"Official" Audyssey thread (FAQ in post #51779) - Page 595 - AVS Forum
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post #17821 of 73122 Old 08-26-2009, 09:41 AM
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Integrating 2 non-matching, non-collocted subs
First some background stats:

Subs 1: Epik dynasty
Sub 2: 2 x 6'cu elemental designs 19ov.02's in an up/down firing arraingment, each in its own sealed 6' cu (only outside of the boxes connected, not internal)

Placement 1: "bass corner" - point in room approx 14' diagnal from seating position in far cove - strongest response in room as approximated by ear.
Placement 2: rear of same side wall as the main placement - 10-12' dignal from seating - second strongest bass response in room

Audyssey multieq XT already available, considering adding as-eq1 OR antimode 8033

Would you place the sealed sub in the spot with strongest room gain to level the abilities of the subs or would that be a waste of possible headroom for the dynasty?

Will the relative similarity in distance from the seating position allow multieq xt to handle the phase/time correction without other help?
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post #17822 of 73122 Old 08-26-2009, 10:01 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kal Rubinson View Post

That's what a "tone control" is good for. I have EQ-ed with AudysseyPro for a flat response and, sometimes, rarely, I tilt the treble control a bit for movies. A little tedious but effective.

What I don't like about audyssey flat is that in my system audyssey (pro) is boosting somewhat the very top part of the curve. I wish that there would have been an option to leave the very top end curve unchanged, the way the speaker designer intended it,
can it be tweaked to, what I would call, 'relative flat' as opposed to absolute flat?

.. Maybe I am I mixing things up...
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post #17823 of 73122 Old 08-26-2009, 10:06 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LarryChanin View Post

Hi Tim,

Based on previous discussions on the subject, it may be beneficial to use a flat target curve, with THX Re-EQ turned off,

Hi Larry,

I was going to mention that workaround, but Tim mentioned 2.1 listening and engaging a THX mode in order to defeat Re-EQ might not be what he wants to do. His other choices are to take Kal's tone control advice or to purchase a Pro Installer Kit.

Jeff
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post #17824 of 73122 Old 08-26-2009, 10:13 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by orologio View Post

What I don't like about audyssey flat is that in my system audyssey (pro) is boosting somewhat the very top part of the curve. I wish that there would have been an option to leave the very top end curve unchanged, the way the speaker designer intended it,
can it be tweaked to, what I would call, 'relative flat' as opposed to absolute flat?

.. Maybe I am I mixing things up...

Using 3.0 (3.1) software? Customize the curve to your liking!
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post #17825 of 73122 Old 08-26-2009, 10:15 AM
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Originally Posted by audyssey View Post

On *some* music content Flat is better, but since there is no standard in music mixing we don't really know. The roll off is still beneficial for some music mixes.



I typed that in a hurry and didn't take the time to search for a less unflattering word than "dull."
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post #17826 of 73122 Old 08-26-2009, 10:19 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pepar View Post

Hi Larry,

I was going to mention that workaround, but Tim mentioned 2.1 listening and engaging a THX mode in order to defeat Re-EQ might not be what he wants to do. His other choices are to take Kal's tone control advice or to purchase a Pro Installer Kit.

Jeff

Hi Jeff,

Possibly, but Tim mentioned that he had a home theater and had installed some acoustic treatments so who knows flat may work for him if he has a large room. It certainly doesn't cost him anything to give it a try. Before Kal's remark Tim had already mentioned attempting the tone control.

Larry
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post #17827 of 73122 Old 08-26-2009, 10:37 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TimoHT View Post

Since neither you nor others came back with an immediate "this is the problem" response, it does not appear than I have a "common" issue.

Those are your words.

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Originally Posted by TimoHT View Post

... slow down... I've been working to improve the audio in my system(s) for about 45 years. A bit over a year ago I added the Integra 9.8 w/Audyssey. I then added some sound treatments to my current room (and reran Audyssey). Every step has been an improvement. I am aware of the positives that Audyssey adds and documented them in my original post on this issue - including saying that the benefits of Audyssey outweighed the issue that I perceive. But, as I continue to look for improvements I posted my observation about loss of definition... Per a prior post, in response to Chris, I am going to do some additional 2.1 and multi-channel critical listening in an attempt to futher refine my observation(s).

but.... I did not simply claim that I "have a problem" after giving my system a casual listen...

--- Tim

I was merely trying to provide a possible explanation of what you were hearing. You and several others said you should do more listening. I agree. No need to get all defensive about things.
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post #17828 of 73122 Old 08-26-2009, 10:49 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pepar View Post

Using 3.0 (3.1) software? Customize the curve to your liking!

Tried it. It's not that simple. As I said I would have preferred to have the top end unchanged as an option.

Ps: I re-read the manual for the pro version, and just realized that in a room like mine, 4000cf, I should use curve n.2. I am really puzzled now.
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post #17829 of 73122 Old 08-26-2009, 11:21 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kal Rubinson View Post

Good thing that you have Audyssey (a presumption in the context of this thread) because that "hulking CRT based RPTV" would be destructive of center imaging for stereo and phantom center.

"Something's gotta give." It should be that box.

