"Official" Audyssey thread (FAQ in post #51779) - Page 545 - AVS Forum
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post #16321 of 71889 Old 07-11-2009, 09:12 AM
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Originally Posted by FilmMixer View Post

Chris... I have a new Denon 4310 in my system for a spin... I noticed that when doing my first setup, it had me turn down my sub until it was at an acceptable level... I've never seen this in a setup before..

I assume this is a newer addition to the Aud setup, and was wondering if there are any other "tweaks" in newer processor and AVR implementations?

Yes, Chris has posted that this addition was a result of feedback from the thread. It saves the time of doing a single mic position test and then ending and reviewing before going back and doing all 8 positions.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...7#post16699547
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post #16322 of 71889 Old 07-11-2009, 09:23 AM
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kjgarrison, as I understand it, audyssey sends a ping to each speaker than waits patiently until the sound from the ping reaches the microphone. It simply determines the amount of time it takes from the moment the ping goes forth electronically until it reaches the microphone and calculates distance based on that. Audyssey is not then conducting any processing. It's just looking at how long it takes from electronic ping until the sound reaches the mic, AFAIK. So when, as seems common, subs have distances greater than the physical distance, it is, presumably, because some other process is delaying the signal to the sub's voice coil longer than the signals are delayed on their way to the other speakers' voice coils.
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post #16323 of 71889 Old 07-11-2009, 09:39 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Brian K View Post

I'll give it a whirl, but I thought I'd read somewhere around here that Audyssey isn't balancing the channels to one another so much as they're balancing them all independently against a 75 dB set point. Do I have that mixed up?

This really depends on the AVR and in some cases what firmware version is the AVR is running. Some AVRs always target 75dB to make 0dB on the master volume = reference, others just make sure that the trims are equalized relative to each other.
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post #16324 of 71889 Old 07-11-2009, 11:56 AM
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Originally Posted by audyssey View Post

Do you mean the BGC for the subwoofer? That's there from THX to adjust the sub response when the sub is a corner and suffers from boom. It doesn't really matter where your seats are--it matters where your sub is.

But if the seats are up against the wall, I recommend measuring on the seats, but about 1'-2' from the wall even if that puts the measurements slightly forward from where you head would be.

Chris

Hi Chris,

Part of our confusion about THX BGC feature in THX certified subwoofers originates in our manuals. Here's a quote from the Onkyo PR-SC886 manual:

Quote:


If you’re using a THX-certified subwoofer, set the “THX
Subwoofer” setting to “Yes”. You can then apply THX’s
Boundary Gain Compensation (BGC) to compensate the
perceived exaggeration of low frequencies for listeners
sitting very close to a room boundary
(i.e., wall).

I have a THX-Ultra certified subwoofer, a Velodyne DD-15. So far I have turned off the BGC feature and just relied on Audyssey correction.

Here is my room layout:



The back of my subwoofer is roughly a foot away from a wall, and two of my seats are about 2.5 feet from a wall, the rest are several feet away with the next closest seating being about 4 feet from a wall.

In your opinion would there be any advantage of turning on BGC?

If I did I assume that I would have to rerun Audyssey to deal with a revised frequency response from the subwoofer?

Thanks.

Larry

EDIT:
PS: I was wondering whether BGC might be useful for either situation where the subwoofer or the seating was close to a room boundary? What got me thinking was the so-called "sub crawl" procedure whereby you place the subwoofer in the seating locations and then crawl around the room listening for the best subwoofer location.

It seems to me that even if BGC were a useful feature, that it should only be used for the primary seating location. Otherwise, it seems that the BGC could be correcting for say the "cheap seats" near the walls while adversely impacting the "money seat(s)".
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post #16325 of 71889 Old 07-11-2009, 12:17 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LarryChanin View Post

PS: I was wondering whether BGC might be useful for either situation where the subwoofer or the seating was close to a room boundary? What got me thinking was the so-called "sub crawl" procedure whereby you place the subwoofer in the seating locations and then crawl around the room listening for the best subwoofer location.

It seems to me that even if BGC were a useful feature, that it should only be used for the primary seating location. Otherwise, it seems that the BGC could be correcting for say the "cheap seats" near the walls while adversely impacting the "money seat(s)".

I'm pretty sure that BGC corrects the speaker(s) for the room, not the speaker(s) for people in the room.
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post #16326 of 71889 Old 07-11-2009, 01:29 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kjgarrison View Post

Yes, I realize that the sound from the closer speakers is delayed in order to sychronize arrival time of the sound from all speakers at LP1.

