"Official" Audyssey thread (FAQ in post #51779) - Page 553 - AVS Forum
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post #16561 of 71753 Old 07-16-2009, 08:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by audyssey View Post

The reality is that the AVR is blissfully unaware of the existence of a subwoofer processor.

What I am trying to convey is that Audyssey MultEQ Pro (the software) can be told (by the installer) that a Sub Equalizer is in the mix (isn't something very similar already done in the SubEQ software for the SVS AS-EQ1 to tell it that MultEQ is in the mix?). Therefore, no matter what information the AVR passes back to Audyssey MultEQ Pro for each sub boink (produced by the AVR), Audyssey MultEQ Pro could ignore those values and use perfect/flat/whatever values in their place when calculating the sub filter that Audyssey MultEQ Pro uploads to the AVR in the end. The AVR doesn't need to know about any of this, just Audyssey MultEQ Pro (the software on the PC). What the AVR doesn't know, doesn't hurt it.

Furthermore, since the AVR waits for the installer to move the Pro mic to the next position (position 2), here is a good time to have the Sub Equalizer connected to the PC as well. Here, Audyssey MultEQ Pro could tell the Sub Equalizer to do its boink(s) using the exact same mic position. Then after those measurements are collected and transferred from the Sub Equalizer to Audyssey MultEQ Pro, the installer would then be told to move the Pro mic to the next position. This whole time, the AVR is still thinking the installer is moving the Pro mic to the next position (position 2).

For this to work, the Pro mic would either...
1) have to be connected to the Sub Equalizer and passed thru to the AVR. Audyssey Pro would have to tell the Sub Equalizer which boinks to pass thru for the AVR and which to keep for it's use. Each piece of hardware would be responsible for passing what they "heard" back to Audyssey MultEQ Pro (either by serial or USB cable).
2) have to be connected and dis-connected between each piece of hardware between mic positions if there is not a pass thru option on the back of the unit (somewhat similar to the SVS AS-EQ1).

Here I go again over simplifying things and mucking up the thread

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post #16562 of 71753 Old 07-16-2009, 08:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by counsil View Post

I can see why this wouldn't be the case. The Audyssey Pro mic is calibrated with it's preamp in place. Using the Sub Equalizer as a pass thru to the AVR for the non-sub boinks could skew the results since all three weren't calibrated together.

I guess you could unplug the Pro mic from the Sub Equalizer and connect it to the AVR between mic positions. Of course that would be just as much a pain as doing totally different mic positions for each.

You're stretching a bit much now.
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post #16563 of 71753 Old 07-16-2009, 08:39 PM
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Originally Posted by Gary J View Post

I didn't see him indicate he had that choice for those seats or are you just making an observation?

Yes.
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post #16564 of 71753 Old 07-16-2009, 08:42 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by audyssey View Post

Because there is no other way to do it. The two devices don't talk to each other in any way. They have to be calibrated separately.

This would all be possible if Audyssey was in charge of making the AVRs.

Yeah, how's that going?
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post #16565 of 71753 Old 07-16-2009, 08:42 PM
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Originally Posted by pepar View Post

Yeah, how's that going?

Any day now...

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post #16566 of 71753 Old 07-16-2009, 08:46 PM
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hi audyssey.

i ran mine (onkyo SR606) many times it gives me the same value so i guess that is what the machine hears.

front: -3 (12feet)
centre: +1 (i changed to +2) (12feet)
left: -3 (12feet)
surround F and R: +2 (8' and 7')
SW: -10 (14')

i have to set my volume to around 40 or 50 and when i get to the 71 (max volume). can't i increase the main FR so the volume is louder? would that destroy the set-up using the mic?

my sub is firing perdendicular to where i sit. is that why it's giving me a distance of 14'? how can i change that the set-up so it goes down to closer to 0? i turned the volume down behind my sub and ran it again but it didn't do a thing.... still -10 and 14'.
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post #16567 of 71753 Old 07-16-2009, 08:46 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by counsil View Post

