"Official" Audyssey thread (FAQ in post #51779) - Page 583 - AVS Forum
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post #17461 of 71921 Old 08-16-2009, 07:33 AM
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I am certainly no expert, and I don't know what the output ratings are for these two units are. If they are being set for reference at 0 and one has more power, than it will hit reference at a lower volume level. Does that seem credible?

Ron
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post #17462 of 71921 Old 08-16-2009, 07:48 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Flageborg View Post

Wide & Height - so far

If I am interpreting your picture correctly the Wide speaker is right next to the Left speaker. That is not enough separation to achieve what is needed. Remember, the Wide speakers should be close to 60° from center while the fronts are at 30°. Of course this is all in an ideal world. But still, if you could move the wides further down the wall it would work better. The delays will be taken care of by MultEQ.

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post #17463 of 71921 Old 08-16-2009, 07:52 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tingham View Post

Thanks for the reply. Yes, it is a lot softer with the master volume set to the same level. I too didn't understand why this would be. My 1st thought was that it had something to do with MultiEQ XT and that's why I posted the question here, hoping you might be able to shed a little light on it.

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Originally Posted by volcanoron View Post

I am certainly no expert, and I don't know what the output ratings are for these two units are. If they are being set for reference at 0 and one has more power, than it will hit reference at a lower volume level. Does that seem credible?

If the amp had a higher electrical gain then the trims would come out lower. But the level calibration would be adjusting to that. In other words, with the trims set as they are you would get 75 dB SPL at the listening position with the master volume set to 0 (using the internal AVR -30 dBFS test noise). Tingham have you tried measuring SPL with a meter?

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post #17464 of 71921 Old 08-16-2009, 08:35 AM
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No, I have not, but I can do that. Thanks, I will post back with my results.

Go Phillies! Go Eagles! Go Sixers! Go Flyers!
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post #17465 of 71921 Old 08-16-2009, 08:43 AM
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When I installed a new Onkyo 806 for my daughter, I fund that the microphone had changed form the ones for the Onkyo 885 and the 805. Is this new microphone better can can it be used for the older Onkyo models for better audyssey results.

Joel
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post #17466 of 71921 Old 08-16-2009, 08:54 AM
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Originally Posted by jmschnur View Post

When I installed a new Onkyo 806 for my daughter, I fund that the microphone had changed form the ones for the Onkyo 885 and the 805. Is this new microphone better can can it be used for the older Onkyo models for better audyssey results.

Joel

Hi Joel,

The new mic is made by Audyssey and it does, indeed, perform better at high frequencies because of the extended neck. However, it can not be used with older models that came with the other mic because the internal mic calibration curves in each AVR are completely different.

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post #17467 of 71921 Old 08-16-2009, 12:38 PM
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Hi Guys,

I recently setup my new Onkyo 607 and Energy Take Classic and ran Audyssey to set everything up. I am an Audyssey newb so forgive my ignorance. After running the setup I am having some major distortion from the sub, mostly in certain scenes like the opening hellicopter scene in Transformers and some in the Dark Knight. I realize both those movies have crazy bass but is there anything I can do to resolve this or do I just need a more powerful sub? Audyssey made the following changes:

Front, Center and Surround 70hz -4 to -5db
Subwoofer 120hz -3db (I also changed it to 100hz and still had distortion)

I have the sub LPF set at 110-120hz and phase at 0. The volume is at half.

Any help appreciated.
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post #17468 of 71921 Old 08-16-2009, 01:08 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jp_tech View Post

Hi Guys,

I recently setup my new Onkyo 607 and Energy Take Classic and ran Audyssey to set everything up. I am an Audyssey newb so forgive my ignorance. After running the setup I am having some major distortion from the sub, mostly in certain scenes like the opening hellicopter scene in Transformers and some in the Dark Knight. I realize both those movies have crazy bass but is there anything I can do to resolve this or do I just need a more powerful sub? Audyssey made the following changes:

Front, Center and Surround 70hz -4 to -5db
Subwoofer 120hz -3db (I also changed it to 100hz and still had distortion)

I have the sub LPF set at 110-120hz and phase at 0. The volume is at half.

Any help appreciated.