Whether it is Audyssey or Denon that calculates and sets the delay required for (in my case) the subwoofer isn't really important to me. The delay is based on measurements taken during Audyssey sweeps, and the distance information is in the "Audyssey" section.

Clearly the baseline measurement of distances is a major factor in deteremining the delay(s) needed. Audyssey measures this, and there seems to be some confusion as to what the number reported by Audyssey/Denon actually means.

Is it actual physical distance on which the calculations for delay(s) are made?

OR

Is it a virtual distance that already includes the calculations needed to set the delay and synchronize sound at LP1?

More often it seems that it is a virtual distance. Explanations like this: A subwoofer's distance is greater than the actual physical distance and that is attributed to a signal processing. The processing takes time, so the "distance" is set farther away than 'actual', so that to compensate the signal needs to start earlier, making the sub the baseline distance. The mains (and others) then would have to be delayed.

In my case the sub's distance, as reported by Audyssey/Denon is shorter than actual by about 2'. I read in this thread that that's an basically unexplained anomaly. But the more I think about it, the more I think it should be something less than actual, based on the overall shape of my front soundstage. My subwoofer is actually closer than the mains (height vs hypotenuse of a right triangle), so my sub needs to be delayed.

So, it seems that processing requires a greater virtual distance than actual for the processed speaker, giving the speaker a head start, so to speak, by delaying the other speakers. And configuration of speakers would require a shorter virtual distance than actual for closer speakers, giving them a delay and causing them to wait. The final result could be anywhere in between.

It is still confusing that it always seems to be the subwoofer that gets adjusted. If there is processing involved and the delay is applied to the other speakers, why isn't their virtual distance shorter than actual?

I still would like to be able to ping the speakers and measure for myself, but without that ability it is back to just trusting Audyssey (&Denon).

The settings are based upon the acoustic distances with any processing delay automatically figured in (comes out in the wash). It's all relative, too, btw. So, theoretically, you could set the closest speakers to 0' and set all the other speaker distances relatively. So, for example, instead of setting the fronts to 10' and the surrounds to 5', you could set the fronts to 5' and the surrounds to 0'. The result would be the same.

As far as trusting Audyssey, measuring the distances of the speakers is something that it is able to do very well. The subwoofer distance is more complicated and I do not fully understand it, but I do not think you should worry about trusting Audyssey. I think there is more involved there than simply the processing delay. With multiple subwoofers at different distances, Audyssey is still able to determine a "correct" distance setting.

"All men are frauds. The only difference between them is that some admit it. I myself deny it."
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post #16327 of 71889 Old 07-11-2009, 01:50 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kjgarrison View Post


Is it actual physical distance on which the calculations for delay(s) are made?

OR

Is it a virtual distance that already includes the calculations needed to set the delay and synchronize sound at LP1?

Neither. The measuring process doesn't measure distance, it measures a time delay. Since most users can't check the time delay because they don't have instruments to measure a delay of the order of, say, 5 to 15 ms or so, the receiver manufacture has their software kindly convert this delay to a distance which you can then check much more easily. Any slight inaccuracies in the distance due to differences in the speed of sound related to air density variation due to altitude, barometric pressure, and relative humidity are going to be too small to be an issue when dealing with the delays involved.

In working out the delays to use, the receiver simply uses the difference in the actual delay times. If there's a 15 ms delay for the most distant speaker (= to approx 15' distance) and a 10 ms delay from the closest speaker (= to a 10' distance) the signal to the closest speaker is simply delayed 5 ms. Distances don't come into the calculation at all.

The only reason you are given any info on speaker distance is simply to make it easy for you to easily do a check on something which corresponds fairly closely to the measured delay. Most people can check that the speaker is 10' away from them a hell of a lot more easily and quickly than they can check that it the sound from it takes 9.09 ms to reach them.
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post #16328 of 71889 Old 07-11-2009, 01:57 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LarryChanin View Post

Hi Chris,

Part of our confusion about THX BGC feature in THX certified subwoofers originates in our manuals.

Hi Larry,

BGC is a fancy name for a parametric EQ band. It can be useful if properly applied, but it is a generic adjustment and is not customized for your subwoofer and your room. I would recommend leaving it off if you use MultEQ because the effects of the specific subwoofer and boundary interaction in your room will be compensated by the MultEQ measurements.

