"Official" Audyssey thread (FAQ in post #51779) - Page 589 - AVS Forum
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post #17641 of 72953 Old 08-20-2009, 02:42 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by audyssey View Post

The default setting for the software is that it first applies time delay and level adjustment to each sub so they become equidistant and play at the same level. Then it sums them and measures the combined response from which the room correction filter is calculated.

Which brings me back to the first point I made, that you're designed the processing for people running (roughly) identical (or at least identically capable) subwoofers, because from the above it seem that if one runs out of steam before the other the system is limited to the capabilities of 2*[weakest sub].

That's opposed to an approach that uses one big ("ULF") sub and other ("broadband") subs primarily to randomize room mode effects, where the "BB" subs are run at comparatively low level (or, to put it another way, can be much smaller/less capable) and blended into the main subs.

Quote:
Originally Posted by audyssey View Post

The distance reported is not a physical tape measure distance, but a delay that is calculated from the combined time-domain response of all subs.

A lot of people, more wrongly than rightly, suggest "checking" Audyssey by comparing the "distance" calculated with the actual measured distance to the sub. I never put much stock in that, but I was just commenting that a "distance" setting has no easily-measurable meaning in a Geddes-style multisub system.

Thanks for the clarifications.

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post #17642 of 72953 Old 08-20-2009, 03:17 PM
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Is there a new version of MultiXt Pro from May 2008?
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post #17643 of 72953 Old 08-20-2009, 03:49 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HTPCat View Post

I currently have 7.1 all definitive technology speakers with the 4 wides/heights/surrounds/backs Bipolar BPXs and the fronts are Bipolar BP2004TL and the center is the C/L/R 2500. The 2 surrounds are placed at about 95 degrees from main listening position and 5' 6" from the floor to the bottom of the speaker on the back wall and the other 2 are about 50 degrees and the same height on the side walls. I am using a denon AVR-4310 and have been experimenting with audyssey setup and was wondering about the use of 2 of the speakers as either wides or heights? Any comments or suggestions? The room is 18' X 13' with some ability to adjust my listening posiition, but not much in the way of speaker placement.

FYI Chris -- just as additional info on this, I referred HTPCat here from the 4310CI thread to see what you thought about the placement of his "wide" speakers.

As you can see from his description, he's using a standard towers + center speaker setup for the L/C/R speakers, but then the "wide" speakers are bipolar surrounds, wall mounted at 50-degrees spread but 5.5ft height.

Since the recommendation for "height" speakers is 45-degrees and up high... but the recommendation for "wide" speakers is 60-degrees spread but at the same height as the L/C/R speakers, I observed that his "wides" appear to actually be in between the "height" and "wide" recommendations.

Thus, I am curious what you would recommend for his setup.... use them as heights or wides? reposition the speakers (if possible)? or general thoughts on using bipolar surrounds like the BPX for "wides"?

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post #17644 of 72953 Old 08-20-2009, 04:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HTPCat View Post

I currently have 7.1 all definitive technology speakers with the 4 wides/heights/surrounds/backs Bipolar BPXs and the fronts are Bipolar BP2004TL and the center is the C/L/R 2500. The 2 surrounds are placed at about 95 degrees from main listening position and 5' 6" from the floor to the bottom of the speaker on the back wall and the other 2 are about 50 degrees and the same height on the side walls. I am using a denon AVR-4310 and have been experimenting with audyssey setup and was wondering about the use of 2 of the speakers as either wides or heights? Any comments or suggestions? The room is 18' X 13' with some ability to adjust my listening posiition, but not much in the way of speaker placement.

The Wides provide cues that are significantly more important that the heights and will make the most noticeable improvement. To get the most benefit from them it's important to have them at the same height as the fronts. We don't think of these as surround speakers at all. They are really part of the front speakers and having them at a different height may influence how you perceive left-to-right pans, for example. The 60° placement is ideal, but there is a ±10° tolerance that still gives very good results.

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post #17645 of 72953 Old 08-20-2009, 04:40 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bsandiego View Post

Is there a new version of MultiXt Pro from May 2008?

If you are referring to the MultEQ Pro software, then yes there is. It is v. 3.1.

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post #17646 of 72953 Old 08-20-2009, 06:44 PM
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Chris,

Does the 3.1 version allow processing of 96KHZ inputs? Also where can I find a description of what the capablities are vs 3.0?

