"Official" Audyssey thread (FAQ in post #51779) - Page 490 - AVS Forum
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post #14671 of 72409 Old 05-19-2009, 05:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by batpig View Post

This is the description in the AVR 1910 manual:

Reference Level Offset: Audyssey Dynamic EQ takes the standard film mixing level of 85 dB SPL during -20 dB FS input as its reference level. However, since standardization is lacking outside the film industry, the reference level of media contents may not be appropriate. In order to view such contents, Reference Level Offset of Dynamic EQ has available offsets of 5 dB, 10 dB and 15 dB.

- 0dB: Suitable for viewing movies.
- 5dB: Suitable for listening to classical music and other content mixed at a high level.
- 10dB: Suitable for listening to jazz and other audio sources with a wide dynamic range. Also suitable for viewing TV.
- 15dB: Suitable for listening to pop, rock music and other content with an extremely wide dynamic range.

(Chris, looks like you let Denon translate this to Japanese and then back again to "Denon-ese" ... only Denon could come up with a linguistic gem like "in order to view such contents" when discussing an audio feature )

Looks to me like Denon got things backwards, though.

Classical music typically has an "extremely wide dynamic range" whereas your typical rock recording is "mixed at a high level" with a very narrow dynamic range.

Or did things "get lost in translation?"

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post #14672 of 72409 Old 05-19-2009, 07:28 PM
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Originally Posted by Mike_WI View Post

I believe "transducer" = Buttkicker (etc) type of chair transducer.
(correct me if I'm wrong)

Mike

Ohh, that makes more sense. Thanks!
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post #14673 of 72409 Old 05-19-2009, 09:56 PM
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Re-ran Audyssey a few weeks ago and loved the results after following scrupulously all the instructions for mic-placement, etc. here. I had added some bass traps and broadband absorption across my front wall, so I thought I'd re-run Audyssey.

Wow, the result was wonderful across the board until I hit scenes with ultra-low hz material. Those scenes are way too hot now for my Ultra.

For example, in Transformers where the choppers fly in at the start--now I'm getting room-rattling extension and power like I never have before. Also, Spiderman 3 with the spinning sand pit machine is just unbelievable. However, in both those movies where other scenes have lower hz stuff, the Ultra makes bad noises--it is clearly being over worked and it make those frightening (in a bad way) mechanical noises.

Honestly I like the overall effect on everything else except the sub 20hz scenes. BTW, I'm running my Ultra in 15hz mode, no room-compensation, in a 2,700 sq ft room (15' x 27' x 7.8'). My processor is the Onkyo 875 being used as a pre/pro.

The only thing I can figure is that there is some over-cooked boosting going on down in those lowest frequencies.

Earlier today another Ultra owner (with duals) reported having the same experience in another thread! I'm kind of relieved because I was worried I just needed to get another Ultra to compensate for the infrasonics.

I actually posted some weeks ago about the "hotness" of Transporter 3, but it turns out that everything I play which has very low hz material just overwhelms the sub.

Ideas? Solutions?

creative>energy

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post #14674 of 72409 Old 05-19-2009, 11:06 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bluesky636 View Post

Looks to me like Denon got things backwards, though.

Classical music typically has an "extremely wide dynamic range" whereas your typical rock recording is "mixed at a high level" with a very narrow dynamic range.

Or did things "get lost in translation?"

Yeah the same thing occured to me, todays pop and rock unfortantly has anything but a "extremly wide dynamic range".

AtW
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post #14675 of 72409 Old 05-20-2009, 01:48 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by allredp View Post

Re-ran Audyssey a few weeks ago and loved the results after following scrupulously all the instructions for mic-placement, etc. here. I had added some bass traps and broadband absorption across my front wall, so I thought I'd re-run Audyssey.

Wow, the result was wonderful across the board until I hit scenes with ultra-low hz material. Those scenes are way too hot now for my Ultra.

