"Official" Audyssey thread (FAQ in post #51779) - Page 2639 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #79141 of 79165 Old 02-06-2016, 06:19 PM
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Originally Posted by mogorf View Post
I don't remember that discussion Mike, but from the engineer's side with solid stage devices the heat build-up (aka warming) should have no effect on SQ. Its just a by-product called dissipation a design engineer needs to carefully take care of during circuit design. Propoerly sized heat-sinks and sometimes additional cooling fans come to mind.

But again, I think it would be a kinda miracle if anyone even with "golden ears" could hear a difference from minute one to an hour long (or even more) operation that could be accounted to this issue, only. Same though goes for power supplies, coz there is nothing "inside" that needs to reach "operational" temperate that would result in better performance.

Thanks, Feri. It's possible that I only imagined that discussion taking place on the thread. I'm capable of that. I did read a discussion of that, in reference to Audyssey, somewhere several years ago, and as I said the consensus was, as you and Selden are suggesting, that it wouldn't really make any difference. I do like your idea of warming-up the filters, though, for maximum efficiency.
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post #79142 of 79165 Old 02-06-2016, 06:21 PM
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Originally Posted by Selden Ball View Post
Sorry, I have not the slightest idea. One way to find out would be to use a thermometer or other temperature reading device and see how long it takes for the unit to reach a steady temperature. Personally, I've never actually worried about it. My ears are old enough that I don't expect to hear much of a difference.
Let's not forget to specify the MV setting, the type of program material being played, or even a continuous sine wave played for any extended period. And there's the variation of altitude above sea level of our HT rooms, relative humidity, or the inapropriate case when using a non-calibrated thermometer.
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post #79143 of 79165 Old 02-06-2016, 06:22 PM
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Originally Posted by aaranddeeman View Post
I know. But by giving warmup time, we may or may not gain anything, but will certainly will not lose anything.
So true!
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post #79144 of 79165 Old 02-06-2016, 06:30 PM
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Originally Posted by mogorf View Post
So true!

If nothing else, Gary and I managed to stimulate some interesting discussion. The next time it gets slow around here, I'm going to tell everybody about the special power cords I'm planning to buy (not).

That will bring the engineers out in droves.
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post #79145 of 79165 Old 02-06-2016, 06:40 PM
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Originally Posted by mthomas47 View Post
If nothing else, Gary and I managed to stimulate some interesting discussion. The next time it gets slow around here, I'm going to tell everybody about the special power cords I'm planning to buy (not).

That will bring the engineers out in droves.
Power cords also need break-in Mike, so please watch our for your next purchase (or not)!
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Last edited by mogorf; 02-06-2016 at 06:48 PM.
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post #79146 of 79165 Old 02-07-2016, 12:29 AM
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After sitting back and going through quite a bit of the "Audyssey 101" documentation, and playing around a little, I ran another calibration. Making a little forward progress:

My set-up (5.1 speaker configuration):
Monitor Audio Gold GX100 fronts (42Hz - 60kHz, sensitivity = 88dB 1W@1m)
Monitor Audio Gold GXC350 center (40Hz - 60kHz, sensitivity = 90dB 1W@1m)
Monitor Audio GSFX Gold surrounds (60Hz - 43kHz, sensitivity = 86dB 1W@1m)

Parasound A51 amp
JL Audio F110 sub

Speaker Calibration Details:
Distances
Front L (10.2ft)
Front R (10.4ft)
Center (10.0ft)
Subwoofer 1 (14.7ft)
Surround L (6.4ft)
Surround R (7.4ft)

Speaker Calibration Details:
Level
Front L (-10.5dB)
Front R (-11.5dB)
Center (-9.0dB)
Subwoofer 1 (-3.5dB)
Surround L (-11.0dB)
Surround R (-10.0dB)

Crossover
Front (90Hz)
Center (60Hz)
Surround (60Hz)

