"Official" Audyssey thread (FAQ in post #51779) - Page 2640 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #79171 of 79638 Old 02-13-2016, 02:27 PM
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Originally Posted by Strife21 View Post
I have a front and left speaker and sub.

Front L: -2.0db
Front R: -0.5db
Subwoofer: -7.5db

Distances
Front L: 10.1ft
Front R: 10.1ft
Subwoofer: 10.7ft

Dynamic EQ off and Dynamic Volume off.


Is there some kind of external test tone I can burn to a disk to test if at 0db its playing the correct level?
There are test tone discs available on the market, but I wouldn't rush to buy anything before going through some troubleshooting of your system. I'm sure others will also chime in to help you out.

So, this means you have a 2 channel stereo system setup with a subwoofer, right? It is interesting that the Front L and Front R have a 1.5 dB difference depsite the fact that the distances are equal from MLP. I wonder what the reason behind might be? Subwoofer trim looks A-OK.

Try to turn DynEQ "on" while leaving Dyn Vol "off" and listen again. Try not to exceed -20 dB on the Master Volume.

BTW, what program material are you listening to? Is it music? What is the source? CD/DVD player? BR player? or else?
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post #79172 of 79638 Old 02-13-2016, 02:32 PM
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Originally Posted by mogorf View Post
There are test tone discs available on the market, but I wouldn't rush to buy anything before going through some troubleshooting of your system. I'm sure others will also chime in to help you out.

So, this means you have a 2 channel stereo system setup with a subwoofer, right? It is interesting that the Front L and Front R have a 1.5 dB difference depsite the fact that the distances are equal from MLP. I wonder what the reason behind might be? Subwoofer trim looks A-OK.

Try to turn DynEQ "on" while leaving Dyn Vol "off" and listen again. Try not to exceed -20 dB on the Master Volume.

BTW, what program material are you listening to? Is it music? What is the source? CD/DVD player? BR player? or else?
The distances are equal but there is more furniture on the one side of the room then the other so I attributed it to that. No matter how many times I run it there is always a 1.0-1.5 difference between the right and the left speaker. I do not currently have speaker stands waiting for them to come in so the bookshelf speakers are on the floor. I am listening to the cable box Matrix reloaded movie for example its on cable right now.
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post #79173 of 79638 Old 02-13-2016, 02:42 PM
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Originally Posted by Strife21 View Post
The distances are equal but there is more furniture on the one side of the room then the other so I attributed it to that. No matter how many times I run it there is always a 1.0-1.5 difference between the right and the left speaker. I do not currently have speaker stands waiting for them to come in so the bookshelf speakers are on the floor. I am listening to the cable box Matrix reloaded movie for example its on cable right now.
Thanks. It is always important to have line of sight from speaker(s) to MLP, so having the bookshelf speakers on the floor explains your trim variation case. That will be better when you have the stands. No doubt.

As regards the program material on cable, there can be issues beyond our control. Does the cable box allow you to set the output level/volume? If so, how is it set now? Is the cable box hooked-up to the Denon via HDMI?
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post #79174 of 79638 Old 02-13-2016, 02:43 PM
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Thanks. It is always important to have line of sight from speaker(s) to MLP, so having the bookshelf speakers on the floor explains your trim variation case. That will be better when you have the stands. No doubt.

As regards the program material on cable, there can be issues beyond our control. Does the cable box allow you to set the output level/volume? If so, how is it set now? Is the cable box hooked-up to the Denon via HDMI?
Hooked up via HDMI now it doesn't let me set the level of the cable box. Maybe that is the issue I will try some bluerays on the PS4 I mean 0db sounds loud and I wouldn't normally listen to it at that level when watching cable but its nothing insane.
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post #79175 of 79638 Old 02-13-2016, 02:47 PM
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Hooked up via HDMI now it doesn't let me set the level of the cable box. Maybe that is the issue I will try some bluerays on the PS4 I mean 0db sounds loud and I wouldn't normally listen to it at that level when watching cable but its nothing insane.
Good idea to try the PS4. Report back your findings please.
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post #79176 of 79638 Old 02-13-2016, 03:04 PM
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Okay so I got two pink noise mp3's put them on usb stick put into ps4 and played them. with -5.0db on the receiver the spl meter measures 78db. I didn't want to go any louder then -5.0db cause it started to hurt my ears.
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post #79177 of 79638 Old 02-13-2016, 03:13 PM
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Okay so I got two pink noise mp3's put them on usb stick put into ps4 and played them. with -5.0db on the receiver the spl meter measures 78db. I didn't want to go any louder then -5.0db cause it started to hurt my ears.
I would caution you with such pink noise mp3's coz you can never know the "real" dBFS level they were recorded at. With the on-board AVR test tones you can always be sure they are recorded at 0 dBFS, so instead of experimenting with "unknown" external tones and risking the damaging of your system, you're better off with the internal tones, IMHO.

