"Official" Audyssey thread (FAQ in post #51779) - Page 491 - AVS Forum
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Old 05-20-2009, 12:15 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by audyssey View Post

This is not what we provided for their manual. It's all mixed up. Thanks for pointing it out--we have notified them...The settings shown are correct, but not the explanations.

Bump:

Chris, does this work by the technique of reducing the input source level on the AVR or is it essentially different?

Yes, I still like playing with Dalis.

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Old 05-20-2009, 12:28 PM
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Originally Posted by BRADH View Post

I have used my dual Ultra 13's for a little over an year now. First with a Int 9.8 and now a Denon AVP with out any problems (room 22x15x8) subs in 15Hz mode. Maybe its with the 3808. I hope you guys get it figured out.

Brad

Do you happen to have some frequence response graphs of your sub in your main listening area? With Audyssey turned off and with it turned on? This goes for anyone that isn't having an issue with Audyssey heavily boosting the teen Hz area and own an SVS Ultra.

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Old 05-20-2009, 12:48 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by counsil View Post

More and more folks in the SVS PB13 Ultra thread are mentioning that they too are having problems with their subs bottoming out very early with Audyssey engaged. Maybe this is an SVS Ultra issue? But why can't Chris reproduce this in his lab with his SVS Ultra? I am perplexed.

From the PB13 manual:

There are some compromises when tuning a sub lower than its standard configuration. Installing one port plug takes some capacity from upper reaches of bass, installing two port blocks limits upper bass ―headroom‖ even more. So while deeper settings will indeed provide more bass down low (where DVD and music bass is more rare, but quite exciting!), you'll sacrifice some total output capacity above the stock tuning point of the sub (where bass is more common).

Be sure to select the subsonic filter point on the back of your SVS amp which coincides correctly with your new ―tuning point‖. NOTE: We strongly recommend you do NOT run a lower subsonic filter point than your port plug configuration would dictate especially if you are running the subwoofer at high sound pressure levels.


I run a Velodyne, so I'm not familiar with SVS, but looking at the manual is it possible that this may have something to do with the problem?
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Old 05-20-2009, 01:08 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom C View Post

From the PB13 manual:

There are some compromises when tuning a sub lower than its standard configuration. Installing one port plug takes some capacity from upper reaches of bass, installing two port blocks limits upper bass ―headroom‖ even more. So while deeper settings will indeed provide more bass down low (where DVD and music bass is more rare, but quite exciting!), you'll sacrifice some total output capacity above the stock tuning point of the sub (where bass is more common).

Be sure to select the subsonic filter point on the back of your SVS amp which coincides correctly with your new ―tuning point‖. NOTE: We strongly recommend you do NOT run a lower subsonic filter point than your port plug configuration would dictate especially if you are running the subwoofer at high sound pressure levels.


I run a Velodyne, so I'm not familiar with SVS, but looking at the manual is it possible that this may have something to do with the problem?

I run into the same issue when I use the "standard configuration" of 20Hz.

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Old 05-20-2009, 01:14 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by counsil View Post

Do you happen to have some frequence response graphs of your sub in your main listening area? With Audyssey turned off and with it turned on? This goes for anyone that isn't having an issue with Audyssey heavily boosting the teen Hz area.

No. The only thing I have is the Audyssey results in the AVP.

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Old 05-20-2009, 03:08 PM
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The Onkyo 805 has MultiEQ; can one add (free or paid upgrade) Dynamic EQ to it?
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Old 05-20-2009, 03:43 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by millerwill View Post

The Onkyo 805 has MultiEQ; can one add (free or paid upgrade) Dynamic EQ to it?

From what I've read, I don't think so.
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Old 05-20-2009, 03:57 PM
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Directly from SVS...


Begin of QUOTE...

Yes, your experiences with DEQ exactly mirror ours. It should not be ignoring the high pass of the subwoofer, and yet on the consumer upgrade version it does (the Pro upgrade does not do this in my experience). Frankly, I think Medium after MultEQ XT is run looks great - but you can try Large and it will slightly boost that 20-35 Hz region and still keep the roll-off intact and protect the woofs.

Ed Mullen, PE

Customer Service Director / Product Development Manager

SV Sound, LLC

end of QUOTE

Chris,

Do you care to respond?

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Old 05-20-2009, 04:11 PM
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...or at least work with Denon or SVS on the issue?

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Old 05-20-2009, 04:12 PM
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Here was my response to SVS...


Large isn't enough. It still leaves just enough heavy boosting in the teen hz area that the subs are unhappy at reasonable volumes (-20 from reference). Medium neuters the 20hz to 35hz area too much for my taste. I just want to turn around and up the sub trim level which reintroduces the popping.

