"Official" Audyssey thread (FAQ in post #51779) - Page 400 - AVS Forum
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Receivers, Amps, and Processors > "Official" Audyssey thread (FAQ in post #51779)
fpcross's Avatar fpcross 04:49 AM 02-27-2009
I have a Yamaha subwoofer (about 10 yrs. old) that has a knob to set the frequencies reproduced, along with the volume setting on another knob.
I know I should set the volume halfway for the Audyssey EQ process, but where would I set the frequency---also at the midpoint???

Thanks.

Zen Traveler's Avatar Zen Traveler 05:26 AM 02-27-2009
Quote:
Originally Posted by fpcross View Post

...I know I should set the volume halfway for the Audyssey EQ process, but where would I set the frequency---also at the midpoint???

Set it to it's highest level before running Audyssey.
ditcin's Avatar ditcin 05:32 AM 02-27-2009
I have an Integra DHC 9.9 and have had nothing but problems with the Audyssey.
Yes, I use a tripod. Yes, the room is completely silent. Yet I'm getting completely wacky measurements from the Audyssey. Most of my levels are -12, my speaker distance is completely off (sub 12 ft away when it's only 6ft from the center seating position). Surround levela are so low they can be heard. The bass is cut off so much, my Buttkicker isn't working properly.
It does clear up separation but at the same time when A and B'ed to the off position it really makes everything sound thin and weak by comparison.
I've done several different mic set-ups ranging from 3 to 6 mic locations. All have been wacky.
I refuse to pay $500 for a guy to come in and do a pro-set-up.
Previous, I had Athem D2 and its mic calibration was like the pro edition of Audessy, and it worked. However, I find the Integra actually has a better decoding system and sound quality.
This Audessy sets the speakers to the wrong settings - the volume wrong, the distance wrong and applies the wrong filters.
I'd just don't get it. I had Axioms and it made them sound small and cheap. For reasons I won't go into I had to sell them and have since gotten Polk, VM series.
Break down as follows:
Polk VM 30s - Mains L&R
Polk VM 20s - Center, Side Surrounds
Polk VM 10s Pair, Rear/Back Surrounds
Axiom EP600 Sub http://www.axiomaudio.com/ep600.html
Axiom A1400-8 Amp http://www.axiomaudio.com/a1400-8.html
Integra DHC-9.9 Receiver/Decoder
Buttkicker
- Scott
archer101's Avatar archer101 06:12 AM 02-27-2009
Quote:
Originally Posted by ditcin View Post

I have an Integra DHC 9.9 and have had nothing but problems with the Audyssey.
Yes, I use a tripod. Yes, the room is completely silent. Yet I'm getting completely wacky measurements from the Audyssey. Most of my levels are -12, my speaker distance is completely off (sub 12 ft away when it's only 6ft from the center seating position). Surround levela are so low they can be heard. The bass is cut off so much, my Buttkicker isn't working properly.
It does clear up separation but at the same time when A and B'ed to the off position it really makes everything sound thin and weak by comparison.
I've done several different mic set-ups ranging from 3 to 6 mic locations. All have been wacky.
I refuse to pay $500 for a guy to come in and do a pro-set-up.
Previous, I had Athem D2 and its mic calibration was like the pro edition of Audessy, and it worked. However, I find the Integra actually has a better decoding system and sound quality.
This Audessy sets the speakers to the wrong settings - the volume wrong, the distance wrong and applies the wrong filters.
I'd just don't get it. I had Axioms and it made them sound small and cheap. For reasons I won't go into I had to sell them and have since gotten Polk, VM series.
Break down as follows:
Polk VM 30s - Mains L&R
Polk VM 20s - Center, Side Surrounds
Polk VM 10s Pair, Rear/Back Surrounds
Axiom EP600 Sub http://www.axiomaudio.com/ep600.html
Axiom A1400-8 Amp http://www.axiomaudio.com/a1400-8.html
Integra DHC-9.9 Receiver/Decoder
Buttkicker
- Scott

I love my Audessy with my Onkyo 876 A/V receiver. It sets every speaker within 1/2 foot.
Mine comes with the new tower mic and not the old style puck mic.
It does cut back on many of my speakers but that is to equalize them. I was able to adjust my sub volume so the cutback is 0 on my sub.
My fronts and sides, I have Infinity P362's and they are cut back -2.5 dB.
My rears JBl L820 only cut back 1/2 dB.
When it gets done with setup it sets my fronts to full and the rears at 60Hz so I manually put all speakers to 60 Hz. Sounds great.
Jim Hef's Avatar Jim Hef 07:21 AM 02-27-2009
Did you turn off the Buttkicker?
ditcin's Avatar ditcin 07:29 AM 02-27-2009
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim Hef View Post

Did you turn off the Buttkicker?

