"Official" Audyssey thread (FAQ in post #51779) - Page 488 - AVS Forum
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Old 05-17-2009, 09:11 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JimP View Post

Also, if you upgrade to the pro Audyssey firmware with the Denon 3808, does that problem go away?

There is no Pro firmware upgrade. AudysseyPro is an external software program.

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Old 05-17-2009, 09:36 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kal Rubinson View Post

There is no Pro firmware upgrade. AudysseyPro is an external software program.

Understood.

I'm just wondering if anyone with this problem had upgraded to Audyssey Pro and had the problem go away.

That would at least tell you that the problem was firmware or something else.

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Old 05-17-2009, 10:10 AM
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Originally Posted by Peter Galbavy View Post

I know I am restating the obvious here, but has anyone (apart from Chris) got *DENON* to recognise there may be a problem with their Audyssey implementation below the 20Hz point ?

No I haven't contacted Denon regarding Audyssey over boosting the area below 20Hz for my sub. At the recommendation of many other forum members, I came here with my questions. BTW the way I am not located in Australia.

It seems that since I am not singing praises of Audyssey or inquiring about the latest Audyssey products in the works, I am not going to get any helpful comments or suggestions... only side step comments to selected questions and/or comments. It has been very frustrating posting in this thread.

It may be hard for some people to say, but to me it seems that Audyssey has it's limitations.

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Old 05-17-2009, 10:22 AM
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I have run Audyssey and it says my center channel speaker is out of phase. Does this mean it is wired wrong internally? I've tried searching but this thread is big...
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Old 05-17-2009, 10:24 AM
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Originally Posted by counsil View Post

Unfortunately I can't modify the shelf in the entertainment center to allow me to move the speaker forward. I could place the speaker in front of the TV, but it would stick out and be unstable.

Here is what I found when I was researching this particular speaker...

"The revolutionary C/L/R2500 features a powerful built-in 8 inch powered subwoofer driven by a 150 Watt digital amplifier. Its upward-firing long-throw woofer only requires 1" of clearance, so it works perfectly whether you open-mount it or put it in a cabinet."

Interesting how they marketed only needing 1" of clearance.

Well I figured out how to 'help' Audyssey correctly calibrate my center speaker. All I had to do was fold up a small cloth rug and place it behind the center channel. I guess Audyssey was hearing vibrations (or something like that) from the center channel being placed in the shelf.

Def Tech was correct when they mentioned that there only needs to be 1" of clearance on the top of the speaker.

To recap. Audyssey needed for me to pull my mains 1 more foot from the wall (they were already 1 foot away) in order for it to correctly calibrate them. Since I couldn't do the same for my center, I had to improvise.

Hopefully this helps others out with bipolar towers and speakers with builtin subs.

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Old 05-17-2009, 10:28 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by madcutter View Post

I have run Audyssey and it says my center channel speaker is out of phase. Does this mean it is wired wrong internally? I've tried searching but this thread is big...

I had the same problems (with both my center and mains). I wouldn't just ignore the error because in my case Audyssey was making huge, sharp, and unnecessary corrections in the 60 Hz area. REW confirmed the corrections were unnecessary and should have never been made.

You might read my post above.

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Old 05-17-2009, 10:51 AM
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Originally Posted by counsil View Post

No I haven't contacted Denon regarding Audyssey over boosting the area below 20Hz for my sub. At the recommendation of many other forum members, I came here with my questions. BTW the way I am not located in Australia.

It seems that since I am not singing praises of Audyssey or inquiring about the latest Audyssey products in the works, I am not going to get any helpful comments or suggestions... only side step comments to selected questions and/or comments. It has been very frustrating posting in this thread.

It may be hard for some people to say, but to me it seems that Audyssey has it's limitations.

To the best of my understanding, this is the cause of the issue you are having:

MultEQ measures your sub and creates a filter for it. As you can see from others who have posted data there is a region of cuts and boosts above 20 Hz or so.

After the filter is created, MultEQ "moves it" up or down in level to meet another requirement: MultEQ an and MultEQ off should sound close in level. This last part may be what is causing the issue. If the filter isn't normalized then there will be a drop in level when you turn on MultEQ. But, the normalization process in some of the posted cases seems to elevate the level below 15 Hz or so.

In most cases, I would think that since the sub response is significantly rolled off below 15 Hz (30-40 dB or more), the additional 9 dB of boost due to the upward shift of the filter would not be heard. At least that was the result of our testing... Now, it appears that there are some cases where some combination of these processes is causing the issue you are having. What is strange about this is that we have not been able to reproduce it even when using the exact combination of AVR and subwoofer (obviously in a different room). We will continue to try and identify the issue and I will post any findings here.

BTW, I don't consider this forum a place to sing the praises of Audyssey. I have tried very hard to answer or diagnose every single issue that comes up.

