"Official" Audyssey thread (FAQ in post #51779) - Page 592 - AVS Forum
Forum Jump: 
Reply
 
Thread Tools
post #17731 of 72375 Old 08-23-2009, 05:11 PM
Senior Member
 
RSTide's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Posts: 234
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 11
Quote:
Originally Posted by toddRiffic View Post

Hey tratliff,

Do you ever use Dynamic Volume? Dialog intelligibility is one of it's biggest reasons I use it for movie watching.

I'll have to try this, too. I thought Dynamic Volume was for TV commercials not to sound so loud.
RSTide is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #17732 of 72375 Old 08-23-2009, 05:13 PM
AVS Special Member
 
audyssey's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: Los Angeles
Posts: 4,150
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by RSTide View Post

I'll have to try this, too. I thought Dynamic Volume was for TV commercials not to sound so loud.

That's one of the benefits, but the technology was designed around keeping dialog at the desired level while making sure that nothing gets too loud or too soft around it. There are 2 or 3 settings for it depending on what AVR you have that can control the amount of dynamic range you hear. I would suggest starting with the lowest and move up as needed.

Chris

Join me for Audyssey Tech Talk on Facebook
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
.
Follow me @ChrisAudyssey on Twitter
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
.
audyssey is offline  
post #17733 of 72375 Old 08-23-2009, 05:19 PM
AVS Addicted Member
 
millerwill's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: Berkeley, CA
Posts: 11,416
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 40 Post(s)
Liked: 38
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gary J View Post

Plenty of us have similar speakers with no such complaints. I think Chris's response to the poster is a lot closer to the truth.

Strongly agree. I've had several horizontal center speakers with excellent dialog. Rooms are, of course, different so that nothing is ever exactly the same..
millerwill is offline  
post #17734 of 72375 Old 08-23-2009, 07:21 PM
AVS Special Member
 
Zen Traveler's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Texas
Posts: 4,141
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 127 Post(s)
Liked: 316
Quote:
Originally Posted by millerwill View Post

Strongly agree. I've had several horizontal center speakers with excellent dialog...

I have Klipsch RF-7 Towers with the voice matched, horizontal RC-7 and it sounds excellent. I also have similar (what used to be considered "large") towers for surrounds and huge monitor speakers (also voice matched to the RF-7s) and I primarily listen to multichannel music...Coupled with my dual RSW subs and Audyssey in my Denon AVR 4806, I am ecstatic.
Zen Traveler is offline  
post #17735 of 72375 Old 08-23-2009, 07:24 PM
Wireless member
 
pepar's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: Quintana Roo ... in my mind
Posts: 25,027
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 98 Post(s)
Liked: 155
Quote:
Originally Posted by craig john View Post


. . 3 identical speakers, mounted at identical heights, (ear level) is the gold standard. Anything else is a compromise.

. . 3 identical speakers, mounted at identical heights, (ear level) - BEHIND AN AT SCREEN - is the gold standard. Anything else is a compromise.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
- it's never done!


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.



To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
pepar is online now  
post #17736 of 72375 Old 08-23-2009, 07:30 PM
AVS Addicted Member
 
Kal Rubinson's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: NYC + Connecticut
Posts: 28,456
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 77 Post(s)
Liked: 134
Quote:
Originally Posted by pepar View Post

. . 3 identical speakers, mounted at identical heights, (ear level) - BEHIND AN AT SCREEN - is the gold standard. Anything else is a compromise.

. . 3 identical speakers, mounted at identical heights, (ear level) - INSTEAD OF A SCREEN - is the gold standard. Anything else is a compromise.

Kal Rubinson

"Music in the Round"
Senior Contributing Editor, Stereophile

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

Kal Rubinson is offline  
post #17737 of 72375 Old 08-23-2009, 07:44 PM
Advanced Member
 
kaotikr1's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: Scottsbluff, NE
Posts: 854
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 7 Post(s)
Liked: 37
I have been reading but maybe I have missed it or not searching for the right word.

How many people use the Dynamic Volume and do you use light or heavy? Also is it only available on some listening modes?