Audyssey MultiEQ XT32 = ON
Audyssey Dynamic EQ = ON
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Last edited by WestCoastD; 02-07-2016 at 12:32 AM.
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post #79147 of 79165 Old 02-07-2016, 07:25 AM
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Originally Posted by WestCoastD View Post
After sitting back and going through quite a bit of the "Audyssey 101" documentation, and playing around a little, I ran another calibration. Making a little forward progress:

Speaker Calibration Details:
Level
Front L (-10.5dB)
Front R (-11.5dB)
Center (-9.0dB)
Subwoofer 1 (-3.5dB)
Surround L (-11.0dB)
Surround R (-10.0dB)

Crossover
Front (90Hz)
Center (60Hz)
Surround (60Hz)

Audyssey MultiEQ XT32 = ON
Audyssey Dynamic EQ = ON

That is progress! You got the front crossover to come down a little more, and all of your trim levels are within normal limits now. How do things sound after this latest calibration?
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post #79148 of 79165 Old 02-07-2016, 02:25 PM
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Originally Posted by mthomas47 View Post
That is progress! You got the front crossover to come down a little more, and all of your trim levels are within normal limits now. How do things sound after this latest calibration?
initial listening (during an HBO movie, DolbyDigital, cable TV broadcast) is very nice, surprisingly dynamic. But this is only a single random source. Will have to experiment with more of an array of sources (ie. BluRay's, music, etc.,...).

For this calibration sequence I set MLP at my normal original location, but significantly below ear-level (precisely 26in high), purposely. However all other mic positions (mic1 - mic8) were set at ear-level height (approx 47in high for my ears). This was the only way to stay within the preferred trim level limit's (especially for rear/surrounds).
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post #79149 of 79165 Old 02-07-2016, 06:09 PM
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Originally Posted by WestCoastD View Post
initial listening (during an HBO movie, DolbyDigital, cable TV broadcast) is very nice, surprisingly dynamic. But this is only a single random source. Will have to experiment with more of an array of sources (ie. BluRay's, music, etc.,...).

For this calibration sequence I set MLP at my normal original location, but significantly below ear-level (precisely 26in high), purposely. However all other mic positions (mic1 - mic8) were set at ear-level height (approx 47in high for my ears). This was the only way to stay within the preferred trim level limit's (especially for rear/surrounds).
Hi WestCoastD,

Um, ...I'm not really sure that putting the mic at MLP significantly lower than ear height is the best solution even though you got trim levels within limits. Two reasons come to mind:

1. Out of the 8 mic positions the MLP position will collect data for the Audyssey filter calculation that may not be relevant for the mix.

2. MLP mic setting is a placement from where distances and trims are calculated by MultEQ for ear level listening, but such a low setting may throw off (or maybe not) these measurements.

A couple of pictures of your in-room speaker setup would surely help identify some "best practice" routines in order to get a satisfying calibration.

Just my thoughts!

Last edited by mogorf; 02-07-2016 at 06:17 PM.
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post #79150 of 79165 Old 02-07-2016, 11:12 PM
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Originally Posted by mogorf View Post
MLP mic setting is a placement from where distances and trims are calculated by MultEQ for ear level listening, but such a low setting may throw off (or maybe not) these measurements
I read this in the Audyssey FAQ. I'm planning to re-calibrate with MLP at ear-level.

However I was determined to experiment with this lower than ear-level MLP mic setting.

My room, combined with speaker placement, plus gain of Parasound A51 amp, pose's quite a challenge landing within trim limits. It's part theater/office. Rear surrounds are mounted on rear wall, up high. Viewing position (or MLP) is crunched right in front of a desk with PC's. Consequently it's a challenge getting within proper levels. MLP proximity to rear surrounds pose a problem
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post #79151 of 79165 Old 02-08-2016, 04:08 PM
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In a last ditch effort to use XT I have been playing with the L/R Bypass setting and am pleasantly surprised with the results. I just ASSumed that XT would "turn off" the processing for the L/R speakers and still use the same filters for the surrounds as it does for the Reference setting, but that doesn't seem to be the case as my surrounds don't sound near as bright in L/R BP mode.

