"Official" Audyssey thread (FAQ in post #51779) - Page 493 - AVS Forum
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Receivers, Amps, and Processors > "Official" Audyssey thread (FAQ in post #51779)
FilmMixer's Avatar FilmMixer 12:23 PM 05-22-2009
Quote:
Originally Posted by audyssey View Post

Yes, that's right. MultEQ in the new AVRs with DSX will time and level align the new wide and height speakers and, of course, run the room correction filters for them as well.

Could we conclude from this that most existing receivers do not have sufficient DSP to perform this kind of processing?

And hence a simple firmware upgrade will not be possilbe in most situations to add DSX?

audyssey's Avatar audyssey 12:54 PM 05-22-2009
Quote:
Originally Posted by FilmMixer View Post

Could we conclude from this that most existing receivers do not have sufficient DSP to perform this kind of processing?

And hence a simple firmware upgrade will not be possilbe in most situations to add DSX?

Not necessarily. The newer models have similar DSP chips. It may have more to do with being able to reprogram the microcontroller and GUI after the fact and also with the amplifier channels available and how they could be reconfigured. It's not a trivial change, but each manufacturer will have to decide on their own whether this is possible.
nethomas's Avatar nethomas 01:25 PM 05-22-2009
Quote:
Originally Posted by audyssey View Post

Not necessarily. The newer models have similar DSP chips. It may have more to do with being able to reprogram the microcontroller and GUI after the fact and also with the amplifier channels available and how they could be reconfigured. It's not a trivial change, but each manufacturer will have to decide on their own whether this is possible.

That's why I think Denon will offer it to the AVP A1HD. It already has 12 channels and I'm sure plenty of processing power!
giomania's Avatar giomania 02:22 PM 05-22-2009
Quote:
Originally Posted by noah katz View Post

Mark,

"Basically, if I placed the heights at the ideal elevation of 45 degrees, they would be very close to my seating area."

Why not some in-ceiling speakers?

The upside is that being close means they won't have to be driven as hard.

Quote:
Originally Posted by pepar View Post

Does anyone have any thoughts - Chris? - on timbre-matching the Wides and Heights to the rest of the system? I would think that it would be extremely important to do so, so unless one's mains are in-ceiling, the additional speakers should not be either.

I was thinking along the lines of having matching speakers for the L/C/R/LW/RW/LH/RH, but let's see what Chris has to say.

Mark
giomania's Avatar giomania 02:23 PM 05-22-2009
Quote:
Originally Posted by giomania View Post

Chris,

I am thinking to do both Wide and Height speakers. For the height speakers, in addition to being placed as high as possible, I assume they should be placed as close as possible to the recommended elevation of 45 degrees. Obviously, there are compromises that will influence this:

Clearances - So nobody bumps their head on the bottom of the speaker while entering or exiting the room.
Aesthetics - A speaker hanging in the middle of the room may not look that great.
SAF - So nobody gets divorced due to the addition of DSX.

In my situation, I think they would wind up at a 20-25 degree angle from ear height. Would it still work?

Thanks.

Mark

Chris, I think you missed my question above.
audyssey's Avatar audyssey 02:27 PM 05-22-2009
Quote:
Originally Posted by giomania View Post

I was thinking along the lines of having matching speakers for the L/C/R/LW/RW/LH/RH, but let's see what Chris has to say.

Mark

That would be ideal, but not always practical especially if L and R are tower speakers. "Same family" will be fine. If they are not then MultEQ will still try to match them as best as possible, although if there are huge directivity differences in the speaker designs that will become more difficult.
audyssey's Avatar audyssey 02:29 PM 05-22-2009
Quote:
Originally Posted by giomania View Post

In my situation, I think they would wind up at a 20-25 degree angle from ear height. Would it still work?

"work" is a relative term. It will provide a benefit, but not as big as a higher elevation. "As close to the ceiling as possible" is our recommendation.
pepar's Avatar pepar 02:45 PM 05-22-2009
Quote:
Originally Posted by audyssey View Post

"work" is a relative term. It will provide a benefit, but not as big as a higher elevation. "As close to the ceiling as possible" is our recommendation.