Playing them at -30 dB MV setting should yield a 75 dB SPL at your MLP with a tolerance of +/- 2 dB when your system is calibrated with the Audyssey mic bundled with your AVR.

Last edited by mogorf; 02-13-2016 at 03:19 PM.
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post #79178 of 79638 Old 02-13-2016, 03:22 PM
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Originally Posted by mogorf View Post
I would caution you with such pink noise mp3's coz you can never know the "real" dBFS level they were recorded at. With the on-board AVR test tones you can always be sure they are recorded at 0 dBFS, so instead of experimenting with "unknown" external tones and risking the damaging of your system, you're better off with the internal tones, IMHO.

Playing them at -30 dB MV setting should yield a 75 dB SPL at your MLP with a tolerance of +/- 2 dB when your system is calibrated with the Audyssey mic bundled with your AVR.
Thats whats concerning me its not reading 75db with the AVR test tones its reading 70db on the SPL meter at the 0db Master Voume

Last edited by Strife21; 02-13-2016 at 03:26 PM.
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post #79179 of 79638 Old 02-13-2016, 03:30 PM
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Thats whats concerning me its not reading 75db with the AVR test tones only like 70db.
What SPL meter are you using?
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post #79180 of 79638 Old 02-13-2016, 03:31 PM
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Originally Posted by mogorf View Post
I would caution you with such pink noise mp3's coz you can never know the "real" dBFS level they were recorded at. With the on-board AVR test tones you can always be sure they are recorded at 0 dBFS, so instead of experimenting with "unknown" external tones and risking the damaging of your system, you're better off with the internal tones, IMHO.

Playing them at -30 dB MV setting should yield a 75 dB SPL at your MLP with a tolerance of +/- 2 dB when your system is calibrated with the Audyssey mic bundled with your AVR.
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What SPL meter are you using?
a radio shack one and one i downloaded on my iphone (using c weight and slow response)
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post #79181 of 79638 Old 02-13-2016, 03:34 PM
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a radio shack one and one i downloaded on my iphone (using c weight and slow response)
Are you pointing the Radio Shack and the iPhone to the ceiling exactly placed at same height as the Audyssey mic was placed at MLP? (C weight and slow are OK.)
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post #79182 of 79638 Old 02-13-2016, 03:39 PM
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Yup I am just worried there might be something wrong with the receiver at this point.
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post #79183 of 79638 Old 02-13-2016, 03:43 PM
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Yup I am just worried there might be something wrong with the receiver at this point.
I don't think so! I think when you get the stands for your bookshelf speakers that are on the floor at the moment and partly blocked by furniture all will turn out right.
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post #79184 of 79638 Old 02-13-2016, 05:10 PM
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Yup I am just worried there might be something wrong with the receiver at this point.
Hi,

I have been following this a little, and didn't want to chime-in while you and Feri were talking, but +1 to what he said. I don't think that anything is wrong with the receiver at all. When you played a disc with pink noise, you could only go up to about -5 MV before it got too loud. That sounds typical for most people, and in fact you may be able to tolerate louder volumes than a lot of us can.

I would trust Audyssey's results much more than I would a RS meter. And don't forget that even with cable, nothing stops you from going above 0.0 on your MV. I would put the meter away for awhile and just enjoy the audio if I were you.

Regards,
Mike
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post #79185 of 79638 Old 02-13-2016, 06:03 PM
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Okay yea. I did have a very high end car stereo when I was younger and played it at excessive levels, I'm wondering if my tolerance is high or my ears are degraded as well. Good poInt.
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post #79186 of 79638 Old 02-14-2016, 11:21 AM
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Hi. I thought I had posted this but guess it never went through.