For example, in Transformers where the choppers fly in at the start--now I'm getting room-rattling extension and power like I never have before. Also, Spiderman 3 with the spinning sand pit machine is just unbelievable. However, in both those movies where other scenes have lower hz stuff, the Ultra makes bad noises--it is clearly being over worked and it make those frightening (in a bad way) mechanical noises.

Honestly I like the overall effect on everything else except the sub 20hz scenes. BTW, I'm running my Ultra in 15hz mode, no room-compensation, in a 2,700 sq ft room (15' x 27' x 7.8'). My processor is the Onkyo 875 being used as a pre/pro.

The only thing I can figure is that there is some over-cooked boosting going on down in those lowest frequencies.

Earlier today another Ultra owner (with duals) reported having the same experience in another thread! I'm kind of relieved because I was worried I just needed to get another Ultra to compensate for the infrasonics.

I actually posted some weeks ago about the "hotness" of Transporter 3, but it turns out that everything I play which has very low hz material just overwhelms the sub.

Ideas? Solutions?

Idea
Current Solutions

cheers


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post #14676 of 72409 Old 05-20-2009, 05:18 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bluesky636 View Post

Looks to me like Denon got things backwards, though.

Classical music typically has an "extremely wide dynamic range" whereas your typical rock recording is "mixed at a high level" with a very narrow dynamic range.

Or did things "get lost in translation?"

+1
I was thinking the same thing.

Mike


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post #14677 of 72409 Old 05-20-2009, 05:54 AM
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Originally Posted by Gary J View Post

Well then, we'll look for proper accreditation in the literature.

"We would like to thank members of the AVSForum Official Audyssey Thread. Specifically, Gary J, Pepar, Kal, and the guy with all those subs."



Disclaimer: The above statement was only meant as a joke. I do not know who really raised the issue in question.

Mark


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post #14678 of 72409 Old 05-20-2009, 05:57 AM
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Originally Posted by MACCA350 View Post

The only two options currently at hand that I can see are:

1) Use your subs built in subsonic filter and increase the slope(or implement one if it doesn't have one)

2) Don't use Audyssey

cheers

I appreciate your response--though I am not happy with the answer, eh.

At least I'm not the only one having this issue; you start to think the subwoofer gods have it in for you after a while!

Enjoy the day...

creative>energy

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post #14679 of 72409 Old 05-20-2009, 06:06 AM
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Originally Posted by allredp View Post

...in a 2,700 sq ft room (15' x 27' x 7.8')....

That's 3,150 cubic feet!
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post #14680 of 72409 Old 05-20-2009, 06:46 AM
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I have searched but I can't find the answer. I am looking at getting a new receiver and the audyssey feature is the huge selling point. It looks like it comes with a 12' cable. The problem is my receiver is 50' from the room and I need to run it through the house. Is it possible to buy a longer cable and audyssey still work? If so, what kind of cable would I need?

Thanks
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post #14681 of 72409 Old 05-20-2009, 07:09 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by giomania View Post

"We would like to thank members of the AVSForum Official Audyssey Thread. Specifically, Gary J, Pepar, Kal, and the guy with all those subs."



Disclaimer: The above statement was only meant as a joke. I do not know who really raised the issue in question.

Mark

Not me. I didn't complain provide input on this issue.


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post #14682 of 72409 Old 05-20-2009, 07:11 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by andyev View Post

I have searched but I can't find the answer. I am looking at getting a new receiver and the audyssey feature is the huge selling point. It looks like it comes with a 12' cable. The problem is my receiver is 50' from the room and I need to run it through the house. Is it possible to buy a longer cable and audyssey still work? If so, what kind of cable would I need?

A very good, well-shielded one. Alternatively, you could temporarily relocate your AVR to the room being measured.


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post #14683 of 72409 Old 05-20-2009, 07:20 AM
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Originally Posted by pepar View Post

A very good, well-shielded one. Alternatively, you could temporarily relocate your AVR to the room being measured.