And Audyssey will compensate for the boundary effect?
millerwill's Avatar millerwill 03:14 PM 05-22-2009
Quote:
Originally Posted by audyssey View Post

"work" is a relative term. It will provide a benefit, but not as big as a higher elevation. "As close to the ceiling as possible" is our recommendation.

Let me try the following suggestion on you. Would it be sensible (even approximately!) to do the following: if I want to stay with my present 7.1 AVR (Onk 805, which I really like), could I move the rear pair of speakers to the Wide position (leaving just the side-surrounds in place) and connect them in parallel to the L and R terminals of the AVR, i.e., just sending the L and R channel signals also to the left and right Wides? Would MultiEQ XT go crazy trying to eq this? Would I damage my AVR? Would it be crap? Any thought about how one might get the advantage of Wides with a present 7.1 AVR? TIA
sixmillion's Avatar sixmillion 03:33 PM 05-22-2009
Quote:
Originally Posted by batpig View Post

Chris -

I just read through the new Denon AVR 1910 manual and noticed a new adjustable parameter: Dynamic EQ Reference Level Offset, which can be set at four values (0/-5/-10/-15dB).

Is this the long awaited concession to the fact non-movie content is mixed without a reference standard? It sounds like it will be a pretty awesome addition to the new Denon lineup for those of us who have trouble "taming the bass" with poorly mixed TV and music content!

If I am reading this correctly, then kudos to you and a big thanks! That's something I have really been waiting for and will be a very appealing feature for a lot of consumers.


Do you know if this feature is in the AVR - 989. I just read through the manual but cannot find it. Where would I find it in the menu system ?
batpig's Avatar batpig 03:41 PM 05-22-2009
did you miss the part where it is a NEW parameter?

as mentioned before, you can do the same thing effectively on any '09 Denon model by simply lowering the SOURCE LEVEL of a given input. It's not as "easy access" as having it in the PARAMETERS menu (i.e. for on-the-fly tweaking) but the effect will be the same. The point is you will have go to a higher number on the volume dial to achieve the same level of loudness... which means there will be less "compensation" dialed in by Dynamic EQ.

e.g. if you find music is way too bassy with Dynamic EQ, put SOURCE LEVEL at -10dB for that input. Then, you will achieve the same "loudness" at Volume of "-20dB" as you were getting before at "-30dB". But as far as Dynamic EQ is concerned, you are now 10dB closer to "reference", so it won't compensate as aggressively.
millerwill's Avatar millerwill 03:52 PM 05-22-2009
Quote:
Originally Posted by millerwill View Post

Let me try the following suggestion on you. Would it be sensible (even approximately!) to do the following: if I want to stay with my present 7.1 AVR (Onk 805, which I really like), could I move the rear pair of speakers to the Wide position (leaving just the side-surrounds in place) and connect them in parallel to the L and R terminals of the AVR, i.e., just sending the L and R channel signals also to the left and right Wides? Would MultiEQ XT go crazy trying to eq this? Would I damage my AVR? Would it be crap? Any thought about how one might get the advantage of Wides with a present 7.1 AVR? TIA

I'm afraid I can partially answer my own question: if both the L and left Wide speaker are attached to the L terminal of the AVR, since the two speakers will be at different distances from the listener, etc., MultiEQ XT will not know what to do, so one may get something truly weird. Other problems?
audyssey's Avatar audyssey 04:11 PM 05-22-2009
Quote:
Originally Posted by pepar View Post

And Audyssey will compensate for the boundary effect?

yes, MultEQ already does that today.
audyssey's Avatar audyssey 04:14 PM 05-22-2009
Quote:
Originally Posted by millerwill View Post

Let me try the following suggestion on you. Would it be sensible (even approximately!) to do the following: if I want to stay with my present 7.1 AVR (Onk 805, which I really like), could I move the rear pair of speakers to the Wide position (leaving just the side-surrounds in place) and connect them in parallel to the L and R terminals of the AVR, i.e., just sending the L and R channel signals also to the left and right Wides? Would MultiEQ XT go crazy trying to eq this? Would I damage my AVR? Would it be crap? Any thought about how one might get the advantage of Wides with a present 7.1 AVR? TIA

Sorry, not possible for a number of reasons. Connecting speakers in parallel is no-no. That's a great way to blow up speakers and amps. Also, the signal that is needed for the wides requires significant signal processing to generate. It's very far from being a copy of L and R.
fyzziks's Avatar fyzziks 04:14 PM 05-22-2009
Quote:
Originally Posted by millerwill View Post