I ran audessey xt32 for my denon x4200w. Ended up with a 150mhz crossover for fronts and center and a 90mhz for surround. Does the 150mhz seem way too high? Any suggestions?

Also, when I ran test tones, I noticed the 2 surrounds have a bit a different pitch to them. Fronts all generally sound the same. Both same speakers (don't remember brand or model). Is his normal or maybe could be my ears? I listen both while facing them and turned away. Same to both ears.

Just trying to tighten everything up so any suggestions appreciated.
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post #79187 of 79638 Old 02-14-2016, 11:42 AM
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Hi. I thought I had posted this but guess it never went through.

I ran audessey xt32 for my denon x4200w. Ended up with a 150mhz crossover for fronts and center and a 90mhz for surround. Does the 150mhz seem way too high? Any suggestions?

Also, when I ran test tones, I noticed the 2 surrounds have a bit a different pitch to them. Fronts all generally sound the same. Both same speakers (don't remember brand or model). Is his normal or maybe could be my ears? I listen both while facing them and turned away. Same to both ears.

Just trying to tighten everything up so any suggestions appreciated.
Hi wassy,

If you could send a couple of pictures of your setup t/with brand/model of all your speakers it would be much easier to analyze your issues.
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post #79188 of 79638 Old 02-14-2016, 11:58 AM
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Hi wassy,

If you could send a couple of pictures of your setup t/with brand/model of all your speakers it would be much easier to analyze your issues.
Attached is a couple room pics. As far as brand and models, gonna be tough. The front is a passive sound bar from artison. From about 2010. Don't know model #. Label is hidden behind mounting bracket that supports speaker. The tears are in wall and we're here when I bought the house. Without removing them I have no idea. Subwoofer is a velodyne. I can check model if it's important but question was about crossovers on fronts and surrounds?
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post #79189 of 79638 Old 02-14-2016, 12:17 PM
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Attached is a couple room pics. As far as brand and models, gonna be tough. The front is a passive sound bar from artison. From about 2010. Don't know model #. Label is hidden behind mounting bracket that supports speaker. The tears are in wall and we're here when I bought the house. Without removing them I have no idea. Subwoofer is a velodyne. I can check model if it's important but question was about crossovers on fronts and surrounds?
Wow! Beautiful furniture, indeed! OK, I'm not much familiar with soundbars, but I think since all 3 front speakers (L,C & R) are incorporated you don't seem to have too many options for speakers placement. One thing comes to mind, if it's feasible, to take off the grid and try to adjust/tilt the soundbar to face seated ear height. You can use anything like matchboxes, or soap boxes, they won't be seeen when grid is back in place. As you may also know, speakers (incuding the ones in a soundbar) will always produce their highest SLP and widest frequency response when on-axis with our ears.

Having done the above you may experiement with difference mic placements at and around your seating area till you can see a drop in crossovers.

As regards the in-wall surrounds you really have no option to move them around, but hopefully the above experiment will yield a bit lower crossover, but the 90 Hz isn't something you would really need to worry about for surrounds.
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post #79190 of 79638 Old 02-14-2016, 12:42 PM
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Originally Posted by wassy View Post
Hi. I thought I had posted this but guess it never went through.

I ran audessey xt32 for my denon x4200w. Ended up with a 150mhz crossover for fronts and center and a 90mhz for surround. Does the 150mhz seem way too high? Any suggestions?

Also, when I ran test tones, I noticed the 2 surrounds have a bit a different pitch to them. Fronts all generally sound the same. Both same speakers (don't remember brand or model). Is his normal or maybe could be my ears? I listen both while facing them and turned away. Same to both ears.

Just trying to tighten everything up so any suggestions appreciated.
Hi,

+1 to what Feri said. As discussed in the other thread, if you want to improve the audio performance of your front soundstage, you will need to upgrade your front speakers (either with, or without, a CC). 150Hz crossovers don't seem surprising to me considering the size of the drivers in your soundbar. Driver size and cabinet enclosure are very limiting factors in the performance of soundbars. They can do pretty well with high frequencies sometimes, but mid-range and mid to upper bass frequencies represent a much bigger challenge for them, again due to driver size and cabinet enclosure. They can be a great solution for a small room with close seating distances, but they do have real limitations in a large room with a listening distance of 17'.