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Old 05-17-2009, 10:54 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by counsil View Post

No I haven't contacted Denon regarding Audyssey over boosting the area below 20Hz for my sub. At the recommendation of many other forum members, I came here with my questions.

It is hard to respond usefully when few of us have experienced that problem. So, although I have used MultEQ XT with and without the Pro software, I cannot say whether the problem described is affected.

Frankly, the only source for help would be either Denon or Audyssey and, imho, only if they can duplicate the problem.

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Old 05-17-2009, 10:55 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by madcutter View Post

I have run Audyssey and it says my center channel speaker is out of phase. Does this mean it is wired wrong internally? I've tried searching but this thread is big...

See the SetUp Guide referenced in the first post rather than skimming the entire thread.

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Old 05-17-2009, 10:57 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by madcutter View Post

I have run Audyssey and it says my center channel speaker is out of phase. Does this mean it is wired wrong internally? I've tried searching but this thread is big...

After it has been verified that the speaker is hooked up correctly, most of the time ignoring the error message it is exactly what to do. There have been a few people who have actually had incorrect internal speaker wiring. But again, from what I've seen, 98% ignore it and everything is peachy.
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Old 05-17-2009, 10:57 AM
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Not meaning to aggravate either side, but...

Since Chris has mentioned several times that he could not recreate the problem, perhaps you may fare better by getting together and each sending the company videos which covered: the room, equipment, configuration and wiring, set-up procedures, and measurement procedures. Otherwise, why would you expect much more of a response from the company to the continued posting of charts attempting to show a fault or problem they cannot reproduce, whatever the nature of the reason: differing expectations, communication/terminology, equipment/algorithms, set-up, etc...

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Old 05-17-2009, 11:03 AM
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I have been reading this threads for a while and broke down and got a new DENON 1909 Last week, it replaced an old yammy dsp-a1. I have set it up but am a little bit overwelmed and unsure, but I want advice on the crossover settings etc. I have old Klipsh epic cf-2 front towers, center is a KV-2 and surrounds are SB-2's and the sub is an old Polk PSW505. I did the Aud set up and I am not sure my settings are correct, here they are.

It set Front to Large which I changed to small I think?
Distance was FL 11.3 FR 11.5 Center 11.3 Surround L 9 ft Surround r was 10 feet and Sub was 3.4 feet.

Channel levels are FL +5.0db, FR +3.0db Center +3.5db, SL +2.0db, SR +3.0db and sw -1.0

Crossover frequencys there was none from the fronts when set to large after changing to small it was 40hz, center small 60hz, surround small 60hz and LFE was 80hz.

Do I change any of these settings, as I am not sure. And if I change manually how do I overwrite or save it?

The 1909 matches a new Pioneer Kuro 60 incher calibrated professionally by D-Nice (the Plasma Guru on this site). Looks great now I need sound to match.

I do want new speakers as the epic's are old but for the time being until I decide what speakers (reading and getting advise now) and budget, I will hold off, unless I can get a good deal. I do 60% tv/movies and 40% music.

Any help from the guru's and btw thanks for all you guys do, I got further reading here than I ever would of.


Thanks,

Roth
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Old 05-17-2009, 11:22 AM
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"Logic says that the ideal setup would be to have the Centre, Front Mains, Wides, and Heights all equidistant from the "ears" of the main listening position."

I don't follow your logic.

Delay settings will take care of differing distances.

It seems a lot more important to me to have the sound coming from the right direction.

Chris?

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Old 05-17-2009, 12:52 PM
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I have 4 B&W DS7's for my surrounds and they are switchable between monopole and dipole modes depending on what type of material I am listening to.

What should I have them switched to for Audyssey calibration?
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Old 05-17-2009, 12:55 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by audyssey View Post

In most cases, I would think that since the sub response is significantly rolled off below 15 Hz (30-40 dB or more), the additional 9 dB of boost due to the upward shift of the filter would not be heard. At least that was the result of our testing... Now, it appears that there are some cases where some combination of these processes is causing the issue you are having. What is strange about this is that we have not been able to reproduce it even when using the exact combination of AVR and subwoofer (obviously in a different room). We will continue to try and identify the issue and I will post any findings here.

Just FYI:
I have been following the discussion fairly closely as I also experienced a minimum 8 dB boost in SPL from 15-20 Hz with Audyssey on.
When on, the FR is basically flat from 15-80 Hz.
When off, the SW cutoff is 23 Hz and drops rapidly to the noise floor. Since my noise floor is only 8 dB down at these freq. I don't know if the boost is more than that. I have the Integra 9.8 so it is probably not a pre/pro, receiver or Denon issue. [I am very impressed with Audyssey's overall capabilities and this is no real problem for me as I am in the process of changing my setup to include a cutoff filter to assure that I do not have a SW bottoming problem.]
I do have clear REW measurements and will post it if you like. [I haven't posted charts yet so I need to look up how to do it.]
I just thought you all would want to get a sense of how common the issue is.
John
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Old 05-17-2009, 01:46 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by audyssey View Post

Hi Chuck,

The only way to get Audyssey Flat on the Onkyo is to engage THX and then manually turn off re-EQ. You will need to do that every time because re-EQ comes on by default when you power up the machine in THX mode.