Let me try the following suggestion on you. Would it be sensible (even approximately!) to do the following: if I want to stay with my present 7.1 AVR (Onk 805, which I really like), could I move the rear pair of speakers to the Wide position (leaving just the side-surrounds in place) and connect them in parallel to the L and R terminals of the AVR, i.e., just sending the L and R channel signals also to the left and right Wides? Would MultiEQ XT go crazy trying to eq this? Would I damage my AVR? Would it be crap? Any thought about how one might get the advantage of Wides with a present 7.1 AVR? TIA

Oh, dear.
If you want to stay with your current AVR, you don't get the wide channels. Period. Connecting your rear speakers in parallel with your fronts is a Bad Idea. MultEQ would not give sensible results, the impedance presented to your amp would be half it's current value (if you have 4 ohm speakers, you now have a 2 ohm load, not counting the weird phase relationships and possible crossover interactions), so you could indeed damage your AVR, and yes, it would be probably be crap. I have enough faith in Chris and his colleagues that if one could get a significant gain by simply adding another speaker with the front channels repeated at a 60 deg angle, I think they wouldn't have spent the time and money on developing the new system.
sixmillion's Avatar sixmillion 04:15 PM 05-22-2009
Quote:
Originally Posted by batpig View Post

did you miss the part where it is a NEW parameter?

as mentioned before, you can do the same thing effectively on any '09 Denon model by simply lowering the SOURCE LEVEL of a given input. It's not as "easy access" as having it in the PARAMETERS menu (i.e. for on-the-fly tweaking) but the effect will be the same. The point is you will have go to a higher number on the volume dial to achieve the same level of loudness... which means there will be less "compensation" dialed in by Dynamic EQ.

e.g. if you find music is way too bassy with Dynamic EQ, put SOURCE LEVEL at -10dB for that input. Then, you will achieve the same "loudness" at Volume of "-20dB" as you were getting before at "-30dB". But as far as Dynamic EQ is concerned, you are now 10dB closer to "reference", so it won't compensate as aggressively.

I figured that because I just bought a new Denon avr 989 at Future Shop that it would have this feature. If it is on the 1910........ and the 989 is a step above the 1910. Am I correct in saying this. Then again maybe the 1910 is a 2010 model and not 2009 ?
millerwill's Avatar millerwill 04:25 PM 05-22-2009
Quote:
Originally Posted by fyzziks View Post

Oh, dear.
If you want to stay with your current AVR, you don't get the wide channels. Period. Connecting your rear speakers in parallel with your fronts is a Bad Idea. MultEQ would not give sensible results, the impedance presented to your amp would be half it's current value (if you have 4 ohm speakers, you now have a 2 ohm load, not counting the weird phase relationships and possible crossover interactions), so you could indeed damage your AVR, and yes, it would be probably be crap. I have enough faith in Chris and his colleagues that if one could get a significant gain by simply adding another speaker with the front channels repeated at a 60 deg angle, I think they wouldn't have spent the time and money on developing the new system.

Was afraid of all this. But thanks to you and Chris for the prompt feedback!
bluesky636's Avatar bluesky636 06:44 PM 05-22-2009
Quote:
Originally Posted by audyssey View Post

Sure. You can use that offset to reduce the effect of Dynamic EQ. I don't know if it will be offered as an update, but you can achieve the exact same thing by reducing the source input trim on your AVR. That will cause you to turn the master volume up and therefore reduce the effect of Dynamic EQ.

What would be a reasonable value to set the master volume to achieve this?

I currently play most everything at about -16 db using THX Loudness as Dynamic EQ is too heavy. My Blu-Ray (movies and music CDs) is set to an input sensitivity of "0" db. To get the same approximate level for dialog at -16 db, I have the HD DVR input sensitivity set to "-3" db.

The input sensitivity adjustment on my Onkyo 706 is +/- 12 db, so obviously I can't set the master volume at "0" db reference for the loudness level in the room at which I like to listen.
noah katz's Avatar noah katz 10:42 PM 05-22-2009
Hi Bill,

Why don't you try moving your L/R farther apart and experiment with different amounts of toe-in?