A very good well shielded what? What kind of cable? I could relocate the receiver but then I'd have to buy new speaker wire to run to the speakers as well as run a source to the receiver which would be a PITA. All my equipment is in an equipment closet on the other end of the house.

Thanks
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post #14684 of 72409 Old 05-20-2009, 07:29 AM
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Originally Posted by andyev View Post

A very good well shielded what? What kind of cable? I could relocate the receiver but then I'd have to buy new speaker wire to run to the speakers as well as run a source to the receiver which would be a PITA. All my equipment is in an equipment closet on the other end of the house.

Thanks

I'm sorry. The mic included with my Onkyo Pro 885 cable has a 1/8" phone plug and the 885 the corresponding female. This connector is also known as a mini-phone plug/jack. Radio shack sells them, as do any number of online companies. You will need to check the specs of your specific AVR for the connector type; I don't know that they are - or are not - all the same.

Temporarily relocate for the measurement. Obviously your speakers are in the room being measured. Set up the AVR there for setting up Audyssey. There is some practical limit to the distance one can extend the single-ended mic cable. I don't know exactly what that is, but I imagine that performance deteriorates before it simply doesn't work at all. Perhaps someone else can address the cable length limit.


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post #14685 of 72409 Old 05-20-2009, 07:43 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bluesky636 View Post

Looks to me like Denon got things backwards, though.

Classical music typically has an "extremely wide dynamic range" whereas your typical rock recording is "mixed at a high level" with a very narrow dynamic range.

Or did things "get lost in translation?"

This is not what we provided for their manual. It's all mixed up. Thanks for pointing it out--we have notified them...The settings shown are correct, but not the explanations.

Chris

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post #14686 of 72409 Old 05-20-2009, 07:49 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by andyev View Post

I have searched but I can't find the answer. I am looking at getting a new receiver and the audyssey feature is the huge selling point. It looks like it comes with a 12' cable. The problem is my receiver is 50' from the room and I need to run it through the house. Is it possible to buy a longer cable and audyssey still work? If so, what kind of cable would I need?

Thanks

50' is too long for the consumer mic cable. Even the best ones will have high frequency loss because of the resistance increase. The mic level signal is too low for such long lengths. Up to 25' is OK, but beyond that is not recommended. The Pro kit can be extended hundreds of feet because it has a separate preamp that can be near the mic.

Chris

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post #14687 of 72409 Old 05-20-2009, 08:27 AM
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Originally Posted by allredp View Post

I appreciate your response--though I am not happy with the answer, eh.

At least I'm not the only one having this issue; you start to think the subwoofer gods have it in for you after a while!

Enjoy the day...

I've found that my current workaround is to not use Dynamic EQ and Dynamic Volume. I've been able to get acceptable bass management with MultEQ still on. If I turn on Dynamic EQ/volume I get the boost in the lower frequencies freaking out my sub. I could leave it on and lower the sub level as well as the LFE, but I lose too much bass this way.

I only have to do this with Blu-ray or HDDVD. I don't have the same issues with TV or DVDs.

I still believe there is an issue. I don't know why it would boost the lower frequencies so much. Because it can't be reproduced with the same equipment at Audyssey I think the room enviornment plays a large role in this issue. But in my mind Audyssey should not be boosting those frequencies anyways.

But in the end I like the HD Audio better without the Dynamic EQ / volume and I'm glad I can still use it for TV. I still need a bigger sub!

- Wayne


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post #14688 of 72409 Old 05-20-2009, 09:03 AM
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Originally Posted by StimpsonJCat View Post

I've found that my current workaround is to not use Dynamic EQ and Dynamic Volume. I've been able to get acceptable bass management with MultEQ still on. If I turn on Dynamic EQ/volume I get the boost in the lower frequencies freaking out my sub. I could leave it on and lower the sub level as well as the LFE, but I lose too much bass this way.

I only have to do this with Blu-ray or HDDVD. I don't have the same issues with TV or DVDs.