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post #16329 of 71889 Old 07-11-2009, 06:15 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by volcanoron View Post

I guess Cheap is a Preceptive term. My Rf-62's don't embarrass me at all. Glad your getting some good sounds.
Ron

Quote:
Originally Posted by aboulfad View Post

I am using 320Kpbs AAC on my PS3, i listenned to Pavlo (Guitar), Damian's Fire, & given that i have cheap speakers (RF62), it is acceptable. The difference is there and noticeable. Audyssey is on for my TV, music & blu ray movies.

Hi aboulfad,

Nice setup, but I must disagree with you calling $500 per speaker cheap. Compared to Klipch's $20K P-39F or some other $50k speakers, the RF-62's are less expensive, but cheap (not very good), I think not! Cheap speakers are tiny little satellites that can't move air. If a speaker is too small to move a lot of air, it's cheap and sounds "cheap". That speaker is rated by Klipch down to 38Hz. That's no slouch.

By the way, playing ripped cd's on to a PS3's HDD will only playback at 48Khz instead of the 44.1Khz that playing the actual cd will achieve. It sounds like sh** at 48Khz. Way to much distortion. I know, I have an external HDD hooked up to my PS3 with full 1411.2 Kbps wav files and it still sounds pretty crappy compared to the actual cd being played. I've been harassing Sony for 2 years to improve music playback from a HDD. They don't seem to care. SACD's sound great though.

On my main system I have a dedicated Music PC that has an excellent sound card that outputs at 44.1 KHz. It sounds awesome. Do a Google search about playback sampling rates. Really interesting stuff and well worth the effort.

Last thing so that I may stay on topic. Make sure you try the music as per above with it set to Stereo Mode, Audyssey flat setting, 80Hz crossover and turn up your sub a bit from the Denon's channel level trim's. Rock on my friend. Your system should be able to kick some royal a**!
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post #16330 of 71889 Old 07-11-2009, 06:45 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by brock1 View Post

Hi aboulfad,

Nice setup, but I must disagree with you calling $500 per speaker cheap. Compared to Klipch's $20K P-39F or some other $50k speakers, the RF-62's are less expensive, but cheap (not very good), I think not! Cheap speakers are tiny little satellites that can't move air. If a speaker is too small to move a lot of air, it's cheap and sounds "cheap". That speaker is rated by Klipch down to 38Hz. That's no slouch.

By the way, playing ripped cd's on to a PS3's HDD will only playback at 48Khz instead of the 44.1Khz that playing the actual cd will achieve. It sounds like sh** at 48Khz. Way to much distortion. I know, I have an external HDD hooked up to my PS3 with full 1411.2 Kbps wav files and it still sounds pretty crappy compared to the actual cd being played. I've been harassing Sony for 2 years to improve music playback from a HDD. They don't seem to care. SACD's sound great though.

On my main system I have a dedicated Music PC that has an excellent sound card that outputs at 44.1 KHz. It sounds awesome. Do a Google search about playback sampling rates. Really interesting stuff and well worth the effort.

Last thing so that I may stay on topic. Make sure you try the music as per above with it set to Stereo Mode, Audyssey flat setting, 80Hz crossover and turn up your sub a bit from the Denon's channel level trim's. Rock on my friend. Your system should be able to kick some royal a**!

sorry i didnt mean to offend anyone, but when you see what people have on these forums, the RF62 are like "cheaper" i.e. less costly, that's what i meant to say ...

Thanks for the PS3 info, didnt know ! and i found 80Hz crossover was too much bass and almost over-powering the music. I havent tried Audyssey flat, i will try that.
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post #16331 of 71889 Old 07-11-2009, 06:50 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by audyssey View Post

No...it's not there. Denon decided not to include it...

How is a consumer to know which Audyssey pieces the AV Receiver company has included in their products? Generally does Onkyo include more pieces than Denon? I have been reading a lot of posts that indicate Onkyo has a more complete Audyssey implementation. Any guidance? I wish Audyssey would have a comparison on their website of which pieces are implemented. I have seen the page on their website that shows the AV receivers that come with Auyssey but it only shows the main modules (MultiEQ, Dynamic Volume, etc). It does not show how granular the different companies have integrated the technology!
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post #16332 of 71889 Old 07-11-2009, 07:17 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aboulfad View Post

sorry i didnt mean to offend anyone, but when you see what people have on these forums, the RF62 are like "cheaper" i.e. less costly, that's what i meant to say ...