Also do you use Dynamic Volume on everything? Sports, Blu-Ray, etc...?


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.



To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
kaotikr1 is offline  
post #17738 of 72375 Old 08-23-2009, 08:19 PM
AVS Special Member
 
toddRiffic's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Puyallup, WA
Posts: 1,102
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 24
Quote:
Originally Posted by kaotikr1 View Post

I have been reading but maybe I have missed it or not searching for the right word.

How many people use the Dynamic Volume and do you use light or heavy? Also is it only available on some listening modes?

Also do you use Dynamic Volume on everything? Sports, Blu-Ray, etc...?

Hey kaotikr1,

I for one can not listen at reference levels and Dynamic Volume/Dynamic EQ is indispensible for TV and movies. I would never use it for music listening though, sounds lifeless to these ears. Dynamic EQ alone gives me great results for music.

BTW I use the medium setting for Dynamic volume on my Denon 1909

toddRiffic

 


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.



To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

toddRiffic is offline  
post #17739 of 72375 Old 08-23-2009, 08:37 PM
AVS Special Member
 
toddRiffic's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Puyallup, WA
Posts: 1,102
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 24
Quote:
Originally Posted by goonstopher View Post

This topic is probably making a ton of members (like myself) panic about their center channels.... I really can't afford to keep reading this board and haviong to buy something new

Hey goonstopher,

I have Definitive Tech PM1000's L & R with a PC2000 center. If I had it to do over again, I would have saved some money and bought a extra PM1000 for the center. I have swapped out the PC2000 center channel with a 3rd PM1000 and it sounded great. But I didn't have any complaints with my MTM PC2000 in the first place, so after a week the 3rd PM1000 in the center position went back to the bedroom and I have no dialog issues that I hear in my room.

Sorry if it sounds off topic, but I suspect that tratliff will soon post that his Dialog issue was greatly helped by turning on Dynamic Volume without spending a penny on a new speaker or room treatments. Not that there's anything wrong with that.

toddRiffic

 


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.



To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

toddRiffic is offline  
post #17740 of 72375 Old 08-23-2009, 08:52 PM
Wireless member
 
pepar's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: Quintana Roo ... in my mind
Posts: 25,027
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 98 Post(s)
Liked: 155
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kal Rubinson View Post

. . 3 identical speakers, mounted at identical heights, (ear level) - INSTEAD OF A SCREEN - is the gold standard. Anything else is a compromise.

Oh well, I guess if you don't have . . eyes.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
- it's never done!


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.



To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
pepar is online now  
post #17741 of 72375 Old 08-23-2009, 09:55 PM
AVS Special Member
 
DS-21's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 3,424
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 103 Post(s)
Liked: 181
Quote:
Originally Posted by pepar View Post

. . 3 identical speakers, mounted at identical heights, (ear level) - BEHIND AN AT SCREEN - is the gold standard. Anything else is a compromise.

Anything less than a front projector and a huge screen - or a white bedsheet tensioned on a frame, some people recommend as cheaper, similar for visuals, and better for sonics - might be far preferable to a die-hard movie buff. But this thread isn't in the video area, and Audyssey doesn't correct anything visual so far as I know or care. For audio, who cares about the screen except that one has to work around (or behind) it?

No, actually speakers' height depends entirely on the vertical polar response of one's speakers. Better speakers - that is to say, speakers based around big woofers with coincident/concentric tweeters to control dispersion at the bottom of the tweeter's passband, or speakers with big woofers and a constant-directivity waveguide to control dispersion at the bottom of the tweeter's passband - have a narrow notch on axis that fills in as one moves around the speaker. So they should be off-axis. (That's why Dr. Geddes recommends listening to his Summa speakers at 20deg or so off axis. I believe Tannoy gives similar instructions for their big Dual Concentric based speakers.) Obviously, if a center is mounted at ear height, that on-axis notch will be firing right at the main seating position. So ear-level a bad idea for a center channel using better speakers.

