"Official" Audyssey thread (FAQ in post #51779) - Page 2655 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
Baselworld is only a few weeks away. Getting the latest news is easy, Click Here for info on how to join the Watchuseek.com newsletter list. Follow our team for updates featuring event coverage, new product unveilings, watch industry news & more!


Forum Jump: 
 3426Likes
Closed Thread
 
Thread Tools
post #79621 of 79638 Old 03-23-2016, 10:02 AM
AVS Special Member
 
CherylJosie's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2008
Posts: 1,066
Mentioned: 11 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 539 Post(s)
Liked: 210
Quote:
Originally Posted by mthomas47 View Post
Of course, where we aren't satisfied with a particular trim level, for whatever reason, we are always free to adjust any of them manually to our personal preference. Not that you or I would ever do something like that.
I eventually gave up on Audyssey and began manually graphic EQing to 'Harman's target' ~-4dB/decdade or ~-1.2dB/octave as the response that most closely matches my native in-room response, sort of like a low budget approximation of Dirac auto-target. In the process I also had to manually adjust the levels to align them all to target on either side of the sub crossover, particularly since it is sometimes necessary to bias the whole graphic up or down to more precisely fit the transitions between fixed adjustment bands on the graphic to the required EQ response. So actually I have no idea what you mean!

The acoustic treatments are coming along at a snail's pace, but the goal is to eventually get them done well enough that the response is naturally smoother/flatter and try Audyssey again. I discovered that warping the native response to a flattish target with Audyssey EQ made the sound too bright (after a zillion posts from concerned citizens that objected to my novice approach) but maybe if the acoustics favor that target naturally it might work a little better. Otherwise the graphic will have to do since I am not planning on upgrading the electronics.

With no room treatments Audyssey actually sounded OK but as I began adding absorption the sound changed markedly and I noticed that Audyssey was worse than no EQ. This was opposite what I expected to happen but oh well I guess I just have to acknowledge that I am not infinitely wise.

Quote:
Originally Posted by gurkey View Post
Audyssey measures the "phase" in the midband by using the generated wavefront.
Are you sure about this? The distance setting should be precise and come directly off the reconstructed impulse response. Time and frequency domains are approximately duals of each other and the frequency sweep is transformed into impulse response for setting the distance.

If the acoustic impulse is phase inverted its excursion is opposite that derived off the electrically driven signal. This has nothing whatsoever to do with the absolute phase at any solitary frequency. In my untreated room, phase interference from boundary reflections torqued the phase through several 360 degree revolutions before getting anywhere near 1KHz and I am still working on making the phase more linear and flatter with absorption etc.

If Audyssey relied on the absolute phase at any given frequency the calibration would be a nightmare and the reported electrical phase would be a toss-up.

Not expert here so unable to claim definitively but I suspect that your statement is inaccurate, at least the part about Audyssey using any specific frequency to set distance and report phase. The group delay is too large to use that approach in any random setting. It would only work in a very carefully tuned room. Just IMO, not definitive statement and not expert.

Quote:
Many speaker manufacturers on their 3-way speakers chose to reverse the phase of their mid range drivers on purpose to smooth the response in the cross over region.
If what you mean by 'response' is actually 'phase', then you would be correct. At crossover, the phase naturally deviates through the -3dB point and there are two common approaches. The first is to just let the phase be off at crossover and tweak that region in the crossover for flat amplitude through the transition (this is the Linkwitz-Riley approach if I am remembering correctly) and the other is to just phase invert the midrange driver so that the phases of drivers naturally align through the crossover region without any cancellation phase fight, albeit with a full 180 degree shift.

This second approach results in smoother phase curve, but it also means that the speakers themselves introduce a full 360 degree rotation over the frequency sweep, in two discrete 180 degree steps corresponding to the crossover frequencies. If the -3dB LFE is really high due to room acoustics that might mean the bass woofer is doing very little and severely phase-shifted too, so the mathematically constructed impulse might derive primarily from the mid driver and come out inverted compared to other channels with better acoustics. Not sure how a similar acoustics scenario would affect speakers that have in-phase midrange driver.