Hi, the Onkyo 607 has the very basic version of MultEQ called 2EQ and it does not apply any Audyssey room correction filter to the subwoofer. So, what you are hearing is most likely due to the inability of the sub to play high levels of very low bass. The movies you mention are notorious for full digital scale bass content in the LFE channel.

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post #17469 of 71921 Old 08-16-2009, 01:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jp_tech View Post

Hi Guys,

I recently setup my new Onkyo 607 and Energy Take Classic and ran Audyssey to set everything up. I am an Audyssey newb so forgive my ignorance. After running the setup I am having some major distortion from the sub, mostly in certain scenes like the opening hellicopter scene in Transformers and some in the Dark Knight. I realize both those movies have crazy bass but is there anything I can do to resolve this or do I just need a more powerful sub? Audyssey made the following changes:

Front, Center and Surround 70hz -4 to -5db
Subwoofer 120hz -3db (I also changed it to 100hz and still had distortion)

I have the sub LPF set at 110-120hz and phase at 0. The volume is at half.

Any help appreciated.

The 607 only has Audyssey 2EQ which I believe does not create room correction filters for the LFE channel, and only sets the level. Hopefully others will have suggestions for a work around on this.
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post #17470 of 71921 Old 08-16-2009, 01:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jp_tech View Post

Hi Guys,

I recently setup my new Onkyo 607 and Energy Take Classic and ran Audyssey to set everything up. I am an Audyssey newb so forgive my ignorance. After running the setup I am having some major distortion from the sub, mostly in certain scenes like the opening hellicopter scene in Transformers and some in the Dark Knight. I realize both those movies have crazy bass but is there anything I can do to resolve this or do I just need a more powerful sub?

Quote:
Originally Posted by bluesky636 View Post

The 607 only has Audyssey 2EQ which I believe does not create room correction filters for the LFE channel, and only sets the level. Hopefully others will have suggestions for a work around on this.

Yes, the workaround is a more powerful sub.
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post #17471 of 71921 Old 08-16-2009, 01:29 PM
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Originally Posted by pepar View Post

Yes, the workaround is a more powerful sub.

Or lower listening levels...

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post #17472 of 71921 Old 08-16-2009, 01:45 PM
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Thanks guys. I figured I would probably need a more powerful sub.

Two other quick questions.
1. I noticed after running the setup the bass from the sub seems to be mainly directed to my main couch where I placed the mic and I barely notice it on my side couch which is slightly to the right of that postion. Anything I can do to correct that?

2. Should I increase those crossover frequencies that were set to 70hz for the Take Classics?

Thanks again.
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post #17473 of 71921 Old 08-16-2009, 01:53 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jp_tech View Post

Thanks guys. I figured I would probably need a more powerful sub.

Two other quick questions.
1. I noticed after running the setup the bass from the sub seems to be mainly directed to my main couch where I placed the mic and I barely notice it on my side couch which is slightly to the right of that postion. Anything I can do to correct that.

2. Should I increase those crossover frequencies that were set to 70hz for the Take Classics?

Thanks again.

Hi,

The Audyssey 2EQ setup in the receiver you have doesn't do any processing to the sub signal whatsoever. It simply sets the level of the sub in the receiver so that it matches the other speakers. Also, keep in mind that "directing" of bass is not possible because the wavelengths involved are so long that the sub is basically an omnidirectional source. What you are hearing is the physical effect of standing waves. The dimensions of your room determine the locations in the room where you will have very big peaks and dips in the level of bass.

More advanced versions of Audyssey (i.e. MultEQ and MultEQ XT) create correction filters to try and smooth out the bass response. But, the basic 2EQ version that you have doesn't do that because there is not enough available computing power in the DSP chip in that receiver. So, you will hear the same bass whether you have Audyssey 2EQ on or off.

70 Hz seems like a reasonable choice for your speakers, particularly if they are close to the wall.

Chris

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post #17474 of 71921 Old 08-16-2009, 01:57 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pepar View Post


1. Have you cannibalized any of your surround speakers and re-tasked them for these channels, or are you still running side and rear surrounds?

