"Official" Audyssey thread (FAQ in post #51779) - Page 580 - AVS Forum
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post #17371 of 71773 Old 08-11-2009, 01:40 PM
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Originally Posted by MACCA350 View Post

Dynamic EQ is not intended to be used with Redbook CD. It's intended for use with movie content.

While Dynamic EQ may be INTENDED to work with movie content, it can and does work quite well with Redbook CD as long as the input trim level of the AVR is dropped by about 10 db (from Reference 0 db to -10 db). This has been discussed here quite a bit as a work around for using Dynamic EQ with non-movie content. In fact, some of the new Denon AVRs include a selectable setting for Dynamic EQ that accomplishes the same thing.

I was a long time user of THX Loudness Plus over Dynamic EQ until I experimented with the input trim. Now I use Dynamic EQ all the time for movies (input trim = 0 db), tv (input trim = -6 db) and music (input trim = -10 db). Works great.
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post #17372 of 71773 Old 08-11-2009, 02:08 PM
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I received the AIX Blu-Ray "Audio Calibration Disc" from Oppo today. What I discovered was that in playing any of their subwoofer tests in 96KHZ format (DTS MA, Dolby True HD and LPCM ) there was no sound at all (16KHZ to 160HZ ) from the sub unless I disabled Audyssey using the control on the NAD T785 receiver. I double checked by using a meter. 48khz sources are fine. I checked the Oppo setup and the NAD. Note that my Audyessy setup is in Audyessy Pro as done by my dealer.

Crossover is at 60HZ, I tried raising to 120HZ to no avail.

Anybody run into this ?

Bill
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post #17373 of 71773 Old 08-11-2009, 02:09 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bluesky636 View Post

While Dynamic EQ may be INTENDED to work with movie content, it can and does work quite well with Redbook CD as long as the input trim level of the AVR is dropped by about 10 db (from Reference 0 db to -10 db). This has been discussed here quite a bit as a work around for using Dynamic EQ with non-movie content. In fact, some of the new Denon AVRs include a selectable setting for Dynamic EQ that accomplishes the same thing.

I was a long time user of THX Loudness Plus over Dynamic EQ until I experimented with the input trim. Now I use Dynamic EQ all the time for movies (input trim = 0 db), tv (input trim = -6 db) and music (input trim = -10 db). Works great.

Thanks.

I have a Denon 5308CI.
Where in the menu would I make that change?

Mike
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post #17374 of 71773 Old 08-11-2009, 02:29 PM
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Originally Posted by Mike_WI View Post

I have a Denon 5308CI.
Where in the menu would I make that change? Mike

If it's similar to the 2809, Menu->input setup->source level, just check your OM.

I found that with proper sub and mic placement DynEQ works well for all reasonable sources in my HT without need for such trims. Most music (sans rap) and even much TV is fine. For occasional offensively boomy content it is easily switched off.

Yes, I still like playing with Dalis.

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post #17375 of 71773 Old 08-11-2009, 02:30 PM
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I have a Denon AVR 3808ci running an Orb Audio 5.1 speaker system and my Audyssey setup has it sounding very nicely balanced for all my sources (phono, CDs, Cablebox/DVR, BluRay, et. al.) than it does for my PC which I running the video HDMI into a Mits 57" DLP.
I'm using a Creative Sound Blaster X-Fi Xtreme Audio soundcard for my PC audio - which I am running analog into the Aux inputs. The music on my PC is in almost every file format you can think of (at least most of the lossy ones are hi-bitrate)- plus I use the PC for NetFlix.
I was wondering if there was any way to download (or record?) the Audyssey test tones in order to calibrate & balance the output of my PC?
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post #17376 of 71773 Old 08-11-2009, 02:37 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bsandiego View Post

I received the AIX Blu-Ray "Audio Calibration Disc" from Oppo today. What I discovered was that in playing any of their subwoofer tests in 96KHZ format (DTS MA, Dolby True HD and LPCM ) there was no sound at all (16KHZ to 160HZ ) from the sub unless I disabled Audyssey using the control on the NAD T785 receiver. I double checked by using a meter. 48khz sources are fine. I checked the Oppo setup and the NAD. Note that my Audyessy setup is in Audyessy Pro as done by my dealer.

Crossover is at 60HZ, I tried raising to 120HZ to no avail.

Anybody run into this ?

Bill

It sounds like it is doing exactly what it should be doing. Unless you are crossing over your speakers at 160Hz, there is no reason there should be anything coming out of your sub. LFE information is 130Hz (120?) and below, and even then you typically have to set it there (most default to around 80Hz). A sub isn't meant to be run that high. What the sweep is doing is giving you an idea of when your sub is actually starting to contribute to the sound in the room.

