"Official" Audyssey thread (FAQ in post #51779) - Page 568 - AVS Forum
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post #17011 of 72099 Old 08-01-2009, 02:57 PM
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Originally Posted by audyssey View Post

We often use two of the tracks that have been used in many listening experiments in the literature: James Taylor, "That's why I'm here" and Tracy Chapman, "Fast Car".

Hey Chris,

Can you articulate what one is listening for that one would not hear in a poorly calibrated system or one with bad sub? I know that my ported sub isn't going to be the most musical, but it does sound very "clean" to me.

Thanks again.
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post #17012 of 72099 Old 08-01-2009, 03:37 PM
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Originally Posted by toddRiffic View Post

Hey Chris,

Can you articulate what one is listening for that one would not hear in a poorly calibrated system or one with bad sub? I know that my ported sub isn't going to be the most musical, but it does sound very "clean" to me.

Thanks again.

In the James Taylor song listen to the part when the bass comes in, right after he says: "He said me and Melissa...". In a system with boomy bass that part will be overbearing and you won't be able to distinguish the individual bass notes. In the Tracy Chapman song, there is a 40 Hz or so note that is repeated. It's softer so you have to have a flat bass response in order to hear it right. This is also a great way to demo Dynamic EQ. Turn the volume down to -20 or -30 and then turn Dynamic EQ on and off. You will be surprised at what you are missing when it's off.

Chris

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post #17013 of 72099 Old 08-01-2009, 03:47 PM
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Years ago I did some FR tests on various modes. Logic 7 had the greatest effect on bass response and DPL2 the least with DTS Neo in between.
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post #17014 of 72099 Old 08-01-2009, 03:59 PM
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Originally Posted by Roger Dressler View Post

While PLII and PLIIx have no filters in the front channels, there can be an effect on bass levels, in that uncorrelated bass is being duplicated to the center channel. This bass is then added electrically with the L/R bass in the bass management process. How strongly it adds is hard to say since the levels vary with degree of correlation. The easiest way to determine the effect is to change the Center Width control to full phantom (L/R) position, thus removing the C signal from the equation. Then compare that bass or overall spectrum against your normal C width setting. It's best to look at the entire spectrum as there may also be differences in level at mid-high frequencies depending on center speaker level calibration or EQ, which can influence the perception of spectral balance.


When the Dimension control is moved toward the rear, the L-R component of the source is emphasized. Since bass is usually more correlated than not, this has the effect of reducing bass (and center vocals) relative to the other signals. As the control is moved forward, the source is being blended toward mono. These Dimension control alterations are performed before the audio actually reaches the PLII decoder core.

Yes, those are exactly the effects one experiences. FWIW, I usually listen to DPLIIX Music with "Width" set one notch wider, and "Dimension" set one notch toward the rear compared to the default settings. I also leave "Panorama" set to "On." In my room, I find these settings help to lessen the increase in bass one experiences with music when Dynamic EQ is turned on.
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post #17015 of 72099 Old 08-01-2009, 04:02 PM
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Originally Posted by sivadselim View Post

I think what you are hearing is a result of the redirection of a portion of the audio to other speaker channels, not because the processing enhances the bass.

I din't say that the bass is "enhanced," only that there is an "impact." Whether one considers that impact to be an enhancement or a detriment is subjective.
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post #17016 of 72099 Old 08-01-2009, 04:30 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by audyssey View Post

PLII has nothing to with boosting the sub response.

Your data doesn't look at all like what we measure with a spectrum analyzer or with impulse response methods. I have no doubt that adding a big parametric band cut at 35 Hz will do what you show. It probably means that one of your room dimensions is close to 16-17'. But, the question is what is cut doing to the time domain characteristics of the big room mode that is happening at that frequency? Answer: nothing. It's impossible to effect the ring down time of a room mode with a frequency domain filter such as the parametric band you are applying.

I continue to assert that measuring a room with sine tones is not giving you an accurate picture of what is really going on. How stable are the meter measurements when you look at them? Normally an SPL meter bounces around and you have to "interpolate" in your head to pick a number to write down. Is this happening? If so, it's very hard to put any weight on this data...

