"Official" Audyssey thread (FAQ in post #51779) - Page 47 - AVS Forum
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post #1381 of 71792 Old 02-16-2008, 03:56 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by catapult View Post

Chris, you have the patience of a saint! Most of these questions have nothing to do with Audyssey but rather basic audio setup...

+1
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post #1382 of 71792 Old 02-16-2008, 06:33 AM
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+2......Very helpful thread!

Steve
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post #1383 of 71792 Old 02-16-2008, 07:03 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MDJ51 View Post

Denon 788 If I manually set up speakers to the way I like them. Then use Audessy will that mess up my manual settings or make them better in other areas? I find front speakers overwhelm the surrounds so I made surround louder. Mainly for music purposes. Have all speakers set to small(though fronts are big towers) with sub.

Well, you can reset those manual settings (distance, level) after you use Audyssey if you wish.

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post #1384 of 71792 Old 02-16-2008, 08:21 AM
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Hello Chris,

I have an Onkyo 805 powering a full set of Definitive speakers. When I use the EQ, there seems to be a rather pronounced hump in the midrange. The sound is very bloated and overall unpleasant to listen to as compared to turning it off.

So far I've tried:
Running all 8 tests. I moved the mic around my listening area (I have only one seat)
Dead silence, no appliances running, tv off, etc.
Playing with the tone controls to get more of the curve I want. I was able to get some of the highs back, but that hump in the midrange is still there.

The four things I can imagine could be going on:
1. Something wrong with the receiver's dsp.
2. My room is so acoustically bad that it confuses the system. (Here's the layout if it helps)

3. I'm used to bad FR and having it neutral is unpleasant to me. I could see this...
4. My speakers are no good. I doubt that, there are far worse speakers out there.


Of course, if I can ever get a graph, I'll be able to narrow down where the problem is.

Thanks for any input. I'v been fiddling with it for a few weeks to no avail.

Onkyo TX SR805 | DVD-1920 | Optoma HD70 | PlayStation 3 | Definitive Technology ProTower 400 | Pro Center C2 | BP2x | Pro Monitor 100 | Klipsch RSW-10
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post #1385 of 71792 Old 02-16-2008, 08:41 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by yourgrandma View Post

Hello Chris,

I have an Onkyo 805 powering a full set of Definitive speakers. When I use the EQ, there seems to be a rather pronounced hump in the midrange. The sound is very bloated and overall unpleasant to listen to as compared to turning it off.

So far I've tried:
Running all 8 tests. I moved the mic around my listening area (I have only one seat)
Dead silence, no appliances running, tv off, etc.
Playing with the tone controls to get more of the curve I want. I was able to get some of the highs back, but that hump in the midrange is still there.

The four things I can imagine could be going on:
1. Something wrong with the receiver's dsp.
2. My room is so acoustically bad that it confuses the system. (Here's the layout if it helps)

3. I'm used to bad FR and having it neutral is unpleasant to me. I could see this...
4. My speakers are no good. I doubt that, there are far worse speakers out there.


Of course, if I can ever get a graph, I'll be able to narrow down where the problem is.

Thanks for any input. I'v been fiddling with it for a few weeks to no avail.

Hi,

I need a little more info to try and figure this out.

Can you show me on your diagram where you are placing the mic? Also, what range are you talking about when you say "midrange"? That's usually centered around 2 kHz, but you also said "bloated" which usually refers to midbass around 250-500 Hz.

Is your center channel in a cabinet? And is the issue you are having also there on stereo content from the L and R speakers?

Finally, when you listen to movies are you in THX mode?

Chris

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post #1386 of 71792 Old 02-16-2008, 04:23 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by catapult View Post

Chris, you have the patience of a saint! Most of these questions have nothing to do with Audyssey but rather basic audio setup. Might I suggest the Audio Theory, Setup and Chat subforum for people who don't understand the basics of bass management and/or hi-rez audio signals?

Agreed. Thanks for your patience.
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post #1387 of 71792 Old 02-16-2008, 06:03 PM
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When I first set up my Onkyo 805 (before Xmas), I played the 300 DVD and in the loud dynamic passages a speaker gave out intermittent very loud "snapping" or "cracking" sounds. Very scarey and I was certain there must have been damage to the speaker. However, the problem seemed to disappear and all the speakers appeared undamaged.