What I am trying to convey is that Audyssey MultEQ Pro (the software) can be told (by the installer) that a Sub Equalizer is in the mix (isn't something very similar already done in the SubEQ software for the SVS AS-EQ1 to tell it that MultEQ is in the mix?). Therefore, no matter what information the AVR passes back to Audyssey MultEQ Pro for each sub boink (produced by the AVR), Audyssey MultEQ Pro could ignore those values and use perfect/flat/whatever values in their place when calculating the sub filter that Audyssey MultEQ Pro uploads to the AVR in the end. The AVR doesn't need to know about any of this, just Audyssey MultEQ Pro (the software on the PC). What the AVR doesn't know, doesn't hurt it.

There are some good ideas here Doug. Something that we can look at as we update the software. The key is to keep it simple and avoid plugging and unplugging mics. But please keep in mind that this is not a huge issue. If the Sub Equalizer has done its job then the MultEQ XT filter in the AVR will have very little to do.

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post #16568 of 71753 Old 07-16-2009, 08:47 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pepar View Post

Not Chris . .

First the Sub Equalizer is setup with the Pro software. And then the AVR is calibrated with the Pro software. The "through" part is that the Sub Equalizer is "between" the AVR and the sub(s). With the Sub Equalizer already set up, MultEQ Pro should have very little to do on that channel, but it will boink the sub(s) through the Sub Equalizer and create some non-unity filters.

Chris,

The post before this deals mostly with "usuability" of the software (Audyssey MultEQ Pro), therefore I really don't care about how your team designed it to "get things done". However, above pepar mentions that the Audyssey MultEQ Pro calibration for the AVR is going to boink the subs (as one) for each mic position and the sub filter is going to be created and uploaded to the AVR. My question is... is this filter going to have any correction in it? If it did, wouldn't this be a bad thing?

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post #16569 of 71753 Old 07-16-2009, 08:49 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by audyssey View Post

There are some good ideas here Doug. Something that we can look at as we update the software. The key is to keep it simple and avoid plugging and unplugging mics. But please keep in mind that this is not a huge issue. If the Sub Equalizer has done its job then the MultEQ XT filter in the AVR will have very little to do.

Very true Chris; however, totally different mic positions are going to be used to calibrate each device. If we used the exact same mic positions I wouldn't be asking these questions.

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post #16570 of 71753 Old 07-16-2009, 08:49 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by counsil View Post

Chris,

The post before this deals mostly with "usuability" of the software (Audyssey MultEQ Pro), therefore I really don't care about how your team designed it to "get things done".

Sorry... I have no idea what this means.

Quote:


However, above pepar mentions that the Audyssey MultEQ Pro calibration for the AVR is going to boink the subs (as one) for each mic position and the sub filter is going to be created and uploaded to the AVR. My question is... is this filter going to have any correction in it? If it did, wouldn't this be a bad thing?

If the Sub Equalizer did its job then the filter in the AVR will have nothing to do.

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post #16571 of 71753 Old 07-16-2009, 08:51 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by counsil View Post

Very true Chris; however, totally different mic positions are going to be used to calibrate each device. If we used the exact same mic positions I wouldn't be asking these questions.

MultEQ isn't just calibrating for the mic positions. It is using the data from the measurements to make assessments of what the problems are in the listening area. Think of it as spatial sampling. If all we did was fix the 6-8 tiny points then this wouldn't be much of a room correction method, would it?

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post #16572 of 71753 Old 07-16-2009, 08:54 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by audyssey View Post

MultEQ isn't just calibrating for the mic positions. It is using the data from the measurements to make assessments of what the problems are in the listening area. Think of it as spatial sampling. If all we did was fix the 6-8 tiny points then this wouldn't be much of a room correction method, would it?