So, how to get the center slightly off-axis? Well, a concentric driver has symmetrical horizontal and vertical dispersion, so one can simply raise all three speakers! In listening, I found about 55" off the floor (12" Tannoy Dual Concentrics) had the best-sounding (and I think second- or third- smoothest-measuring) response for the center. (Listening height probably 35-38".) So high mounting ended up not being a compromise, but a happy accident that also happily enough leads to much greater similarity of sound for seated and standing listeners. I would've laid the TV horizontally on the floor if it meant superior fidelity to music recordings, but with that vertical space to play with my 46" LCD snuggles nicely under the center.

Quote:
Originally Posted by toddRiffic View Post

Sorry if it sounds off topic, but I suspect that tratliff will soon post that his Dialog issue was greatly helped by turning on Dynamic Volume without spending a penny on a new speaker or room treatments. Not that there's anything wrong with that.

For the record, nobody ever said a bloody word about tratliff buying new speakers. Rather, the advice was to, as I originally wrote, "throw away the center" and run phantom mode. Selling that center rather than throwing it away would even result in "spending negative pennies" on speakers or room treatments.

--
"In many cases there aren’t two sides unless one side is 'reality' and the other is 'nonsense.'" - Phil Plait

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
 

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
 
DS-21 is offline  
post #17742 of 72375 Old 08-23-2009, 11:45 PM
AVS Special Member
 
toddRiffic's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Puyallup, WA
Posts: 1,102
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 24
Quote:
Originally Posted by tratliff View Post

Dialog during movies is often hard to understand. It is the common problem where you have to turn up the volume during soft talking parts of the movie.

My center channel is below the display, 25 inches from the floor. While not ideal, I wouldn't think the position would have that much of a negative impact on dialog would it?

Any suggestions would be appreciated.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DS-21 View Post

Does your center have a horizontal midrange-tweeter-midrange layout? If so, that's your problem, and the only solution is to find a more thoughtfully-designed center channel.

Quote:
Originally Posted by toddRiffic View Post

Hey tratliff,

Do you ever use Dynamic Volume? Dialog intelligibility is one of it's biggest reasons I use it for movie watching.

Quote:
Originally Posted by toddRiffic View Post

Hey goonstopher,

Sorry if it sounds off topic, but I suspect that tratliff will soon post that his Dialog issue was greatly helped by turning on Dynamic Volume without spending a penny on a new speaker or room treatments. Not that there's anything wrong with that.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DS-21 View Post


For the record, nobody ever said a bloody word about tratliff buying new speakers. Rather, the advice was to, as I originally wrote, "throw away the center" and run phantom mode. Selling that center rather than throwing it away would even result in "spending negative pennies" on speakers or room treatments.

My mistake DS,

Just trying to help a guy is all.

toddRiffic

 


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.



To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

toddRiffic is offline  
post #17743 of 72375 Old 08-24-2009, 01:18 AM
AVS Special Member
 
HDTVChallenged's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Posts: 8,376
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3 Post(s)
Liked: 129
Quote:
Originally Posted by craig john View Post

Of course... either choice is a significant compromise outside the central "sweet spot". Phantom CC "imaging" collapses outside the sweet spot. An MTM CC exhibits lobing and comb filtering outside the sweet spot. Pick your poison.

Well, All I can say is that I recently saved about $1000 (for a fully matched 5.0 set) by just turning turning off that darned center speaker and re-foaming the woofers on my well aged L100T's. Add Audyssey, stir well ... ahhh ... much better now.
HDTVChallenged is offline  
post #17744 of 72375 Old 08-24-2009, 01:46 AM
AVS Special Member
 
Roger Dressler's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: Oregon
Posts: 8,561
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 459 Post(s)
Liked: 263
Quote:
Originally Posted by craig john View Post

This is a pretty well-documented problem. Horizontal MTM CC's, (aka "toppled" MTM CC's), exhibit lobing and comb-filtering:
http://www.audioholics.com/education...peaker-designs

That reference states: >>The most common design is a midrange-tweeter-midrange or MTM as we’ll call it.