Yesterday, I re-ran Audyssey utilising a few suggestions I picked up on the Audyssey thread. Now I get a wonderful dynamic sound, but, in loud explosive passages (Stardust DVD), the snapping/cracking sound is back worse than ever. Not only does it wreck the movie but I'm petrified of blowing a speaker. This time it definitely seems to be coming from my right front.

The only way I seem to stop the problem is to have the volume at -20db !!! Before and after running Audyssey I trimmed the volume 0db to 75db on all speakers and sub with a RS spl meter. All the trims are +or- 2db.

I've searched the Onkyo 805 thread and the Onkyo 705 thread and can't find an answer, or even anyone who has had this problem. I've checked all speaker connections, but can't see anything obvious.

Can anyone help or suggest a solution?

I have also posted this on the 705 & 805 threads.
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post #1388 of 71792 Old 02-16-2008, 09:18 PM
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Nordo -

We need a bit more info to narrow down the potential causes.

Does the crackling / poping noise happen with Audyssey turned off?

If you swap the cables between the right and left speakers does the problem move or stay in the same speaker?

- Tim
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post #1389 of 71792 Old 02-16-2008, 09:47 PM
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what happ if from audyssey sub out i use a rca split and give signal in 2 subs
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post #1390 of 71792 Old 02-17-2008, 12:16 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by argi View Post

what happ if from audyssey sub out i use a rca split and give signal in 2 subs

This matter has been discussed throughly before.

ciao
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post #1391 of 71792 Old 02-17-2008, 12:39 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hifisponge View Post

Nordo -

We need a bit more info to narrow down the potential causes.

Does the crackling / poping noise happen with Audyssey turned off?

If you swap the cables between the right and left speakers does the problem move or stay in the same speaker?

- Tim

OK, I'll do some A/B testing and get back to you.
Thanks
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Following Audyssey’s first complete pass to recognize all speakers in my system, it displays a screen that shows Speaker Detect Error for just my side surround speakers, and asks if I want to “cancel or retry.” I have (re)tried Audyssey several times and have changed the location of the mic (which is mounted on a tripod pointing to the ceiling) but always get the same error. What gives?
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post #1393 of 71792 Old 02-17-2008, 08:34 AM
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When I ran Audyssey with my Denon 2807 I had the choice of Audyssey, front and, I believe, flat. With my Integra 9.8 I can only choose between Audyssey and nothing. Am I missing something? Or is this a choice by Onkyo to have eight listening positions instead of the six available with the Denon--in other words a choice by the manufacturer about the number of filters vs. the number of listening positions?

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post #1394 of 71792 Old 02-17-2008, 08:43 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jcpom View Post

Following Audyssey's first pass to recognize speakers in my system, it displays a screen that shows Speaker Detect Error for just my side surround speakers, and asks if I want to cancel or retry. I have (re)tried Audyssey several times and have changed the location of the mic (which is mounted on a tripod pointing to the ceiling) but always get the same error. What gives?

How many speakers do you have and how are they connected?

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http://www.stereophile.com/category/music-round

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post #1395 of 71792 Old 02-17-2008, 08:43 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nordo View Post

When I first set up my Onkyo 805 (before Xmas), I played the 300 DVD and in the loud dynamic passages a speaker gave out intermittent very loud "snapping" or "cracking" sounds. Very scarey and I was certain there must have been damage to the speaker. However, the problem seemed to disappear and all the speakers appeared undamaged.

Yesterday, I re-ran Audyssey utilising a few suggestions I picked up on the Audyssey thread. Now I get a wonderful dynamic sound, but, in loud explosive passages (Stardust DVD), the snapping/cracking sound is back worse than ever. Not only does it wreck the movie but I'm petrified of blowing a speaker. This time it definitely seems to be coming from my right front.

The only way I seem to stop the problem is to have the volume at -20db !!! Before and after running Audyssey I trimmed the volume 0db to 75db on all speakers and sub with a RS spl meter. All the trims are +or- 2db.

I've searched the Onkyo 805 thread and the Onkyo 705 thread and can't find an answer, or even anyone who has had this problem. I've checked all speaker connections, but can't see anything obvious.

Can anyone help or suggest a solution?

I have also posted this on the 705 & 805 threads.

What speakers are they? They may be inadequate for the levels you want or you may be crossing them over too low.