Chris

On my new Onkyo 906, THX mode is "not available" in receiver mode, will have to check on CD input, but I assume unless there is THX material on the source this mode will NOT engage? Thus this tip will not work, if that is the case.
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Old 05-17-2009, 02:11 PM
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Originally Posted by jtalden View Post

Just FYI:
I have been following the discussion fairly closely as I also experienced a minimum 8 dB boost in SPL from 15-20 Hz with Audyssey on.
When on, the FR is basically flat from 15-80 Hz.
When off, the SW cutoff is 23 Hz and drops rapidly to the noise floor. Since my noise floor is only 8 dB down at these freq. I don't know if the boost is more than that. I have the Integra 9.8 so it is probably not a pre/pro, receiver or Denon issue. [I am very impressed with Audyssey's overall capabilities and this is no real problem for me as I am in the process of changing my setup to include a cutoff filter to assure that I do not have a SW bottoming problem.]
I do have clear REW measurements and will post it if you like. [I haven't posted charts yet so I need to look up how to do it.]
I just thought you all would want to get a sense of how common the issue is.
John

I have been doing some research (here on avs) on different types of filters. In my research I found that most people don't feel we should be using any type of subsonic filter as most subwoofers already have them built in. Here is an example that I found...

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=986399

I'll bite. What type and brand of cutoff filter are you looking at? Does it simply sit between the sub and the receiver, and not allow the low frequencies to come through? Does it change the other frequencies at all? Or in other words, will it change your frequency response? If its cheap and it doesn't adversely affect the frequency response I'll buy one. That would solve the last problem I am currently having with Audyssey.

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Old 05-17-2009, 02:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DigitalKnight View Post

I have 4 B&W DS7's for my surrounds and they are switchable between monopole and dipole modes depending on what type of material I am listening to.

What should I have them switched to for Audyssey calibration?

I would set them to the pattern that will be used most and then run Audyssey setup. I'd bet that the filters created for the two radiation patterns would be different, but there is no way to store and load different curves with the consumer version of Audyssey. But perhaps the differences would not be noticed and it won't matter one whit. Try it.
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Old 05-17-2009, 03:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by counsil View Post

I have been doing some research (here on avs) on different types of filters. In my research I found that most people don't feel we should be using any type of subsonic filter as most subwoofers already have them built in. Here is an example that I found...

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=986399

I'll bite. What type and brand of cutoff filter are you looking at? Does it simply sit between the sub and the receiver, and not allow the low frequencies to come through? Does it change the other frequencies at all? Or in other words, will it change your frequency response? If its cheap and it doesn't adversely affect the frequency response I'll buy one. That would solve the last problem I am currently having with Audyssey.

I have a DYI system that already includes a couple Behringer DCX2496's. They provide XO, EQ and delay for my main speakers. The DCX was not used in the SW channel previously however. My 2 SW's are JBL 2203H 12" drivers in 2.5 cu-ft boxes (not self powered so no built in amp or filter). With this situation I will use the DCX to apply a LR24 HP filter at 23 Hz after Audyssey setup is run.
[I think I may have bottomed the SW once or twice and this is a safe and easy change for me.]
I have no experience with the small passive filters you found. At that price point there may be no other options. They are about 1/5 the price of the DCX market price. There is no doubt an active filter available from Behringer and others in between these levels.
I don't think any active cutoff filter applied after the Audyssey setup will have any significant impact on the FR above the cutoff. With the small passive filters I would be much less confident, but they may work fine.
John
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Old 05-17-2009, 03:24 PM
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I am so glad Audyssey just works for me and I don't need any of that stuff.
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Old 05-17-2009, 04:02 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gary J View Post

I am so glad Audyssey just works for me and I don't need any of that stuff.

Audyssey is ruining my hobby. I spent many years studying and working on improving my system incrementally. Now most everyone can great results with an auto setup routine. What's the challenge in that? We need a tweekers version of Audyssey - PC software that allows some of the flexibility/features of the pro unit. That would keep me busy!
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Old 05-17-2009, 05:51 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by noah katz View Post

"The rule of thumb is "as high as possible above your front speakers"

Does that imply they should be on the front wall?

Yes. The ideal location is 45° azimuth and 45° elevation which puts them just outside your L and R pair an up high.

Quote:
If so, what would the problem be with putting them 45 deg at ceiling level part way into the room?