If anyone likes you enough to watch a movie with you, the center channel must reproduce all that content smoothly and predictably across all your seats. If you’re sitting perfectly in front of the center channel, having multiple drivers of the same type in a horizontal configuration can do the job just fine.<<

So it seems to me they feel that MTM in and of itself does not automatically mean dialogue intelligibility is degraded.

Roger

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
Roger Dressler is offline  
post #17745 of 72375 Old 08-24-2009, 02:25 AM
AVS Special Member
 
Roger Dressler's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: Oregon
Posts: 8,561
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 459 Post(s)
Liked: 263
Quote:
Originally Posted by pepar View Post

. . 3 identical speakers, mounted at identical heights, (ear level) - BEHIND AN AT SCREEN - is the gold standard. Anything else is a compromise.

I would think the Gold Standard for home theater would be uncompromised picture and sound. Since AT screens degrade both to some degree, they'd have to join the ranks of all the other tradeoffs one must juggle when building a theater. If the gold standard is what happens in a movie theater, well, we've left that behind a long time ago, no?

Roger

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
Roger Dressler is offline  
post #17746 of 72375 Old 08-24-2009, 02:52 AM
Advanced Member
 
jchong's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Posts: 860
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 32
Question on Audyssey - what freq range does it cover and correct? I'm trying to figure out if the test chirps measure and correct the super low bass below 20Hz.
jchong is offline  
post #17747 of 72375 Old 08-24-2009, 04:53 AM
AVS Club Gold
 
Dennis Erskine's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 1999
Location: Near an airport
Posts: 9,141
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 11 Post(s)
Liked: 46
The minute we take a live performance, in say Meyerson Hall, and run that through some mics, we've compromised the Gold Standard (whatever that is). The minute we take a live scene, run it through a lens and place it on film (or disk), we've compromised that scene.

I would suggest the GOLD STANDARD for audio playblack is different from the GOLD STAN
DARD for video playback. However, when we say "Cinema", "Home Theater", "Movie" (with sound), we're not speaking of Audio or of Video...we're talking about a very specific environment which requires both audio and video to play nicely in the same sand box. The Gold Standard for "Home Theater" or "Cinema" would be different from whatever we'd define the Gold Standard for either audio or video by themselves.

The closest we can come to for a "Gold Standard" for movie playback would be a SMPTE or AMPAS reference screening room. The Gold Standard would therefore be the ability to replicate that environment. If we look at that environment, we have AT screens and speakers behind those screens (and no MTM's). To suggest an "AT" screen degrades Audio and/or Video is not the point of movie playback ... both elements have to considered in total working together. The question is not if just audio or just video is degraded by some horrible act (like speaker grills in front of the drivers); but, rather does the combined environment suffer and miss the mark of the theater experience.

It can be very effectively proven that an AT screen absolutely does not degrade audio playback. It can also be very effectively proven that an AT screen does absolutely nothing to degrade the quality of the video. It can also be proven that they do. The differences between the two proofs lie within the constraints (or lack thereof) applied. When the room, seating distances, subtended angles, human sensitivity to various frequencies, human visual acuity, etc. are applied differently, you have different results.

Once the "gold standard" for movie playback is achieved, it is possible (or desireable) to improve beyond that point either the audio or video. Well, yes. They can be improved (we have to be careful of the definition of "improved"). However, if, in the course of improving the audio, you reduce the video below reference, you've done damage. If you do something to improve the video at the expense of audio, you've moved off the Gold Standard mark. If you can improve either the audio or the video without degrading the other you're on your way to platinum or diamond standard. Whether or not one, or the other, can be improved without degradation to the other will depend on ... well, the room, view distances, subtended angles, number of seats, room physical constraints, etc.

Take Paul Scarpelli's Porsche on ice. A Prosche was never designed to be driven on ice ... it's not its reference or gold standard. Now, if you can modify the Porsche to perform incredibly well on ice without degrading its reference, you have a better Porsche. (Of course a real driving enthusiast would never drive a Porsche ... we all know the best performance car is an airplane. )

Just my POV.