Kal Rubinson

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Senior Contributing Editor, Stereophile
http://www.stereophile.com/category/music-round

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post #1396 of 71792 Old 02-17-2008, 08:46 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mziegler View Post

When I ran Audyssey with my Denon 2807 I had the choice of Audyssey, front and, I believe, flat. With my Integra 9.8 I can only choose between Audyssey and nothing. Am I missing something? Or is this a choice by Onkyo to have eight listening positions instead of the six available with the Denon--in other words a choice by the manufacturer about the number of filters vs. the number of listening positions?

Manufacturers choice about how much DSP horsepower they allot to Audyssey and what features they choose. Onkyo/integra offers no choice of curve unless you use the Pro installation/setup.

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http://www.stereophile.com/category/music-round

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post #1397 of 71792 Old 02-17-2008, 08:49 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kal Rubinson View Post

How many speakers do you have and how are they connected?

I have 2 full range mains, 1 center, 1 powered sub, 2 sides and 1 rear (the sides and rear are identical in-walls.)
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post #1398 of 71792 Old 02-17-2008, 09:27 AM
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Originally Posted by audyssey View Post

Are you sure-sure that the front left speaker is connected to the front left speaker connectors on the back of the Onkyo?

When you face the back of the 605, the connectors for the Surround Back speakers are on the left, followed by the surround speakers, and then the front speakers on the right. I have heard from other users that have mistakenly assumed that the left-most connectors are for the front speakers.

Sorry for asking the obvious, but hopefully that's all it is...

Chris

Yes...after I ran Audyssey it gave me the results for all my speakers for full band. I, however, changed them to a particular frequency. I dont think the 905 has a small designation as other receivers. But once you adjust thefrequency, its like you saying they are small..But even after that..for music, I have to go from -15db to 0db in order to get decent base from the sub.
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post #1399 of 71792 Old 02-17-2008, 09:31 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jcpom View Post

I have 2 full range mains, 1 center, 1 powered sub, 2 sides and 1 rear (the sides and rear are identical in-walls.)

Are the sides connected to the proper terminals on the AVR? If they are connected to the rear terminals, you will get this message. Another possibility is something defective in the in-wall wiring or the speakers themselves.

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post #1400 of 71792 Old 02-17-2008, 12:08 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kal Rubinson View Post

Are the sides connected to the proper terminals on the AVR? If they are connected to the rear terminals, you will get this message. Another possibility is something defective in the in-wall wiring or the speakers themselves.

I get audio correctly in all speakers, it just displays msg re: side surrounds on the screen right after it pings my sub. My Pioneer Elite's "auto calibration", which is NOT Audyssey, runs just fine.
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post #1401 of 71792 Old 02-17-2008, 01:29 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kal Rubinson View Post

What speakers are they? They may be inadequate for the levels you want or you may be crossing them over too low.

Thanks Kal
The speakers are diy using high quality matched Vifa drivers (8" & 1" - can't find all the info on them), with 3rd order Xovers, in solid sealed enclosures (spent months on The Bass List and using The Loudspeaker Design Cookbook). They have always performed well with other amps, and with loud dynamic sound tracks (LOTRs, X-Men, etc). Can't remember what the tested f3 was, but Audyssey crosses them at 150Hz (I haven't changed this setting).

With Audyssey testing, I start (and finish) with trims adjusted to 75db (and volume at 0). However the resultant volume was a bit loud for me. But, by the time I turn the volume down to -20db to get rid of the snapping, all the impact has gone.

The snapping sound is not unlike the sound you would hear when rock bands would blow up their equipment at the end of a show.
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post #1402 of 71792 Old 02-17-2008, 04:08 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jcpom View Post

Following Audyssey’s first complete pass to recognize all speakers in my system, it displays a screen that shows Speaker Detect Error for just my side surround speakers, and asks if I want to “cancel or retry.” I have (re)tried Audyssey several times and have changed the location of the mic (which is mounted on a tripod pointing to the ceiling) but always get the same error. What gives?

The most common surround speaker designation is L Surround, R Surround, L Back Surround, and R Back Surround. What are the labels on the terminals on the back of the receiver to which you have your L Surround and R Surround speakers connected (I believe these are what you are calling "side")? Also, what model receiver do you have?

