"Official" Audyssey thread (FAQ in post #51779) - Page 559 - AVS Forum
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post #16741 of 71787 Old 07-24-2009, 03:09 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SoundofMind View Post

For those really hard to reach spots, a mic gooseneck might do the trick:
http://www.activemusician.com/item--MC.R20?nav=prod-ab
Many performers prefer these to rigid booms as they are so adjustable.

That will take care of the angle for sure, but I wonder about sitting the mic on top of a skinny gooseneck attached to a long boom attached to a long stand. I'm wondering if something more rigid should be figured out.
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post #16742 of 71787 Old 07-24-2009, 04:02 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kjgarrison View Post

That will take care of the angle for sure, but I wonder about sitting the mic on top of a skinny gooseneck attached to a long boom attached to a long stand. I'm wondering if something more rigid should be figured out.

Why should the rigidity of the boom matter?
What are you getting at?


Mike
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post #16743 of 71787 Old 07-24-2009, 04:06 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kjgarrison View Post

That will take care of the angle for sure, but I wonder about sitting the mic on top of a skinny gooseneck attached to a long boom attached to a long stand. I'm wondering if something more rigid should be figured out.

One often forgoes the boom when using a 20" gooseneck. Otherwise, with an adjustable boom, you slide it so the boom/gooseneck assembly is balanced over the stand. Are we overthinking this a bit?

Yes, I still like playing with Dalis.

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post #16744 of 71787 Old 07-24-2009, 04:11 PM
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[quote=audyssey;16880057]OSD = On-screen Display. If you go to the Denon Setup menu you will find something called Parameter Check. In it you can check various things including the Audyssey MultEQ filter settings for each channel. These are rather crude graphs, but will give us an idea if there is something strange going on with the filters for your center channel.

Here are the snap shots of the graphs for each speaker, not sure how to read these but let me know if anything looks out of place. Thanks!







Showing speakers and lay out, the graph of the L&R Mains, Center, and lastly the twp rears. The sub is at +3db.
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post #16745 of 71787 Old 07-24-2009, 04:15 PM
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RE: Audyssey graph pic 3

What is the significance of non-symmetrical graphs (L/R symmetry)?
EG - Audyssey graph pic #3 above

I have also noted that in my room, which while not perfectly symmetrical is close to it when room treatments are taken into account.
(That is, the double door that creates the assymetry on a side wall has absorption panels on it).

Mike
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post #16746 of 71787 Old 07-24-2009, 04:20 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike_WI View Post

RE: Audyssey graph pic 3

What is the significance of non-symmetrical graphs (L/R symmetry)?
EG - Audyssey graph pic #3 above

I have also noted that in my room, which while not perfectly symmetrical is close to it when room treatments are taken into account.
(That is, the double door that creates the assymetry on a side wall has absorption panels on it).

Mike


--I have no room treatments, just some floor rug because we have wooden floors, its an old German House built in 1912, but the size of the room make watching movies fun, plus in Germany we have Rolladens (Metal blinds that roll) so darkness is instant even during the daytime, wish we had these in the States. -Anyhow I also did notice that the graph #3, the graphs look different. Both speakers same height, nothing blocking them, good locations I guess but they are mounted flush to the wall. They were built this way from Canton.
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post #16747 of 71787 Old 07-24-2009, 04:22 PM
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is it really surprising that the graphs are non-symmetrical? would you expect the acoustics to be precisely identical in two different positions?

I think it would be much more remarkable if the graphs were identical.

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post #16748 of 71787 Old 07-24-2009, 04:36 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by batpig View Post

is it really surprising that the graphs are non-symmetrical? would you expect the acoustics to be precisely identical in two different positions?

I think it would be much more remarkable if the graphs were identical.

I guess it depends if the mic positions were all symmetrically placed.
But if the room, speakers, mics, and any room treatments or furniture is symmetrical, then I would expect the response/adjustment to by L/R-symmetrical.
But I guess that is a lot of IF's that have to all line up.