2. Your "wides" do not look to have much angular displacement from your L & R speakers; have you noticed much of a "widening' of the front soundstage?

1. No, but as the future is floorstanding rear surrounds(the original one) I have a couple of these nice Swans F2.2F behind me - powered by Doxa



2. It's wide enough - and sound experience?.....HOLY ****** ***** **** !!!
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post #17475 of 71921 Old 08-16-2009, 01:59 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by audyssey View Post

Hi,

The Audyssey 2EQ setup in the receiver you have doesn't do any processing to the sub signal whatsoever. It simply sets the level of the sub in the receiver so that it matches the other speakers. Also, keep in mind that "directing" of bass is not possible because the wavelengths involved are so long that the sub is basically an omnidirectional source. What you are hearing is the physical effect of standing waves. The dimensions of your room determine the locations in the room where you will have very big peaks and dips in the level of bass.

More advanced versions of Audyssey (i.e. MultEQ and MultEQ XT) create correction filters to try and smooth out the bass response. But, the basic 2EQ version that you have doesn't do that because there is not enough available computing power in the DSP chip in that receiver. So, you will hear the same bass whether you have Audyssey 2EQ on or off.

70 Hz seems like a reasonable choice for your speakers, particularly if they are close to the wall.

Thanks very much Chris. You have been a big help. My speakers are pretty close to the wall so I will leave that setting alone.

Overall I am happy with the setup. I guess I will just look into a more powerful sub though.

Thanks again.
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post #17476 of 71921 Old 08-16-2009, 02:02 PM
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Originally Posted by audyssey View Post

If I am interpreting your picture correctly the Wide speaker is right next to the Left speaker. That is not enough separation to achieve what is needed. Remember, the Wide speakers should be close to 60° from center while the fronts are at 30°. Of course this is all in an ideal world. But still, if you could move the wides further down the wall it would work better. The delays will be taken care of by MultEQ.

Thank you - Chris(Audyssey DSX)

Close to "an ideal world" - I'm having the time of my life
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post #17477 of 71921 Old 08-16-2009, 02:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Flageborg View Post

1. No, but as the future is floorstanding rear surrounds

I don't think so because they are not practical. It's difficult enough to find the proper space on the walls for surround speakers and then to be "allowed" to mount them there.


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2. It's wide enough - and sound experience?.....HOLY ****** ***** **** !!!

****** ***** **** - Norwegian, right?
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post #17478 of 71921 Old 08-16-2009, 09:32 PM
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I just recently learned that not all Audyssey capable receivers can apply those EQ/filters to 96kHz and higher signals. Is that referring to all signals 96kHz and up, including LPCM? Only bitstreams (such as dts 24/96, the HD lossless codecs, etc)? Only the HD lossless codec bitstreams? Or some other combination?

Thanks!

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post #17479 of 71921 Old 08-17-2009, 07:03 AM
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Originally Posted by redsandvb View Post

I just recently learned that not all Audyssey capable receivers can apply those EQ/filters to 96kHz and higher signals. Is that referring to all signals 96kHz and up, including LPCM? Only bitstreams (such as dts 24/96, the HD lossless codecs, etc)? Only the HD lossless codec bitstreams? Or some other combination?

It is a matter of processing power. Some manufacturers' designs have more "extra" CPU cycles for additional processing tasks and some have less. Most AVRs and pre/pros that I know of do it all up to and including 96KHz, and drop Audyssey beyond that. Some, however, drop Audyssey "earlier" and do not do 96KHz. (Hint: the manufacturer's name begins with "Marant" )

I *think* it is sampling rate-related - the KHz number - and not related to the codec itself. You should be able to dig the limitations out of the manufacturers' product data, but some have it buried deeper than others.
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post #17480 of 71921 Old 08-17-2009, 07:06 AM
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Originally Posted by redsandvb View Post

I just recently learned that not all Audyssey capable receivers can apply those EQ/filters to 96kHz and higher signals. Is that referring to all signals 96kHz and up, including LPCM? Only bitstreams (such as dts 24/96, the HD lossless codecs, etc)? Only the HD lossless codec bitstreams? Or some other combination?

Thanks!