I then did some online learnin' and it seems that XT applies a different filter set to the surrounds in L/R BP mode..... "The average measured response from the front left and right speakers is used as the target curve for the remaining speakers in the system. The subwoofer in this case is equalized to flat".

In my case, XT doesn't go crazy with my Bi-Pole surrounds upper frequency response in L/R BP mode, compared to the Reference mode. I will use the L/R BP setting for a while and see what shakes out................
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post #79152 of 79165 Old 02-08-2016, 04:37 PM
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In a last ditch effort to use XT I have been playing with the L/R Bypass setting and am pleasantly surprised with the results. I just ASSumed that XT would "turn off" the processing for the L/R speakers and still use the same filters for the surrounds as it does for the Reference setting, but that doesn't seem to be the case as my surrounds don't sound near as bright in L/R BP mode.

I then did some online learnin' and it seems that XT applies a different filter set to the surrounds in L/R BP mode..... "The average measured response from the front left and right speakers is used as the target curve for the remaining speakers in the system. The subwoofer in this case is equalized to flat".

In my case, XT doesn't go crazy with my Bi-Pole surrounds upper frequency response in L/R BP mode, compared to the Reference mode. I will use the L/R BP setting for a while and see what shakes out................

And the saga continues!
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post #79153 of 79165 Old 02-08-2016, 05:05 PM
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And the saga continues!
HA!! No one can say I didn't try
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post #79154 of 79165 Unread 02-09-2016, 08:58 PM
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Hi

How to save Audyssey calibration results? I saw it before but I just cannot find it now after going through the FAQ and setup guide few times already. Can somebody point it to me? Thanks.
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post #79155 of 79165 Unread 02-09-2016, 09:53 PM
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Hi

How to save Audyssey calibration results? I saw it before but I just cannot find it now after going through the FAQ and setup guide few times already. Can somebody point it to me? Thanks.
If you want to save the calibration to your computer, that feature is only available if you have a Denon or Marantz receiver or pre/pro. It's not an Audyssey feature. It saves the receiver's entire configuration. The "Save" and "Load" options are at the bottom of the receiver's main Web page. See your owner's manual for details.
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post #79156 of 79165 Unread 02-10-2016, 06:12 AM
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Originally Posted by WestCoastD View Post
My room, combined with speaker placement, plus gain of Parasound A51 amp, pose's quite a challenge landing within trim limits. It's part theater/office. Rear surrounds are mounted on rear wall, up high. Viewing position (or MLP) is crunched right in front of a desk with PC's. Consequently it's a challenge getting within proper levels. MLP proximity to rear surrounds pose a problem
Too much gain?

http://www.amazon.com/Harrison-Labs-.../dp/B0006N41B0
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post #79157 of 79165 Unread 02-10-2016, 07:54 PM
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...
My room, combined with speaker placement, plus gain of Parasound A51 amp, pose's quite a challenge landing within trim limits ...
If you have separate power amps (rather than using an AVR's amps for some channels), and you are a purist, you can TEMPORARILY reduce gain by using equal value (e.g., all 12 dB) attenuators on EVERY channel like the ones in the link pepar gave you. Then, after all the trim levels have been set by Audyssey, you can REMOVE all the attenuators, so they won't be in the line. Always have all equipment off when you insert or remove attenuators (or anything). The spelling monitor told me I misspelled "attenuators" three times (four, counting this sentence), but you know what I mean.

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Hi Jeff,

...Or http://www.parts-express.com/harriso...-pair--266-242

Cheers,

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post #79159 of 79165 Unread Yesterday, 12:42 PM
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Originally Posted by garygarrison View Post
If you have separate power amps (rather than using an AVR's amps for some channels), and you are a purist, you can TEMPORARILY reduce gain by using equal value (e.g., all 12 dB) attenuators on EVERY channel like the ones in the link pepar gave you. Then, after all the trim levels have been set by Audyssey, you can REMOVE all the attenuators, so they won't be in the line. Always have all equipment off when you insert or remove attenuators (or anything). The spelling monitor told me I misspelled "attenuators" three times (four, counting this sentence), but you know what I mean.
Just a quick note Gary, if I may.