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post #17377 of 71773 Old 08-11-2009, 02:51 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bsandiego View Post

I received the AIX Blu-Ray "Audio Calibration Disc" from Oppo today. What I discovered was that in playing any of their subwoofer tests in 96KHZ format (DTS MA, Dolby True HD and LPCM ) there was no sound at all (16KHZ to 160HZ ) from the sub unless I disabled Audyssey using the control on the NAD T785 receiver. I double checked by using a meter. 48khz sources are fine. I checked the Oppo setup and the NAD. Note that my Audyessy setup is in Audyessy Pro as done by my dealer.

Crossover is at 60HZ, I tried raising to 120HZ to no avail.

Anybody run into this ?

Bill

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kris Deering View Post

It sounds like it is doing exactly what it should be doing. Unless you are crossing over your speakers at 160Hz, there is no reason there should be anything coming out of your sub. LFE information is 130Hz (120?) and below, and even then you typically have to set it there (most default to around 80Hz). A sub isn't meant to be run that high. What the sweep is doing is giving you an idea of when your sub is actually starting to contribute to the sound in the room.

Hi Kris,

Bill mentioned that he does have subwoofer output when using a lower sampling rate of 48 kHz, its just when he uses 96 kHz signals that he experiences this problem.

Other preamps turn off Audyssey processing at higher sampling rates with the advanced codecs when they run out of DSP processing power. Could this be a similar situation?

Larry
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post #17378 of 71773 Old 08-11-2009, 03:10 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kris Deering View Post

It sounds like it is doing exactly what it should be doing. Unless you are crossing over your speakers at 160Hz, there is no reason there should be anything coming out of your sub. LFE information is 130Hz (120?) and below, and even then you typically have to set it there (most default to around 80Hz). A sub isn't meant to be run that high. What the sweep is doing is giving you an idea of when your sub is actually starting to contribute to the sound in the room.

The OP said he was using the SUBWOOFER tests. That suggests there should have been SUBWOOFER output.
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post #17379 of 71773 Old 08-11-2009, 03:26 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bsandiego View Post

I received the AIX Blu-Ray "Audio Calibration Disc" from Oppo today. What I discovered was that in playing any of their subwoofer tests in 96KHZ format (DTS MA, Dolby True HD and LPCM ) there was no sound at all (16KHZ to 160HZ ) from the sub unless I disabled Audyssey using the control on the NAD T785 receiver. I double checked by using a meter. 48khz sources are fine. I checked the Oppo setup and the NAD. Note that my Audyessy setup is in Audyessy Pro as done by my dealer.

Crossover is at 60HZ, I tried raising to 120HZ to no avail.

Anybody run into this ?

Bill

Quote:
Originally Posted by pepar View Post

The OP said he was using the SUBWOOFER tests. That suggests there should have been SUBWOOFER output.

Hi Jeff,

Maybe some of the confusion stems from the fact that Bill indicated that the test signals were from 16KHZ to 160HZ. He probably meant 16 Hz to 160 Hz.

Larry
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post #17380 of 71773 Old 08-11-2009, 04:20 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike_WI View Post

Thanks.

I have a Denon 5308CI.
Where in the menu would I make that change?

Mike

Listen to SoundofMind. My AVR is an Onkyo TX-SR706.
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post #17381 of 71773 Old 08-11-2009, 04:29 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by liewbob@optonlin View Post

I have a Denon AVR 3808ci running an Orb Audio 5.1 speaker system and my Audyssey setup has it sounding very nicely balanced for all my sources (phono, CDs, Cablebox/DVR, BluRay, et. al.) than it does for my PC which I running the video HDMI into a Mits 57" DLP.
I'm using a Creative Sound Blaster X-Fi Xtreme Audio soundcard for my PC audio - which I am running analog into the Aux inputs. The music on my PC is in almost every file format you can think of (at least most of the lossy ones are hi-bitrate)- plus I use the PC for NetFlix.
I was wondering if there was any way to download (or record?) the Audyssey test tones in order to calibrate & balance the output of my PC?

Audyssey balances the speakers and applies correction to the ROOM response, not the source.

If you are feeding the Aux inputs of the Denon with the output from your sound card, as long as the Denon digitizes the Aux inputs, you are getting the benefit of Audyssey room correction. There is nothing else for you to do.
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post #17382 of 71773 Old 08-11-2009, 04:40 PM
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I think he may be confusingly using the term "Audyssey" and conflating the various technologies, which is a common "noob" mistake.