I also suspect this inverted midrange approach only really works well if all the speakers in the system are 3-way, else drivers reproducing the same frequencies on different channels with different driver frequency bands will be driving at opposite phases.

The 'Phase Matching Bass' function in my Onkyo seems to not only tweak the crossover slopes and subwoofer phase on a per-channel basis to make the phase match better through crossover for less cancellation, it also boosts the subwoofer level by 3dB per my measurements, indicating that Onkyo might be dissatisfied with the Audyssey calibration that basically mandates boosting the post-cal subwoofer by at least 3dB to compensate for the anemic-sounding 'flattish' fixed target.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mthomas47 View Post
I don't believe that skipping the phase warning would cause Audyssey to do anything different at all. Of course, if a speaker really were out-of-phase, because it was wired to the AVR wrong, it might play more softly than it should, but that wouldn't apply in your case.
I believe you are correct that skipping the phase warning will have no impact on Audyssey final result but it might impact the performance of the system markedly and also might cause issues with Phase Matching Bass. Such warning, even if 'spurious', still has its roots in a phase issue and warrants at least re-examining the microphone measurement positions if not the room acoustics, speaker placement, and crossover design. At the very least it is prudent to do a manual measurement to determine what the problem is before dismissing it. But that is just the engineer in me talking. I always worry that a defective design will electrocute someone, collapse in an earthquake, or stop the sun from rising in the morning.

Quote:
Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post
It's a bug in the D&M units. Audyssey is setting the delays correctly.
Could you elaborate on that bug? Which distance report corresponds to reality, and why the glitch? I am concerned that with a nearfield sub and two more distant his calibration result might have issues despite the known bug. Maybe it triggered the bug but that does not mean his cal is OK.
mthomas47 likes this.
CherylJosie is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #79622 of 79638 Old 03-23-2016, 10:36 AM
AVS Special Member
 
mthomas47's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Posts: 2,384
Mentioned: 7 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1290 Post(s)
Liked: 1392
Quote:
Originally Posted by CherylJosie View Post
But that is just the engineer in me talking. I always worry that a defective design will electrocute someone, collapse in an earthquake, or stop the sun from rising in the morning.

Hi,

LOL! I tend to be the opposite. I think of it as being pragmatic, but then again, I'll probably be the one electrocuted by a defective design.

I remember your struggle to make Audyssey work, and I have read, on a couple of other threads, about your alternative approach. I have long since become convinced that Audyssey can't work well for everyone, in every room. But, like you, I would expect it to work better as the overall frequency response in the room improves due to acoustical treatments. Still, in the end, it comes down to what sounds better to you. I hope that you will be able to get some benefit from it at some point. I remain convinced that it can be helpful in the modal region in most rooms, although there may potentially be trade-offs in other parts of the frequency range.

Hopefully, your acoustical treatments will neutralize any negative effects higher, while letting you enjoy the benefits of automated EQ below about 200Hz. In my large room, I don't have any real issues with early reflections, but even with bass traps, XT-32 provides some additional clarity that I would hate to be without. If I had to trade that for some issues higher up in the frequency spectrum, though, I'm not sure what I would choose.

Regards,
Mike
garygarrison likes this.
mthomas47 is offline  
post #79623 of 79638 Old 03-23-2016, 12:24 PM
AVS Special Member
 
D Bone's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: SoCal, USA
Posts: 1,468
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 179 Post(s)
Liked: 293
If Audyssey had a switch to limit EQ at say 200, 300 and/or 500hz it would be perfect...... Easy to use, no external hardware other than the AVR and mic needed and fully automatic. Just need to be able to eliminate the harshness that some people hear with Audyssey in their own rooms.
mogorf likes this.