Mike
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post #16749 of 71787 Old 07-24-2009, 04:40 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by batpig View Post

is it really surprising that the graphs are non-symmetrical? would you expect the acoustics to be precisely identical in two different positions?

I think it would be much more remarkable if the graphs were identical.

Given the resolution of the graph displays, I think they look pretty darn good.

I would be willing to bet that you would see more variation in the frequency response of your ears.

I have never understood why poeple show these graphs and ask if they look Ok to everyone. How do things SOUND to you? That's what this whole business is all about.
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post #16750 of 71787 Old 07-24-2009, 04:48 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike_WI View Post

I guess it depends if the mic positions were all symmetrically placed.
But if the room, speakers, mics, and any room treatments or furniture is symmetrical, then I would expect the response/adjustment to by L/R-symmetrical.
But I guess that is a lot of IF's that have to all line up.

Mike

Add in the fact that the basic frequency response of the speakers would have to be identical. What are the chances of that being true?

Heck, the response in my room probably changes more when my two 80+ lb Golden Retrievers wander in and out of the room than anything else.
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post #16751 of 71787 Old 07-24-2009, 05:22 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kreativeimages View Post

Here are the snap shots of the graphs for each speaker, not sure how to read these but let me know if anything looks out of place. Thanks!

Hi, the front L and R look pretty normal but the C speaker does not! Remember, these graphs are showing the correction that the MultEQ filters are trying to do.

If you look at your center speaker filter you will notice that there is a lot of cutting (negative gains) above 2 kHz or so. That will definitely contribute to "muffled" sound in a big way especially since it is over such a large range. But, the low frequency looks odd as well. Normally, one would expect to see a roll off, but we see a boost.

So, I have a couple of theories:

1) the placement near the floor and in the cabinet is severely impacting the low end and adding boominess that will muffle the sound

2) you have a damaged driver (possibly one of the two woofers) and the filter is trying to compensate for it by cutting the highs to "flatten" the response.

You can check the latter by playing low frequency content and gently touching each of the two drivers to see if they are in fact moving.

Chris

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post #16752 of 71787 Old 07-24-2009, 05:31 PM
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I ran Audyssey in my 3808 again today and then took some manual measurements with my RS SPL meter. At reference my internal pink noise is reading ~72db for the three front channels, ~74db for the rears, and ~75db for the sub. Is this normal? Should I leave it that way? I went ahead and adjusted the levels manually to get to 75db for all channels. Can I do that, without having a negative impact on the overall calibration?

And, what is the "best" method to use for manual channel level adjustments? Internal AVR pink noise, or Avia.

Thanks.
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post #16753 of 71787 Old 07-24-2009, 06:21 PM
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Quote:


Showing speakers and lay out, the graph of the L&R Mains, Center, and lastly the twp rears. The sub is at +3db.

My humble $.02 worth. The left/right graphs are admirably similar. I share Chris' thoughts about the center. I'm not surprised given the photo of where it lives. The proximity of the above and below shelves will definately make their "contribution" to the sound. The nearby reflective surfaces will have some first reflection effects. And the proximity of the floor will cause any speaker to start to "couple" with the floor (boundary effect). The first reflection off the floor will also be detrimental. Do you have any information on the dispersion characteristics of that center? Many horizontal woofer/tweeter/woofer configurations lobe considerably. The challenge for MultEQxt is significant for the center. If you can improve the acoustic environment of the center, and the speaker is not sick as Chris mentioned, you will see a significant improvement after reaccomplishing the Audyssey calibration. Just my humble opinion.
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post #16754 of 71787 Old 07-24-2009, 07:09 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BRAC View Post

I ran Audyssey in my 3808 again today and then took some manual measurements with my RS SPL meter. At reference my internal pink noise is reading ~72db for the three front channels, ~74db for the rears, and ~75db for the sub. Is this normal? Should I leave it that way? I went ahead and adjusted the levels manually to get to 75db for all channels. Can I do that, without having a negative impact on the overall calibration?