Dennis Erskine CFI, CFII, MEI
Architectural Acoustics
Subject Matter Expert
Certified Home Theater Designer
CEDIA Board of Directors

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
Dennis Erskine is offline  
post #17748 of 72375 Old 08-24-2009, 06:26 AM
Wireless member
 
pepar's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: Quintana Roo ... in my mind
Posts: 25,027
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 98 Post(s)
Liked: 155
Quote:
Originally Posted by DS-21 View Post

Anything less than a front projector and a huge screen - or a white bedsheet tensioned on a frame, some people recommend as cheaper, similar for visuals, and better for sonics - might be far preferable to a die-hard movie buff. But this thread isn't in the video area, and Audyssey doesn't correct anything visual so far as I know or care. For audio, who cares about the screen except that one has to work around (or behind) it?

No, actually speakers' height depends entirely on the vertical polar response of one's speakers. Better speakers - that is to say, speakers based around big woofers with coincident/concentric tweeters to control dispersion at the bottom of the tweeter's passband, or speakers with big woofers and a constant-directivity waveguide to control dispersion at the bottom of the tweeter's passband - have a narrow notch on axis that fills in as one moves around the speaker. So they should be off-axis. (That's why Dr. Geddes recommends listening to his Summa speakers at 20deg or so off axis. I believe Tannoy gives similar instructions for their big Dual Concentric based speakers.) Obviously, if a center is mounted at ear height, that on-axis notch will be firing right at the main seating position. So ear-level a bad idea for a center channel using better speakers.

So, how to get the center slightly off-axis? Well, a concentric driver has symmetrical horizontal and vertical dispersion, so one can simply raise all three speakers! In listening, I found about 55" off the floor (12" Tannoy Dual Concentrics) had the best-sounding (and I think second- or third- smoothest-measuring) response for the center. (Listening height probably 35-38".) So high mounting ended up not being a compromise, but a happy accident that also happily enough leads to much greater similarity of sound for seated and standing listeners. I would've laid the TV horizontally on the floor if it meant superior fidelity to music recordings, but with that vertical space to play with my 46" LCD snuggles nicely under the center.

For the record, nobody ever said a bloody word about tratliff buying new speakers. Rather, the advice was to, as I originally wrote, "throw away the center" and run phantom mode. Selling that center rather than throwing it away would even result in "spending negative pennies" on speakers or room treatments.

Well, that's what happens when you start dealing in absolutes. This is not the "toppled MTM is an abject waste of money" thread either nor one for anything else you seem to be pontificating on and on . . and on about. And if your original post had come off more like "advice" instead of an insulting blanket condemnation, perhaps it might have been greated a bit more friendlier.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
- it's never done!


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.



To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
pepar is online now  
post #17749 of 72375 Old 08-24-2009, 06:30 AM
Wireless member
 
pepar's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: Quintana Roo ... in my mind
Posts: 25,027
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 98 Post(s)
Liked: 155
Quote:
Originally Posted by Roger Dressler View Post

I would think the Gold Standard for home theater would be uncompromised picture and sound. Since AT screens degrade both to some degree, they'd have to join the ranks of all the other tradeoffs one must juggle when building a theater. If the gold standard is what happens in a movie theater, well, we've left that behind a long time ago, no?

Hey, that's one of the reasons I am a fan of Audyssey; to EQ for the woven screen I use. Besides, movie theaters use AT screens.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
- it's never done!


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.



To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
pepar is online now  
post #17750 of 72375 Old 08-24-2009, 06:32 AM
Wireless member
 
pepar's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: Quintana Roo ... in my mind
Posts: 25,027
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 98 Post(s)
Liked: 155
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dennis Erskine View Post

Just my POV.

And a very thorough and well thought out one at that.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
- it's never done!


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.



To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
pepar is online now  
post #17751 of 72375 Old 08-24-2009, 07:07 AM
AVS Addicted Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Wetumpka, AL
Posts: 15,358
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 112 Post(s)
Liked: 191
I understand that one of the benefits of the AE1 is that the FIR filters it employs doesn't cause distortions at high Q levels over traditional equalizers.