Thanks for the PS3 info, didnt know ! and i found 80Hz crossover was too much bass and almost over-powering the music. I havent tried Audyssey flat, i will try that.

No offence taken. I just think you have a great pair of speakers. I have a set of RF-35's with dual 12" subs that will bring my house down when their cranking 105db's. Crisp, clear and punchy. Some people don't like horn drivers, but I'm a fan or I wouldn't have bought them.

Did you do a pre setup of Audyssey to get your sub in check for all 8 positions. It should be +/- 3db of 0 on the trim level on the 1st measured position. I'd bet in your room you'd have to turn down the gain on the back of that sub to 8 or 9 o'clock to get it tamed in your bare room. Follow the Audyssey guide to the letter, especially sub setup portion, and you can't go wrong.

Brock
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post #16333 of 71889 Old 07-11-2009, 08:20 PM
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Originally Posted by brock1 View Post

No offence taken. I just think you have a great pair of speakers. I have a set of RF-35's with dual 12" subs that will bring my house down when their cranking 105db's. Crisp, clear and punchy. Some people don't like horn drivers, but I'm a fan or I wouldn't have bought them.

Did you do a pre setup of Audyssey to get your sub in check for all 8 positions. It should be +/- 3db of 0 on the trim level on the 1st measured position. I'd bet in your room you'd have to turn down the gain on the back of that sub to 8 or 9 o'clock to get it tamed in your bare room. Follow the Audyssey guide to the letter, especially sub setup portion, and you can't go wrong.

Brock

yes ! the gain knob on my SB12+ is between 8 & 9 oclock for a trim level of 0dB ! and the bass output is still very strong. I followed the Audyssey guide to the letter.

(to be honest, i bought the Klipsch without listening to them, and I think i am not a fan of horn speakers, a bit too bright)

BTW, what sound card do you have ? that was an eye opener, even the CD setting on my PS3 was using 48Khz, i went in and disables manually the 2ch PCM upsampled frequencies.
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post #16334 of 71889 Old 07-11-2009, 08:49 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JHAz View Post

kjgarrison, as I understand it, audyssey sends a ping to each speaker than waits patiently until the sound from the ping reaches the microphone. It simply determines the amount of time it takes from the moment the ping goes forth electronically until it reaches the microphone and calculates distance based on that. Audyssey is not then conducting any processing. It's just looking at how long it takes from electronic ping until the sound reaches the mic, AFAIK. So when, as seems common, subs have distances greater than the physical distance, it is, presumably, because some other process is delaying the signal to the sub's voice coil longer than the signals are delayed on their way to the other speakers' voice coils.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sivadselim View Post

The settings are based upon the acoustic distances with any processing delay automatically figured in (comes out in the wash). It's all relative, too, btw. So, theoretically, you could set the closest speakers to 0' and set all the other speaker distances relatively. So, for example, instead of setting the fronts to 10' and the surrounds to 5', you could set the fronts to 5' and the surrounds to 0'. The result would be the same.

As far as trusting Audyssey, measuring the distances of the speakers is something that it is able to do very well. The subwoofer distance is more complicated and I do not fully understand it, but I do not think you should worry about trusting Audyssey. I think there is more involved there than simply the processing delay. With multiple subwoofers at different distances, Audyssey is still able to determine a "correct" distance setting.

Quote:
Originally Posted by David Aiken View Post

Neither. The measuring process doesn't measure distance, it measures a time delay. Since most users can't check the time delay because they don't have instruments to measure a delay of the order of, say, 5 to 15 ms or so, the receiver manufacture has their software kindly convert this delay to a distance which you can then check much more easily. Any slight inaccuracies in the distance due to differences in the speed of sound related to air density variation due to altitude, barometric pressure, and relative humidity are going to be too small to be an issue when dealing with the delays involved.

In working out the delays to use, the receiver simply uses the difference in the actual delay times. If there's a 15 ms delay for the most distant speaker (= to approx 15' distance) and a 10 ms delay from the closest speaker (= to a 10' distance) the signal to the closest speaker is simply delayed 5 ms. Distances don't come into the calculation at all.