Thanks for the response! Right you are about the room dimensions. While it isn't quite a perfect cube (the ceiling height varies and it is open to other rooms) it is about 17' in each dimension on average; hence the 30/60Hz-ish peaks. To answer your other question...the SPL meter readings are quite stable - they generally hold to one value, though about 10% of the time the reading bounces between two values and but rarely does it bounces between three. Note that my meter reads out in integers only (it does not show any resolution below +/- 1/2dB).

So if this data is not very useful, what can I as a consumer measure to help prove my ears wrong or right (because I could swear that I am hearing these peaks more without the PEQ)?

Thanks!
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post #17017 of 72099 Old 08-01-2009, 04:36 PM
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Originally Posted by bluesky636 View Post

DPLII/DPLIIX MUSIC mode DOES impact the bass response.

Music mode (and Music mode only) allows you to alter both the front soundstage width and depth. In changing the soundstage DEPTH, I have noticed an audible change in bass response.

MOVIE mode does not impact the front channels at all and has no audible impact on bass that I can hear.

I do agree that the bass response effect between sound modes is probably only due to how each one varies the signal outputs to each speaker. With 80Hz x-overs this should not have much impact on the frequency range that is of most concern to a sub's response (though it could if you have an 80Hz room resonance). Nevertheless I still doubt that the sound mode chosen has an effect on the LFE output, but anything's possible so I intend to use my SPL meter and sine waves to compare DPLII Music vs. 7-channel stereo. Will report back...though it might be a day or two.
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post #17018 of 72099 Old 08-01-2009, 04:37 PM
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Originally Posted by bluesky636 View Post

I din't say that the bass is "enhanced," only that there is an "impact." Whether one considers that impact to be an enhancement or a detriment is subjective.

Enhanced, increased, whatever. My point was simply that the different bass level is a result of info being redirected to other channels or in other ways. It's an indirect effect that occurs upon reproduction at the speakers and sub(s). An implicit bass increase is not part of the processing.

"All men are frauds. The only difference between them is that some admit it. I myself deny it."
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post #17019 of 72099 Old 08-01-2009, 04:53 PM
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Since the audyssey guys seem to frequent the forums, I'd like to make a few suggestions for future versions.

For multeq, I'd like to see the setup procedure get a little better. I've been having a hell of a time setting it up because of planes flying over, so whenever one does during setup, I cancel that measurement - but this forces me to start all 6 speakers all over again, which is almost exactly the amount of time it takes for another plane to fly over or the neighbors dog to start barking. To be able to cancel and then retry each speaker instead of each measurement would be preferable.

And although I frequently hear that unless the speaker repeats with louder tones, that background noise isnt an issue, it's hard for me to accept that - especially the subwoofer. It calibrates the SW channel to 0db, so I know I've got it set to a good level from the start, but the bumps coming from it are so faint compared to the uncontrollable background noise that I just cant accept that its loud enough. Im perfectly ok with blasting it much louder than the default volume of tones, in order to raise the SNR. This should be considered as an option.

My main gripes are with dynamic EQ though - MultEQ gives 3 modes of operation, but with DEQ, its all or nothing. For my purposes (primarily a console gamer), dynamic EQ simply doesnt work.

As I understand it, the surround boost was based on having audio engineers come in rather than measured sound curves - that might work for some movies, but it works for virtually no games, where surround channels are not just ambience. There needs to be an option to disable or reduce the surround boost while keeping the tonal equalization intact. This is the aspect of DEQ that makes it entirely a dealbreaker and completely unusable. Perhaps a slight boost would work, but I've yet to ever find a situation where the several db boost applied was desireable.

As far as the volume based equalization goes, it seems to work better in theory than it does in practice. Essentially, like the surround mix, it's just way overdone. The bass gets jacked up to unreasonable levels, and gets overly boomy and rumbly. I'd appreciate this aspect if I could control the degree to which it was applied - one size doesnt always fit all.

And regarding dynamic volume, I'd love for there to be an option to reduce the amount of LFE/bass, particularly in midnight mode. This is an issue especially for use apartment dwellers - when it comes to us, not all frequencies are considered equal. Neither my neighbors downstairs or my girlfriend trying to sleep appreciate the low frequencies, *particularly* at midnight. Right now I've had to come up with a compromise solution of permanently raising the crossovers to 100hz and physically turning off the sub at night to cut the bass out and keep the complaints to a minimum - if midnight mode is seriously going to live up to it's name, it should have some form of optional bass control. Especially since it requires the use of DEQ, which as it stands jacks up the bass rather than reduce it. This would be a killer feature IMO.