I am sure you have done your homework. I will leave you alone now

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post #16573 of 71753 Old 07-16-2009, 08:55 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by peachy-b View Post

i have to set my volume to around 40 or 50 and when i get to the 71 (max volume). can't i increase the main FR so the volume is louder? would that destroy the set-up using the mic?

you can increase the trims manually if you like. The reason for the settings is to give you reference volume with the master volume at 63 (that's what I believe Onkyo uses). If you raise the trims then reference volume will be lower.

Quote:


my sub is firing perdendicular to where i sit. is that why it's giving me a distance of 14'? how can i change that the set-up so it goes down to closer to 0? i turned the volume down behind my sub and ran it again but it didn't do a thing.... still -10 and 14'.

The reason for the sub distance showing greater than the physical distance is because your sub has lowpass filters in it that add delay to the signal. MultEQ sees that and compensates so that the signal from your sub arrives at the same time as the signal from the other speakers.

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post #16574 of 71753 Old 07-16-2009, 10:22 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by audyssey View Post

you can increase the trims manually if you like. The reason for the settings is to give you reference volume with the master volume at 63 (that's what I believe Onkyo uses). If you raise the trims then reference volume will be lower.

"trims" as in the db right? just manually raise all the values up the same amount? say 2db?

Quote:
Originally Posted by audyssey View Post

The reason for the sub distance showing greater than the physical distance is because your sub has lowpass filters in it that add delay to the signal. MultEQ sees that and compensates so that the signal from your sub arrives at the same time as the signal from the other speakers.

but i've already turned that off. the knob controlling the lowpass doesn't even work anymore.... or do you mean the actual electronics, whether on or off, result in delays?
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post #16575 of 71753 Old 07-17-2009, 03:50 AM
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Originally Posted by JREwing View Post

Well shoot me. Yeah I knew the 1st position sets the distance, just trying to decide how big of a deal it is, or how big of an effect it will have on the overall sound field.

Personally I want my seat =pos1 =stereo center ="sweet spot". It's important and if it is practical to do so, try to achieve this. If not, it will still sound good, and better than without Audyssey.

Yes, I still like playing with Dalis.

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post #16576 of 71753 Old 07-17-2009, 09:35 AM
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Think Audyssey Sub Equalizer is exactly what I'm looking for. Few questions. Does it come with a calibration mic? where can I buy it?? Can't find this info on google.
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post #16577 of 71753 Old 07-17-2009, 10:17 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by audyssey View Post

There was so much wrong information going around in the last few pages that I lost track...

Let me define the terms:

Audyssey MultEQ Pro: This is the software that runs on the PC and lets installers calibrate all installer-ready enabled AVRs, the Audyssey Sound Equalizer, and the Audyssey Sub Equalizer

Audyssey Sound Equalizer: This is the stand-alone 8 channel processor that runs MultEQ XT and is intended for systems with a separate prepro and amp. It requires Audyssey MultEQ Pro software and the Audyssey Installer Kit (mic, preamp, stand) in order to calibrate

Audyssey Sub Equalizer: This is the stand-alone subwoofer processor that runs MultEQ XT for one or two subwoofers. It requires Audyssey MultEQ Pro software and the Audyssey Installer Kit (mic, preamp, stand) in order to calibrate

SVS AS-EQ1: This is the consumer version of the Audyssey Sub Equalizer. It does not require the Audyssey MultEQ Pro software nor the Audyssey installer kit. A microphone and consumer PC app come with it to perform the calibration

The difference between the Audyssey Sub Equalizer and the SVS AS-EQ1 is the market they are intended for. The Audyssey box is for the installer market and the SVS box is for the consumer market. The processing power is identical. The Audyssey box allows two zone configuration because installers requested that.

Integration with AVRs that have MultEQ XT
The SVS AS-EQ1 was designed to seamlessly integrate with the consumer version of MultEQ XT found in many AVRs today. The MultEQ XT mic is plugged into the AS-EQ1 to run the AVR calibration so that the subwoofer filters end up residing on the AS-EQ1.