The only reason you are given any info on speaker distance is simply to make it easy for you to easily do a check on something which corresponds fairly closely to the measured delay. Most people can check that the speaker is 10' away from them a hell of a lot more easily and quickly than they can check that it the sound from it takes 9.09 ms to reach them.

ahem ..

Did anybody actually read what I wrote? My sub's "distance" is NOT greater than actual distance. It is significantly less, 25% less, and it has nothing to do with the temperature or humidity, otherwise all the measurements would be off in the same way and to the same degree. It does NOT have anything to do with delay because of processing. It is the opposite of delay for the sub. Furthermore the other speakers' distances are accurate to within an inch.
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post #16335 of 71889 Old 07-11-2009, 09:47 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thomasamiller View Post

How is a consumer to know which Audyssey pieces the AV Receiver company has included in their products? Generally does Onkyo include more pieces than Denon? I have been reading a lot of posts that indicate Onkyo has a more complete Audyssey implementation. Any guidance? I wish Audyssey would have a comparison on their website of which pieces are implemented. I have seen the page on their website that shows the AV receivers that come with Auyssey but it only shows the main modules (MultiEQ, Dynamic Volume, etc). It does not show how granular the different companies have integrated the technology!

How many "Audyssey pieces" do you think there are? Seems to me there is 2EQ, MultEQ, MultEQ XT, Dynamic Volume, Dynamic EQ, and settings to compensate Dynamic EQ (and maybe Dynamic Volume) for various sources. THOSE are Audyssey's products. I am ignoring the Pro versions, DSX, and other stand alone Audyssey products. What the manufacturers do outside of that product line is their own choosing. Audyssey doesn't set the crossovers or say if the speakers are large or small, the manufacturers do that.

As far as figuring out what the manufacturers are doing, I find a visit to their website and download of the operator's manual will answer those questions.
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post #16336 of 71889 Old 07-11-2009, 09:51 PM
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Originally Posted by kjgarrison View Post

ahem ..

Did anybody actually read what I wrote? My sub's "distance" is NOT greater than actual distance. It is significantly less, 25% less, and it has nothing to do with the temperature or humidity, otherwise all the measurements would be off in the same way and to the same degree. It does NOT have anything to do with delay because of processing. It is the opposite of delay for the sub. Furthermore the other speakers' distances are accurate to within an inch.

And Chris has said on many occasions that they have not figured out why some subs measure closer then they are physically. What YOU haven't said is how the systems sounds. If it sounds good to you, what is the problem?
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post #16337 of 71889 Old 07-12-2009, 12:09 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kjgarrison View Post

ahem ..

Did anybody actually read what I wrote? My sub's "distance" is NOT greater than actual distance. It is significantly less, 25% less, and it has nothing to do with the temperature or humidity, otherwise all the measurements would be off in the same way and to the same degree. It does NOT have anything to do with delay because of processing. It is the opposite of delay for the sub. Furthermore the other speakers' distances are accurate to within an inch.

I read what you wrote and I don't know enough to comment on the reported distance issue.

You also asked whether the receiver calculated delays based on actual distances or a virtual distance. I could answer that question and I did. It does not calculate delays based on distances, it calculates them based on the time differences in sound arriving from each speaker.

I purposely left out the rest of your post in the text I quoted apart from the specific question in order to indicate that I was only answering the question about how delays are calculated. Distance doesn't come into it, only the actual differences in the measured arrival delays.
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post #16338 of 71889 Old 07-12-2009, 12:13 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thomasamiller View Post

How is a consumer to know which Audyssey pieces the AV Receiver company has included in their products? Generally does Onkyo include more pieces than Denon? I have been reading a lot of posts that indicate Onkyo has a more complete Audyssey implementation. Any guidance? I wish Audyssey would have a comparison on their website of which pieces are implemented. I have seen the page on their website that shows the AV receivers that come with Auyssey but it only shows the main modules (MultiEQ, Dynamic Volume, etc). It does not show how granular the different companies have integrated the technology!

The differences have to do with how each manufacturer designs their products. There is absolutely no difference in the core Audyssey algorithms found in each model.

1) Denon shows the MultEQ filters with a nicer graph in the higher end models and a crude parametric graph in the lower end models. Onkyo doesn't show the filters at all.