Samsung UN60D6420 ~ DirecTV HR-44 ~ Sony S5100 BD ~ Roku 3 ~ Denon AVR-X3200W ~ SVS Prime Bookshelf L/R ~ SVS Prime Satellite Surrounds ~ Anti-Mode 8033Cinema ~ Power Sound Audio XV15
D Bone is online now  
post #79624 of 79638 Old 03-23-2016, 12:32 PM
AVS Special Member
 
mogorf's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Budapest, Hungary
Posts: 5,500
Mentioned: 5 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 958 Post(s)
Liked: 496
Sorry Guys for this off-topic again, but I need to come back to the issue (read: pain) on non-functioning of the Edit feature. I've already reported my own post to the admins (mods) but still no resolution. Meantime, recenty I've posted on other threads and to my greatest surprise over there the Edit button works. It seems to me to be a glitch only at the this Audyssey thread. I'm on Firefox (45.0.1), but I don't think its a brower issue.

Anyone with any idea? Thx.
garygarrison likes this.
mogorf is online now  
post #79625 of 79638 Old 03-23-2016, 12:36 PM
AVS Special Member
 
D Bone's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: SoCal, USA
Posts: 1,468
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 179 Post(s)
Liked: 293
Quote:
Originally Posted by mogorf View Post
Sorry Guys for this off-topic again, but I need to come back to the issue (read: pain) on non-functioning of the Edit feature. I've already reported my own post to the admins (mods) but still no resolution. Meantime, recenty I've posted on other threads and to my greatest surprise over there the Edit button works. It seems to me to be a glitch only at the this Audyssey thread. I'm on Firefox (45.0.1), but I don't think its a brower issue.

Anyone with any idea? Thx.
Same here Feri. This is the only thread that I can't edit, and worse yet, it sometimes takes my 3-4 tries to actually get my post to go through........ and if I don't copy it before, and it doesn't go through, I lose all of my post and have to start over.

Only this thread.
mogorf and garygarrison like this.

Samsung UN60D6420 ~ DirecTV HR-44 ~ Sony S5100 BD ~ Roku 3 ~ Denon AVR-X3200W ~ SVS Prime Bookshelf L/R ~ SVS Prime Satellite Surrounds ~ Anti-Mode 8033Cinema ~ Power Sound Audio XV15
D Bone is online now  
post #79626 of 79638 Old 03-23-2016, 12:37 PM
AVS Special Member
 
mogorf's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Budapest, Hungary
Posts: 5,500
Mentioned: 5 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 958 Post(s)
Liked: 496
Quote:
Originally Posted by D Bone View Post
If Audyssey had a switch to limit EQ at say 200, 300 and/or 500hz it would be perfect...... Easy to use, no external hardware other than the AVR and mic needed and fully automatic. Just need to be able to eliminate the harshness that some people hear with Audyssey in their own rooms.
D Bone, for this purpose once on this thread I recommended to put MultEQ at second place after XT32. It has the same 128x filter resolution for the subwoofer channel as XT, but does less in the satellite department (2x instead of 16x). Just a thought!

mogorf is online now  
post #79627 of 79638 Old 03-23-2016, 12:39 PM
AVS Special Member
 
mogorf's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Budapest, Hungary
Posts: 5,500
Mentioned: 5 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 958 Post(s)
Liked: 496
Quote:
Originally Posted by D Bone View Post
Same here Feri. This is the only thread that I can't edit, and worse yet, it sometimes takes my 3-4 tries to actually get my post to go through........ and if I don't copy it before, and it doesn't go through, I lose all of my post and have to start over.

Only this thread.


Did you also report the problem? The more report the more attention we may get. Hopefully!
garygarrison likes this.
mogorf is online now  
post #79628 of 79638 Old 03-23-2016, 12:39 PM
AVS Special Member
 
D Bone's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: SoCal, USA
Posts: 1,468
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 179 Post(s)
Liked: 293
Quote:
Originally Posted by mogorf View Post
D Bone, for this purpose once on this thread I recommended to put MultEQ at second place after XT32. It has the same 128x filter resolution for the subwoofer channel as XT, but does less in the satellite department (2x instead of 16x). Just a thought!
That's one way I guess, but I like my idea better.
mogorf likes this.