Hi,

I haven't done exhaustive research on all Audyssey capable receivers, but it is quite possible that an AVR that doesn't have the processing power to decode bitstreamed content at 96 kHz and enable Audyssey, might have the power to enable Audyssey on content sampled at 96 kHz if it was already in LPCM form coming from the player.

Here's some remarks regarding a few Audyssey capable prepros.

Posting #14219

For the Marantz prepro the manual discusses an EQ limitation for bitstreamed content sampled at 96 kHz, but doesn't discuss any limitations for LPCM.

The Onkyo/Integra prepros' manuals discussess an EQ limitation for all content sampled at 176.4/192 kHz regardless of whether nor not it was bitstreamed.

The Denon prepro's manual does not discuss any EQ limitations whatsoever at any sampling rate.

Of course the fact that a manual fails to discuss a processing limitation is not conclusive evidence that it doesn't have a limitation, but merely a place to start in our research.

Larry
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post #17481 of 71921 Old 08-17-2009, 04:52 PM
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Originally Posted by audyssey View Post

Hi Matt,

I have to say this is among the strangest issues I have come across... MultEQ is completely source agnostic. It just sits in its little box inside the DSP chip and happily processes whatever the AVR decides to send through the door. It has no clue if the source is bitstream or PCM. At this point I have to suspect something in the receiver firmware, but I can't imagine what. I'm sorry for all this trouble you are having, but I think that only Denon can help you by examining your AVR.

Hi again Chris,

Took me awhile to follow up... Well, the trouble isn't your fault, but thanks. I couldn't call Denon last weekend when I posted last, but did last Monday. Didn't try to go through any troubleshooting, etc. after they looked up my prior online contact, and instead asked if I wanted to "take it" in for service. But there's no Service Center around here (the one is only for products purchased from there it seems), so I prepared to send it to the place in NJ by filling out the "SRA" form, which I already had seen on their site (guess I didn't even need to call!).

I didn't get it shipped until Thursday, but it's supposed to be there tomorrow. I don't know that you would, but if you want any of the information about the case (SRA #, whatever), let me know. Not sure if you could do anything with it, but figured if you have an interest in the issue, maybe you have a technician/engineering contact or something there, hehe.

Now to wait as I wonder what will happen. Hope it's not returned unchanged!
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post #17482 of 71921 Old 08-17-2009, 04:58 PM
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Originally Posted by DR_LaRRY_PEpPeR View Post

Now to wait as I wonder what will happen. Hope it's not returned unchanged!

Hi Matt,

I don't have any contacts with the service/repair side so I don't think I would be of much help there. I am very curious to hear how (if?) this is resolved.

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post #17483 of 71921 Old 08-17-2009, 05:31 PM
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Chris, when is pioneer going to start using audyssey for their receivers? i want to get one of their receivers but the only reason i might not get it and go with a denon instead is because of audyssey. im so use to using it with my 705 i've had for almost 2 years now. you see what you've done to me

Also, did you know pioneers MCACC doesn't do any EQ to the sub?.......thats something i need!

home theater addict
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post #17484 of 71921 Old 08-17-2009, 05:32 PM
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Originally Posted by saprano View Post

Chris, when is pioneer going to start using audyssey for their receivers? i want to get one of their receivers but the only reason i might not get it and go with a denon instead is because of audyssey. im so use to using it with my 705 i've had for almost 2 years now. you see what you've done to me

Also, did you know pioneers MCACC doesn't do any EQ to the sub?.......thats something i need!

Wow thats a good thing I think... the 8033 is supposed to be great on subs I would actually prefer a reciever that left the sub alone so I could get an anti-mode
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post #17485 of 71921 Old 08-17-2009, 05:37 PM
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Originally Posted by goonstopher View Post

Wow thats a good thing I think... the 8033 is supposed to be great on subs I would actually prefer a reciever that left the sub alone so I could get an anti-mode

First, how did you respond so fast?

Anyway, you think its good if an receiver doesn't EQ? alot of subs come with their own room correction for the sub so i guess it really doesn't matter.

But the question is, are they as good as audysseys EQ?