From your description (and as Kal pointed out), it sounds like you may have the L and R Surround connected to the Back Surround terminals and so MultEQ sees a gap at the L or R surround position and reports it.

Chris

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post #1403 of 71792 Old 02-17-2008, 04:12 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nordo View Post

Thanks Kal
The speakers are diy using high quality matched Vifa drivers (8" & 1" - can't find all the info on them), with 3rd order Xovers, in solid sealed enclosures (spent months on The Bass List and using The Loudspeaker Design Cookbook). They have always performed well with other amps, and with loud dynamic sound tracks (LOTRs, X-Men, etc). Can't remember what the tested f3 was, but Audyssey crosses them at 150Hz (I haven't changed this setting).

With Audyssey testing, I start (and finish) with trims adjusted to 75db (and volume at 0). However the resultant volume was a bit loud for me. But, by the time I turn the volume down to -20db to get rid of the snapping, all the impact has gone.

The snapping sound is not unlike the sound you would hear when rock bands would blow up their equipment at the end of a show.

Nordo,

The symptoms you describe are typical of a blown driver (midrange or tweeter). If it's gone, MultEQ may think that that frequency range is low and tries to boost it. I would suggest playing some low level pink noise and then carefully placing your ear up against each driver (while blocking the other with a pillow or similar) to make sure that they are not damaged.

Do this with MultEQ off and please make sure the pink noise is at a low level.

Chris

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post #1404 of 71792 Old 02-17-2008, 04:15 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by grodri02 View Post

Yes...after I ran Audyssey it gave me the results for all my speakers for full band. I, however, changed them to a particular frequency. I dont think the 905 has a small designation as other receivers. But once you adjust thefrequency, its like you saying they are small..But even after that..for music, I have to go from -15db to 0db in order to get decent base from the sub.

You mentioned that this happens when you play iPod content. Do you, perhaps, have any EQ enabled on the iPod? What happens if you play a CD in stereo?

Chris

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post #1405 of 71792 Old 02-17-2008, 04:21 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nordo View Post

The speakers are diy using high quality matched Vifa drivers (8" & 1" - can't find all the info on them), with 3rd order Xovers, in solid sealed enclosures (spent months on The Bass List and using The Loudspeaker Design Cookbook). They have always performed well with other amps, and with loud dynamic sound tracks (LOTRs, X-Men, etc). Can't remember what the tested f3 was, but Audyssey crosses them at 150Hz (I haven't changed this setting).

Seems like Audyssey detects a substantial upper bass roll-off and may be compensating for it with a boost that the speakers cannot handle. Have you ever measured their real in-room FR?

Kal Rubinson

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Senior Contributing Editor, Stereophile
http://www.stereophile.com/category/music-round

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post #1406 of 71792 Old 02-17-2008, 04:21 PM
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Onkyo Pro 885 with a Velodyne SMS-1: Sub Distance problem

Question
I did two tests with Audyssey. On the Sub, one came out at 18 feet and the second at 30 feet (linier distance is 12 feet) the maximum delta on distance was less then 3 inches on the other channels. I am sure the issue is that the sub is behind the left speaker.

I would rather take my chances with an edited 12ft distance then the Audyssey's 20ft or 30ft distance. Does that make sense?

-Room is 15ft wide x 25ft long.

-listening area is 10 feet wide and the couch is little over 9 feet from the center channel.

-Speaker area is some what symmetrical

-Subwoofer is behind the left speaker, 3 to 4 inches away from the wall and about 2 to 3 inches from my Cabinet. The back of the sub is 18 inches from the wall and 6 inches behind the Left speaker. Also, it is angled about 15 degrees towards the center listening position (the sub was angled during the setup of my SMS-1, it sounded a bit better angled.)

Note: I was able to get a flat response with the SMS-1, sub eq.

Below are pictures of my room. The Small trees have been removed from each side of the cabinets. These pics's were taken before I place the sub behind the left speaker.

pic of the front L-C-R speakers:
http://gallery.avsforum.com/showphot...ppuser/7494841

pic showing old room setup, but show couch placement and right surround speaker. The left Surround is symmetrical with the right (left is not in pic) Note coffee table remove since pic:
http://gallery.avsforum.com/showphot...ppuser/7494841

Your thoughts?