I still believe there is an issue. I don't know why it would boost the lower frequencies so much. Because it can't be reproduced with the same equipment at Audyssey I think the room enviornment plays a large role in this issue. But in my mind Audyssey should not be boosting those frequencies anyways.

But in the end I like the HD Audio better without the Dynamic EQ / volume and I'm glad I can still use it for TV. I still need a bigger sub!

As I mentioned, the graphs I posted are without using Dynamic EQ/Vol. The increase in the sub 15Hz range has nothing to do with Dynamic EQ.

If you are interested in seeing a static graph of what Dynamic EQ does see here

If you are using Dynamic EQ and normally listen at lower than reference you will be compounding the low Hz increase relative to the midrange, but it's not the root cause and Dynamic EQ does not increase frequencies above reference.

The issue is that Audyssey MultEQ is increasing low Hz(below the -3db filter adjustment cut off).

cheers


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post #14689 of 72409 Old 05-20-2009, 09:21 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MACCA350 View Post

As I mentioned, the graphs I posted are without using Dynamic EQ/Vol. The increase in the sub 15Hz range has nothing to do with Dynamic EQ.

If you are interested in seeing a static graph of what Dynamic EQ does see here

If you are using Dynamic EQ and normally listen at lower than reference you will be compounding the low Hz increase relative to the midrange, but it's not the root cause and Dynamic EQ does not increase frequencies above reference.

The issue is that Audyssey MultEQ is increasing low Hz(below the -3db filter adjustment cut off).

cheers


I agree. But for my setup/environment I was able to achieve an acceptable level of bass management by just turning off Dynamic EQ. I guess the extra boost from Dynamic EQ was just enough to push my sub too far. I think the problem still exists and I have no real headroom (If I decide to crank it up I will still have an issue). But, for the level I listen to movies at turning off Dynamic EQ stops the sub issues and still gives me the bass I want. This is just a workaround that works in my setup for now...not a solution to the real problem.

- Wayne


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post #14690 of 72409 Old 05-20-2009, 09:21 AM
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Chris,
Will the "Dynamic EQ Reference Level Offset" feature be available as an update for previous models(ie Denon 3808 etc)?

cheers


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post #14691 of 72409 Old 05-20-2009, 09:24 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by StimpsonJCat View Post

I agree. But for my setup/environment I was able to achieve an acceptable level of bass management by just turning off Dynamic EQ. I guess the extra boost from Dynamic EQ was just enough to push my sub too far. I think the problem still exists and I have no real headroom (If I decide to crank it up I will still have an issue). But, for the level I listen to movies at turning off Dynamic EQ stops the sub issues and still gives me the bass I want. This is just a workaround that works in my setup for now...not a solution to the real problem.

Understood, just remember that you will have the same problem if you increase your master volume to/near 0db reference

cheers


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post #14692 of 72409 Old 05-20-2009, 09:27 AM
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Originally Posted by audyssey View Post

This is not what we provided for their manual. It's all mixed up. Thanks for pointing it out--we have notified them...The settings shown are correct, but not the explanations.

Like I said, you shouldn't have let them translate it to Japanese and then to Denon-ese

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post #14693 of 72409 Old 05-20-2009, 09:32 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MACCA350 View Post

As I mentioned, the graphs I posted are without using Dynamic EQ/Vol. The increase in the sub 15Hz range has nothing to do with Dynamic EQ.

If you are interested in seeing a static graph of what Dynamic EQ does see here

If you are using Dynamic EQ and normally listen at lower than reference you will be compounding the low Hz increase relative to the midrange, but it's not the root cause and Dynamic EQ does not increase frequencies above reference.

The issue is that Audyssey MultEQ is increasing low Hz(below the -3db filter adjustment cut off).

cheers

Agreed.

Dynamic EQ has nothing to do with it. At reference, Dynamic EQ on and off yield the same results. All that Dynamic EQ does is make my subs unhappy at a lower master volume.