Leaving attenuators in the line will preserve calibrated Reference Volume at 0 dB MV (Master Volume) setting, while removing them after calibration will yield a new MV setting for reference which with 12 dB attenuators will be at -12 dB on the MV knob.

This means on one hand that the filter curves calculated by MultEQ will remain intact, no problem, yet, on the other hand for those who like to have DEQ (Dynamic EQ) "ON" will result in overboosted bass (and treble) coz at the new -12 dB ref. level DEQ will surely kick-in, or in other words DEQ will start to compensate 12 dBs earlier.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by garygarrison View Post
If you have separate power amps (rather than using an AVR's amps for some channels), and you are a purist, you can TEMPORARILY reduce gain by using equal value (e.g., all 12 dB) attenuators on EVERY channel like the ones in the link pepar gave you. Then, after all the trim levels have been set by Audyssey, you can REMOVE all the attenuators, so they won't be in the line. Always have all equipment off when you insert or remove attenuators (or anything). The spelling monitor told me I misspelled "attenuators" three times (four, counting this sentence), but you know what I mean.
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Just a quick note Gary, if I may.

Leaving attenuators in the line will preserve calibrated Reference Volume at 0 dB MV (Master Volume) setting, while removing them after calibration will yield a new MV setting for reference which with 12 dB attenuators will be at -12 dB on the MV knob.

This means on one hand that the filter curves calculated by MultEQ will remain intact, no problem, yet, on the other hand for those who like to have DEQ (Dynamic EQ) "ON" will result in overboosted bass (and treble) coz at the new -12 dB ref. level DEQ will surely kick-in, or in other words DEQ will start to compensate 12 dBs earlier.
thanks for the comments. I'm hoping to avoid going the attenuator route, mostly because of the physical hassle involved. I would have to move equipment rack out from wall (quite a task- believe me), a full day's work. But I will probably have to in the end.

Yes, I am employing all separate amp's, and using AudioQuest XLR interconnects for all processor-to-amp runs. Apparently gain is greater through XLR path than RCA route (for Parasound A51 amp). Consequently switching back to RCA interconnects would solve problem. Frustrating having already spent $300.00 on XLR cables. Been doing some 2ch listening, pure analog, sure sounds beautiful.

I've completed multiple Audyssey calibrations (approx. 21 runs- as of Feb. 07, 2016). Experimenting with various positioning. I seem to come very close to achieving proper trim tab limits, however Audyssey selects high crossover for fronts, also left surround measures -12dB. When I set MLP much below ear-level all levels are good, crossover's near perfect (80Hz). So I may just swap out XLR for RCA interconnects and be done with it.

My latest Audyssey calibration run (Feb. 09, 2016):
My set-up (5.1 speaker configuration):
Monitor Audio Gold GX100 fronts (42Hz - 60kHz, sensitivity = 88dB 1W@1m)
Monitor Audio Gold GXC350 center (40Hz - 60kHz, sensitivity = 90dB 1W@1m)
Monitor Audio GSFX Gold surrounds (60Hz - 43kHz, sensitivity = 86dB 1W@1m)

Parasound A51 amp
JL Audio F110 sub

Speaker Calibration Details:
Distances
Front L (10.7ft)
Front R (10.4ft)
Center (10.4ft)
Subwoofer 1 (15.0ft)
Surround L (5.6ft)
Surround R (6.1ft)

Speaker Calibration Details:
Level
Front L (-11.5B)
Front R (-11.5dB)
Center (-11.0dB)
Subwoofer 1 (-3.5dB)
Surround L (-12.0dB)
Surround R (-11.0dB)

Crossover
Front (200Hz)
Center (40Hz)
Surround (60Hz)

Audyssey MultiEQ XT32 = ON
Audyssey Dynamic EQ = ON
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post #79161 of 79165 Unread Yesterday, 01:42 PM
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Originally Posted by WestCoastD View Post
thanks for the comments. I'm hoping to avoid going the attenuator route, mostly because of the physical hassle involved. I would have to move equipment rack out from wall (quite a task- believe me), a full day's work. But I will probably have to in the end.