Thanks
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post #1407 of 71792 Old 02-17-2008, 04:33 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kal Rubinson View Post

Seems like Audyssey detects a substantial upper bass roll-off and may be compensating for it with a boost that the speakers cannot handle. Have you ever measured their real in-room FR?

Not possible unless there is a damaged woofer. Audyssey does not apply boost below the -3 dB rolloff point of the speaker. Even if the speaker only goes down to 150 Hz, MultEQ will not boost below there. The real in-room FR, as measured by MultEQ, is what determines this limit.

However, in a 3-way speaker, if the midrange is damaged then Audyssey will try to compensate for the hole in the response by applying the max allowable boost.

Chris

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post #1408 of 71792 Old 02-17-2008, 04:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by B&W700guy View Post

Onkyo Pro 885 with a Velodyne SMS-1: Sub Distance problem

Question
I did two tests with Audyssey. On the Sub, one came out at 18 feet and the second at 30 feet (linier distance is 12 feet) the maximum delta on distance was less then 3 inches on the other channels. I am sure the issue is that the sub is behind the left speaker.

I would rather take my chances with an edited 12ft distance then the Audyssey's 20ft or 30ft distance. Does that make sense?

-Room is 15ft wide x 25ft long.

-listening area is 10 feet wide and the couch is little over 9 feet from the center channel.

-Speaker area is some what symmetrical

-Subwoofer is behind the left speaker, 3 to 4 inches away from the wall and about 2 to 3 inches from my Cabinet. The back of the sub is 18 inches from the wall and 6 inches behind the Left speaker. Also, it is angled about 15 degrees towards the center listening position (the sub was angled during the setup of my SMS-1, it sounded a bit better angled.)

Note: I was able to get a flat response with the SMS-1, sub eq.

Below are pictures of my room. The Small trees have been removed from each side of the cabinets. These pics's were taken before I place the sub behind the left speaker.

pic of the front L-C-R speakers:
http://gallery.avsforum.com/showphot...ppuser/7494841

pic showing old room setup, but show couch placement and right surround speaker. The left Surround is symmetrical with the right (left is not in pic) Note coffee table remove since pic:
http://gallery.avsforum.com/showphot...ppuser/7494841

Your thoughts?

Thanks

Hi,

This is very common. The SMS-1 has a DSP in it to perform the subwoofer EQ. All DSP processing introduces delay due to the way sound is processed in blocks through the DSP. So, the sound coming from your subwoofer is delayed both by the physical distance and the delay in the DSP. Furthermore, any lowpass filter that is engaged on the back of the sub will also add its own delay. When you add all these up, it is very common for MultEQ to report a distance longer than the actual physical distance.

Our recommendation is to always leave it to the distance reported as that best compensates for all the delays in the path.

The issue to figure out is why it is reporting different distances when you run it. Can you please tell us what the difference was between the time you got 18 ft and the time you got 30 ft.? My guess is that 18 ft. is the correct number.

Chris

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post #1409 of 71792 Old 02-17-2008, 04:41 PM
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Not possible unless there is a damaged woofer. Audyssey does not apply boost below the -3 dB rolloff point of the speaker. Even if the speaker only goes down to 150 Hz, MultEQ will not boost below there. The real in-room FR, as measured by MultEQ, is what determines this limit.

Since these are home-made IB systems, isn't it possible for there to be a significant suck-out or suck-outs in the upper bass that could elicit such a scenario? I was not suggesting that it was boosting below 150Hz but, rather, that the 150Hz crossover was an indication of other problems. After all, an 8" woofer of VIFA quality should not have a -3dB point of 150Hz unless there's something amiss in the system design/construction.

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post #1410 of 71792 Old 02-17-2008, 04:48 PM
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Originally Posted by Kal Rubinson View Post

Since these are home-made IB systems, isn't it possible for there to be a significant suck-out or suck-outs in the upper bass that could elicit such a scenario? I was not suggesting that it was boosting below 150Hz but, rather, that the 150Hz crossover was an indication of other problems. After all, an 8" woofer of VIFA quality should not have a -3dB point of 150Hz unless there's something amiss in the system design/construction.

Ah yes. Certainly possible. I missed your point. The one other time I have seen this in a home made speaker, the woofer was boosted by 10 dB or so (higher sensitivity) and the poor midrange looked like it was non-existent even though it was not damaged. MultEQ was trying to make up for that by boosting it and causing it to clip.

Chris

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