With respect to the test tone sounding slightly different for your two surround speakers, I would consider that fairly normal. Even though the speakers are theoretically identical, their specific frequency response in-room will be a little different. And your AVR may not set their trim levels precisely alike.

Regards,
Mike
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post #79191 of 79638 Old 02-14-2016, 12:55 PM
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Wow! Beautiful furniture, indeed! OK, I'm not much familiar with soundbars, but I think since all 3 front speakers (L,C & R) are incorporated you don't seem to have too many options for speakers placement. One thing comes to mind, if it's feasible, to take off the grid and try to adjust/tilt the soundbar to face seated ear height. You can use anything like matchboxes, or soap boxes, they won't be seeen when grid is back in place. As you may also know, speakers (incuding the ones in a soundbar) will always produce their highest SLP and widest frequency response when on-axis with our ears.

Having done the above you may experiement with difference mic placements at and around your seating area till you can see a drop in crossovers.

As regards the in-wall surrounds you really have no option to move them around, but hopefully the above experiment will yield a bit lower crossover, but the 90 Hz isn't something you would really need to worry about for surrounds.
I'm actively looking for a better front setup but I'm constrained to the space. Despite that, you say to move the mic around and try for a better (lower) crossover. Why not just manually adjust it down to 80mhz?
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post #79192 of 79638 Old 02-14-2016, 01:01 PM
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Hi,

+1 to what Feri said. As discussed in the other thread, if you want to improve the audio performance of your front soundstage, you will need to upgrade your front speakers (either with, or without, a CC). 150Hz crossovers don't seem surprising to me considering the size of the drivers in your soundbar. Driver size and cabinet enclosure are very limiting factors in the performance of soundbars. They can do pretty well with high frequencies sometimes, but mid-range and mid to upper bass frequencies represent a much bigger challenge for them, again due to driver size and cabinet enclosure. They can be a great solution for a small room with close seating distances, but they do have real limitations in a large room with a listening distance of 17'.

With respect to the test tone sounding slightly different for your two surround speakers, I would consider that fairly normal. Even though the speakers are theoretically identical, their specific frequency response in-room will be a little different. And your AVR may not set their trim levels precisely alike.

Regards,
Mike
I am looking for something different up front. This was based on current setup of course. I realize the range is not there on these drivers but I thought 150 was pretty high still. Doesn't that mean that all sound lower than 150 goes to the sub? Or do I have this all wrong? If so, that would mean many pieces of audio are getting lost and crushed into bass?

2 of the def tech SEVEN's may work but- without a seperate center channel, i assume the l/r will adjust and create its own center channel type output? I'm leaning towards the Golden Ears XL bar but without an audition it's tough to guess. Very few resellers in my area. 1 in fact.
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post #79193 of 79638 Old 02-14-2016, 01:03 PM
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I'm actively looking for a better front setup but I'm constrained to the space. Despite that, you say to move the mic around and try for a better (lower) crossover. Why not just manually adjust it down to 80mhz?
Of course, instead of the soundbar you may consider bookshelf speakers that can easily fit into the furtiture.

Adjusting the crossovers lower than it was set during calibration in usually not advised. You will get a range between lower c/o and original c/o where Audyssey did not create a filter resulting in an EQ gap.

BTW, its not "mhz" but just "Hz".
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post #79194 of 79638 Old 02-14-2016, 01:22 PM
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Originally Posted by wassy View Post
I am looking for something different up front. This was based on current setup of course. I realize the range is not there on these drivers but I thought 150 was pretty high still. Doesn't that mean that all sound lower than 150 goes to the sub? Or do I have this all wrong? If so, that would mean many pieces of audio are getting lost and crushed into bass?

2 of the def tech SEVEN's may work but- without a seperate center channel, i assume the l/r will adjust and create its own center channel type output? I'm leaning towards the Golden Ears XL bar but without an audition it's tough to guess. Very few resellers in my area. 1 in fact.