Thanks
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post #17647 of 72953 Old 08-20-2009, 06:53 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bsandiego View Post

Chris,

Does the 3.1 version allow processing of 96KHZ inputs? Also where can I find a description of what the capablities are vs 3.0?

Thanks

Hi,

The processing sampling rates are up to each device manufacturer. The Audyssey software supports any sampling rate that the manufacturer allows on the DSP chip they select in their products.

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post #17648 of 72953 Old 08-21-2009, 07:00 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bsandiego View Post

Chris,

Does the 3.1 version allow processing of 96KHZ inputs? Also where can I find a description of what the capablities are vs 3.0?

bsandiego, the Pro software is part of the Audyssey Pro Installer Kit and runs on a PC - laptop usually - and calculates/manipulates the Audyssey filters/curve which is then uploaded to the AVR or pre/pro. It doesn't change the capabilities of the associated AVR or pre-pro, or even change any code in it. The AVR or pre/pro must be Audyssey Pro-ready and *that* might require a firmware upgrade. In any case, the only way to change the internal processing capability of an AVR or pre/pro is to physically change parts inside it.
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post #17649 of 72953 Old 08-21-2009, 07:15 AM
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I've seen folks suggest moving the crossover up to 80hz as many times, it seems Audyssey sets the front mains to 40hz. However, when I tried doing that after the setup on my Denon, it didn't seem to change anything. Should I be setting this before? Again, moving the manual settings doesn't seem to offset the 40hz settings that were automatically selected by Audyssey.
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post #17650 of 72953 Old 08-21-2009, 07:23 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mtmartin71 View Post

I've seen folks suggest moving the crossover up to 80hz as many times, it seems Audyssey sets the front mains to 40hz. However, when I tried doing that after the setup on my Denon, it didn't seem to change anything. Should I be setting this before? Again, moving the manual settings doesn't seem to offset the 40hz settings that were automatically selected by Audyssey.

Actually it is the manufacturer of the AVR or pre/pro that decides on the crossover settings after Audyssey passes it the results of its measurements. I am not a Denon owner, but I have seen replies to this kind of post and as I understand it, there is a review screen, on which no changes can be made, and another screen where they can. Have you looked at your manual?
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post #17651 of 72953 Old 08-21-2009, 08:36 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mtmartin71 View Post

I've seen folks suggest moving the crossover up to 80hz as many times, it seems Audyssey sets the front mains to 40hz. However, when I tried doing that after the setup on my Denon, it didn't seem to change anything. Should I be setting this before? Again, moving the manual settings doesn't seem to offset the 40hz settings that were automatically selected by Audyssey.

All settinga in the AVR are ignored during Autosetup. After running Autosetup, to raise xovers, go to:
Menu->Manual Setup->Speaker Setup->Crossover
Whatever values you reset will always display there. This is the Denon way. What's confusing is that the 40 Hz will still appear under Menu->Autosetup-> Parameter Check->Crossover Freq Check
This indicates the original Autosetup settings, which can always be reset by
Menu->Autosetup-> Parameter Check->Restore.

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post #17652 of 72953 Old 08-21-2009, 09:26 AM
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My-> head-> is-> spinning.

Thank goodness for that simple Denon-to-human interface.
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post #17653 of 72953 Old 08-21-2009, 09:59 AM
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Originally Posted by JHAz View Post

My-> head-> is-> spinning.
Thank goodnes for that simple Denon-to-human interface.

It's really only a few keystrokes on the remote. But thank goodness for batpig and his "Denon-to-English Dictionary"
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Yes, I still like playing with Dalis.

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post #17654 of 72953 Old 08-21-2009, 10:00 AM
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Chris have you heard whether Denon will give us firmware to add DSX to the AVP A1HD?

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post #17655 of 72953 Old 08-21-2009, 10:53 AM
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Chris have you heard whether Denon will give us firmware to add DSX to the AVP A1HD?

I haven't yet, but I will report back once I hear.

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post #17656 of 72953 Old 08-21-2009, 03:32 PM
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I am at a loss.