My guess is he might be talking about getting the source level at the right volume (relative to his other sources), and he would like to get the volume output correct so it will work right with Dynamic EQ.... thus he wants some sort of test tone to be able to match output level.

That's just my guess though to be honest I'm not exactly sure what the problem is!

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post #17383 of 71773 Old 08-11-2009, 04:50 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LarryChanin View Post

Hi Jeff,

Maybe some of the confusion stems from the fact that Bill indicated that the test signals were from 16KHZ to 160HZ. He probably meant 16 Hz to 160 Hz.

Larry

Yes, I read "subwoofer" and then read "16Hz to 160Hz."
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post #17384 of 71773 Old 08-11-2009, 04:51 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by batpig View Post

I think he may be confusingly using the term "Audyssey" and conflating the various technologies, which is a common "noob" mistake.

My guess is he might be talking about getting the source level at the right volume (relative to his other sources), and he would like to get the volume output correct so it will work right with Dynamic EQ.... thus he wants some sort of test tone to be able to match output level.

That's just my guess though to be honest I'm not exactly sure what the problem is!

I'm not sure either. He can't do what he wants to do in any case.
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post #17385 of 71773 Old 08-11-2009, 05:16 PM
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Thanks for alll the help. I meant 16 HZ to 120HZ but the point is I am finding out that at 96KHZ sampling the Audyessy does not function properly. Oppo said they had heard this ( complaint ) before but it does not directly relate to their player. Down rezzing the output only effects the coax\\optical; not the higher capability HDMI.

Steophile had in an article about higher rates of sampling on blu-ray that said Audyessy had this problem as the Audyessy software also runs at 96KHZ.

It would be interesting for others of you to look particularly the subwoofer performance when playing 96KHZ material ( like some Dolby True HD ) with Audyessy enabled.

I would like to hear from someone at Audyessy-Thanks.

Bill
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post #17386 of 71773 Old 08-11-2009, 05:33 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bsandiego View Post

Thanks for alll the help. I meant 16 HZ to 120HZ but the point is I am finding out that at 96KHZ sampling the Audyessy does not function properly. Oppo said they had heard this ( complaint ) before but it does not directly relate to their player. Down rezzing the output only effects the coax\\optical; not the higher capability HDMI.

Steophile had in an article about higher rates of sampling on blu-ray that said Audyessy had this problem as the Audyessy software also runs at 96KHZ.

It would be interesting for others of you to look particularly the subwoofer performance when playing 96KHZ material ( like some Dolby True HD ) with Audyessy enabled.

I would like to hear from someone at Audyessy-Thanks.

Bill

Its not an Audyssey limitation, it is an AVR limitation.

It is a known issue that some AVRs cannot process high sampling rate lossless codecs AND Audyssey simultaneously due to limited DSP power in the AVRs. Your NAD would appear to be one of those as are many Marantz AVRs. My Onkyo TX-SR706 does not have this problem nor do most/all Denons.

It would seem to me that the solution to this problem would be to allow the BD player to decode the lossless codec and send it to the AVR as 48 Khz multichannel PCM over HDMI. You still get all the benefits of lossless codecs while being able to utilize Audyssey.
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post #17387 of 71773 Old 08-11-2009, 05:36 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bsandiego View Post

Steophile had in an article about higher rates of sampling on blu-ray that said Audyessy had this problem as the Audyessy software also runs at 96KHZ.

That is not correct. There is no such limitation in Audyssey but it, like every other process that has to be accomplished, takes up processing cycles in the DSP. Depending on how much processing power a particular device has, at some point it runs out of capacity and has to decide which process to turn off. Some devices will run Audyssey at 96kHz, some will not, some will be able to do it along with decoding HD formats and some will not. Clearly, some have more DSP capacity than others. Which process is dropped is a decision made by the designer/programmer.

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post #17388 of 71773 Old 08-11-2009, 05:41 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bluesky636 View Post

Audyssey balances the speakers and applies correction to the ROOM response, not the source.

If you are feeding the Aux inputs of the Denon with the output from your sound card, as long as the Denon digitizes the Aux inputs, you are getting the benefit of Audyssey room correction. There is nothing else for you to do.