I'd be curious if when the next version of multEQ/DynEQ comes down the line, is there any chance of a software upgrade rather than having to buy a new receiver. This has been done in the past, IIRC?

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post #17020 of 72099 Old 08-01-2009, 05:10 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cam Man View Post

Maybe so with this excerpt, but it is difficult to determine if that is related to the bullet at the bottom of the Dolby TrueHD page http://www.dolby.com/professional/ce...by-truehd.html says "Includes dynamic range control, enabling reduced peak volume levels without loss of overall sound quality." It sure sounds like they are talking about Dynamic Range Compression to me. What do you think?

That does sound like it, but a search on Dolby's site for "late night" returns no hits for it in the first page. David Letterman came up, Dolby Late Night did not. Perhaps they're walking away from it?
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post #17021 of 72099 Old 08-01-2009, 05:17 PM
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Originally Posted by bd2003 View Post

Since the audyssey guys seem to frequent the forums, I'd like to make a few suggestions for future versions.

For multeq, I'd like to see the setup procedure get a little better. I've been having a hell of a time setting it up because of planes flying over, so whenever one does during setup, I cancel that measurement - but this forces me to start all 6 speakers all over again, which is almost exactly the amount of time it takes for another plane to fly over or the neighbors dog to start barking. To be able to cancel and then retry each speaker instead of each measurement would be preferable.

And although I frequently hear that unless the speaker repeats with louder tones, that background noise isnt an issue, it's hard for me to accept that - especially the subwoofer. It calibrates the SW channel to 0db, so I know I've got it set to a good level from the start, but the bumps coming from it are so faint compared to the uncontrollable background noise that I just cant accept that its loud enough. Im perfectly ok with blasting it much louder than the default volume of tones, in order to raise the SNR. This should be considered as an option.

My main gripes are with dynamic EQ though - MultEQ gives 3 modes of operation, but with DEQ, its all or nothing. For my purposes (primarily a console gamer), dynamic EQ simply doesnt work.

As I understand it, the surround boost was based on having audio engineers come in rather than measured sound curves - that might work for some movies, but it works for virtually no games, where surround channels are not just ambience. There needs to be an option to disable or reduce the surround boost while keeping the tonal equalization intact. This is the aspect of DEQ that makes it entirely a dealbreaker and completely unusable. Perhaps a slight boost would work, but I've yet to ever find a situation where the several db boost applied was desireable.

As far as the volume based equalization goes, it seems to work better in theory than it does in practice. Essentially, like the surround mix, it's just way overdone. The bass gets jacked up to unreasonable levels, and gets overly boomy and rumbly. I'd appreciate this aspect if I could control the degree to which it was applied - one size doesnt always fit all.

And regarding dynamic volume, I'd love for there to be an option to reduce the amount of LFE/bass, particularly in midnight mode. This is an issue especially for use apartment dwellers - when it comes to us, not all frequencies are considered equal. Neither my neighbors downstairs or my girlfriend trying to sleep appreciate the low frequencies, *particularly* at midnight. Right now I've had to come up with a compromise solution of permanently raising the crossovers to 100hz and physically turning off the sub at night to cut the bass out and keep the complaints to a minimum - if midnight mode is seriously going to live up to it's name, it should have some form of optional bass control. Especially since it requires the use of DEQ, which as it stands jacks up the bass rather than reduce it. This would be a killer feature IMO.

I'd be curious if when the next version of multEQ/DynEQ comes down the line, is there any chance of a software upgrade rather than having to buy a new receiver. This has been done in the past, IIRC?

You must be new here as all of your points have been discussed ad nauseum. You are saying nothing new. Do a search on each of your "suggestions" and you will find ways to work around and even eliminate your major complaints.
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post #17022 of 72099 Old 08-01-2009, 06:14 PM
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Originally Posted by pepar View Post

That does sound like it, but a search on Dolby's site for "late night" returns no hits for it in the first page. David Letterman came up, Dolby Late Night did not. Perhaps they're walking away from it?