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post #17486 of 71921 Old 08-17-2009, 05:39 PM
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Originally Posted by saprano View Post

first, how did you respond so fast?

anyway, you think its good if an receiver doesn't eq? Alot of subs come with their own room correction for the sub so i guess it really doesn't matter.

But the question is, is it as good as audysseys eq?

imo, no.
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post #17487 of 71921 Old 08-17-2009, 05:50 PM
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Originally Posted by MACCA350 View Post

You can change the resolution of the graph when you save it. Go to 'Graph' menu, select 'Save Graph as JPEG', a dialogue box will open, on the left is resolution adjustment.

I know that. I'm talking about the fact that it uses JPEG file type, which generally shouldn't be used for non-photographic stuff such as these charts/graphs, since it causes artifacts/smearing at sharp color transitions, etc. And by "PNG is smaller" I meant the filesize, not dimensions/resolution.

Quote:


I also used 16 Averages.



Quote:


I, like Chris, am stumped It's very strange that this would occur.

It almost looks like there are different Audyssey filters used. Can you check what is set in the Audyssey menu while running each signal type?
I'm just wondering that maybe the AVR is changing from "Audyssey" to "Manual" or "L/R Bypass" depending on the input signal.

Though IIRC this is something that Denon does not change as part of it's input signal sensitive options. But there seems to be a completely different Audyssey curve for the two signals..........I assume you have ruled out other input signal sensitive processing options like Pro-Logic IIx Music/Cinema, or other DSP's............though I have already checked PLIIx and it does not cause such discrepancies.

It would be nice to get to the bottom of this, but as Chris mentioned you're probably better off contacting Denon to have it fixed/replaced.

cheers

Yeah, the MultEQ setting is per-input, and not dependent on input signal.



Before I sent it off to Denon, I wanted to try a DD 2.0 signal to see if it was still the same when simplifying things even more. I attempted to check with some recordings on the Dish Network DVR (to not use the PS3), but the stupid thing wouldn't output a PCM signal even when I set the digital out to "PCM Only" and removed the HDMI connection (signal support negotiation) for component/optical... Oh well. So back to the PS3.

I checked the building explosion scene on the Rush Hour DVD since it has a stereo track too (well, AVR shows 2/1 channels when bitstreamed). Yes, with MultEQ on, I still noticed a difference between bitstream/PCM -- not as much as other scenes, but depends what frequency the bass is at (and I didn't even compare the 5.1 track here). Again, Dynamic EQ shows the difference better -- more "rumble" with bitstream. Needless to say, I detected no difference between them with MultEQ Off.

As a final cannot-make-it-any-simpler test I switched to Stereo mode (yes, for both signal types ) to remove the PLII(x) processing. Same result!


Earlier last week, I was curious how a plain analog REW measurement of the subwoofer pre-out would look with MultEQ on, and if it would "match" the pattern of either of the digital multi-channel results. The front channel crossover was temporarily set to 250Hz.



(It was more "squiggly" than expected , but I haven't moved the sub to a better place yet...)

Comparing the graph from my previous post, the dips below 50 and 70 and the peak below 60 seem to follow the PCM result (certainly not bitstream!), but not so much otherwise. They should have a similar pattern right? And yes, all measurements have been done with the same Audyssey setup.
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post #17488 of 71921 Old 08-17-2009, 06:15 PM
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Originally Posted by saprano View Post

First, how did you respond so fast?

Anyway, you think its good if an receiver doesn't EQ? alot of subs come with their own room correction for the sub so i guess it really doesn't matter.

But the question is, are they as good as audysseys EQ?

I am making a major subwoofer decision so I am having half a nervous breakdown am and on the board a biiiiit too much.

I don't know enough to say it is better but it is suppose to have more filters and in a few tests seemed to have faster decay times for a single spot (which for me is perfect, I have one main chair)
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post #17489 of 71921 Old 08-17-2009, 06:26 PM
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imo, no.

No what? no that the receiver shouldn't EQ, or no that a subwoofers room correction is better than audyssey?

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post #17490 of 71921 Old 08-17-2009, 06:29 PM
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No what? no that the receiver shouldn't EQ, or no that a subwoofers room correction is better than audyssey?

The last one. Until Audyssey tech is the onboard correction, it will not be as good. imo.
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