I can reproduce the boosting in the teen Hz area over and over again. I have even tried moving my subs to 3 other acceptable locations in my room with the same boosting result. I used to think that room setup was the main culprit. Now I am more inclined to believe that sub design (as it interacts with Audyssey calibration) and/or Audyssey implementation is more to blame. But to be honest, I don't have a clue. All I know is that I can, and have, reproduced this issue several dozen times in 4 totally different sub locations in my basement.

Comments/suggestions?

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post #14694 of 72409 Old 05-20-2009, 09:42 AM
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Originally Posted by batpig View Post

Like I said, you shouldn't have let them translate it to Japanese and then to Denon-ese

Dude, if Denon starts getting things right in their manuals, you will be out of a job!

Having said that, it is amazing that they appear to have taken something that (I assume), is already IN proper, clear, correct English, and still butchered it. How these huge companies can not afford to have a native English speaker on staff as a tech writer remains one of the minor mysteries of life.

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post #14695 of 72409 Old 05-20-2009, 09:47 AM
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Dude, if Denon starts getting things right in their manuals, you will be out of a job!

my entire "de facto Denon guru" salary of zero dollars will then disappear!


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How these huge companies can not afford to have a native English speaker on staff as a tech writer remains one of the minor mysteries of life.

I'll take that gig Chris, put in a good word for me

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post #14696 of 72409 Old 05-20-2009, 09:50 AM
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Originally Posted by counsil View Post

Agreed.

Dynamic EQ has nothing to do with it. At reference, Dynamic EQ on and off yield the same results. All that Dynamic EQ does is make my subs unhappy at a lower master volume.

I can reproduce the boosting in the teen Hz area over and over again. I have even tried moving my subs to 3 other acceptable locations in my room with the same boosting result. I used to think that room setup was the main culprit. Now I am more inclined to believe that sub design (as it interacts with Audyssey calibration) and/or Audyssey implementation is more to blame. But to be honest, I don't have a clue. All I know is that I can, and have, reproduced this issue several dozen times in 4 totally different sub locations in my basement.

Comments/suggestions?

How about a question? Just to be clear - I've tried to follow the discussion, but I'm still a bit confused.

Are you seeing/hearing/measuring the boost audibly (with a mic or REW) or are you seeing an actual electrical boost at the receiver's sub-woofer output?
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post #14697 of 72409 Old 05-20-2009, 09:58 AM
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Originally Posted by HDTVChallenged View Post

How about a question? Just to be clear - I've tried to follow the discussion, but I'm still a bit confused.

Are you seeing/hearing/measuring the boost audibly (with a mic or REW) or are you seeing an actual electrical boost at the receiver's sub-woofer output?

I use REW. I have posted a couple of examples. Search back a bit to find them.

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post #14698 of 72409 Old 05-20-2009, 10:04 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HDTVChallenged View Post

How about a question? Just to be clear - I've tried to follow the discussion, but I'm still a bit confused.

Are you seeing/hearing/measuring the boost audibly (with a mic or REW) or are you seeing an actual electrical boost at the receiver's sub-woofer output?

Here is one example of Audyssey really boosting the teen Hz area...

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...7#post16450277

And here is another...

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...1#post16473881

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post #14699 of 72409 Old 05-20-2009, 10:30 AM
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More and more folks in the SVS PB13 Ultra thread are mentioning that they too are having problems with their subs bottoming out very early with Audyssey engaged. Maybe this is an SVS Ultra issue? But why can't Chris reproduce this in his lab with his SVS Ultra? I am perplexed.

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post #14700 of 72409 Old 05-20-2009, 10:58 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by counsil View Post

More and more folks in the SVS PB13 Ultra thread are mentioning that they too are having problems with their subs bottoming out very early with Audyssey engaged. Maybe this is an SVS Ultra issue? But why can't Chris reproduce this in his lab with his SVS Ultra? I am perplexed.

I have used my dual Ultra 13's for a little over an year now. First with a Int 9.8 and now a Denon AVP with out any problems (room 22x15x8) subs in 15Hz mode. Maybe its with the 3808. I hope you guys get it figured out.

Brad
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