Yes, I am employing all separate amp's, and using AudioQuest XLR interconnects for all processor-to-amp runs. Apparently gain is greater through XLR path than RCA route (for Parasound A51 amp). Consequently switching back to RCA interconnects would solve problem. Frustrating having already spent $300.00 on XLR cables. Been doing some 2ch listening, pure analog, sure sounds beautiful.

I've completed multiple Audyssey calibrations (approx. 21 runs- as of Feb. 07, 2016). Experimenting with various positioning. I seem to come very close to achieving proper trim tab limits, however Audyssey selects high crossover for fronts, also left surround measures -12dB. When I set MLP much below ear-level all levels are good, crossover's near perfect (80Hz). So I may just swap out XLR for RCA interconnects and be done with it.

My latest Audyssey calibration run (Feb. 09, 2016):
My set-up (5.1 speaker configuration):
Monitor Audio Gold GX100 fronts (42Hz - 60kHz, sensitivity = 88dB 1W@1m)
Monitor Audio Gold GXC350 center (40Hz - 60kHz, sensitivity = 90dB 1W@1m)
Monitor Audio GSFX Gold surrounds (60Hz - 43kHz, sensitivity = 86dB 1W@1m)

Parasound A51 amp
JL Audio F110 sub

Speaker Calibration Details:
Distances
Front L (10.7ft)
Front R (10.4ft)
Center (10.4ft)
Subwoofer 1 (15.0ft)
Surround L (5.6ft)
Surround R (6.1ft)

Speaker Calibration Details:
Level
Front L (-11.5B)
Front R (-11.5dB)
Center (-11.0dB)
Subwoofer 1 (-3.5dB)
Surround L (-12.0dB)
Surround R (-11.0dB)

Crossover
Front (200Hz)
Center (40Hz)
Surround (60Hz)

Audyssey MultiEQ XT32 = ON
Audyssey Dynamic EQ = ON
Hi WestCoastD,

Your calibration results look pretty good to me, I wouldn't really worry too much about the -12 dB trim for the Surround Left, its kinda in the ballpark with the rest of the speakers. Although, I'm puzzled with the extremely high crossover result @200 Hz for the Fronts. That seems a bit odd. Can you try to put the Front L&Rs as close to the front wall as possible? In this case you can make use of so-called "boundary gain" that would probalby result in lowering the -3 dB roll-off point of your Fronts.

A couple of in-room photos of your setup would also help the helpers help you out with proper speaker placement. Just a thought.
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post #79162 of 79165 Unread Yesterday, 02:38 PM
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Originally Posted by mogorf View Post
Hi WestCoastD,

Your calibration results look pretty good to me, I wouldn't really worry too much about the -12 dB trim for the Surround Left, its kinda in the ballpark with the rest of the speakers. Although, I'm puzzled with the extremely high crossover result @200 Hz for the Fronts. That seems a bit odd. Can you try to put the Front L&Rs as close to the front wall as possible? In this case you can make use of so-called "boundary gain" that would probalby result in lowering the -3 dB roll-off point of your Fronts.

A couple of in-room photos of your setup would also help the helpers help you out with proper speaker placement. Just a thought.
Hi Feri,

People come and go on the thread, so it is sometimes hard to keep track. The OP posted photos of his room several pages back, and although his trim levels are okay now, those front crossovers are back about where they were when he started this exercise. As I recall, at our suggestion, he did experiment with front speaker positioning, as well. Although positioning his first mic. below ear level is unconventional, it did help him to get his front crossover all the way down to 90. And he said that things sound quite good. It's a bit of an unexpected result, but I would generally be in favor of whatever actually works best after extensive experimentation.