Samsung UN60D6420 ~ DirecTV HR-44 ~ Sony S5100 BD ~ Roku 3 ~ Denon AVR-X3200W ~ SVS Prime Bookshelf L/R ~ SVS Prime Satellite Surrounds ~ Anti-Mode 8033Cinema ~ Power Sound Audio XV15
D Bone is online now  
post #79629 of 79638 Old 03-23-2016, 12:40 PM
AVS Special Member
 
mthomas47's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Posts: 2,384
Mentioned: 7 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1290 Post(s)
Liked: 1392
Hi Feri,

I think it's been going on for about two months now, and although I also use Firefox and can't edit on this thread with two different computers, I don't think its a browser issue either. I can edit my posts fine on any other threads.

A couple of months ago, the whole website was experiencing problems, including notification issues. I think it was at about that same time that it went from sometimes being difficult to edit posts on this thread, to being impossible to do so. I may look back at some older posts of mine to see when I was last able to edit here. But if I find out anything, I will have to put my results in a new post.

Regards,
Mike
mogorf and garygarrison like this.
mthomas47 is offline  
post #79630 of 79638 Old 03-23-2016, 12:45 PM
AVS Special Member
 
D Bone's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: SoCal, USA
Posts: 1,468
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 179 Post(s)
Liked: 293
Forgot to add - and lord knows I couldn't edit - I use Chrome. < FYI, this post took 3 times to go through. >
mogorf and garygarrison like this.

Samsung UN60D6420 ~ DirecTV HR-44 ~ Sony S5100 BD ~ Roku 3 ~ Denon AVR-X3200W ~ SVS Prime Bookshelf L/R ~ SVS Prime Satellite Surrounds ~ Anti-Mode 8033Cinema ~ Power Sound Audio XV15
D Bone is online now  
post #79631 of 79638 Old 03-23-2016, 12:50 PM
AVS Special Member
 
mogorf's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Budapest, Hungary
Posts: 5,500
Mentioned: 5 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 958 Post(s)
Liked: 496
Quote:
Originally Posted by D Bone View Post
Forgot to add - and lord knows I couldn't edit - I use Chrome. < FYI, this post took 3 times to go through. >
Even though I hit "Like" it doesn't mean I like it!
D Bone likes this.
mogorf is online now  
post #79632 of 79638 Old 03-23-2016, 12:57 PM
Super Moderator
 
markrubin's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2001
Location: Jersey Shore
Posts: 24,848
Mentioned: 7 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 647 Post(s)
Liked: 1448
Quote:
Originally Posted by D Bone View Post
Same here Feri. This is the only thread that I can't edit, and worse yet, it sometimes takes my 3-4 tries to actually get my post to go through........ and if I don't copy it before, and it doesn't go through, I lose all of my post and have to start over.

Only this thread.
yes I see it too, and reported it

the issue is simple: the first post in this thread is from 2007

thread is simply too big....
mogorf likes this.

please take the high road in every post
Please do not respond to or quote a problematic post: report it to Mods to handle
new forum:High Dynamic Range (HDR) & Wide Color Gamut (WCG)
markrubin is offline  
post #79633 of 79638 Old 03-23-2016, 01:03 PM
AVS Special Member
 
mogorf's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Budapest, Hungary
Posts: 5,500
Mentioned: 5 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 958 Post(s)
Liked: 496
Quote:
Originally Posted by markrubin View Post
yes I see it too, and reported it

the issue is simple: the first post in this thread is from 2007

thread is simply too big....
Dear Mark,

Me thinks the other threads are too small! Kudos to AVS for allowing and maintaing such a thread where particular enthusiast can congregate! A minor problem like this Edit malfunction I'm sure can be easily healed!

