There are some very diverse systems represented there.
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post #79125 of 79129 Old Yesterday, 04:03 PM
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Hi Gary,

I probably trust your memory better than my own for some of this, but I also recall Kal Rubinson saying once that, in his experience, most speakers sound better with the tweeters crossing about a foot (?) in front of the listening position.
Not sure. I've heard all three -- crossing behind, crossing in front, aimed right at the MLP. It may depend on the room, other (imponderable?) factors, or it may just amount to differences in doctrine.
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post #79126 of 79129 Old Yesterday, 04:31 PM
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You are very welcome, and I am sorry that you are having problems again. It was just a few weeks ago that you were saying something like: "Damn my system sounds good!" So, damn!

I know! I ended up hitting the Audyssey Off button, and that started it all again.

I have experienced having Audyssey over-boost my treble. In my case, that problem didn't go away until I crossed the tweeters in my main speakers just in front of my listening position. I hope Pepar's advice is helpful, because I have no idea what would be the best way to point your bi-pole speakers to keep Audyssey from boosting them.

I don't see that there is anything I can do? I've been looking at any option the last couple of hours, and there are none.

The soundstage issues you are describing are another matter entirely. When you say stereo image, do you mean that you are playing your system in two-channel mode (plus sub) at that point? If so, then that can't be related to your bi-pole issues.

Correct, when referring to image, I was talking about good ole' 2-channel PCM played back via Stereo which includes my sub, trim & delay settings as well as x-over settings........ Then I just sort of meandered back to the surrounds to describe me being *almost" happy with the system's total harshness.

When you were saying a while back that your system sounded the best it ever had, were you talking about movies, music, or both? If it sounds good with Audyssey engaged for movies, and not as good for music, I would just turn Audyssey on and off, accordingly.

I was talking about movies entirely, as we had a good run of movie nights........ Then, even though I told myself I wouldn't, I did some A/B-ing with several movie scenes that I know like the back of my hand, and that's when it became apparent again that to me, Audyssey Off sounded much better.

I hope you can reach some kind of accommodation with Audyssey, as I know it's been kind of a love/hate relationship (that sounds like a marriage ). But, if not, that sort of demonstrates the idea expressed earlier, that no automated solution can possibly work equally well for every situation.

Agreed! I'm pretty well out of ideas on anything that I could do different during the calibration that would suddenly hit it out of the park, and honestly I'm a bit over it anyway. I guess the answer is an easy one for me, and that's to set it up how it sounds best to me, just like I did back in the scary, dark, mid evil days before auto EQ. (with the exception of my AntiMode that is)

Great talk Mike, always enjoy it as you seem to always see both sides and you have good suggestions.
Replied in quote ^
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Replied in quote ^
Glad to see your progress with Audyssey D Bone. One thing is constant: changes of opinion. This pun was intended. Nah, just kidding!

Take care and be well!
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post #79128 of 79129 Old Yesterday, 07:03 PM
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Replied in quote ^

That was a very nice compliment. Thank you! It was nice to talk with you, as well. I just like it better when you are happy with your audio system.

I was thinking about something earlier that might be worth mentioning. My system doesn't sound the same to me all the time, either. I have heard some other people say the same thing, although we may be in the minority. I hope so, anyway. Most of the time, my system sounds great, but sometimes, Meh. That has something to do with the quality of the recordings I'm listening to, but it also has a lot to do with the way my brain happens to interpret what I am hearing. And that definitely is not a constant.

I have no idea what all the variables might be which determine our psycho-acoustic preferences at any given moment, but there have to be a lot of them. If you think about it, not all foods taste the same on any given day. If you wanted to, you could think of analogies to all five of the senses. Where I am going with this, is that all joking aside, you may simply experience even more variability with your hearing, and with the way your brain interprets what you hear, than most people do. That wouldn't be too implausible. There is a bell curve for virtually any human attribute.

So don't be too surprised, if at some point in the future, Audyssey starts to sound pretty good to you again. Just ride the wave wherever it takes you, and make whatever changes to your system you need to make. On days when something doesn't sound quite right to me, I tweak things until it sounds better. And the next day, I may prefer it the way it was before, and I will set it back that way. From things that Gary G. has said, I believe that he may experience something similar, although I don't mean to speak for him.

I don't think that I experience quite as much swing in sound from day-to-day as you do, and my issues don't seem to be Audyssey-related. But FWIW, I don't think you are entirely alone in this, or just being fickle. Well, not entirely so, anyway.

Regards,
Mike
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... My system doesn't sound the same to me all the time, either. I have heard some other people say the same thing, although we may be in the minority. I hope so, anyway. Most of the time, my system sounds great, but sometimes, Meh ... it also has a lot to do with the way my brain happens to interpret what I am hearing. And that definitely is not a constant.

I have no idea what all the variables might be which determine our psycho-acoustic preferences at any given moment, but there have to be a lot of them. If you think about it, not all foods taste the same on any given day ...

On days when something doesn't sound quite right to me, I tweak things until it sounds better. And the next day, I may prefer it the way it was before, and I will set it back that way. From things that Gary G. has said, I believe that he may experience something similar, although I don't mean to speak for him.
...
[I edited the above quote for length]

Yes, my sound system occasionally sounds different even when playing the same recording.

Two of Berlyne's variables that affect cortical arousal in the brain are loudness and complexity. So the playback SPL may make a difference, and, to me, anyway, most recordings sound more complex (in a good way) when I'm closer to the speakers, especially recordings of a large orchestra. Paradoxically, the imaging is better when the tweeter lines cross in front of me, but the complexity seems to be higher when the tweeter lines cross in back of me. Once in a while, I move closer for some 2 channel music, but stay in the MLP for movies or SACD surround sound. Also, variations in cortical arousal affect the sense of time (and perhaps rhythm). Have you ever been in an auto crash in which time seems to switch into slow motion?

Books: Aesthetics and Psychobiology by Berlyne, and The Psychology of Time by Ornstein

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