2) Denon allows the user to select between Audyssey Reference and Audyssey Flat. Onkyo makes that selection automatically (Audyssey Reference always, Audyssey Flat if you switch to THX mode)

3) Denon has three pre-sets for Dynamic Volume and Onkyo has two

4) Dynamic EQ is identically implemented in all models

The full list of current products with Audyssey and the exact technology in them is here:
http://www.audyssey.com/products/consumer_ready.html

The differences in resolution between MultEQ and MultEQ XT is described here:
http://www.audyssey.com/technology/multEQ_products.html

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post #16339 of 71889 Old 07-12-2009, 12:34 AM
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I just ran audyssey on my Onkyo sr805 and these are the results.
FL & FR Full band, Center 70Hz, Surr's Full band, Surr's backs 90Hz and LPF of LFE 80Hz and double bass on. Does this sound right. I'm using a velodyne ct-120 with NHT speakers for 7.1 set up. Thanks

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post #16340 of 71889 Old 07-12-2009, 04:36 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jsil View Post

I just ran audyssey on my Onkyo sr805 and these are the results.
FL & FR Full band, Center 70Hz, Surr's Full band, Surr's backs 90Hz and LPF of LFE 80Hz and double bass on. Does this sound right. I'm using a velodyne ct-120 with NHT speakers for 7.1 set up. Thanks

I would cross your "Full band speakers" at 60 hz or 80 hz, leave the double bass off, and change your LPF to 120 Hz (as per the setup guide).
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post #16341 of 71889 Old 07-12-2009, 06:44 AM
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Audyssey Subwoofer Distance Setting = 1.8'.

Subwoofer(s) physical distance = 12' 4"

Hmmmmm...
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

After some interesting experimentation with pepar using the Audyssey-based AS-EQ1, and the concomitant dismantling and restructuring of my system:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...793007&page=38
I put it all back to it's original configuration today. I then re-ran Audyssey. When it finished up, I checked the speaker config's, distances, levels, etc. Everything looked fine... except the subwoofer distance setting, which was measured at 1.8'. Since both of my subs are actually 12' 3" away from th primary LP, I was confused by the Audyssey setting. Audyssey had never found the subs that close before, and it had always "nailed" the distance measurement.

Then it dawned on me...

I left my Crowson tactile transducer on during the measurement process.
http://www.crowsontech.com/go/crowso...opDefault.aspx
I use a short mic stand to hold the Audyssey mic, placed on the back of my seating for the measurements. The tactile transducer is placed underneath the framework of the seating. Could the vibration of the tactile transducer be transmitted through the seating to the mic? Seemed like a plausible explanation.

I didn't even bother to listen to that Audyssey run. I just shut off the transducer and re-ran Audyssey. This time it "found" the subs at their correct 12.2' distance. I am lead to the conclusion that the transducer was influencing the distance measurement, (and probably the FR measurements as well.) It makes sense that the direct mechanical connection between the transducer and the mic would be shorter than the "acoustic" connection between the subs and the mic.

I have seen other posters question a "too short" distance measurement. I've also seen posters who have concerns about VLF boosting by Audyssey. I wonder if any of these users have tactile transducers in their systems, (i.e., "Buttkickers", "Aura Pro Bass Shakers", Earthquake Sound "Quakes", Crowson transducers, etc.), and whether those transducers were on or off during the measurements.

In any event, turning off my tactile transducer corrected my inappropriate distance measurement. Anyone running an Audyssey measurement ought to be aware of the potential problem. giomania, can you add a sentence or two in your setup guide to make users aware of this?

Craig

Lombardi said it:
Perfection is not attainable, but if we chase perfection we can catch excellence."

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post #16342 of 71889 Old 07-12-2009, 07:14 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by craig john View Post

Audyssey Subwoofer Distance Setting = 1.8'.
Subwoofer(s) physical distance = 12' 4"...
Then it dawned on me...
I left my Crowson tactile transducer on during the measurement process.
I use a short mic stand to hold the Audyssey mic, placed on the back of my seating for the measurements. The tactile transducer is placed underneath the framework of the seating. Could the vibration of the tactile transducer be transmitted through the seating to the mic? Seemed like a plausible explanation...I just shut off the transducer and re-ran Audyssey. This time it "found" the subs at their correct 12.2' distance. I am lead to the conclusion that the transducer was influencing the distance measurement, (and probably the FR measurements as well.) It makes sense that the direct mechanical connection between the transducer and the mic would be shorter than the "acoustic" connection between the subs and the mic... giomania, can you add a sentence or two in your setup guide to make users aware of this?Craig

Craig, excellent observation. I was about to suggest to kjgarrison that he investigate the possibility of low freq transmission through solids (transmits faster than thru air) as a possible cause of his anomolous low sub distance reading. IIRC we have seen this solvable problem with a tripod sitting on a resonant surface (leather seat) and with a mic stand pushed up against a table.