I have been posting on the SVS Ultra thread and the Audyssey thread regarding my findings. At first Audyssey totally denied that this could ever occur. Now multiple people are stating that it is happening to them as well, and they are frustrated just as I am. Audyssey says that they cannot reproduce this issue with their Denon 3808 and SVS Ultra. I can reproduce it all day long. With the 15hz and 20hz tunes, and with 4 acceptable sub locations in my basement.

I believe enough people have spoken up that Audyssey is taking note. However, I had to get frustrated and a little rude before people started piping up. I do not like to be called a liar, especially when I have REW graphs to prove that Audyssey alone, not just Dyn EQ, is boosting the teen hz area by more than the 9db max. In my opinion a 9db boost is crazy at the natural rolloff of any sub. That is like asking someone to sing 9 notes lower when they have already sung as low as they can go. A simple comparsion, but true nonetheless.

One of these days I will get everything figured out. Until then, please bear with me

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Old 05-20-2009, 04:13 PM
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I apologize now to everyone in this thread for my rudeness. I am a little relieved now that I have someone to confirm that I am not crazy. Now I can just sit back and wait for suggestions on how to fix/workaround the issue.

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Old 05-20-2009, 04:22 PM
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That's 3,150 cubic feet!

Thanks for the correction Jim!

I already knew the math gods had it in for me...

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Old 05-20-2009, 04:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by audyssey View Post

This is not what we provided for their manual. It's all mixed up. Thanks for pointing it out--we have notified them...The settings shown are correct, but not the explanations.

Do I get a reward? Maybe a "I 'heart' Audyssey" button?
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Old 05-20-2009, 04:30 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SoundofMind View Post

Bump:

Chris, does this work by the technique of reducing the input source level on the AVR or is it essentially different?

Yes, these are presets that do the same thing. Not all receivers give you the ability to change the input level trim so this is a much cleaner way of doing this.

Chris

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Old 05-20-2009, 04:31 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MACCA350 View Post

Understood, just remember that you will have the same problem if you increase your master volume to/near 0db reference

cheers

There's the rub--kind of sucks the joy out of demo sessions and impressing friends!

Love to have some kind of solution that doesn't involve emasculating my system volume...

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Old 05-20-2009, 04:34 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by counsil View Post

Directly from SVS...


Begin of QUOTE...

Yes, your experiences with DEQ exactly mirror ours. It should not be ignoring the high pass of the subwoofer, and yet on the consumer upgrade version it does (the Pro upgrade does not do this in my experience). Frankly, I think Medium after MultEQ XT is run looks great - but you can try Large and it will slightly boost that 20-35 Hz region and still keep the roll-off intact and protect the woofs.

Ed Mullen, PE

Customer Service Director / Product Development Manager

SV Sound, LLC

end of QUOTE

Chris,

Do you care to respond?

MultEQ does not ignore the highpass of the subwoofer in the consumer version nor the Pro version.

Chris

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Old 05-20-2009, 04:39 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by audyssey View Post

MultEQ does not ignore the highpass of the subwoofer in the consumer version nor the Pro version.

"ignoring" was probably a strong word. I have been guilty of using strong words myself!

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Old 05-20-2009, 04:54 PM
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Originally Posted by allredp View Post

There's the rub--kind of sucks the joy out of demo sessions and impressing friends!

Love to have some kind of solution that doesn't involve emasculating my system volume...

And, by turning off Dynamic EQ you lose the house curve. Then you are inclined to turn up the sub trim level, which then reintroduces the problem.

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Old 05-20-2009, 06:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by counsil View Post

And, by turning off Dynamic EQ you lose the house curve. Then you are inclined to turn up the sub trim level, which then reintroduces the problem.

Dynamic EQ is not a house curve, it's closer to a loudness curve.

cheers
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Old 05-20-2009, 07:19 PM
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Originally Posted by pepar View Post

You are a nimbler Jack than I if you can sit on the floor and spring into action that quick. I was off to the left side for all of my resting periods, such as they were. For front, rear and right speakers, I merely retreated and minimized my profile; I bent over and leaned on the arm of the left rear recliner. For the left side surround speaker, I crouched in the same location.