If you mean, during the calibration - yes.
- Scott
shelly's Avatar shelly 08:05 AM 02-27-2009
I have 2 subs in the front of the room and have disabled their crossover, set their phase to 0 and have the volume at 1/3. But I also have a Hsu mid bass module directly behind my chair.

Hsu recommends that the receiver sub crossover be set to 80hz, that all other subs except the mbm have their internal crossover set to 50hz with the mbm taking care of the 50-80hz range. This is how the subs had been set but I'm changing this to run the Audyssey.

The Hsu mbm has its polarity also set to 0, its volume set to 1/3 and the internal crossover is disabled, just like the front subs.

I will be taking 3 readings from the couch (including my seat as number 1), three readings from just in front of the couch in line with the first three readings, and 2 readings from just behind the couch where the msb is located.

My concern is that the Audyssey will be picking up the mbm behind my seat more so than the front wall subs.

Any feedback is welcome.

Shelly
SoundofMind's Avatar SoundofMind 08:22 AM 02-27-2009
Quote:
Originally Posted by ditcin View Post

I have an Integra DHC 9.9 and have had nothing but problems with the Audyssey.
...I've done several different mic set-ups ranging from 3 to 6 mic locations. All have been wacky. This Audessy sets the speakers to the wrong settings - the volume wrong, the distance wrong and applies the wrong filters. I'd just don't get it. Scott

Hi, Scott, sorry you're having problems. Nice HT rig you've got there. Might be helpful if you post the results for each channel including trim, crossover, distance (and actual measured distance) so we can examine the "wrong settings" for clues. Also describe the layout of the room, speaker placement, and the mic positions you used. May I assume you are familiar with the Audyssey Setup Guide and that when a sub is trimmed by Audyssey to -12dB, you then turn down the volume knob on the sub itself and rerun autosetup?
Kal Rubinson's Avatar Kal Rubinson 08:43 AM 02-27-2009
Quote:
Originally Posted by ditcin View Post

If you mean, during the calibration - yes.
- Scott

Then, Audyssey will sense the bottom end of your sub and roll off the bass below that. Result: No output for ButtKicker. AFAIK.
fyzziks's Avatar fyzziks 08:46 AM 02-27-2009
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kuro View Post

Can you enlighten me what is pressure field calibration and where I can find the doc on that on the internet?

The lecture notes that Chris pointed to before appear to no longer be available on the B&K site. However, they have been archived here. This is a simplified lecture note - if you want the real deal, and have some EE background, you can look at the Microphone Handbook. That one is really good, lots of detail on how measurement mics are constructed and how they work - and why you don't want to use a free-field calibrated mic for room acoustic measurements. As Chris says, it's all in the high frequencies.
QueueCumber's Avatar QueueCumber 08:48 AM 02-27-2009
Quote:
Originally Posted by QueueCumber View Post

I just replaced some of my amps and all my speakers are being listed as reversed polarity via Audyssey setup.

Previous to this, only a few of them were listed as out of polarity (there seems to be little rhyme or reason to it, because it isn't necessarily only the amps I removed that have changed polarity!)...

What would cause all of them to be listed as out of polarity? I checked the connections; they are all correct. I am using balanced cables from a Denon AVP-A1HDCI to the fully balanced amp. If all of them are out of polarity at the same time, wouldn't that make them in polarity with each other and make it a non-issue?!

What do you recommend I do Audyssey? Should I reverse the polarity on all the speakers, and if I do that, should I then rerun the Audyssey Auto-Setup on the Denon AVP?

Thanks.