Yes, I still like playing with Dalis.

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post #16343 of 71889 Old 07-12-2009, 08:21 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SoundofMind View Post

Craig, excellent observation. I was about to suggest to kjgarrison that he investigate the possibility of low freq transmission through solids (transmits faster than thru air) as a possible cause of his anomolous low sub distance reading. IIRC we have seen this solvable problem with a tripod sitting on a resonant surface (leather seat) and with a mic stand pushed up against a table.

Thanks. The tripod sits on a very soft fabric, pillowy, couch which is itself sitting on a rug. But not a bad idea, considering.
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post #16344 of 71889 Old 07-12-2009, 08:35 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kjgarrison View Post

Thanks. The tripod sits on a very soft fabric, pillowy, couch which is itself sitting on a rug. But not a bad idea, considering.

I think you should not have the tripod standing on anything but the floor, soft pillowy couch or not.
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post #16345 of 71889 Old 07-12-2009, 09:06 AM
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Ran Aud on my new AVR-980 and noticed that when it got to testing the sub signal, the "bumps" were SO faint it had to up them three times, then it ran the tests at that volume level. Then at the end, displaying results, I noticed it had "+12 db" for sub. Is that a little crazy?
I'm running dual subs (built in powered 12" in my JBL S412PII fronts) and I set the gain dials to 12 o'clock middle, as instructed by the Audyssey directions.

My basic question is, is this "+12" alarming at all and perhaps detrimental? Is there a "max" that Audyssey applies and perhaps I am maxed out?

What makes me NOT worry is that I'm sitting here listening to some Joyful Noice (love me some DTB) and it sounds just gorgous. Plenty of smooth bass, it seems. Also, I did up the LFP for LFE to 120, up fromthe 80 that Aud set.

Thanks
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post #16346 of 71889 Old 07-12-2009, 09:31 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by craig john View Post

Audyssey Subwoofer Distance Setting = 1.8'.

Subwoofer(s) physical distance = 12' 4"

Hmmmmm...
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

After some interesting experimentation with pepar using the Audyssey-based AS-EQ1, and the concomitant dismantling and restructuring of my system:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...793007&page=38
I put it all back to it's original configuration today. I then re-ran Audyssey. When it finished up, I checked the speaker config's, distances, levels, etc. Everything looked fine... except the subwoofer distance setting, which was measured at 1.8'. Since both of my subs are actually 12' 3" away from th primary LP, I was confused by the Audyssey setting. Audyssey had never found the subs that close before, and it had always "nailed" the distance measurement.

Then it dawned on me...

I left my Crowson tactile transducer on during the measurement process.
http://www.crowsontech.com/go/crowso...opDefault.aspx
I use a short mic stand to hold the Audyssey mic, placed on the back of my seating for the measurements. The tactile transducer is placed underneath the framework of the seating. Could the vibration of the tactile transducer be transmitted through the seating to the mic? Seemed like a plausible explanation.

I didn't even bother to listen to that Audyssey run. I just shut off the transducer and re-ran Audyssey. This time it "found" the subs at their correct 12.2' distance. I am lead to the conclusion that the transducer was influencing the distance measurement, (and probably the FR measurements as well.) It makes sense that the direct mechanical connection between the transducer and the mic would be shorter than the "acoustic" connection between the subs and the mic.

I have seen other posters question a "too short" distance measurement. I've also seen posters who have concerns about VLF boosting by Audyssey. I wonder if any of these users have tactile transducers in their systems, (i.e., "Buttkickers", "Aura Pro Bass Shakers", Earthquake Sound "Quakes", Crowson transducers, etc.), and whether those transducers were on or off during the measurements.

In any event, turning off my tactile transducer corrected my inappropriate distance measurement. Anyone running an Audyssey measurement ought to be aware of the potential problem. giomania, can you add a sentence or two in your setup guide to make users aware of this?

Craig

Craig, we covered this a few months back, with these recommendations:

- Do not put the mic support on anything that will resonate when the test tones are played.
- Use of a microphone boom stand with an adapter is recommended to isolate the mic when being placed over seating locations
- Do not use a tripod sitting on a couch, especially taut leather couches

I guess we can add yours as well

- Turn off tactile transducers

BTW- I also have BK's and turn those off before measurements.