And, what is the "best" method to use for manual channel level adjustments? Internal AVR pink noise, or Avia.

Thanks.

You should use the internal test noise of the receiver. It's OK to manually change the levels.

Chris

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post #16755 of 71787 Old 07-24-2009, 07:16 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cam Man View Post

The proximity of the above and below shelves will definately make their "contribution" to the sound. The nearby reflective surfaces will have some first reflection effects. And the proximity of the floor will cause any speaker to start to "couple" with the floor (boundary effect). The first reflection off the floor will also be detrimental. Do you have any information on the dispersion characteristics of that center? Many horizontal woofer/tweeter/woofer configurations lobe considerably. The challenge for MultEQxt is significant for the center. If you can improve the acoustic environment of the center, and the speaker is not sick as Chris mentioned, you will see a significant improvement after reaccomplishing the Audyssey calibration. Just my humble opinion.

I agree with your advice, and just wanted to mention that the infamous C speaker lobing problem is in the horizontal axis, while the sound along the vertical axis is probably very smooth (before it hits the floor that is ).
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post #16756 of 71787 Old 07-24-2009, 11:35 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by audyssey View Post

You should use the internal test noise of the receiver. It's OK to manually change the levels.

Great! Thanks Chris. I'm sure it has been talked about like a million times in this thread already, but due to how loooooooong this thread has grown, I can't seem to find quick answers.
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post #16757 of 71787 Old 07-25-2009, 07:47 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Roger Dressler View Post

I agree with your advice, and just wanted to mention that the infamous C speaker lobing problem is in the horizontal axis, while the sound along the vertical axis is probably very smooth (before it hits the floor that is ).

That's exactly right. Thanks for adding that.
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post #16758 of 71787 Old 07-25-2009, 09:58 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BRAC View Post

Great! Thanks Chris. I'm sure it has been talked about like a million times in this thread already, but due to how loooooooong this thread has grown, I can't seem to find quick answers.

BRAC, have you read the Audyssey Setup Guide linked, among other places, in my sig? It is extremely broad and deep and is updated/edited as needed to clarify and/or expand it.
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post #16759 of 71787 Old 07-25-2009, 11:27 AM
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HELP!

I bought Ascend speakers an SVS sub and a Denon 790 receiver. I was trying to run Audyssey and ran into issues.

I plugged in the mic and the setup screen automatically comes up like it is suppose to... but when I start audyssey it fails to find the first speaker. It comes back with an error saying something like there is either no microphone or no speaker attached. The speaker played sound fine so I guess the microphone that came with my receiver is broken.

I hooked the mic up to my laptop and turned its volume up all the way. I tried to record some sound from it through the standard windows sound recorder and... nothing. I assume this mic can be used in this way... so this really does tell me that its broken.

I manual set it up.. but I'm no expert. It sounds GREAT but I would still like to use audyssey.

I looked at Denon's site trying to find how much it would cost me just to order another one, but I couldn't find the mic on their site. Where do I need to go to get a new one?

Thanks!
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post #16760 of 71787 Old 07-25-2009, 11:31 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Soulhunter View Post

HELP!

I bought Ascend speakers an SVS sub and a Denon 790 receiver. I was trying to run Audyssey and ran into issues.

I plugged in the mic and the setup screen automatically comes up like it is suppose to... but when I start audyssey it fails to find the first speaker. It comes back with an error saying something like there is either no microphone or no speaker attached. The speaker played sound fine so I guess the microphone that came with my receiver is broken.

I hooked the mic up to my laptop and turned its volume up all the way. I tried to record some sound from it through the standard windows sound recorder and... nothing. I assume this mic can be used in this way... so this really does tell me that its broken.

I manual set it up.. but I'm no expert. It sounds GREAT but I would still like to use audyssey.

I looked at Denon's site trying to find how much it would cost me just to order another one, but I couldn't find the mic on their site. Where do I need to go to get a new one?