I have recently purchased some new subs (dual Seaton SubMersives) and have tried to integrate them into my processor (Onkyo 885) in two different room positions. My Audyssey results for all of the channels but the subs is great. For the subs, it sucks. I have used the Audyssey with my previous subs (dual SVS PC13 Ultras) with the same underwhelming results)

In my most recent attempt, I used a Tact digital room correction device to help me find the location that had the best compromise between FR and room "cosmetics" and ended up with the subs next to the mains. The subwoofer uncorrected FR is not bad and is VERY listenable. (The Tact, like the Audyssey, operates in the time domain but you can view the results in the frequency domain. It's a great tool for speaker placement).

While I have purchased Audyssey Pro I have yet to use it but am surprised that the results I am getting are so poor from the built in Audyssey in my Prepro. I have followed the published Audyssey user guide to perfection and measured all 8 positions. The SubMersives are noted for their slam factor but it is missing when Audyssey is enabled. It also sounds like Audyssey is pumping up the lowest end of the SubMersive FR which is very unnatural sounding. I have the mic on the end of a mic stand. The seats are NOT near a rear wall, the furniture is NOT reflective, the room was custom built and has lots of bass traps.

Any clues?
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post #17657 of 72953 Old 08-21-2009, 03:41 PM
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how do you know the results are poor? it is a subjective impression or have you taken measurements?

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post #17658 of 72953 Old 08-21-2009, 05:46 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by batpig View Post

how do you know the results are poor? it is a subjective impression or have you taken measurements?

Have I taken measurements after Audyyssy? No. How do I know it sounds poor?: (1) 45 years as an audiophile (2) I have owned more than 17 different subs (3) I have installed more than 200 digital room correction systems and have heard great bass and less great bass and crappy bass (4) I have been in the audio business for over 15 years (5) I have listened to the same demo tracks multiple times in multiple systems (6) I have ears and (7) I have opinions.

I don't need to measure to know it is not correct. Measurements are a great tool to find a specific problem. They are not necessary to tell if there is one.
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post #17659 of 72953 Old 08-21-2009, 05:46 PM
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I am going to stay out of the upsampling and upconverting to higher word-length discussion. I have a feeling my views will be ...unpopular.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SoundofMind View Post


3. You say The denon does not convert a bitstream to PCM it actually decodes the audio and plays it back in it's purest form. AL24 would not apply to this because no upsampling is required. I thought that Audyssey requires PCM conversion? Thanks again."
Answer:

3.)Audyssey does not require PCM conversion."

Bitstream is an encoded format that requires decoding in order for us to hear the content. The method of encoding and decoding comes from Dolby and DTS. It can be lossy or lossless. The decoding can happen in the player or in the receiver and that results in PCM audio being sent to the DSP chip for other digital processing (e.g., bass management, Audyssey, etc.).

The path that the decoded signal has to travel can be long (e.g. over the HDMI or SPDIF cable from the player) or very short (a few µm inside the chip after it went through the decoder block). But it has to be decoded to PCM somewhere! No digital process can operate on a bitstream signal that has not been decoded. So, I don't quite understand the answer from the tech saying that "Audyssey does not require PCM conversion". Perhaps they meant you don't have to send PCM to the receiver from the player since the receiver can do the decoding on its own.

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post #17660 of 72953 Old 08-21-2009, 05:54 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by audioguy View Post

Have I taken measurements after Audyyssy? No. How do I know it sounds poor?: (1) 45 years as an audiophile (2) I have owned more than 17 different subs (3) I have installed more than 200 digital room correction systems and have heard great bass and less great bass and crappy bass (4) I have been in the audio business for over 15 years (5) I have listened to the same demo tracks multiple times in multiple systems (6) I have ears and (7) I have opinions.

I don't need to measure to know it is not correct. Measurements are a great tool to find a specific problem. They are not necessary to tell if there is one.

Ah. The quintessential "Golden Ear."

Pray tell, what exactly is "slam factor" and how to you define "unnatural sounding?"
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post #17661 of 72953 Old 08-21-2009, 06:15 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by audioguy View Post

I have installed more than 200 digital room correction systems


Quote:
Originally Posted by audioguy View Post

I have been in the audio business for over 15 years

Are you saying you have never run Audyssey before?

Or you have but have not achieved the goal of a flat frequency response to match the mixing studio in a home environment?
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post #17662 of 72953 Old 08-21-2009, 08:47 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by giomania View Post

G. Calibrate the subwoofer volume

1. Set the volume control on the subwoofer at the middle of the adjustment range allowed.
a. Please note this “starting point” may not work with all subwoofers.