I was hoping Audyssey had some input on the above quote. Should I just reverse all their polarities.
penngray's Avatar penngray 09:01 AM 02-27-2009
Quote:
Then, Audyssey will sense the bottom end of your sub and roll off the bass below that. Result: No output for ButtKicker. AFAIK.


So how do we use Audyssey when we have buttkickers or similar and we want a signal untouched down into single digits?
cavchameleon's Avatar cavchameleon 09:05 AM 02-27-2009
Quote:
Originally Posted by fyzziks View Post

The lecture notes that Chris pointed to before appear to no longer be available on the B&K site. However, they have been archived here. This is a simplified lecture note - if you want the real deal, and have some EE background, you can look at the Microphone Handbook. That one is really good, lots of detail on how measurement mics are constructed and how they work - and why you don't want to use a free-field calibrated mic for room acoustic measurements. As Chris says, it's all in the high frequencies.

fyzziks,

Great resources!
Thanks!
Ray
lcubed's Avatar lcubed 09:27 AM 02-27-2009
Quote:
Originally Posted by audyssey View Post

In such extreme cases it would be better to tilt the mic back and get better grazing incidence. The tricky part is when not all speakers are at the same angle and you may have to adjust the tilt for different speakers. It can be done if you are nimble during the time the data is transferring to the DSP chip between speaker measurements.

unfortunately, i'm back on the east coast now, and the system in question
is on the west coast.

can i get the correct grazing angle effect if i invert the mike (point
it towards the floor) on the boom stand?? just trying what to instruct
my folks since i won't be back for several months to do it myself.
Kuro's Avatar Kuro 09:29 AM 02-27-2009
Quote:
Originally Posted by audyssey View Post

Yes! Well sort of... There will still be some bumps, but if you measure with Audyssey on and off and average 6-8 measurements then you will get a much better picture of what is happening in your listening area.

Quote:
The room correction algorithm needs data from many points in order to properly correct the sound within the listening area regardless of the number of listeners.

It seems that Lyngdorf Room Perfect and Audyssey are doing similar room measurement method. Room Perfect uses two sets of continuous test pulses, one in the upper freq band and one in the lower freq band. The lower freq band test pulses sounded like some kind of wobbling tone, as if you're in a submarine. My audio engineer friend thinks that this type of correction is more akin to smoothing room modes; to even out bass sound instead of true room correction.

Quote:
Try this experiment: Use the LinearX mic to calibrate MultEQ in one spot only. Don't touch the mic after you are done. Then connect to your measurement system and measure the response. You will be amazed at how flat it is. But, you will also be amazed at how bad it will sound.

Sounds like an interesting experiment! I'll try it out in the weekend. TacT RCS is essentially measuring this way, but it sounds fantastic! One must note that TacT uses a completely different test pulse pattern for the measurement.

Quote:
I'm afraid I lost you on the "harmonics dropped" statement. Are you saying you did a time-frequency analysis and found missing harmonics?

Chris, are you an audiophile? The time-freq analysis is all done by human ears with different listeners involved.

A good test track will be "A Time for Love" by Melissa Walker. This is a piece very rich in piano harmonics and excellent female vocal. With the Denon mic for measurement, the piano harmonics seems to be missing. The vocal has a layer of fog or veil to it. With the LinX mic on the Denon amp or TacT RCS, the harmonics is very rich and one can feel the weight of the piano note from the piano player. Could it be the fact that I have a 6db FR variation from 200Hz-1Khz using the Denon mic, such that certain freqs got attenuated by 6db and got interpreted as missing harmonics?

I've to warn you that it does require very good amplifier and speakers to discern such differences (Denon 5308ci is good, Onkyo 906 is not). My speakers have ribbon tweeters.

Finally, have you guys ever used different mics for Audyssey measurement,(from the $1 panasonic capsule to the $6000 B&K and calibrated them using pressure-field calibration), and detected no changes in the final sound? Would the mic's other attribute such as impulse response, mic diaphram settling time, distortion, etc. not affecting the quality of sound? Or the FIR filter's smoothing parameters have effectively "smoothed" them out? The empirical result I got with the LinX mic is very positive, but so far the evidence I have is a "tighter" FR curve so that I don't get a 6db variation from 200Hz-1KHz...
Kuro's Avatar Kuro 09:31 AM 02-27-2009
Quote:
Originally Posted by audyssey View Post

Maybe I should walk over to the EE Dept. Office and look for your grades

I did ok, 3.74 for my masters, not 3.9 my peers were having...
pepar's Avatar pepar 09:52 AM 02-27-2009
Quote:
Originally Posted by shelly View Post

I have 2 subs in the front of the room and have disabled their crossover, set their phase to 0 and have the volume at 1/3. But I also have a Hsu mid bass module directly behind my chair.