Regards,
Mike
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Originally Posted by mthomas47 View Post
Hi Feri,

People come and go on the thread, so it is sometimes hard to keep track. The OP posted photos of his room several pages back, and although his trim levels are okay now, those front crossovers are back about where they were when he started this exercise. As I recall, at our suggestion, he did experiment with front speaker positioning, as well. Although positioning his first mic. below ear level is unconventional, it did help him to get his front crossover all the way down to 90. And he said that things sound quite good. It's a bit of an unexpected result, but I would generally be in favor of whatever actually works best after extensive experimentation.

Regards,
Mike
You are right Mike, my bad for not being able to keep track, but now I found the OP's pictures posted a while back. Hmm. Something seems to be really out of whack with those Front crossovers at 200 Hz despite the placement of the speakers that are accually quite pulled back to the front wall. Nothing else comes to mind first than a broken woofer in one of the speakers, yet would need further experimenting and testing.
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Originally Posted by mogorf View Post
You are right Mike, my bad for not being able to keep track, but now I found the OP's pictures posted a while back. Hmm. Something seems to be really out of whack with those Front crossovers at 200 Hz despite the placement of the speakers that are accually quite pulled back to the front wall. Nothing else comes to mind first than a broken woofer in one of the speakers, yet would need further experimenting and testing.

I can't quite figure it out either--something about the room, I guess. But that's why I had applauded his getting the crossover down to 90Hz. That's a number he can work with. At 150 to 200Hz, I would think there would be all kinds of issues.
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Originally Posted by mthomas47 View Post
Hi Feri,
People come and go on the thread, so it is sometimes hard to keep track. The OP posted photos of his room several pages back, and although his trim levels are okay now, those front crossovers are back about where they were when he started this exercise. As I recall, at our suggestion, he did experiment with front speaker positioning, as well. Although positioning his first mic. below ear level is unconventional, it did help him to get his front crossover all the way down to 90. And he said that things sound quite good. It's a bit of an unexpected result, but I would generally be in favor of whatever actually works best after extensive experimentation.
Quote:
Originally Posted by mogorf View Post
You are right Mike, my bad for not being able to keep track, but now I found the OP's pictures posted a while back. Hmm. Something seems to be really out of whack with those Front crossovers at 200 Hz despite the placement of the speakers that are accually quite pulled back to the front wall. Nothing else comes to mind first than a broken woofer in one of the speakers, yet would need further experimenting and testing.
I have done extensive listening in pure analog mode, no Audyssey EQ, speakers sound beautiful, decent bass response for monitor size form-factor.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mthomas47 View Post
I can't quite figure it out either--something about the room, I guess. But that's why I had applauded his getting the crossover down to 90Hz. That's a number he can work with. At 150 to 200Hz, I would think there would be all kinds of issues.
thanks guys. My Elite brand (VMAX92H) retractable projection screen, which is extended 1ft outward from the front wall, is positioned just behind the front L&R speakers when fully lowered for viewing. Consequently the front L&R speakers can not be re-positioned back towards the front wall to attain additional bass (reflex) response needed. I purposely designed things this way such that the screen would clear the wall mounted plasma monitor. This concept has worked great, I can raise or lower screen when needed, or watch plasma monitor with a flick of a switch (my wife love's it ).

However, the projection screen barely drops below the rear of the top surface of the Monitor Audio Gold GX100 front monitors (approx. 1.5in.), just enough to prevent positioning closer towards front wall. The screen must be lowered completely to be properly indexed to projector position, I can't just limit screen position to provide clearance (for re-positioning) of front L&R speakers. Consequently the front's have to remain in their current position. A lot of thought went into all this before construction. I had no idea I would run into these issues- ie. low F&L bass response, excess gain at MLP, etc.,...

I've used the same Parasound A51 amp in another set-up prior to this, sitting at same (or less) distance, using a different processor (NAD T175), with RCA interconnects, perfectly calibrated. Although I did have Monitor Audio Gold GS60 front towers then (significant difference in bass output).

I would just manually overide Audyssey's crossover settings, however the FAQ explains to [not] re-adjust "downward" in frequency, only "upward" in Hertz. That a "hole" would be created .

Last edited by WestCoastD; Today at 02:10 PM.
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