The two key benefits of using the AS-EQ1 are:

(1) the subwoofer MultEQ XT filters have twice the resolution of the MultEQ XT filters possible in AVRs because of the added processing power

(2) proper integration of two subwoofers is now possible for any AVR

The Audyssey Sub Equalizer does not use the consumer mic and does not have a pass through feature for the pro mic. An installer with the Pro kit would first calibrate the Sub Equalizer and then calibrate the AVR through the Sub Equalizer.

Benefits of MultEQ Pro for AVRs
(1) Ability to manually tweak the target curve
(2) Save and Load measurements
(3) Pro mic that is individually calibrated to ±0.5 dB of $8k industry-standard measurement microphone
(4) Ability to take up to 32 measurements

NOTE: The resolution capability of the MultEQ XT filters produced by the MultEQ Pro software is limited by the processing power given to MultEQ XT in the product. So, in a receiver you will get the same resolving power whether you run MultEQ XT built-in or MultEQ Pro software. Of course, the benefits above still apply for MultEQ Pro.

Chris, would you elaborate a bit on the Audyssey Sound Equalizer in a similar way as you discussed the other products? Since you produce this hardware, can we assume it has the necessary processing power to equal the performance in sub response of the Audyssey Sub Equalizer and/or the SVS AS-EQ1, plus EQ of the rest of the frequencies at the 'pro' level?
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post #16578 of 71753 Old 07-17-2009, 10:25 AM
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I was looking at about a year old Home Entertainment mag, and there was a description of an unnamed movie star's custom and very high end 9 seat home theater setup.

One thing that they mentioned is that (supposedly) the best sub response everywhere in a theater is obtained by having 4 subs criss-crossing the room. Good if in the 4 corners, but best if on opposing walls. They didn't mention anything about what they used to EQ.

Chris, have you heard of, or do you have any thoughts on the criss-crossing subs and whether any of Audyssey's products would EQ this?
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post #16579 of 71753 Old 07-17-2009, 10:39 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Goatse View Post

Think Audyssey Sub Equalizer is exactly what I'm looking for. Few questions. Does it come with a calibration mic? where can I buy it?? Can't find this info on google.

http://www.audyssey.com/soundequalizer/index.html

See table at this link for mic answers:
http://www.audyssey.com/installers/index.html
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post #16580 of 71753 Old 07-17-2009, 11:05 AM
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Hi folks,

Audyssey EQ identified my L / R as Large with a 40hz x, and my center as small with 60hz x. This seems like this might introduce problems in bass reproduction. I adjusted this, for the time being to 60hz, and all small accorss the front -- but I think that would cause a loss of all LFE channel bass above a roll-off centered at 60hz.

(http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/volum...rs-9-2002.html, i.e. "In the majority of surround sound processors and receivers, FULL RANGE copies of all channels set to "Small" are combined together with the LFE channel, and the sum is low-passed. Think about that. Strictly speaking, any* such processor with a sub/sat crossover frequency set lower than 120 Hz is "discarding" the upper end of the LFE channel. THX units are NOT exempt from this. With the standard THX 80 Hz 4th order crossover, the top of the LFE channel gets chucked.").

I am curious why Audyssey would make the recommendations it did, and why I shouldn't just run with a THX-standard 80hz x for the front channels (and keep them set to small).

Thank you,

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post #16581 of 71753 Old 07-17-2009, 11:59 AM
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I guess the SVS SubEQ is what I need. Seems pretty steep at 700 dollars, hopefully the improvement is worth it. Least they have a money back guarantee.
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post #16582 of 71753 Old 07-17-2009, 01:10 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kjgarrison View Post

I was looking at about a year old Home Entertainment mag, and there was a description of an unnamed movie star's custom and very high end 9 seat home theater setup.

One thing that they mentioned is that (supposedly) the best sub response everywhere in a theater is obtained by having 4 subs criss-crossing the room. Good if in the 4 corners, but best if on opposing walls. They didn't mention anything about what they used to EQ.