Hsu recommends that the receiver sub crossover be set to 80hz, that all other subs except the mbm have their internal crossover set to 50hz with the mbm taking care of the 50-80hz range. This is how the subs had been set but I'm changing this to run the Audyssey.

The Hsu mbm has its polarity also set to 0, its volume set to 1/3 and the internal crossover is disabled, just like the front subs.

I will be taking 3 readings from the couch (including my seat as number 1), three readings from just in front of the couch in line with the first three readings, and 2 readings from just behind the couch where the msb is located.

My concern is that the Audyssey will be picking up the mbm behind my seat more so than the front wall subs.

Any feedback is welcome.

Shelly

Deja vu, Shelly. I am not familiar with a mid-bass module, but is is self-descriptive. How is the MBM connected to the system?
novcze's Avatar novcze 10:00 AM 02-27-2009
Quote:
Originally Posted by audyssey View Post

It should not be pointed to the speaker because the mic was calibrated for grazing incidence (pointing to the ceiling). It is not at true that mics are more sensitive when pointed to the speaker. It all depends on the type of microphone used and the type of calibration used. A speaker designer in an anechoic chamber would use a free field mic pointing to the speaker. An acoustician measuring in a reverberant room would use a pressure-field mic pointing to the ceiling. If you point a pressure field mic to the speakers you can get results that are off by several dB at high frequencies.

The mic calibration also has nothing to do with the ear sensitivity with direction.


Thanks for clarification. I may sound skeptical in my previous posts but I really like what Audyssey does, especially DynamicEQ (+MultEQ) is very useful when listening at -23dB.
FilmMixer's Avatar FilmMixer 10:23 AM 02-27-2009
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kuro View Post

Chris, are you an audiophile? The time-freq analysis is all done by human ears with different listeners involved.

Besides coming off as a little rude (IMO), that comment ruined your credibility on this subject for me, 3.74 GPA EE or not.
Kuro's Avatar Kuro 10:34 AM 02-27-2009
Quote:
Originally Posted by fyzziks View Post

The lecture notes that Chris pointed to before appear to no longer be available on the B&K site. However, they have been archived here. This is a simplified lecture note - if you want the real deal, and have some EE background, you can look at the Microphone Handbook. That one is really good, lots of detail on how measurement mics are constructed and how they work - and why you don't want to use a free-field calibrated mic for room acoustic measurements. As Chris says, it's all in the high frequencies.

THANK YOU! This is exactly what I was looking for.
Kuro's Avatar Kuro 10:47 AM 02-27-2009
Quote:
Originally Posted by FilmMixer View Post

Besides coming off as a little rude (IMO), that comment ruined your credibility on this subject for me, 3.74 GPA EE or not.

You got me wrong. It was not meant to be rude. I was merely trying to covey that the difference in sound can be small, so that it may need the opinions of several listeners. To an audiophile, it may come off as huge difference, but for non-audiophiles, the differences just may not be heard.

I sincerely apologize if it sounded that way to you or Chris
fyzziks's Avatar fyzziks 10:55 AM 02-27-2009
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kal Rubinson View Post

Then, Audyssey will sense the bottom end of your sub and roll off the bass below that. Result: No output for ButtKicker. AFAIK.

Are you sure? AFAIK, MultEQ never "rolls off" anything except its correction. The filters just transition to all-pass below the -3dB point.
shelly's Avatar shelly 11:04 AM 02-27-2009
Quote:
Originally Posted by pepar View Post

Deja vu, Shelly. I am not familiar with a mid-bass module, but is is self-descriptive. How is the MBM connected to the system?

The sub preamp output of the receiver is split 4 ways, with one cable going to each of the subs as well as another going to my Crowson transducers under my chair.

