"Official" Audyssey thread (FAQ in post #51779) - Page 415 - AVS Forum
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post #12421 of 71913 Old 03-06-2009, 08:25 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LarryChanin View Post


Does MultEQ work just on correcting for the room's modal response, or could it also correct for comb filtering induced by a reflective coffee table?

Thanks.

Larry

Larry,

MultEQ will correct for reflections at higher frequencies such as those from a coffee table

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post #12422 of 71913 Old 03-06-2009, 08:41 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LarryChanin View Post

I'm just saying don't put a large, flat reflective surface between the front speaker array and the primary listening location of a home listening environment and expect to get Audyssey to perform at its best.

That's true. MultEQ will do the best it can, but it will always do better if physical room problems are addressed first.

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post #12423 of 71913 Old 03-06-2009, 11:10 AM
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Hi all,

I've been reading this forum for a long time with a great degree of interest. I own the Phase Technology dARTS system, which comprises a 5.2 channel system (two subs) plus digital amplifier. The amplifier incorporates the pro version of Audyssey MultEQ. The preamp is the Onkyo PR- SC885P, which incidentally has the AVR-level Audyssey MultEQ. This is of course defeated in order to use the pro Audyssey in the dARTS amplifier. Due to an affiliation with Phase Technology, I also have access to a pro calibration kit so that I can do my own calibrations. I of course have read the Audyssey setup guide created by this forum and have followed the guidelines as much as possible.

The calibration I did several months ago used 12 positions (8 as recommended by the setup guide, plus 4 more contained in the boundaries of the same area). I had noticed over the past months that the tonal quality across the front channels was not consistent, and this was mostly apparent when human voices panned across the front stage.

In an attempt to correct the situation, I just did a recalibration this morning with 9 positions clustered around the main listening area, more or less as diagrammed on the setup guide. After the calibration, I entered the recommended speaker distance and level settings into the preamp (which were all quite accurate according to the SPL meter and tape measurer). When you're in the speaker level settings menu, you hear broadband noise through the speakers. As I switched the noise between the three front speakers, the shift in tonal quality was still very evident. Not only was the center channel different from the left and right channels, but the left and right channels were different from each other. The differences between the three front channels were actually less apparent to my ears when the calibration was defeated. I have not set up a rig to measure what I am hearing, but it is apparent enough just from listening.

Please see the drawing for a layout. http://img408.imageshack.us/img408/9...aterlayout.png It's not perfectly to scale, but I took great care to get speaker and listening positions as close as possible. The left and right speakers are more or less at ear height. The center speaker is below the TV and aimed up slightly so that listeners on the main couch are more or less on axis. The surround speakers are dipoles and are probably about 3 - 3.5 feet above ear level. With the microphone at ear height and pointed straight to the ceiling, the left and right speaker tweeters graze the microphone nearly perfectly, while the center speaker would be firing from below the microphone diaphragm up toward it at a shallow angle, as shown on the side view. Recognizing this, when pointing the microphone to the ceiling I err on the side of tilting the microphone toward the front of the room ever so slightly, to hopefully get the center speaker closer to grazing the mic without affecting the angle of incidence from the left and right too much. Am I being too careful here?

Does anyone have ideas as to why I'm not getting a seamless blend on the front? I have thought about maybe defeating the Audyssey in the amp and using the Audyssey in the preamp to see what happens. Hopefully I'll get a chance to do that soon. Thanks.

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post #12424 of 71913 Old 03-06-2009, 11:28 AM
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Hi Chris,
is it possible to start measurement in other place then the center of the listening area, then manually change speaker distances and crossovers which I know from previous measurements? From room equalization point of view that first position is just another sample, just like next 5 (or 7 in MultEQ XT) measurements, right?

And I still dunno for what grazing angle is Audyssey mic (or more precisely correction for the mic) calibrated. Can you provide some numbers please?