Chris, have you heard of, or do you have any thoughts on the criss-crossing subs and whether any of Audyssey's products would EQ this?

I'll chime in with this http://www.harman.com/wp/pdf/multsubs.pdf Harman White Paper by Todd Welti that is the most likely source for that approach. Exhaustively thorough! From what I can tell, the Audyssey SubEQ could be grouped with two subs on each sub input. Chris, you can probably provide more info.
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post #16583 of 71753 Old 07-17-2009, 02:34 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sage View Post

Audyssey EQ identified my L / R as Large with a 40hz x, and my center as small with 60hz x. This seems like this might introduce problems in bass reproduction. I adjusted this, for the time being to 60hz, and all small accorss the front -- but I think that would cause a loss of all LFE channel bass above a roll-off centered at 60hz.

You did not mention what receiver you are running (I'm assuming it's a Denon because they seem to be the only brand that still shows a xover freq. with a speaker set to "large"), but generally there is a SEPARATE setting for "LPF for LFE" so your concerns are for naught... just set the LFE LPF to 120Hz and call it a day.

your decision to reset speakers to "small" and raise the crossover was a good one. try it at both 60 and 80Hz and see which sounds better.


Quote:
Originally Posted by sage View Post

I am curious why Audyssey would make the recommendations it did

Audyssey does not set "small/large" nor does it set the crossovers, all it does is measure the speakers response in your room and report the -3dB point to the receiver. The receiver's internal logic then sets the crossover (probably at the next highest available point) and "small/large" (depending on if that -3dB point was above or below the internal cutoff, probably 40Hz in your case which is why the front l/r came back as "large").

That is why it is constantly recommended that, after running Audyssey, you reset all speakers to SMALL and also experiment with raising the crossovers to hand more bass content off to the higher-rez filters on the sub channel. The receiver is NOT necessarily going to pick the "optimal" crossover for your system, so just think of it as a starting point...

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post #16584 of 71753 Old 07-17-2009, 03:06 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kjgarrison View Post

Chris, would you elaborate a bit on the Audyssey Sound Equalizer in a similar way as you discussed the other products? Since you produce this hardware, can we assume it has the necessary processing power to equal the performance in sub response of the Audyssey Sub Equalizer and/or the SVS AS-EQ1, plus EQ of the rest of the frequencies at the 'pro' level?


Yes, that's right. The Sound Equalizer uses a dedicated DSP chip for MultEQ XT so the filters on it have twice the resolution of the MultEQ XT filters in AVR products. The dual sub processing in the Sub Equalizer is not yet available on the Sound Equalizer.

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post #16585 of 71753 Old 07-17-2009, 03:23 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sage View Post

Hi folks,

Audyssey EQ identified my L / R as Large with a 40hz x, and my center as small with 60hz x.

Large with any crossover is a contradiction as you cannot have both effective simultaneously.

Quote:


This seems like this might introduce problems in bass reproduction. I adjusted this, for the time being to 60hz, and all small accorss the front -- but I think that would cause a loss of all LFE channel bass above a roll-off centered at 60hz.

Nope. None of these settings apply to LFE, only to redirected main channel bass.

Quote:


(http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/volum...rs-9-2002.html, i.e. "In the majority of surround sound processors and receivers, FULL RANGE copies of all channels set to "Small" are combined together with the LFE channel, and the sum is low-passed. Think about that. Strictly speaking, any* such processor with a sub/sat crossover frequency set lower than 120 Hz is "discarding" the upper end of the LFE channel. THX units are NOT exempt from this. With the standard THX 80 Hz 4th order crossover, the top of the LFE channel gets chucked.").

Note the date! AFAIK, no modern AVR (and that applies to any with Audyssey) will have this unfortunate arrangement. Today, the crossover applies to channel bass and not to LFE (for which there is a separate setting in many AVRs).

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I am curious why Audyssey would make the recommendations it did,.....