You have it right about possibly losing some audio performance with a 150Hz crossover, particularly depending on the capabilities of your Velodyne sub. But I wouldn't manually drop the crossovers for the reason that Feri gave you. You would lose the benefit of EQ for the region below 150.

The GoldenEars soundbar would undoubtedly be an upgrade to the one you have now. It's just that I suspect you can do better. If there is a Best Buy locally, couldn't you buy a couple of Mythos 7's and try them? Then if you didn't like them, you could simply take them back for a refund. I assume you would have to order the GoldenEars soundbar, so that's a little dicier.

I did suggest two Sevens, rather than three, in order to give you some separation between them. They would, in fact, create a phantom center, but with only 2' of separation, and 17' to your MLP, I don't believe the sweet spot between the two would move much or be perceptible. I honestly don't know if this would be a better solution for you than another soundbar. But I think it would be. And it would be very easy to find out without having to go to the trouble of ordering something, and returning it if dissatisfied. You could even try three Sevens, but my instincts say two would work better. Again, I'm not sure about that, but if I were in your position, I would not hesitate to experiment.
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post #79195 of 79638 Old 02-14-2016, 01:58 PM
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.

BTW, its not "mhz" but just "Hz".
Thank you!
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post #79196 of 79638 Old 02-14-2016, 02:01 PM
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Originally Posted by wassy View Post
I am looking for something different up front ... I realize the range is not there on these drivers but I thought 150 was pretty high still. Doesn't that mean that all sound lower than 150 goes to the sub?

2 of the def tech SEVEN's may work but- without a seperate center channel, i assume the l/r will adjust and create its own center channel type output? I'm leaning towards the Golden Ears XL bar but without an audition it's tough to guess. Very few resellers in my area. 1 in fact.
Your furniture and entertainment center are beautiful. The dark color may help the video picture stand out more (a good thing).

A crossover of 150 is not surprising given the size of your front speakers and their enclosure.

Yes, the sound below 150 would pretty much go to the sub, but crossovers are not "brick walls," so some sound below 150 will go into your sound bar, and some sound above 150 will go into the sub. The goal is a smooth transition.

I wouldn't get another sound bar. I'll admit being prejudiced against them, because the speakers are so small that they can't be expected to reach very far into the bass, and may require a lot of cone excursion to produce the bass they provide. If your sub does a good job as high as 150/200 (check its manual, and try it with a frequency sweep disk in your player), there is nothing I know of that would be wrong with placing your crossover at 150, except that, if the sub is not centered, you may be aware that the bass is coming from it, and not from in and around your screen (theoretically, bass is non-directional below about 150, but I'll swear we heard some directional bass coming from our sub, back when ours was way off center ... moving it to the center fixed that).

Are any of those shelves removable? If so, I'd consider removing the lower shelves on the far left and right sides, and looking for the best available bookshelf speakers to fit in the resulting spaces. I'd toe them in a bit toward the main listening position (experiment). You might get away with using your existing sound bar for a center channel, if the bass going to it is limited by a 150 Hz crossover.

The L/R will create a "phantom" center channel if your AVR will adjust to place the center information -- including dialog -- from the 5.1 or 7.1 Blu-rays and DVDs into your L/R. Check your AVR manual. The (big) problem with this is that a "phantom" center with widely spaced LF/RF (which you should have, IMO) rarely sounds centered from any seat except a seat that itself is at dead center.
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post #79197 of 79638 Old 02-14-2016, 02:18 PM
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Thank you all so far for your help. Great info. As mentioned in another thread I am limited to the screened area below the tv. Even though it's an aesthetic issue mostly I think the glass shelves would vibrate with bookshelves.

Mthomas, yes I have a Best Buy and was headed there yesterday to try the SEVEN's but they don't have stock. None of the area stores do. But would I not be better off with two NINES? If I go that route. On the one hand I think a center speaker will do better than a wide l/r but I'm willing to try. If nothing else it'll give me a basis as to whether to seek seperate a or a bar at any rate. But for that kind of money I'm thinking the GE might do better in its own. I haven't heard it but reviews are amazing.
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Speaking of experimenting, the discussion last night about a 0.0 MV setting not sounding overly loud peaked my curiosity. The OP had a 2.1 system and was a little surprised that a Reference level volume didn't sound quite as overwhelming as he would have expected. Setting aside the issue of whether he is simply more tolerant of loud noises, or has perhaps damaged his hearing slightly in the past (as some of us probably have ), I was curious how much difference there is between playing in 2-channel, versus 5-channel, which the Dolby Reference Standard was really developed for. So, I decided to conduct a little experiment.