Thanks in advance
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post #12425 of 71913 Old 03-06-2009, 11:32 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bkeeler10 View Post

Please see the drawing for a layout. http://img408.imageshack.us/img408/9...aterlayout.png It's not perfectly to scale, but I took great care to get speaker and listening positions as close as possible. The left and right speakers are more or less at ear height. The center speaker is below the TV and aimed up slightly so that listeners on the main couch are more or less on axis.

Is your center speaker "in" a shelf/cabinet that might be coloring the sound? How is the blend w/o Audyssey engaged?
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post #12426 of 71913 Old 03-06-2009, 11:33 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by novcze View Post

Hi Chris,
is it possible to start measurement in other place then the center of the listening area, then manually change speaker distances and crossovers which I know from previous measurements?

Why would you want to do this?
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post #12427 of 71913 Old 03-06-2009, 11:45 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by audyssey View Post

I don't really know the answer to that. Must have to do with OSD or some other decision by the manufacturer. Some decide not to show any graphs...

Thanx Kg
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post #12428 of 71913 Old 03-06-2009, 11:49 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gary J View Post

I visited the Ryman Auditorium (the original Grand Ole Opry) in Nashville last year which is billed as the second best acoustical venue in the country after the Morman Tabernacle. Hard surfaces (though curved) everywhere including the seats. I guess it is the reverberant effects of the HT that accounts for the difference.

There is the significant matter of the distances involved.

BTW, who rated those places as best acoustical venues? It is very dependent on the type of performance involved.

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post #12429 of 71913 Old 03-06-2009, 11:56 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kal Rubinson View Post

There is the significant matter of the distances involved.

That's what I meant by reverb affects.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kal Rubinson View Post


BTW, who rated those places as best acoustical venues? It is very dependent on the type of performance involved.

Dunno. The head Morman and head Opry guy I guess.
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post #12430 of 71913 Old 03-06-2009, 12:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gary J View Post

That's what I meant by reverb affects.

What I meant was that there are FR changes with distances of the order you get in concert halls but not significant with domestic dimensions. So the reflections (reverb?) are more delayed and have different spectral qualities.

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post #12431 of 71913 Old 03-06-2009, 12:09 PM
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Chris,

Somebody mentioned AUDYSSEY DSX in another thread, can you fill us in?

Brad
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post #12432 of 71913 Old 03-06-2009, 12:16 PM
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I know Audyssey is intended for movie soundtracks, where it does seem very good to me. But does anybody else notice that with DynamicEQ engaged, most other sources (especially stereo) seem very heavily-weighted towards the backs/surrounds? In the event others don't notice that, what could make it so rear-oriented? Thanks.
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post #12433 of 71913 Old 03-06-2009, 12:23 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cfraser View Post

I know Audyssey is intended for movie soundtracks, where it does seem very good to me. But does anybody else notice that with DynamicEQ engaged, most other sources (especially stereo) seem very heavily-weighted towards the backs/surrounds? In the event others don't notice that, what could make it so rear-oriented? Thanks.

Little or no mixing studio standards for other than movie soundtracks.
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post #12434 of 71913 Old 03-06-2009, 12:25 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cfraser View Post

But does anybody else notice that with DynamicEQ engaged, most other sources (especially stereo) seem very heavily-weighted towards the backs/surrounds? In the event others don't notice that, what could make it so rear-oriented? Thanks.

With stereo, no, but I use PLIIx music mode for seven channel extraction of stereo sources. With SACD, also no, again using PLIIx extraction for seven channel.

With DVD-A, yes, I have problems with the side surrounds being too loud, but the rear surrounds are not loud enough and the fronts are not loud enough either. The side surrounds seem to overpower the fronts, and they overpower the rear surrounds so much that I can't hear the rear surrounds at all... Consequently I haven't been listening to much DVD-A, but thankfully I don't have many of those anyway since I primarily chose SACD over DVD-A except where I couldn't get the same material on both formats.