This would work best with CD (constant directivity) speakers; which have following output as you move off axis but with little change in freq resp.

You can learn more at gedlee.com.
millerwill's Avatar millerwill 11:03 PM 05-22-2009
Thanks, Noah. My room is only 13.5 ft wide, but 17 ft long. So I really can't get the L and R speakers further apart. I do like the idea of 2 'Wides, and think just one pair of surrounds/back would be sufficient for my room. I'm just annoyed that this would require a new AVR, for I really like the Onk 805 in so many ways.
davelr's Avatar davelr 03:26 PM 05-23-2009
Quote:
Originally Posted by audyssey View Post

... I don't know if it will be offered as an update, but you can achieve the exact same thing by reducing the source input trim on your AVR. ...

Chris, thanks, but of course this kind of negates the primary reason for the input trim feature, balancing "perceived" volume levels between sources. I'm also not sure how I'd determine when I'd gotten to the "correct" level to accurately set the Dyn EQ feature for a given source. I'd certainly appreciate it if Audyssey would encourage Denon to possibly include the offset feature in a firmware update for the 3808 and others of that series.
bluesky636's Avatar bluesky636 03:48 PM 05-23-2009
Quote:
Originally Posted by davelr View Post

Chris, thanks, but of course this kind of negates the primary reason for the input trim feature, balancing "perceived" volume levels between sources. I'm also not sure how I'd determine when I'd gotten to the "correct" level to accurately set the Dyn EQ feature for a given source. I'd certainly appreciate it if Audyssey would encourage Denon to possibly include the offset feature in a firmware update for the 3808 and others of that series.

I have the same concern with my Onkyo TX-SR706.

I tried changing my input trim on my Blu-Ray input from "0" db to "-6" db to raise my volume control from "-16" db to "-10" db. Dynamic EQ was still too heavy. I dropped the trim again to "-10" db and raised my volume to "-6" db. Still no go.

To be honest, in my room, with my setup and MultEQ calibration, Dynamic Eq is of very limited use. Even on a good movie it still sounds too bass heavy and surround volume is exagerated.

THX Loudness Plus, on the other hand, sounds good at all volume levels and input sources (CD, DVD, Blu-Ray, or TV).

Guess its time to quit agonizing over this and stick with what sounds good to me:

MultEQ + THX Loudness Plus =

MultEQ + Dynamic EQ =
audyssey's Avatar audyssey 05:40 PM 05-23-2009
Quote:
Originally Posted by davelr View Post

Chris, thanks, but of course this kind of negates the primary reason for the input trim feature, balancing "perceived" volume levels between sources. I'm also not sure how I'd determine when I'd gotten to the "correct" level to accurately set the Dyn EQ feature for a given source. I'd certainly appreciate it if Audyssey would encourage Denon to possibly include the offset feature in a firmware update for the 3808 and others of that series.

I will ask about firmware updates and will report back. Please note that the adjustments should only be required for non-film content. If the MultEQ calibration didn't encounter any issues then Dynamic EQ doesn't need any adjustment for film content. It's the content that isn't mixed to film standards that needs this (music and some TV). I recommend starting with a -10 dB input level reduction for such sources.
noah katz's Avatar noah katz 08:24 PM 05-23-2009
"Chris, thanks, but of course this kind of negates the primary reason for the input trim feature, balancing "perceived" volume levels between sources."

Not necessarily, if there's enough adjustment range to balance sources as well as offset all of their levels together.
Pacbellguy's Avatar Pacbellguy 06:12 PM 05-24-2009
I just installed the Audyssey upgrade pack for my Denon 4308CI. I re-ran the setup and have a question about the distance results.

I have a 6.1 setup (2 rear surrounds and 1 back speaker). I measured in all 8 postions.

I have accurate distance readings (6 to 7 feet) for the surround left, surround right and back left (since it's the only one connected).

Where I'm confused is I'm also getting a reading for "Surr Back" of 15ft. What is this measuring since all 3 back speakers are already accounted for?
audyssey's Avatar audyssey 09:40 PM 05-24-2009
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pacbellguy View Post

Where I'm confused is I'm also getting a reading for "Surr Back" of 15ft. What is this measuring since all 3 back speakers are already accounted for?