Thanks -but as I understand it, while Audyssey's prime function is to balance for room acoustics - I don't see how it can help but also be compensating for the speakers' frequency responses - and, therefore, given the amount of processing the soundcard is doing to provide six seperate signals for 5.1 sound (including x-over) - I was thinking that the source frequency responses might be nowhere near as flat as my other sources (even RIAA eq's phono). Make sense?
Also, with the PC as the input, the 3808 does not give me any options on the surround mode but defaults to stereo - I don't get whether this means it is digitizing the analog surround signals from the PC into stereo and then reprocessing to 5.1 or if it is just sending the analog signals to the corresponding speakers - but all 6 speakers are putting out decent levels - just not quite as smoothe a balance as through other sources.
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post #17389 of 71773 Old 08-11-2009, 06:09 PM
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Just today I was listening and viewing Siegfried in BluRay DTS-HD MA (Siegfried is an opera by Wagner in case you were wondering) and at a certain point one of the singers goes really loud, I heard a small distortion in the center channel. I went back to the same passage and turned EQ off and voila...problem was gone.
I've noticed that this has been happening quite frequently when there is a rapid loud/high sound at the center channel. The AVR is the Denon 5308 and the center Martin Logan Cinema.
Anyone offers a good explanation?
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post #17390 of 71773 Old 08-11-2009, 06:16 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LarryChanin View Post

  • The green line, which represents the Audyssey filters, should be close to the inverse of the blue line, except here the green line represents the composite filters for all measurements fuzzy logic adjusted, whereas the blue line is the response at a single location.

  • The fact that the green line doesn't go horizontal until around 10 Hz suggests that Audyssey calculated the lower -3 dB roll-off in that very low range.

  • The fact that the green line crosses the reference red line at 60 Hz is result of normalization. Normalization adjusts the filter level up or down to set the area between the green and red lines above 60 Hz to the upper limit, equal to the area between the green and red lines below 60 Hz to the lower limit.

  • Prior to normalization the left-most portion of the green line sat on top of the red reference line.

  • Since the entire frequency spectrum per channel is not considered when normalizing the levels, the before and after Audyssey average SPL levels will not measure precisely equal, but nevertheless they will sound about the same level.

Thanks.

Larry


Hi Larry,

I agree with all of your observations above. It's a good way to explain the graphs.

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post #17391 of 71773 Old 08-11-2009, 06:26 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bsandiego View Post

Steophile had in an article about higher rates of sampling on blu-ray that said Audyessy had this problem as the Audyessy software also runs at 96KHZ.

Completely untrue. The "Audyssey software" runs at any sample rate that the manufacturer decides to use. There are products that use Audyssey at 96 kHz and, I believe, 2-ch 192 kHz (). The algorithms are completely agnostic to the incoming sampling rate, but of course require more resources to compute when the sampling rate goes up. These resources come in the from of additional DSP chips that the manufacturer has to put in the product, thus driving up the cost. Every manufacturer has their own internal process to decide what models in their line will include multiple chips and how much of the DSP processing power is allocated to each digital process.

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post #17392 of 71773 Old 08-11-2009, 07:17 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by liewbob@optonlin View Post

Thanks -but as I understand it, while Audyssey's prime function is to balance for room acoustics - I don't see how it can help but also be compensating for the speakers' frequency responses - and, therefore, given the amount of processing the soundcard is doing to provide six seperate signals for 5.1 sound (including x-over) - I was thinking that the source frequency responses might be nowhere near as flat as my other sources (even RIAA eq's phono). Make sense?
Also, with the PC as the input, the 3808 does not give me any options on the surround mode but defaults to stereo - I don't get whether this means it is digitizing the analog surround signals from the PC into stereo and then reprocessing to 5.1 or if it is just sending the analog signals to the corresponding speakers - but all 6 speakers are putting out decent levels - just not quite as smoothe a balance as through other sources.

Perhaps I wasn't clear. When I said Audyssey corrects room response, that means it corrects the speaker frequency response as seen by the listener in the room.

I have no idea what you are trying to say in the rest of your post. As I said before, Audyssey does nothing to correct the source response.

If your sound card is capable of outputting 5.1 discrete channels, why are you downmixing to stereo? Your receiver is taking the stereo input and it sounds like you are then using DPL II or something similar to create 5.1 channels from the 2 channel input.
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post #17393 of 71773 Old 08-11-2009, 08:13 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bluesky636 View Post

Perhaps I wasn't clear. When I said Audyssey corrects room response, that means it corrects the speaker frequency response as seen by the listener in the room.

I have no idea what you are trying to say in the rest of your post. As I said before, Audyssey does nothing to correct the source response.

If your sound card is capable of outputting 5.1 discrete channels, why are you downmixing to stereo? Your receiver is taking the stereo input and it sounds like you are then using DPL II or something similar to create 5.1 channels from the 2 channel input.