I decided to play some music at a comfortable listening level and measure the volume at the MLP, using a smart phone app, with different numbers of speakers playing. To keep things simple for myself, I just ran without subs, since everything but my center is full range. I used a constant MV of -22 with the same piece of instrumental jazz, and I selected something with a pretty constant volume level throughout, so I could get a good average volume playing the first 2 minutes of the track.

I started with Stereo (just my two front speakers), but left Audyssey engaged for all three tests. No DEQ or Dynamic Volume, of course. With just the two speakers, the average volume at my MLP was 55db with a peak of 61db.

I then removed my two rear surrounds in my Speaker Configuration Menu, and ran 5 speakers in Multi-Channel Stereo (blech!) Now the measured volume at the MLP, for the same two minutes, was an average of 59db with a peak of 64db.

Then I added back my rear surrounds, and ran all 7 speakers. The measured volume increased to an average of 61db with a peak of 66.

This test confirmed something that I was thinking last night--that with a 5.1 system, the OP might have been a little more impressed with a Reference volume. The 4db difference I measured between 2-channels, and 5-channels, was substantial (about 40% louder). And it was about 60% louder with 7 channels in play.

Of course, movie viewing would be a little different since the surround channels would have a generally lower average volume than the front three, so the overall difference might be slightly less. But I thought it might be interesting to share this. The OP can always go over 0.0 on his MV if he wants to, and if his ears will stand it . But just adding more speakers, as he probably will over time, will also get him into some more satisfying (and enveloping) sound, as well.

Regards,
Mike
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post #79199 of 79638 Old 02-14-2016, 02:39 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wassy View Post
Thank you all so far for your help. Great info. As mentioned in another thread I am limited to the screened area below the tv. Even though it's an aesthetic issue mostly I think the glass shelves would vibrate with bookshelves.

Mthomas, yes I have a Best Buy and was headed there yesterday to try the SEVEN's but they don't have stock. None of the area stores do. But would I not be better off with two NINES? If I go that route. On the one hand I think a center speaker will do better than a wide l/r but I'm willing to try. If nothing else it'll give me a basis as to whether to seek seperate a or a bar at any rate. But for that kind of money I'm thinking the GE might do better in its own. I haven't heard it but reviews are amazing.
Hi,

Too bad about BB not having anything in stock. That would be ideal. You have to have two front speakers, at a minimum, in order to operate your AVR and surround speakers. So, you could go with two separates, three separates (including a CC), or a soundbar that combines the fronts and a center. I know that the reviews on the GoldenEar are good, but it's all relative. Good for a soundbar, in a room your size, and at the distance involved, may not be good enough. I honestly don't want to discourage you from trying that, though, if you like the idea. Sometimes we just get focused on something, and that's what we want.

The same applies to the Mythos 9's. Your instinct is to go bigger there, and to fill-up the full 65" of available width. My instinct is to use two 7's and keep them away from each other a little to avoid interference. I don't know for sure that will result, but that is the same reason I have advised going with only two 7's rather than three--to give them some breathing room.

In my personal opinion, two Mythos 7's, in that 65" wide space, will blow the GoldenEars soundbar out of the water, but who really knows what will work best until you try something? I took a quick look at the dimensions of the Mythos 9, and two of them would just fit. If you order any of these options from someone like Amazon, it might make a possible return easier.

http://www.amazon.com/Definitive-Tec...ology+mythos+9
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post #79200 of 79638 Old 02-14-2016, 03:50 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wassy View Post
... As mentioned in another thread I am limited to the screened area below the tv. Even though it's an aesthetic issue mostly I think the glass shelves would vibrate with bookshelves ...
I didn't realize those were glass shelves. Glass shelves can sometimes be damped down with neoprene pads on top and small squares underneath where they contact the supports.

Bookshelf speakers could sit on the main structure that the TV and the sound bar are on (but way off to the sides), but most would be tall enough to necessitate removing one shelf above them.
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