Because that is what it measured in your setup in your room.

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.......and why I shouldn't just run with a THX-standard 80hz x for the front channels (and keep them set to small).

You could if you chose to do so.

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post #16586 of 71753 Old 07-17-2009, 03:24 PM
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Originally Posted by audyssey View Post

Yes, that's right. The Sound Equalizer uses a dedicated DSP chip for MultEQ XT so the filters on it have twice the resolution of the MultEQ XT filters in AVR products. The dual sub processing in the Sub Equalizer is not yet available on the Sound Equalizer.

Yet????

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post #16587 of 71753 Old 07-17-2009, 03:26 PM
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Originally Posted by Kal Rubinson View Post

Yet????

What can I say...I've been corrupted by the marketing guys

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post #16588 of 71753 Old 07-17-2009, 05:35 PM
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You did not mention what receiver you are running (I'm assuming it's a Denon because they seem to be the only brand that still shows a xover freq. with a speaker set to "large"), but generally there is a SEPARATE setting for "LPF for LFE" so your concerns are for naught... just set the LFE LPF to 120Hz and call it a day.

your decision to reset speakers to "small" and raise the crossover was a good one. try it at both 60 and 80Hz and see which sounds better.

Audyssey does not set "small/large" nor does it set the crossovers, all it does is measure the speakers response in your room and report the -3dB point to the receiver. The receiver's internal logic then sets the crossover (probably at the next highest available point) and "small/large" (depending on if that -3dB point was above or below the internal cutoff, probably 40Hz in your case which is why the front l/r came back as "large").

That is why it is constantly recommended that, after running Audyssey, you reset all speakers to SMALL and also experiment with raising the crossovers to hand more bass content off to the higher-rez filters on the sub channel. The receiver is NOT necessarily going to pick the "optimal" crossover for your system, so just think of it as a starting point...

Hi Batpig, thanks for the response.

The receiver is a Denon 2809. I saw an old discussion there about how to set the sub-output LFE LPF. I will look into that more, primarily just to make sure that it's set to 120hz.

I also thought it was very odd that it had a x-over freq. even though it had decided the L / R channels were large. I figured I just wasn't smart enough to figure out why. :=)

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post #16589 of 71753 Old 07-17-2009, 05:38 PM
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Originally Posted by Kal Rubinson View Post

Nope. None of these settings apply to LFE, only to redirected main channel bass.

Note the date! AFAIK, no modern AVR (and that applies to any with Audyssey) will have this unfortunate arrangement. Today, the crossover applies to channel bass and not to LFE (for which there is a separate setting in many AVRs).

Hi Kal,

Thank you for the response and clarifications. I did note that the article was a bit on the... mature side, but wasn't sure whether the LPF logic had fundamentally changed. Sometimes things like that stick around for a long time (think CUE), so it's good to hear that's not an issue anymore.

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post #16590 of 71753 Old 07-17-2009, 05:57 PM
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Originally Posted by audyssey View Post

Yes, that's right. The Sound Equalizer uses a dedicated DSP chip for MultEQ XT so the filters on it have twice the resolution of the MultEQ XT filters in AVR products. The dual sub processing in the Sub Equalizer is not yet available on the Sound Equalizer.

How about freeing up and giving all the sub resolution in the Sound Equalizer to all the other channels when a Sub Equalizer is in the mix? Now that would be awesome.

Then all those folks that want to run their 'capable' front/surround/surround back speakers full range can do so without feeling like they are missing out on all the resolution potential found in the sub channel.

Addition...

I know I have already mentioned this a couple of times, but this would be killer functionality with installer ready AVRs (like mine). I do realize the AVR manufacturers would have to get involved.

I would be willing to pay for the 'upgrade' on my Denon, just like I paid for the Dynamic EQ/Volume 'upgrade'.

Just something to think about... I don't know how big the market would ever be.

Never argue with an idiot; they drag you down to their level and beat you with experience.

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