I still do not know how the mic will react to the closeness of the mbm.

Also, should I leave the Crowson transducters on for the Audyssey?

Shelly
Jim Hef's Avatar Jim Hef 11:32 AM 02-27-2009
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kuro View Post

...not 3.9 my peers were having...

The 5th year seniors from the football team??? Sorry, Penn State guy here still with sour grapes!!!
pepar's Avatar pepar 11:33 AM 02-27-2009
Quote:
Originally Posted by shelly View Post

The sub preamp output of the receiver is split 4 ways, with one cable going to each of the subs as well as another going to my Crowson transducers under my chair.

I still do not know how the mic will react to the closeness of the mbm.

Also, should I leave the Crowson transducters on for the Audyssey?

Shelly

I would turn off any tactile transducers.

As for the MBM, that would seem to be an unconventional system configuration. You must think that it contributes something positive to your system. Anyway, just run Audyssey setup according to the guide and it will work with what you have to produce a curve as close as it can to the target. You might also want to do a setup with conventional configuration, i.e. no MBM.
BRADH's Avatar BRADH 11:34 AM 02-27-2009
Quote:
Originally Posted by shelly View Post

The sub preamp output of the receiver is split 4 ways, with one cable going to each of the subs as well as another going to my Crowson transducers under my chair.

I still do not know how the mic will react to the closeness of the mbm.

Also, should I leave the Crowson transducters on for the Audyssey?

Shelly

Shelly

This will help with the subs. I am not for sure about the transducters someone else will have to answer that.

You will need a RS meter. Here is what you will need to do. First turn off all three subs. Then turn on one front sub and with your RS meter and internal test tone from your middle position (where you put the Audyssey mic for the first measurement) set the level to 72db then turn off that sub and repeat for the other front sub, and rear sub. Now all three will be the close to the same level. Now run Audssey.

Brad
89MustangGX's Avatar 89MustangGX 12:11 PM 02-27-2009
I finally got around to running Audyssey on my Onkyo 606 again after moving and changing things around and I have run into a problem/question I am looking for some info on.

I have 4 Energy C500s towers, a CC50 center, and a Klipsch Sub-12. I believe I followed the directions and advice I have seen on here and the results I got were: set all speakers to full range, db levels at about -2 for the towers with the smaller center bumped up to +2, and the distances are all pretty much right on. (I did go back and change the range to 80hz for all the speakers.)

My questions is about the sub level. I had the sub set to on all the time with the crossover as high as it would go and started with the gain 1/2 way up. Audyssey set it to -15db. I read a little on here, went back and bumped the gain down a little and ran again. Same results. So I did it one more time, this time with the gain about 1/3. This time I got -14db. This can't be right -- something is off here I think. I have the sub placed in the corner of the room -- is this why I am getting these results? Or is it just that with the "full range" setting that Audyssey picked up it doesn't see the need for much sub? Is there something else I'm missign with this setup?

I am looking for some ideas or advice on how to correctly address this issue.

Thanks!

Adam
penngray's Avatar penngray 12:12 PM 02-27-2009
Quote:
Originally Posted by fyzziks View Post

Are you sure? AFAIK, MultEQ never "rolls off" anything except its correction. The filters just transition to all-pass below the -3dB point.

We definitely need clarification on this!
kreativeimages's Avatar kreativeimages 12:13 PM 02-27-2009
Quick question??

After calibration on the Denon 3808ci, I used a SPL meter to hit 75db on all speakers. Problem is that the subwoofer trim level on the menu had to be cranked up to 10+ to hit 70db.

Do this mean I have to turn up the sub a litte more and then try re-running Audyssey once more?

Using a SVS PC12 Plus sub, the gain knob his around the 09:30 position, this is the position used when Audssey was ran.

Thanks
SoundofMind's Avatar SoundofMind 12:29 PM 02-27-2009
Quote:
Originally Posted by kreativeimages View Post

After calibration on the Denon 3808ci, I used a SPL meter to hit 75db on all speakers. Problem is that the subwoofer trim level on the menu had to be cranked up to 10+ to hit 70db.


1. Please post your individual channel results from autosetup. Was sub trim in the AVR set to +12dB by autosetup?
2. Why would you do that whole SPL thing?
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