2. Place the microphone at the first measurement position (see guidance in section V.) and proceed with the calibration process for the first measurement—until all speakers have been measured once.

3. After the first measurement process is complete, select "Calculate", then "Save" or "Store", then go to "Check Parameters".
a. Audyssey will calculate the speaker distances and trim level settings from this first measurement.
b. Each manufacturer has a slightly different interface, so the terminology may not exactly match.

4. Check the subwoofer trim level setting in the receiver / processor menu.
a. If the subwoofers’ trim level is at the maximum limit of the cut (-) or boost (+) adjustment range allowed, you need to adjust the volume control on the subwoofer and repeat step #2. Specific instructions will follow.
b. Trim adjustments are a tool used to achieve the goal of producing the same Sound Pressure Level (SPL) from each speaker / subwoofer in the system.
c. For example, Denon receivers have a trim adjustment range from -12dB to +12dB.

5. If the subwoofer trim level is at the maximum boost (+), turn up the volume control on the subwoofer slightly and repeat step #2.

6. If the subwoofer trim level is at the maximum cut (-), turn down the volume control on the subwoofer slightly and repeat step #2.

7. A suggestion for tweakers is to set the subwoofer trim level in the range of ±3 dB.
a. This is only a suggestion for the tweaker who likes to play around.
b. Audyssey’s position is to perform steps 4 to 6 above.

• Note: This process is for checking the subwoofer trim levels only. After you have completed the subwoofer setup, be sure to start the measurement process over, following the guidance in section V to use all six or eight measurement positions available.


i've ran the set up for my denon 1610 and i have some questions: am i suppose to leave the high cut knob set to the highest setting and the volume at half way after i run the test? or do i set it back where it was before i ran the test?

was i suppose to leave the high cut knob set to the highest setting and the volume at half way during the whole test or just during step one?

when i ran the test the way it read above it set, it had the channel level for the sub set at -7.0db. when i restarted the test like it said i set the volume and high cut knob back toe where it was before i ran the Calibrate the subwoofer volume setup. after i did all 6 positions it has the channel level for the sub set at -4.0db.

should i re run the test? also the distance of the sub is 2 feet difference than the front and center speakers and they are sitting close to the sub. is this something i should be worried about?

thx and i hope this all makes sense

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post #17663 of 72953 Old 08-21-2009, 09:04 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bluesky636 View Post

Ah. The quintessential "Golden Ear."

Pray tell, what exactly is "slam factor" and how to you define "unnatural sounding?"

My guess is that if you heard, for example, a sub with a 9db peak 1/4 octave wide at, say, 65Hz, you would not need to measure it to know that something was not right. You probably would need to measure it to identify that it was at 65Hz versus some other frequency. If you think that you would not be able to define such a deviation from standard WITHOUT measuring it as "unnatural", then you may need your ears cleaned. I have never claimed to be a golden ear, but it is pretty easy to tell when there is a serious issue with sub performance without measuring first.

How do I define "slam factor". Exactly the way a member of the US Supreme Court once said about pornography " I may not be able to define it but I know it when I see (hear) it."
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post #17664 of 72953 Old 08-21-2009, 09:42 PM
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A friend bought an Integra DTC9.8 after hearing about mine. I visited him today and was surprised to see tiny Bose speakers on top of his huge JBL lf,rf,ls and rs speakers in his 7.1 system. Channels 6 & 7 were other brand standalones. Each Bose pair were wired back to their own Bose sub. The JBLs have their own center channel.
The cable from each Bose sub is wired back to the appropriate left and right channels. And so is each JBL speaker. He paid for the pro Audyssey calibration. They did ask if he wanted the speakers paralleled and he said yes. So they went ahead with the calibration.

I'm thinking the mike picks up a room sound from each channel as though there were one speaker at each pair of terminals. Then solves the equation with one profile, call it A. I think the Bose need profile B (doesn't exist) and the JBLs need profile J (doesn't exist). Will profile A pump out the right tweaks to each two speaker channel?

The more eggregious discrepency I would think would be the bass. BTW he has a brand new Polk sub. The Bose subs are positioned between each left and right speaker pair, with no bass in the tiny Bose satellites and lots in the full range JBLs.