Dolby does not call the DRC function "Late Night." That was coined by the product makers.
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post #17023 of 72099 Old 08-01-2009, 07:32 PM
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Originally Posted by Roger Dressler View Post

Dolby does not call the DRC function "Late Night." That was coined by the product makers.

Correct. It is just a name.

My Onkyo TX-SR706 calls it "Late Night Mode," while my 10-year old Marantz calls it "Midnight Mode."
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post #17024 of 72099 Old 08-01-2009, 07:36 PM
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hi, my distances were all ok for all 5.1 speakers, until i decided to move the sub below the side coffee table that is in a corner between two sofas, see pic, sub is facing towards the front.

Audyssey is reporting 2ft instead of 5.2ft (using 3 measurements). Reading this thread seems to indicate that either something is wrong or to dis-regard the sub distance ? (i had absolute silence, no fan hum, HVAC or fridge, ...)
So which is right ?

When i placed it in Pos3, between the 2 sofas, facing the Mic, the distance was ok.

I have a Denon 3808CI, SVS SB12+.

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post #17025 of 72099 Old 08-01-2009, 08:15 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Roger Dressler View Post

Dolby does not call the DRC function "Late Night." That was coined by the product makers.

Thanks. You wouldn't happen to know anything about certain TrueHD BDs defaulting DRC on necessitating users to manually turn the mode off, would you?
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post #17026 of 72099 Old 08-01-2009, 08:31 PM
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Originally Posted by bluesky636 View Post

You must be new here as all of your points have been discussed ad nauseum. You are saying nothing new. Do a search on each of your "suggestions" and you will find ways to work around and even eliminate your major complaints.

Did I hurt someone by my post? Not sure why the condescending attitude.

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post #17027 of 72099 Old 08-01-2009, 09:59 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bd2003 View Post

Since the audyssey guys seem to frequent the forums, I'd like to make a few suggestions for future versions.

For multeq, I'd like to see the setup procedure get a little better. I've been having a hell of a time setting it up because of planes flying over, so whenever one does during setup, I cancel that measurement - but this forces me to start all 6 speakers all over again, which is almost exactly the amount of time it takes for another plane to fly over or the neighbors dog to start barking. To be able to cancel and then retry each speaker instead of each measurement would be preferable.

I truly felt your pain today, I'm 6 miles south of Seatac airport inline with the runways and I swear it has been one GD plane after another. Must be Karma, I build them.

You could measure 5 positions at once with a SMS-1 and MIC-5 that run $1550 retail, but I'm sticking with my Denon 1909 that I paid $650 for.



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Originally Posted by bd2003 View Post

And although I frequently hear that unless the speaker repeats with louder tones, that background noise isnt an issue, it's hard for me to accept that - especially the subwoofer. It calibrates the SW channel to 0db, so I know I've got it set to a good level from the start, but the bumps coming from it are so faint compared to the uncontrollable background noise that I just cant accept that its loud enough. Im perfectly ok with blasting it much louder than the default volume of tones, in order to raise the SNR. This should be considered as an option.

You do have that option, turn your sub's gain to 3 o'clock and the bumps/sweeps will come through nice and loud if you want.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bd2003 View Post

My main gripes are with dynamic EQ though - MultEQ gives 3 modes of operation, but with DEQ, its all or nothing. For my purposes (primarily a console gamer), dynamic EQ simply doesnt work.


Quote:
Originally Posted by bd2003 View Post

As I understand it, the surround boost was based on having audio engineers come in rather than measured sound curves - that might work for some movies, but it works for virtually no games, where surround channels are not just ambience. There needs to be an option to disable or reduce the surround boost while keeping the tonal equalization intact. This is the aspect of DEQ that makes it entirely a dealbreaker and completely unusable. Perhaps a slight boost would work, but I've yet to ever find a situation where the several db boost applied was desireable.

My 360 and Wii are underused, I never had noticed DEQ & DVOL ruining the sound for me. Maybe you have the option of turning down the surround a bit the inputs your game system uses?


Quote:
Originally Posted by bd2003 View Post

As far as the volume based equalization goes, it seems to work better in theory than it does in practice. Essentially, like the surround mix, it's just way overdone. The bass gets jacked up to unreasonable levels, and gets overly boomy and rumbly. I'd appreciate this aspect if I could control the degree to which it was applied - one size doesnt always fit all.