Actually, I'm not sure DVD-A is a problem anymore either. I have moved the side speakers slightly forward of the listening position since my last test of DVD-A, so consequently both SACD and DVD-A, as well as stereo, might all be better now than they were previously. The reason for this change was because my front speakers are so far forward of the couch and the rear surrounds are fairly close to the couch, while the side surrounds are right next to the couch, so I wanted to make both the tweeter dispersion more diffuse to lighten the localization and make the stereo imaging between the fronts and sides stronger simultaneously. This worked excellently for creating a more seamless surround field...

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post #12435 of 71913 Old 03-06-2009, 12:43 PM
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^ Yes, PLIIx with stereo music sources and DynamicEQ does sound more balanced than most other 7ch extraction formats.

But what I was sort of getting at, is why do the surrounds especially get boosted so much in volume compared to the fronts? It doesn't make "sense" to me. What does it have to do with the "Dynamic" part of the EQ? It sounds fine/balanced volume-wise without DynamicEQ, just plain Audyssey engaged. I'm not following why the surrounds need to be so boosted just because the volume level is below "reference" (or whatever)... I can't even tell my fronts/center are on the surrounds/backs are so loud.

Edit: perhaps I am using DynamicEQ inappropriately. Since it does actually work just fine with movie soundtracks.
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post #12436 of 71913 Old 03-06-2009, 12:48 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cfraser View Post

Edit: perhaps I am using DynamicEQ inappropriately. Since it does actually work just fine with movie soundtracks.

As many times as comments like that have been posted here, I would not be surprised if Audyssey is working on user adjustable settings for non-cinema content.
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post #12437 of 71913 Old 03-06-2009, 01:09 PM
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I have a Denon 3808ci and I was getting a clipping sound with my SV sub. I ran Audyssey all eight positions and it clips at a certain scene in a movie. Anyways I noticed in source select I had the volume up in the Denon. I turned it down and it does not clip anymore, and sounds good. Do I need to run Audyssey again since I changed the volume in source select in the Denon? My guess is, hopefully I do not have to rerun Audyssey. thanks

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post #12438 of 71913 Old 03-06-2009, 01:24 PM
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I have been listening to music with my new Onkyo 876 for a few weeks without any Audyssey but with speaker levels, distance and bass management set manually. I wanted to get a sense of the unprocessed sound.

I ran Audyssey today. I definitely prefer the flat setting for music. Using the Reference curve has taken the high frequency air out of the music. I have taller than usual speakers, 6'+ with the top 45" being ribbon tweeters.

I positioned the mic pointing straight up but about 3"-4" above ear height, placing the horizontal axis in the vertical middle of the ribbons. I used 8 positions.

I have not used the receiver for movies as yet and cannot comment on how it sounds with Audyssey Reference engaged for movies.

The main problem with the Onkyo is that you cannot just manually select which Audyssey curve you want as it is applied automatically. Thankfully, on the Onkyo 876 thread, Ricardi posted the curves used with all the listening modes (Flat is used just with 5 different Thx Music modes and 4 Thx Game modes--that's it). So to use the flat curve, I am using DPL IIx+Thx Music. Or listening with Direct with no processing at all.

I also find that the bass is boosted at my normal listening level. I have Dynamic Volume turned Off and the receiver is at Audyssey Dynamic EQ and MultEQ XT by default. Is it normal to have the bass boosted, more so with the Reference curve but still with the Flat, at lower than reference listening levels with music?

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post #12439 of 71913 Old 03-06-2009, 01:27 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pepar View Post

As many times as comments like that have been posted here, I would not be surprised if Audyssey is working on user adjustable settings for non-cinema content.

I can't wait for that. That would be a very nice feature addition!

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post #12440 of 71913 Old 03-06-2009, 01:35 PM
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I can't wait for that.

The workaround is to listen to everything at reference level.
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post #12441 of 71913 Old 03-06-2009, 01:38 PM
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Originally Posted by pepar View Post

The workaround is to listen to everything at reference level.

How do you do that?

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post #12442 of 71913 Old 03-06-2009, 02:00 PM
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Quote:
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How do you do that?