This thread is really big! Anybody point me to an appropriate post? I am trying to confirm when using ceiling speakers above the main listening area,it helps to change the mic direction from pointed at the ceiling to pointed at the side wall so the "grazing" effect is maintained for those speakers. Point back at the ceiling for the fronts etc.
Thanks
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Old 05-20-2009, 08:12 PM
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Originally Posted by ddingle View Post

This thread is really big! Anybody point me to an appropriate post? I am trying to confirm when using ceiling speakers above the main listening area,it helps to change the mic direction from pointed at the ceiling to pointed at the side wall so the "grazing" effect is maintained for those speakers. Point back at the ceiling for the fronts etc.
Thanks

I have four in-ceiling Polk rc80i speakers above my couch to finish out my 7.1 setup. I leave the mic pointing up at the ceiling at all times. Audyssey does a great job calibrating them. I have never found myself looking up, yet I have never thought they weren't putting out enough sound.

Audyssey calculates their crossover, distance, and trim levels spot on.

Are you having issues or just wondering the best way to calibrate for them?

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Old 05-20-2009, 08:15 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MACCA350 View Post

Dynamic EQ is not a house curve, it's closer to a loudness curve.

cheers

My bad. I thought I had read somewhere that Dynamic EQ was Audyssey's way of creating a house curve.

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Old 05-20-2009, 08:23 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by counsil View Post

My bad. I thought I had read somewhere that Dynamic EQ was Audyssey's way of creating a house curve.

No, it is a über-sophisticated Loudness Contour that tracks absolute volume and adjusts for human hearing sensitivity dynamically..
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Old 05-20-2009, 08:26 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ddingle View Post

This thread is really big! Anybody point me to an appropriate post? I am trying to confirm when using ceiling speakers above the main listening area,it helps to change the mic direction from pointed at the ceiling to pointed at the side wall so the "grazing" effect is maintained for those speakers. Point back at the ceiling for the fronts etc.
Thanks

council's experience not withstanding, I have read posts from members who needed to re-orient the mics from in-ceilings. The concern is that a mic pointed at the speaker will hear too many highs and correct by rolling it off too much.
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Old 05-20-2009, 09:52 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SoundofMind View Post

Chris, does this work by the technique of reducing the input source level on the AVR or is it essentially different?

Quote:
Originally Posted by audyssey View Post

Yes, these are presets that do the same thing. Not all receivers give you the ability to change the input level trim so this is a much cleaner way of doing this.

Chris, does it actually overall the source volume level globally for that input or only when Dyn. EQ is on? or just the "reference" level for Dyn. EQ?

Does my question make sense? As another way of asking, if I am watching a movie, go into the setup menu, set source level to -10dB for that input, and then accept the change, I will suddenly hear the overall volume level drop 10dB. I would then have to turn the volume up from, say, -20dB to -10dB to get the same level of "loudness".

Will the same thing happen when I go the Parameters menu and set the Dyn.EQ reference offset to -10db? e.g. will the overall volume drop, or will it just change the "shape" of the EQ curve adjustment that Dyn.EQ is making?

Just trying to understand if it is really functionally identical the source level adjustment "trick".

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Old 05-20-2009, 10:01 PM
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Originally Posted by pepar View Post

council's experience not withstanding, I have read posts from members who needed to re-orient the mics from in-ceilings. The concern is that a mic pointed at the speaker will hear too many highs and correct by rolling it off too much.

another ten dollar word. good word choice.

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Old 05-20-2009, 10:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ddingle View Post

This thread is really big! Anybody point me to an appropriate post? I am trying to confirm when using ceiling speakers above the main listening area,it helps to change the mic direction from pointed at the ceiling to pointed at the side wall so the "grazing" effect is maintained for those speakers. Point back at the ceiling for the fronts etc.
Thanks

Interesting. I have a Denon 3808a with Niles in-ceiling surrounds/rears. Audyssey is determining the cross-over point at 150 Hz (my fronts and center are VAF soundwall, crossed-over at around 80 Hz).

I might try this with my next Audyssey run, after I do some more research.

Benje
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Old 05-21-2009, 09:20 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by batpig View Post

Chris, does it actually overall the source volume level globally for that input or only when Dyn. EQ is on? or just the "reference" level for Dyn. EQ?

Does my question make sense? As another way of asking, if I am watching a movie, go into the setup menu, set source level to -10dB for that input, and then accept the change, I will suddenly hear the overall volume level drop 10dB. I would then have to turn the volume up from, say, -20dB to -10dB to get the same level of "loudness".

Will the same thing happen when I go the Parameters menu and set the Dyn.EQ reference offset to -10db? e.g. will the overall volume drop, or will it just change the "shape" of the EQ curve adjustment that Dyn.EQ is making?

Just trying to understand if it is really functionally identical the source level adjustment "trick".