Not a problem. As you said in a later post, as long as you let MultEQ set the delays it will be just fine.

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Oh - I thought the surrounds needn't be as capable as the fronts.
Will the heights really be exercised as much as the fronts?

That really depends on the content. I understand the practical limitations of home systems, but I also don't want to give the impression that more speakers can only be achieved by lowering the required performance of each one. This was one of the early knocks on surround sound by 2 channel purists. The reality is that the better the speakers the better the final sound regardless of whether you have 1 or 11 channels.

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Old 05-17-2009, 05:55 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mactavish View Post

On my new Onkyo 906, THX mode is "not available" in receiver mode, will have to check on CD input, but I assume unless there is THX material on the source this mode will NOT engage? Thus this tip will not work, if that is the case.

If the receiver is THX certified (and the 906 is), THX is simply a "listening mode" in the Onkyo receiver series and some form of THX processing is available for every input source including tuner (if that is what you mean by "receiver mode"). Also, there is no such thing as "THX material on the source." THX is a series of processing modes (Re-EQ, Auto Decorrelation, Timbre Matching, etc.) or a certification that a piece of equipment meets certain specs. I suggest you review your owner's manual thoroughly and see http://www.thx.com/ for more details.
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Old 05-17-2009, 05:55 PM
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Hi Roth,

Quote:
Originally Posted by roth79 View Post


It set Front to Large which I changed to small I think?
Distance was FL 11.3 FR 11.5 Center 11.3 Surround L 9 ft Surround r was 10 feet and Sub was 3.4 feet.

Channel levels are FL +5.0db, FR +3.0db Center +3.5db, SL +2.0db, SR +3.0db and sw -1.0

Crossover frequencys there was none from the fronts when set to large after changing to small it was 40hz, center small 60hz, surround small 60hz and LFE was 80hz.

I recommend changing the front L and R to Small with a 60 or 80 Hz crossover. Everything else looks pretty normal.

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Old 05-17-2009, 11:55 PM
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"I also don't want to give the impression that more speakers can only be achieved by lowering the required performance of each one."

Nor is that my intention; I'm just trying to ascertain if the Heights' output capability needs to match the fronts.

That will be very high in my case; 18Sound 12ND710's and BMS4552ND compression drivers on waveguides.

Though now that I say that, I'll likely never use up all their headroom, so I could do with less of it on the Heights.

Actually, since the Heights are derived, it's hard to imagine that would be the case very often, if ever.

I'd think you guys would have a pretty good idea of what kind of levels the Height channels have relative to L/C/R; can you share any of that data?

Noah
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Old 05-18-2009, 06:53 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nethomas View Post

My very first HT receiver was a Yamaha(1990-91?) at that time it had front ambience speakers. It never really caught on!

That's a blast from the past. I had the DSP-A1000.
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Old 05-18-2009, 07:34 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by noah katz View Post


Actually, since the Heights are derived, it's hard to imagine that would be the case very often, if ever.

I'd think you guys would have a pretty good idea of what kind of levels the Height channels have relative to L/C/R; can you share any of that data?

Noah,

Yes, they are derived but not in the same way as matrixed content. Both the wides and the heights will be required to produce max SPL that is on par to what the front L and R channels produce.

Chris

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Old 05-18-2009, 08:58 AM
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I just posted comments regarding the new Onkyo 807 in a different thread and now realise that perhaps this is the better place for it.

Early specs for the Onkyo TX NR807 indicate that it will noe be spec'ed with Audyssey MultEQ XT. My current TX SR705 does have it. I was targetting the 807 as a set up to Dynamic Volume in hnopes that I would retain XT.

Now here's my issue. My fronts are Mirage OMD-28's which go pretty low. The Xover is set at 40HZ and they sound great ! Yes I have a sub (Outlaw LFM 1+). I use an Anti Mode 8033 to keep it clean. I am NOT going to set my crossover to 80 or set the fronts to small so I would prefer not wasting time discussing that as an option.

Just to figure out what Audyssey was doing for me, I turned it off and sure enough, the fronts exhibited a pronounced boominess that went away when I turned Audyssey back on.

I understand that XT operates at lower frequencies than "regular" MultiEQ so I'm concerned that without it, I am in for boominess that MultiEQ can not tame.

Is my concern justified ?

I think, therefore I am single.
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Old 05-18-2009, 09:41 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PannyMann View Post

I am NOT going to set my crossover to 80 or set the fronts to small so I would prefer not wasting time discussing that as an option.

As you requested.
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Old 05-18-2009, 11:05 AM
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Chris,

"Both the wides and the heights will be required to produce max SPL that is on par to what the front L and R channels produce."

OK then.

Next question is, how often are they called on to do so?

Every once in awhile there's a really loud effect from the surrounds, supporting the case for them having high output capability, but it happens so rarely that a case can be made for smaller ones.

Noah
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