Best!
D Bone likes this.
mogorf is online now  
post #79634 of 79638 Old 03-23-2016, 01:09 PM
AVS Special Member
 
mthomas47's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Posts: 2,384
Mentioned: 7 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1290 Post(s)
Liked: 1392
Quote:
Originally Posted by mogorf View Post
Dear Mark,

Me thinks the other threads are too small! Kudos to AVS for allowing and maintaing such a thread where particular enthusiast can congregate! A minor problem like this Edit malfunction I'm sure can be easily healed!

Best!

That's funny, Feri! I went back in the thread, and it appears that we have been unable to edit for only about a month, although it seems longer to me. This thread has always had some glitches due to its length, but completely losing the edit function seems to me to be related to the overall website issues that we were experiencing a few weeks ago. If nothing else, there was a coincidence of timing.
D Bone, mogorf and garygarrison like this.
mthomas47 is offline  
post #79635 of 79638 Old 03-23-2016, 01:39 PM
Administrator
 
Mike Lang's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 1999
Posts: 14,997
Mentioned: 40 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 713 Post(s)
Liked: 564
Someone create a Part II thread. The software is bogging down on this which will continue to get worse.

Mike Lang
Administrator
Please use the report post button to alert staff to problematic posts. Never quote or respond to them yourself.
Join the AVS Club and help support the site. Help Support AVS Forum Sponsors.
Mike Lang is offline  
post #79636 of 79638 Old 03-23-2016, 01:48 PM
AVS Special Member
 
mogorf's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Budapest, Hungary
Posts: 5,500
Mentioned: 5 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 958 Post(s)
Liked: 496
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike Lang View Post
Someone create a Part II thread. The software is bogging down on this which will continue to get worse.
Mike, that would be a great idea. Meantime, can the admins at AVS support the idea to put "Part II" into the "Sticky" right below "Part I" and keep it there. That would help enormously, I think, since this is the very most popular, long time and most frequently visited thread here on AVS. Seed for thought! Thanks for your help!
garygarrison likes this.
mogorf is online now  
post #79637 of 79638 Old 03-23-2016, 01:52 PM
AVS Special Member
 
mthomas47's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Posts: 2,384
Mentioned: 7 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1290 Post(s)
Liked: 1392
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike Lang View Post
Someone create a Part II thread. The software is bogging down on this which will continue to get worse.

Mike,

If someone did do that, would there be any drawbacks that you can see? I assume that links to the Set-Up Guide and the FAQ would still work, or perhaps they could even be imported into the beginning of the new thread. I wouldn't be too worried about losing thread search capabilities as the thread is so long as to make those pretty impractical anyway.

If you closed this thread, once the new one was up and running, would there be some kind of message re-directing people to Part II? Unfortunately, I am just trying to explore the issue, and not volunteering to start a new thread. Compared to many people on the Forum, I'm a bit of a doofus about this sort of thing. But, we have plenty of tech savvy people on the thread who could probably do it if the posting/editing situation is not going to improve, and may as you suggested, continue to worsen over time.

Regards,
Mike
mogorf and garygarrison like this.
mthomas47 is offline  
post #79638 of 79638 Old 03-23-2016, 01:59 PM
Administrator
 
Mike Lang's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 1999
Posts: 14,997
Mentioned: 40 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 713 Post(s)
Liked: 564
Continue to "Official" Audyssey thread Part II
markrubin, pepar, pbarach and 2 others like this.

Mike Lang
Administrator
Please use the report post button to alert staff to problematic posts. Never quote or respond to them yourself.
Join the AVS Club and help support the site. Help Support AVS Forum Sponsors.
Mike Lang is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
Closed Thread Receivers, Amps, and Processors

Tags
Audyssey , Receivers Amplifiers , Kef Kht1005 2se 5 1 Subwoofer Satellite System With C4 Subwoofer Gloss White , 5 6 7 1 7 2 Or 8 1 8 2 One Or Two Subwoofer Compatible 16 Banana Post 2 Rca Speaker Wall Plate For H

taboola here


Forum Jump: 

Posting Rules  
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off