I don't live near him but I wouldn't mind going back and ripping out the Bose speakers and doing the Audyssey setup myself. But I'm a little miffed about the money he spent for the pro setup.

What's your opinion?

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post #17665 of 72953 Old 08-21-2009, 10:08 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Patrick Collins View Post

They did ask if he wanted the speakers paralleled and he said yes. So they went ahead with the calibration.

I will never cease to be amazed by the desire of people to use *all* their existing gear in one setup... Connecting more than one satellite speaker per channel (regardless of brand) is a terrible idea. You will end up with comb filtering by definition. He needs to decide on one system and have it recalibrated. The other system should be in a different room.

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post #17666 of 72953 Old 08-21-2009, 10:57 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by audioguy View Post

My guess is that if you heard, for example, a sub with a 9db peak 1/4 octave wide at, say, 65Hz, you would not need to measure it to know that something was not right. You probably would need to measure it to identify that it was at 65Hz versus some other frequency. If you think that you would not be able to define such a deviation from standard WITHOUT measuring it as "unnatural", then you may need your ears cleaned. I have never claimed to be a golden ear, but it is pretty easy to tell when there is a serious issue with sub performance without measuring first.

How do I define "slam factor". Exactly the way a member of the US Supreme Court once said about pornography " I may not be able to define it but I know it when I see (hear) it."

I'm impressed.

Well, now that we know that the diagnosis of your problem was strictly subjective, what sort of help would you like?

Seems to me that your sub location ended up biased more towards "cosmetics" than performance. Maybe you should try relocating your subs to a more favorable ACOUSTIC location and then rerun Audyssey. Please come back and tell us how it all works out.

By the way, I love your signature line. Perhaps if you had given Batpig a straightforward answer to his question instead of a lecture and list of your "accomplishments", I might believe that you actually live that way. Arrogance will not help get your questions answered.
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post #17667 of 72953 Old 08-22-2009, 01:06 AM
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Pdnftt
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post #17668 of 72953 Old 08-22-2009, 05:19 AM
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Let them Pdnftt each other.
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post #17669 of 72953 Old 08-22-2009, 06:27 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by soul embrace View Post

...am i suppose to leave the high cut knob set to the highest setting and the volume at half way after i run the test? or do i set it back where it was before i ran the test?... also the distance of the sub is 2 feet difference than the front and center speakers and they are sitting close to the sub.

The high cut knob is never moved from the highest setting. Once you set the volume knob, you leave it there (unless you need to adjust it and rerun Audyssey). If the sub reads 2' further than the physical distance, that is nothing to worry about. How's it sound?

Yes, I still like playing with Dalis.

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post #17670 of 72953 Old 08-22-2009, 07:56 AM
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I posted this on the Mythos thread and thought maybe I could get an opinion here as well:

Finally got all hooked and ready, the Mythos STS and the Reference Sub are a great complement to one another and they really are awe-inspiring to say the least. My wife whom normally could care less (so she says) is just as impressed as I was. We really enjoy the complement and with the size of our room being over 4k cub ft we have finally heard the BOOM we are all looking for. Thanks again to all of you who helped and offered support in this upgrade journey, it was greatly appreciated- especially Chris w/ Audyssey.

I have a Denon 4310ci and ran Audyssey with the sub and STS, any setting recommendations for maximizing the system would be greatly appreciated, Audyssey had me set the sub at probably the 9 O'clock position for volume with all of the settings at 150 (dials). I then have the STS at the 1 O'clock position (sub volume) with just the line ins (R/L) and though they were set at Large, I realize now I should change this to small or would it be better to do the LFE + Main setting?

Audysseys findings:

-2.5db, 13.2 ft Front L (STS)
-6.0db, 13.4 ft Center (Mythos Ten)
-2.0db, 13.4 ft Front R (STS)
+2.0db, 14.0ft Front Wide L (Genie)
+1.0db, 12.6ft Front Wide R (Genie)
+0.5db, 14.6ft Subwoofer (Def T Reference)
-3.5db, 7.8ft Surround L
-3.5db, 8.9ft Surround R

I will be replacing the wide speakers with a set of GemXL's but I just haven't had the chance to run the wire through the walls so have been using the Genie's for the time being. I am such a novice with the Audio side of things so sorry to be a pest but any advise would be greatly appreciated.
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