I believe this is a firmware bug in some of the 4308's. It's actually supposed to be the subwoofer distance. As far as I know it only shows up in the results screen. The actual distances are being set correctly.
Pacbellguy's Avatar Pacbellguy 11:03 PM 05-24-2009
Quote:
Originally Posted by audyssey View Post

I believe this is a firmware bug in some of the 4308's. It's actually supposed to be the subwoofer distance. As far as I know it only shows up in the results screen. The actual distances are being set correctly.

That must be it because there is no measurement listed for subwoofer.

Hopefully that'll get corrected with a later firmware release just to avoid confusion.

Thank you
dominica's Avatar dominica 11:46 PM 05-24-2009
SPEAKERS: 7.1 setup / Onkyo 607

FRONT: POLK AUDIO VM30

Overall Frequency Response 50Hz--26Khz
Lower -3dB Limit 60Hz dB
Upper -3dB Limit 25kHz dB


SIDES & BACKS: POLK AUDIO VM10

Overall Frequency Response 90Hz--26Khz
Lower -3dB Limit 100Hz dB
Upper -3dB Limit 25kHz dB


SUB: POLK AUDIO PSW110

Cross over (60hz to 160HZ)
Overall Frequency Response 32Hz-250Hz

CENTER Speaker: HTD LEVEL 3

Frequency Response: 45 Hz - 40 kHz
Crossover: 3rd order at 2500Hz

Front Height: HTD

Frequency Response: 60 Hz - 20 kHz
Crossover: 2nd order at 3200Hz


After setting the system up. Audyssey gave me the following settings, which has me confused

Sub: Yes
Front: 120 Hz
Center: 40 Hz
Surr: 150Hz
Front Hight: 60 Hz
Surr Back: 120Hz
Surr Back CH: 2Ch
SPF of LFE: 80Hz

But from the Manufacture spec's I should set the 607 to the following?

Sub: Yes
Front: 80 Hz
Center: 50 Hz
Surr: 80Hz
Front Hight: None
Surr Back: 80Hz
Surr Back CH: 2Ch
SPF of LFE: 80Hz


Before running the set up, I had the Following Settings: I ran set up late at night with no noise, cell phone turned off etc..

Audyssey

Dynamic Eq :OFF
Dynamic Volume: OFF

Equalizer Settings

Equalizer : Audyssey




Thanks
audyssey's Avatar audyssey 08:08 AM 05-25-2009
Quote:
Originally Posted by dominica View Post

After setting the system up. Audyssey gave me the following settings, which has me confused

Sub: Yes
Front: 120 Hz
Center: 40 Hz
Surr: 150Hz
Front Hight: 60 Hz
Surr Back: 120Hz
Surr Back CH: 2Ch
SPF of LFE: 80Hz

But from the Manufacture spec's I should set the 607 to the following?

Sub: Yes
Front: 80 Hz
Center: 50 Hz
Surr: 80Hz
Front Hight: None
Surr Back: 80Hz
Surr Back CH: 2Ch
SPF of LFE: 80Hz

The manufacturer's specs do not take into account the room or the proximity of the speakers to walls, corners, etc. That's the whole reason for measuring the speakers in the room: to see what they are actually doing and apply the best settings. The only thing I would suggest changing is the LPF of the LFE. It should be 120 Hz. This is, unfortunately, set incorrectly by Onkyo to 80 Hz.
dominica's Avatar dominica 09:00 AM 05-25-2009
Quote:
Originally Posted by audyssey View Post

The manufacturer's specs do not take into account the room or the proximity of the speakers to walls, corners, etc. That's the whole reason for measuring the speakers in the room: to see what they are actually doing and apply the best settings. The only thing I would suggest changing is the LPF of the LFE. It should be 120 Hz. This is, unfortunately, set incorrectly by Onkyo to 80 Hz.

Thanks you very much for you help and info. I will change the LPF of the LFE to 120 Hz. I have one more quick question:

Before I ran the setup, I had the following setting

Audyssey

Dynamic Eq :OFF
Dynamic Volume: OFF

Equalizer Settings

Equalizer : Audyssey ON (Should I turn this off before the Setup?)


Did I do the right thing with the above settings? and how does the Equalizer Audyssey settings effect the settings and sound before and after?


Thanks....


Everyone have a great holiday
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