My question is how high is high? At what Q level does this advantage of the FIR filters becomes relevant?

Samsung 64F8500, Panasonic 65VT50, Oppo 95, Tivo Roamio for OTA, Dish VIP722, Marantz AV8801 preamp, Rotel Amps, Atlantic Tech 8200 speakers, Seaton Submersive HP, Calman 5, Chromapure, Accupel DVG-5000, i1Display3pro, i1pro2, eecolor colorbox.
JimP is online now  
post #17752 of 72375 Old 08-24-2009, 07:20 AM
AVS Addicted Member
 
penngray's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Florida
Posts: 26,779
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 30
Quote:
Originally Posted by jchong View Post

Question on Audyssey - what freq range does it cover and correct? I'm trying to figure out if the test chirps measure and correct the super low bass below 20Hz.

Im not sure it does anything below 20Hz.

It is not "open-minded" to reject knowledge - Bob Lee
penngray is offline  
post #17753 of 72375 Old 08-24-2009, 07:23 AM
AVS Addicted Member
 
penngray's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Florida
Posts: 26,779
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 30
Quote:
Originally Posted by LarryChanin View Post

Hi Craig,

Exactly.

However, a phantom center stereo image also suffers from comb filtering outside the sweet spot in addition to seriously pulling the image off-center.

So for folks with home theaters with audience members sitting off-axis and with displays that are not acoustically transparent, it really does make sense to use a physical speaker, even if it's design is "flawed".

Larry

That happens with 2-ch music all the time and most people do not care.

Our brains are incredible at filling in those dips in the combing effect.

It is not "open-minded" to reject knowledge - Bob Lee
penngray is offline  
post #17754 of 72375 Old 08-24-2009, 07:24 AM
AVS Addicted Member
 
penngray's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Florida
Posts: 26,779
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 30
Quote:
Originally Posted by goonstopher View Post

This topic is probably making a ton of members (like myself) panic about their center channels.... I really can't afford to keep reading this board and haviong to buy something new

Center Channel Discussion is old and long. This isnt anything new is it?

btw, I use a phatom Center in my HT room for over a year now and Im happy being imprefect

Most people have vertically aligned MT in their Center speakers anyways so this just another "Mountain out of a Mole Hill" type discussions.

It is not "open-minded" to reject knowledge - Bob Lee
penngray is offline  
post #17755 of 72375 Old 08-24-2009, 07:28 AM
Wireless member
 
pepar's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: Quintana Roo ... in my mind
Posts: 25,027
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 98 Post(s)
Liked: 155
Quote:
Originally Posted by penngray View Post

Im not sure it does anything below 20Hz.

I think it does. Here's one person's results that seems to have correction well below 20Hz.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
- it's never done!


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.



To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
pepar is online now  
post #17756 of 72375 Old 08-24-2009, 07:50 AM
AVS Special Member
 
audyssey's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: Los Angeles
Posts: 4,150
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by JimP View Post

I understand that one of the benefits of the AE1 is that the FIR filters it employs doesn't cause distortions at high Q levels over traditional equalizers.

My question is how high is high? At what Q level does this advantage of the FIR filters becomes relevant?

Hi Jim,
That's almost impossible to answer because it depends on so many factors: they type of IIR filter, what other things are happening around that particular band, and the type of content (transients vs steady steady state). The same is true for FIR filters. There are several considerations that are application dependent (length, linear vs minimum phase, etc.). There is a good tutorial on filters here, although it's not audio DSP specific.

Chris

Join me for Audyssey Tech Talk on Facebook
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
.
Follow me @ChrisAudyssey on Twitter
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
.
audyssey is offline  
post #17757 of 72375 Old 08-24-2009, 07:53 AM
AVS Special Member
 
JHAz's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Posts: 3,940
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 88 Post(s)
Liked: 154
Well, after working on my fence for about half the day Sunday, I finally got around to bringing my Event 20/20s up from my mothballed recording system and stepped in the the 20th century (I know I'm a bit behind) by adding surround speakers. The blend, post-Audyssey, with the Maggies seems pretty good. Placement is less than ideal, but even my wife very much liked the results.