Sorry, I mis-read your issue. Unless your AVR or pre/pro has different settings - I thought I remembered reading some did - your choices are "ON" and "OFF."
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post #12443 of 71913 Old 03-06-2009, 02:10 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pepar View Post

Is your center speaker "in" a shelf/cabinet that might be coloring the sound? How is the blend w/o Audyssey engaged?

No, the center speaker sits on it's own stand perhaps 2.5 feet above the floor. The TV is only a few inches from the back of the cabinet, but otherwise it is in free air. The blend with broadband noise is reasonably close without Audyssey engaged, but I haven't had a chance to test it with program material

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post #12444 of 71913 Old 03-06-2009, 02:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by novcze View Post

Hi Chris,
is it possible to start measurement in other place then the center of the listening area, then manually change speaker distances and crossovers which I know from previous measurements? From room equalization point of view that first position is just another sample, just like next 5 (or 7 in MultEQ XT) measurements, right?

And I still dunno for what grazing angle is Audyssey mic (or more precisely correction for the mic) calibrated. Can you provide some numbers please?

Thanks in advance

Yes, the speaker distances and crossovers can be changed manually.

The mic is calibrated for 90° grazing angle assuming 0° is straight ahead towards the ceiling. So, point the mic to the ceiling and keep it at the same height as the tweeter. Obviously not all tweeters are at ear height. If that's the case then we recommend going with ear height. But the best performance for the mic (and for your speakers) is when the tweeters are at ear height.

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post #12445 of 71913 Old 03-06-2009, 02:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Brad/Viper-Fan View Post

Chris,

Somebody mentioned AUDYSSEY DSX in another thread, can you fill us in?

Not yet, but soon

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post #12446 of 71913 Old 03-06-2009, 02:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cfraser View Post

^ Yes, PLIIx with stereo music sources and DynamicEQ does sound more balanced than most other 7ch extraction formats.

But what I was sort of getting at, is why do the surrounds especially get boosted so much in volume compared to the fronts? It doesn't make "sense" to me. What does it have to do with the "Dynamic" part of the EQ? It sounds fine/balanced volume-wise without DynamicEQ, just plain Audyssey engaged. I'm not following why the surrounds need to be so boosted just because the volume level is below "reference" (or whatever)... I can't even tell my fronts/center are on the surrounds/backs are so loud.

Edit: perhaps I am using DynamicEQ inappropriately. Since it does actually work just fine with movie soundtracks.

Dynamic EQ does two things:

1) it adjusts the frequency response (the entire range, not just the bass) based on what the reference response is, where you have your volume control, AND what is happening to the content in real time. This is to compensate for the change in human hearing as the volume is lowered

2) it adjusts the level of the surrounds to maintain surround impression. As the volume is lowered we lose the sensation of surround faster than the front channels and Dynamic EQ makes up for that.

Of course, if you are starting with 2 channel content and then artificially creating the surround content via some upmixing method then your results will vary greatly since there is no "known" surround reference level to go from.

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post #12447 of 71913 Old 03-06-2009, 02:31 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Brad/Viper-Fan View Post

Chris,

Somebody mentioned AUDYSSEY DSX in another thread, can you fill us in?

Here is a hint: http://surround2011.blogspot.com/200...yssey-dsx.html

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post #12448 of 71913 Old 03-06-2009, 02:35 PM
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Keep the table there during calibration. That's the only way Audyssey will be able to compensate for it.

Perhap someone should make an audiophile coffee table made from acoustically transparent metal mesh?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike25690 View Post

I have a large, solid wood coffee table just in front of my main listening spot; about 4' x 2', and 18" high; I'm sure it's not as reflective as glass, but I wonder if removing it during a calibration will help, especially because my center channel is about a foot below the TV, and behind a cloth-covered cabinet door.

I'll have to give this a try.

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post #12449 of 71913 Old 03-06-2009, 02:40 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rveras View Post

Here is a hint: http://surround2011.blogspot.com/200...yssey-dsx.html


Looks like something you put in place then build a room around it.
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post #12450 of 71913 Old 03-06-2009, 02:42 PM
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Looks like something you put in place then build a room around it.

Tell me about!!! I guess am out
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