Failure to adhere to the above guidelines has been proven to result in too short a sub distance.
Even accidentally placing the mic stand in direct contact with furniture has yielded these incorrect results.

However, we still have one or two 'mystery' short readings from fellow-members who've tried all of the above. All I could surmise is their mic is resonating, and nothing short of the type of isolated mount the Audyssey Pro kit includes would address that.

Links to relevant posts on the topic:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...php?p=16221825
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...php?p=16224812
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post #16347 of 71889 Old 07-12-2009, 09:57 AM
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[quote=audyssey;16807232]Eric,

When you have no sub, it is impossible to have the front L and R speaker set to anything but Large. Large is a silly industry term that means: don't send bass from these speakers to the subwoofer. In your case, if there is no subwoofer then Large is the only possible choice.

Audyssey recommends always setting the speakers to Small when you have a subwoofer in your system even if your receiver decides to set them to Large. More on that here:


Just wanted to thank Chris and everyone else for their help and quick replies. Have left everything as is except to raise the LPF to 120. Sounds great. Will get some better fronts next.
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post #16348 of 71889 Old 07-12-2009, 10:12 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JonFo View Post

Craig, we covered this a few months back, with these recommendations:

- Do not put the mic support on anything that will resonate when the test tones are played.
- Use of a microphone boom stand with an adapter is recommended to isolate the mic when being placed over seating locations
- Do not use a tripod sitting on a couch, especially taught leather couches

I guess we can add yours as well

- Turn off tactile transducers

BTW- I also have BK's and turn those off before measurements.

Failure to adhere to the above guidelines has been proven to result in too short a sub distance.
Even accidentally placing the mic stand in direct contact with furniture has yielded these incorrect results.

However, we still have one or two 'mystery' short readings from fellow-members who've tried all of the above. All I could surmise is their mic is resonating, and nothing short of the type of isolated mount the Audyssey Pro kit includes would address that.

Links to relevant posts on the topic:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...php?p=16221825
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...php?p=16224812

Thank you for re-posting.
I was going to do both of these tonight:
- Use of a microphone boom stand with an adapter is recommended to isolate the mic when being placed over seating locations
- Do not use a tripod sitting on a couch, especially taught leather couches



I guess I'll go buy the boom/adapter I was holding out on.

Thanks again.

Mike
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post #16349 of 71889 Old 07-12-2009, 10:56 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ezatnova View Post

Ran Aud on my new AVR-980 and noticed that when it got to testing the sub signal, the "bumps" were SO faint it had to up them three times, then it ran the tests at that volume level. Then at the end, displaying results, I noticed it had "+12 db" for sub. Is that a little crazy?
I'm running dual subs (built in powered 12" in my JBL S412PII fronts) and I set the gain dials to 12 o'clock middle, as instructed by the Audyssey directions.

My basic question is, is this "+12" alarming at all and perhaps detrimental? Is there a "max" that Audyssey applies and perhaps I am maxed out?

What makes me NOT worry is that I'm sitting here listening to some Joyful Noice (love me some DTB) and it sounds just gorgous. Plenty of smooth bass, it seems. Also, I did up the LFP for LFE to 120, up fromthe 80 that Aud set.

Thanks

The test signal in the sub can sound faint for two reasons: (1) the sub level is too low and (2) there is a lowpass filter in the sub that is set too low. Remember, our hearing in the low frequencies is tens of dB less sensitive so it will sound softer especially if the lowpass filter is interfering.

I would recommend checking that the filter in the sub is turned off or that you are using an input that bypasses that filter. Some subs don't provide either of these options so you should turn the knob up to the highest frequency and leave it there.

Finally, turn your sub volume knob up a bit as well just to avoid having to run the trim in the AVR so close to its limit.

Please note that it's not Audyssey that sets the 80 Hz LPF. It's the manufacturer. This should not even be an adjustable setting. It should always be 120 Hz.

Chris

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post #16350 of 71889 Old 07-12-2009, 12:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pepar View Post

I think you should not have the tripod standing on anything but the floor, soft pillowy couch or not.

Hmmmm ....

I need some help in visualizing how to have a tripod standing on the floor holding the mic in the center of the sofa. (I do put it on the floor for the measurements in front of and behind the 1,2,and 3 listening postions.)
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