It is exactly the same thing. With both methods you are telling Dynamic EQ that the master volume is set to a higher value and therefore it will apply less compensation.

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Old 05-21-2009, 09:52 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by noah katz View Post

Chris,

The DSX spec for the height channels is 45 deg elevation.

If the ears are 44" from the floor, with 8' ceilings the speakers would be about 5 1/2' forward of the listening position.

I'd think that's a good amount closer than the average seating distance, so that for most situations the heights would end up on/in the ceiling between the seats and the front wall.

I'm actually warming to the idea, just want to make sure I'm understanding it correctly.

Back to the fronts, what output level capability relative to the L/R is required from the Wides and Heights?

Quote:
Originally Posted by audyssey View Post

That's the ideal case. Obviously real world rooms will vary. The rule of thumb is "as high as possible above your front speakers"

The same as all the other channels in the system.

Quote:
Originally Posted by noah katz View Post

Does that imply they should be on the front wall?

If so, what would the problem be with putting them 45 deg at ceiling level part way into the room?

Will the heights really be exercised as much as the fronts?

If so, that's a real problem to implement. My fronts, and I suspect many if not most others', are several times the size of my surrounds.

Quote:
Originally Posted by audyssey View Post

Yes. The ideal location is 45° azimuth and 45° elevation which puts them just outside your L and R pair an up high.

Not a problem. As you said in a later post, as long as you let MultEQ set the delays it will be just fine.

That really depends on the content. I understand the practical limitations of home systems, but I also don't want to give the impression that more speakers can only be achieved by lowering the required performance of each one. This was one of the early knocks on surround sound by 2 channel purists. The reality is that the better the speakers the better the final sound regardless of whether you have 1 or 11 channels.

Quote:
Originally Posted by noah katz View Post

Nor is that my intention; I'm just trying to ascertain if the Heights' output capability needs to match the fronts.

Actually, since the Heights are derived, it's hard to imagine that would be the case very often, if ever.

I'd think you guys would have a pretty good idea of what kind of levels the Height channels have relative to L/C/R; can you share any of that data?

Quote:
Originally Posted by audyssey View Post

Noah,

Yes, they are derived but not in the same way as matrixed content. Both the wides and the heights will be required to produce max SPL that is on par to what the front L and R channels produce.

Quote:
Originally Posted by noah katz View Post

Chris,
OK then.

Next question is, how often are they called on to do so?

Every once in awhile there's a really loud effect from the surrounds, supporting the case for them having high output capability, but it happens so rarely that a case can be made for smaller ones.

Quote:
Originally Posted by audyssey View Post

Noah,

The wides and heights are playing continuously. They are not just there for effects.

Quote:
Originally Posted by noah katz View Post

Chris,

Good to know, but that wasn't my question, which was, how often will the heights receive the full brunt of explosive effects?

I can see how the wides would be dished up everything the L/C/R's get, but it seems unlikely that gunfire etc. would be fed full strength to the heights.

Quote:
Originally Posted by audyssey View Post

Oh, I see. You're right, the heights will not receive the full brunt of such effect.

Quote:
Originally Posted by noah katz View Post

Great, thanks Chris.

Since there will probably be a lot of questions regarding the height channel speakers, I thought it would be helpful to capture these exchanges between Chris and Noah in one post. See above for details on placement, frequency response capability, and some hints on how they are implemented.

Last night, I busted out my laser alignment tool to see where the wides and heights would wind up in my room. Basically, if I placed the heights at the ideal elevation of 45 degrees, they would be very close to my seating area. My ceiling is 7'-9", and my front-row seats are raised about 6" off the floor due to a D-Box motion simulation platform.

So, the ideal placement for the heights would not really work in my setup. If I position the height channel speaker closer to the corner, the angle is around 22-25 degrees.

Compromise is omni-present in most real-world home theaters, I would suspect.

Mark
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Old 05-21-2009, 10:04 AM
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Originally Posted by giomania View Post


Compromise is omni-present in most real-world home theaters, I would suspect.

Yes, the real world gets in the way... When the new engineering building was being planned at USC we were told we would get brand new space for our labs. They made the mistake of asking for our requirements for the space. We had many that surprised them, but none more than asking for a 16' floor slab to ceiling slab. "But", they said, "the standard slab spacing is 12'." We insisted that it was crucial for our experiments. The building was built with the entire second floor being taller than the other floors by 4'. Sometimes you can win.

I understand the limitations of typical home ceiling heights. If you do decide to put height speakers in, place them as high as possible. But, only do that after you have installed the wides. They provide a more valuable audible benefit than the heights.

Chris

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