I just turn the sub level down on my receiver to suit my taste.


Quote:
Originally Posted by bd2003 View Post

And regarding dynamic volume, I'd love for there to be an option to reduce the amount of LFE/bass, particularly in midnight mode. This is an issue especially for use apartment dwellers - when it comes to us, not all frequencies are considered equal. Neither my neighbors downstairs or my girlfriend trying to sleep appreciate the low frequencies, *particularly* at midnight. Right now I've had to come up with a compromise solution of permanently raising the crossovers to 100hz and physically turning off the sub at night to cut the bass out and keep the complaints to a minimum - if midnight mode is seriously going to live up to it's name, it should have some form of optional bass control. Especially since it requires the use of DEQ, which as it stands jacks up the bass rather than reduce it. This would be a killer feature IMO.

I also feel the pain of the apartment dweller, again I just turn the sub level down. One thing you may want to consider is SubDude, it's a isolation mat to sit your sub on, I've had people tell me that it helps decouple the sub from the floor, resulting in less bass being transmitted to your neighbors.

I'm not the expert around here, just trying to help. I'm sure that this stuff has been discussed ad nausea because the steep learning curve of these concepts and the enormous thread size causes so many issues to be rehashed because no newcomer has the time to give the thread a thorough read.

Good Luck
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post #17028 of 72099 Old 08-01-2009, 10:26 PM
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Originally Posted by toddRiffic View Post

I truly felt your pain today, I'm 6 miles south of Seatac airport inline with the runways and I swear it has been one GD plane after another. Must be Karma, I build them.

Yeah, living next to JFK doesnt really help. :P

Quote:


You do have that option, turn your sub's gain to 3 o'clock and the bumps/sweeps will come through nice and loud if you want.

Wouldnt that throw off the measurements? I've always understood that you want the sub level to measure out as close to 0db as possible.

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My 360 and Wii are underused, I never had noticed DEQ & DVOL ruining the sound for me. Maybe you have the option of turning down the surround a bit the inputs your game system uses?

I just turn the sub level down on my receiver to suit my taste.

I've tried that for a time, but the whole dynamic part of DEQ throws a wrench into it - if I lower the surrounds to match the fronts at a certain volume level, it wont match at another. Its particularly a problem in FPS games - gunshots from behind are MUCH louder than those up front when DEQ is on. Same issue with the bass.

In the end, it seems to make more sense to me not to use it at all rather than start fiddling with the settings that were painstakingly calibrated.

Quote:


I also feel the pain of the apartment dweller, again I just turn the sub level down. One thing you may want to consider is SubDude, it's a isolation mat to sit your sub on, I've had people tell me that it helps decouple the sub from the floor, resulting in less bass being transmitted to your neighbors.

I actually have one, and it helps quite a bit in terms of transmitting vibrations, especially from the really low end, but the sound waves are leaking through no matter what.

Turning off the sub works for me now, but I'm hoping for a more elegant solution in the future, particularly one that doesnt require getting off my ass.

Quote:


I'm not the expert around here, just trying to help. I'm sure that this stuff has been discussed ad nausea because the steep learning curve of these concepts and the enormous thread size causes so many issues to be rehashed because no newcomer has the time to give the thread a thorough read.

Well, I wasnt really searching for a solution in the first place, since what I really need doesnt seem to exist yet. It's not the first time I've posted here either, I just thought I'd throw my two cents in on what I'd like to see next, while I went through the agonizingly long calibration process.

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post #17029 of 72099 Old 08-01-2009, 10:54 PM
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Originally Posted by pepar View Post

Thanks. You wouldn't happen to know anything about certain TrueHD BDs defaulting DRC on necessitating users to manually turn the mode off, would you?

I only know what FilmMixer reported--that Iron Man was set incorrectly, so it was redone to fix it.
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post #17030 of 72099 Old 08-01-2009, 10:57 PM
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I'm pondering with it is worthwhile moving to a prepro with Audyssey Dynamic EQ, given I seldom listen at reference levels.

I use the Behringer DCX2496 as a crossover for my 3 way actives, and it has a dynamic EQ feature. Obviously it would not be as sophisticated as the Audyssey iteration, but it might give me a taste of what to expect.