Where did you buy the Denon? If it is new, that would be where I would go for a FREE exchange.
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post #16761 of 71787 Old 07-25-2009, 11:59 AM
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Do the speakers have built-in powered amps?
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post #16762 of 71787 Old 07-25-2009, 12:16 PM
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Originally Posted by Gary J View Post

Do the speakers have built-in powered amps?

and they are not waking up in time? whadya thinkin?
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post #16763 of 71787 Old 07-25-2009, 12:25 PM
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Yep think it happened to me once a long time ago.
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post #16764 of 71787 Old 07-25-2009, 12:54 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gary J View Post

Do the speakers have built-in powered amps?

Quote:
Originally Posted by pepar View Post

and they are not waking up in time? whadya thinkin?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gary J View Post

Yep think it happened to me once a long time ago.

I would say "no."

http://www.ascendacoustics.com/pages.../spkrlist.html
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post #16765 of 71787 Old 07-25-2009, 01:03 PM
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Originally Posted by bluesky636 View Post

I would say "no."

http://www.ascendacoustics.com/pages.../spkrlist.html

Then we are back to the mic....
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post #16766 of 71787 Old 07-25-2009, 01:06 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pepar View Post

Where did you buy the Denon? If it is new, that would be where I would go for a FREE exchange.

I bought it from amazon.com... but I REALLY do not want to send the whole thing back just for a microphone replacement.
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post #16767 of 71787 Old 07-25-2009, 01:27 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Soulhunter View Post

I bought it from amazon.com... but I REALLY do not want to send the whole thing back just for a microphone replacement.

I would unless they agree to replace the mic.

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post #16768 of 71787 Old 07-25-2009, 02:03 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Soulhunter View Post

I bought it from amazon.com... but I REALLY do not want to send the whole thing back just for a microphone replacement.

It is covered under the warranty and they should ship it to you without boxing up the AVR. They are also available on ebay, this one for $25:
http://cgi.ebay.com/Denon-DM-A409-Se...3A1%7C294%3A50

Yes, I still like playing with Dalis.

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Well I took the measurements today with my bass test tones. I've got about a 10dB drop from 25Hz down to 20Hz and it's flat below that. That is real disappointing. The rest of it is ok, nothing great.

Of course this is from an RS SPL meter in one position so I know the results are suspect, but still that drop down low bothers me. I've got tons of headroom. There is absolutely no reason I can see to cut the bass down low like that.

I followed up with tests from two other positions. I was surprised at the variance. All three show that same roll off down low though.

I'm really debating about getting the AS-EQ1, but I'd like to know why I'm losing the low end. That just doesn't make sense. I'd like to think that spreading the subs out my change some things and give the AS-EQ1 more to work with. But isn't it still going to cut off my low end? I really wish you could tweak those results. It bugs me that there's no solutions to tweaking the curve to suit your tastes. I realize that there's the timing and everything else that's being taken into consideration, but is it really so hard to say "give me an extra 3dB from 20Hz on down"?

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post #16770 of 71787 Old 07-25-2009, 05:22 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Keith Mickunas View Post

Well I took the measurements today with my bass test tones. I've got about a 10dB drop from 25Hz down to 20Hz and it's flat below that. That is real disappointing. The rest of it is ok, nothing great.

Of course this is from an RS SPL meter in one position so I know the results are suspect, but still that drop down low bothers me. I've got tons of headroom. There is absolutely no reason I can see to cut the bass down low like that.

I followed up with tests from two other positions. I was surprised at the variance. All three show that same roll off down low though.

As per Mr. Audyssey

Quote:
Originally Posted by audyssey View Post

As we have discussed many times on the thread the two worse things to do for measurements are (i) use the RS SPL meter and (ii) measure in only one position.

The SPL meter is... an SPL meter and should not be used for frequency response measurements. To get a more accurate view of what MultEQ is doing to the sub response you will need a real microphone and multiple measurements that are averaged.

Chris

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