I experienced a difference in the bass and wanted to see if it is a real psychoacoustic difference, or just a change related to a minor change of sub posiition. I have felt that the bass was "too hot" especially in movies either at reference or at lower levels with Dynamic EQ on (fairly easy to compensate, but I did have to compensate a bit). That problem seems to have evaporated. It is possible, of course, that moving the sub about a foot and a half along the front wall (it is not and was not in a corner) or just differences in the Audyssey runs could explain this.

But it seemed to me that maybe what had previously sounded like too much bass, or bass overhang, suddenly was correlated with things going on in the surrounds in a way that made it sound right. So my working hypothesis is there is something about collapsing the surround information into the front speakers that changes our perception of the balance of the sounds. Wondering exactly how far off base I am, if anybody knows.
JHAz is offline  
post #17758 of 72375 Old 08-24-2009, 08:25 AM
AVS Special Member
 
LarryChanin's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 1999
Location: Sarasota, Florida
Posts: 6,810
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by penngray View Post

That happens with 2-ch music all the time and most people do not care.

Our brains are incredible at filling in those dips in the combing effect.

Hi,

So, if that's the case then the comb filtering that is brought on by drivers horizontally spaced in a toppled-MTM center channel speaker would have its dips filled in as well. Right?

Here's an other excerpt from Dr. Floyd Toole on the subject of stereo:

Quote:


9.1.3 An Important One-toothed Comb--A Fundamental Flaw in Stereo

On the matter of the sound quality of the center phantom image in stereo, I recommend a simple experiment: Arrange for monophonic pink noise to be delivered to both loudspeakers. When seated in the symmetrical sweet spot, this should create a well-defined center image midway between the loudspeakers. If it does not, something is seriously wrong. If it does, consider what you hear as you lean very slightly to the left and to the right of the symmetrical axis. The timbre of the noise changes and more obviously the closer you sit to the loudspeakers. In fact, it is possible to find the exact sweet spot by simply listening to when the sound is dullest. Moving even slightly left or right of the sweet spot causes the sound to get audibly brighter; there is more treble. It is much more exact to find the sweet spot by listening to the timbre change than by trying to judge when the center image is precisely localized in the center position. There is nothing faulty with the equipment or setup; this is simply stereo as it is-- flawed.

Larry



To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
LarryChanin is offline  
post #17759 of 72375 Old 08-24-2009, 08:55 AM
Member
 
clipari's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Posts: 17
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
So, I just did auto-setup, and then changed some crossovers (higher)... and, when audessey shows on my denon 889, the box is no longer surrounding the words. When I looked in my manual, it said that the box would not be there if I didn't measure more speakers. I don't get it. How do I get the box around "audessey" again? Do I need it? Does it really matter??
clipari is offline  
post #17760 of 72375 Old 08-24-2009, 09:05 AM
AVS Special Member
 
SoundofMind's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: SE MI
Posts: 7,962
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Liked: 160
Quote:
Originally Posted by clipari View Post

So, I just did auto-setup, and then changed some crossovers (higher)... and, when audessey shows on my denon 889, the box is no longer surrounding the words. When I looked in my manual, it said that the box would not be there if I didn't measure more speakers. I don't get it. How do I get the box around "audessey" again? Do I need it? Does it really matter??

The box disappears when you make any change, to let you know what you already know-that you made a change in the autosetup settings. It is not a problem, I 'd bet 99% on this thread have lost their box! To get it back hit "restore" under autosetup.

Yes, I still like playing with Dalis.

SoundofMind is offline  
Reply Receivers, Amps, and Processors

Tags
Audyssey , Receivers Amplifiers , Kef Kht1005 2se 5 1 Subwoofer Satellite System With C4 Subwoofer Gloss White , 5 6 7 1 7 2 Or 8 1 8 2 One Or Two Subwoofer Compatible 16 Banana Post 2 Rca Speaker Wall Plate For H
Gear in this thread - Kht1005 by PriceGrabber.com

Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page


Forum Jump: 

Posting Rules  
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off