I'll try to be clearer:
My original concept was that if the analog signal from the PC is not flat frequency response &/or is not balanced (front/rear or x-over & sub level) as my other sources - then Audyssey could compensate for the source - although I guess it would have to be able to remember more than 1 configuration if I didn't want to recalibrate every time I switched to PC as a source. But that was why I was hoping I could download a file that would generate the Audyssey warbles tones from my PC
But I think the whole conversation may be moot because I just noticed that in the Audio Parameters for PC - it does not even show Audyssey as an option -as it does for other sources.
I don't believe I am actually downmixing to stereo - but thiis seems to be the default reading on surround for the combination of Audio "Ext. In" & video HDMI. Nor does it seem to affect the sound whether I set the decode mode to Auto, PCM or DTS. I do get appropriate output from all 6 speakers when I run the soundcard test.
Perhaps this discussion really belonged in the Denon 3808 thread all along.
Thanks again for your insight.
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post #17394 of 71773 Old 08-11-2009, 09:37 PM
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Chris,

Thanks for clarification-my mistake. I will contact NAD about their upgrade modules to see if that will do the trick. Interestingly the Audyssey light ( red for Pro ) stays on at 96KHZ inputs. I wonder if any processing is taking place?

Thanks again
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post #17395 of 71773 Old 08-11-2009, 10:09 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JonFo View Post

Congrats. And since you have large dipoles, please make sure to read the special addendum on Audyssey setup and measurements for large dipole speakers I put together over on the MartinLogan club.

This applies to Soundlabs, Innersound/Sanders, Magnepan and other large dipole line-sources.

It explains why you got the phase error reading and what to do about it, namely, use a tighter measurement boundary.

http://www.martinloganowners.com/~td...ead.php?t=9401

Interesting read. I have large full range dipoles too, although mine use dynamic drivers. Would most of your points still apply (other the line source elements)?
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post #17396 of 71773 Old 08-11-2009, 11:17 PM
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I have a question about Audyssey DSX. I think I understand the front height channels and what type of speaker would be suitable for their application. However, if using the front wide channels instead what type of speaker would be best? Another set of matching towers? Bookshelf speakers on mounts or stands that are of equal height to the existing towers?

I will soon be a proud new owner of a Denon 4310ci and would like a little guidance in this regard. I plan on doing plenty of experimenting, but a good starting point would make the process more efficient and fun.

Thanks!
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post #17397 of 71773 Old 08-12-2009, 07:24 AM
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Originally Posted by -dase- View Post

I have a question about Audyssey DSX. I think I understand the front height channels and what type of speaker would be suitable for their application. However, if using the front wide channels instead what type of speaker would be best? Another set of matching towers? Bookshelf speakers on mounts or stands that are of equal height to the existing towers?

The recommendation for the type of Wide and Height speakers to use is no different for DSX than it is for 5.1 surround: the more similar the speakers the better the soundstage. The reason for this is that matching the timbre that we receive at each ear greatly improves our perception of stereo imaging. Of course, there are practical limitations on the speaker size particularly when adding more speakers in a home listening room. So, a good place to start would be with speakers from the same "family" as your front three. Running MultEQ first will also help bring the response of each speaker closer to the others (and the desired target). Placement for the wides and heights is shown here:
http://www.audyssey.com/technology/dsx.html
The Heights should be placed as high as possible in the room, while the Wides should ideally have their tweeters at ear height just like the three front speakers.

Chris

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post #17398 of 71773 Old 08-12-2009, 12:03 PM
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But I think the whole conversation may be moot because I just noticed that in the Audio Parameters for PC - it does not even show Audyssey as an option -as it does for other sources.
I don't believe I am actually downmixing to stereo - but thiis seems to be the default reading on surround for the combination of Audio "Ext. In"


bluesky -- we figured out the problem on the 3808CI thread. He is feeding the audio from his soundcard via multichannel analog inputs (e.g. "EXT IN" on the Denon) which of course are not digitized, and thus do not get Audyssey or any other digital processing.

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post #17399 of 71773 Old 08-12-2009, 02:48 PM
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Originally Posted by batpig View Post

bluesky -- we figured out the problem on the 3808CI thread. He is feeding the audio from his soundcard via multichannel analog inputs (e.g. "EXT IN" on the Denon) which of course are not digitized, and thus do not get Audyssey or any other digital processing.

Doh!
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post #17400 of 71773 Old 08-12-2009, 03:57 PM
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Originally Posted by batpig View Post

bluesky -- we figured out the problem on the 3808CI thread. He is feeding the audio from his soundcard via multichannel analog inputs (e.g. "EXT IN" on the Denon) which of course are not digitized, and thus do not get Audyssey or any other digital processing.

Good because his posts were making my head hurt!
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