Anyone tried this, or have a suggestion for what curve to program in?
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post #17031 of 72099 Old 08-02-2009, 12:19 AM
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Originally Posted by bd2003 View Post

Did I hurt someone by my post? Not sure why the condescending attitude.

Letting you know that there are known fixes to your issues is condenscending? I'm very sorry.
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post #17032 of 72099 Old 08-02-2009, 04:47 AM
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Originally Posted by bd2003 View Post

Did I hurt someone by my post? Not sure why the condescending attitude.

That just comes naturally with him. Here is an excellent starting point for this thread.
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post #17033 of 72099 Old 08-02-2009, 09:32 AM
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That just comes naturally with him.

You've been an excellent teacher.
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post #17034 of 72099 Old 08-02-2009, 09:38 AM
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Originally Posted by sivadselim View Post

Enhanced, increased, whatever. My point was simply that the different bass level is a result of info being redirected to other channels or in other ways. It's an indirect effect that occurs upon reproduction at the speakers and sub(s). An implicit bass increase is not part of the processing.

Hmm...there may be more to this than we think. Armed with my SPL meter and 1/8th octave test tones I compared the 30 to 100Hz response of DPLIIx Music (-14dB system volume, and Center Width and Dimension set at 4) vs.:
  • Neo:6 Music (0.6 Center Image) - In order to get same overal system volume I had to increase the master volume to -10dB. Thereafter the shape of my bass response curve was no different than that for DPLIIx Music.
  • 7 Channel Stereo - In order to get the same overall system volume I had to decrease the master volume to -15db. BUT the shape of the bass response was quite different - about +2dB from 90 to 100Hz, then pancake flat down to 35Hz where it jumped +2dB at 30Hz. In another words my slowly increasing house curve (to +5dB @ 30Hz) was gone and the upper bass was inflated a bit.
Interesting, though I still say this is academic since I don't intend to listen to music in anything but DPLIIx Music (it just sounds better to me). More importantly, when I turn off my PEQ (I know this is the controversial part) the 30/60Hz-ish peaks in my system return (to varying degrees) regardless of the mode.
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post #17035 of 72099 Old 08-02-2009, 09:44 AM
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Originally Posted by Roger Dressler View Post

I only know what FilmMixer reported--that Iron Man was set incorrectly, so it was redone to fix it.

Thank you, Roger.
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post #17036 of 72099 Old 08-02-2009, 10:07 AM
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So, BD2003, what your hearing is, as you'll see as you roll around in this thread, the natural consequence of the fact that your games are not "mixed" or "mastered" at a coommon constant reference level, like movies. This means that dynamic EQ, which ahs to compare the signal to something in order to determine how to "correct" it for lower volume, is automatically comparing it to a much louder signal than your game makers had in mind... and therefore applying greater corrections than sound right to you. You can adjust your input level to reduce the amount of correction by dynamic EQ, or you can turn it off. You might try making the adjustment just to see if you prefer the sound when it is corrected more correctly.
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post #17037 of 72099 Old 08-02-2009, 11:04 AM
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Originally Posted by bd2003 View Post

My main gripes are with dynamic EQ though - MultEQ gives 3 modes of operation, but with DEQ, its all or nothing.

Hi,

Did you mean to say Dynamic Volume gives 3 modes of operation?

Larry
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post #17038 of 72099 Old 08-02-2009, 11:10 AM
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Originally Posted by LarryChanin View Post

Hi,

Did you mean to say Dynamic Volume gives 3 modes of operation?

Larry

Lots of imprecise terminology makes determining the problem much more difficult.
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post #17039 of 72099 Old 08-02-2009, 11:43 AM
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Originally Posted by pepar View Post

Lots of imprecise terminology makes determining the problem much more difficult.

Hi Jeff,

Assuming bd's main gripe is with Dynamic EQ, Chris has mentioned a few times that adding a degree of adjustability to DEQ is being incorporated into new devices.

Larry
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post #17040 of 72099 Old 08-02-2009, 11:58 AM
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Originally Posted by LarryChanin View Post

Hi Jeff,

Assuming bd's main gripe is with Dynamic EQ, Chris has mentioned a few times that adding a degree of adjustability to DEQ is being incorporated into new devices.

Larry

As well as being able to adjust input level trim on many exisiting AVRs and pre-pros.
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