LOL ... some day when the CC gets paid off, I'll go to FP video and try three identical speakers at identical height across the front

Until then, I'll stick to the 20 year old refurb'ed L100T's (which are hulking in their own right) + Audyssey. Path of least $$$$.
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post #17830 of 73122 Old 08-26-2009, 12:06 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by orologio View Post

What I don't like about audyssey flat is that in my system audyssey (pro) is boosting somewhat the very top part of the curve. I wish that there would have been an option to leave the very top end curve unchanged, the way the speaker designer intended it,
can it be tweaked to, what I would call, 'relative flat' as opposed to absolute flat?

.. Maybe I am I mixing things up...

There is no flat option on AudysseyPro if you are using the Integra (as I am), only the options offered by the Integra. However, AudysseyPro allows you to modify any of these target curves to your own needs and tastes. So, yes, it can be tweaked to, what I would call, 'relative flat' as opposed to absolute flat.

Kal Rubinson

"Music in the Round"
Senior Contributing Editor, Stereophile
http://www.stereophile.com/category/music-round

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post #17831 of 73122 Old 08-26-2009, 12:10 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by orologio View Post

Tried it. It's not that simple.

It's not? It took me about 30 seconds to modify the Integra/Audyssey curve to flat out to 20kHz.

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As I said I would have preferred to have the top end unchanged as an option.

Me, too. I am lazy and impatient.

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post #17832 of 73122 Old 08-26-2009, 12:40 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kal Rubinson View Post

That's what a "tone control" is good for.

true, but note that on many products with Dynamic EQ (e.g. all current Denons) the tone controls are disabled when you are using Dynamic EQ. Not an issue on your setup but it's simply not an available option for many users....

Of course, you could always switch off Dynamic EQ and then adjust tone manually, but it somewhat defeats the point....

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post #17833 of 73122 Old 08-26-2009, 12:48 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kal Rubinson View Post

There is no flat option on AudysseyPro if you are using the Integra (as I am), only the options offered by the Integra. However, AudysseyPro allows you to modify any of these target curves to your own needs and tastes. So, yes, it can be tweaked to, what I would call, 'relative flat' as opposed to absolute flat.

Yes it is true on my denon AVP. But Let me explain more appropriately what's in my mind:
if I alter Audyssey curve, consequentially also Audyssey flat will be altered.
Now, if I choose to use alternated (to whatever degree) Audyssey for movies, i will not be able to use Audyssey flat for music because it will not be flat anymore. that's how i see it in the charts and i would have liked if any alteration to audyssey would have not impacted the Flat curve. that would have given me more options.

Again, I am very happy with audyssey, this is not a complain but a request for a future update, if it is ever possible.
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post #17834 of 73122 Old 08-26-2009, 12:50 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by batpig View Post

true, but note that on many products with Dynamic EQ (e.g. all current Denons) the tone controls are disabled when you are using Dynamic EQ. Not an issue on your setup but it's simply not an available option for many users....

Of course, you could always switch off Dynamic EQ and then adjust tone manually, but it somewhat defeats the point....

Duly noted. Not an issue for me even if/when I have DynamicEQ as an option.

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post #17835 of 73122 Old 08-26-2009, 12:52 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by orologio View Post

Yes it is true on my denon AVP. But Let me explain more appropriately what's in my mind:
if I alter Audyssey curve, consequentially also Audyssey flat will be altered.
Now, if I choose to use alternated (to whatever degree) Audyssey for movies, i will not be able to use Audyssey flat for music because it will not be flat anymore. that's how i see it in the charts and i would have liked if any alteration to audyssey would have not impacted the Flat curve. that would have given me more options.

Again, I am very happy with audyssey, this is not a complain but a request for a future update, if it is ever possible.

AFAIK, the only device which, at present, can maintain multiple Audyssey corrections for quick switching is the Wisdom controller. I guess you have to choose.

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post #17836 of 73122 Old 08-26-2009, 12:55 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kal Rubinson View Post

AFAIK, the only device which, at present, can maintain multiple Audyssey corrections for quick switching is the Wisdom controller. I guess you have to choose.

Or orologio could create two different curves and load whichever was needed for the use at hand.
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post #17837 of 73122 Old 08-26-2009, 12:56 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kal Rubinson View Post

AFAIK, the only device which, at present, can maintain multiple Audyssey corrections for quick switching is the Wisdom controller. I guess you have to choose.

Fair enough. Thanks
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post #17838 of 73122 Old 08-26-2009, 01:18 PM
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Originally Posted by pepar View Post

Or orologio could create two different curves and load whichever was needed for the use at hand.

While this can physically be done it is a somewhat involved process unfortunately. Unless a person has a computer always on and basically dedicated to loading the different curves (ie hooked up too) it takes a good 5-10 minutes to achieve this. Also factor into the equation that you need to re-generate your license key every 30 days.

I wish it was easier.

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post #17839 of 73122 Old 08-26-2009, 01:22 PM
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Originally Posted by fsrenduro View Post

While this can physically be done it is a somewhat involved process unfortunately. Unless a person has a computer always on and basically dedicated to loading the different curves (ie hooked up too) it takes a good 5-10 minutes to achieve this. Also factor into the equation that you need to re-generate your license key every 30 days.

Owww, I did not know that.
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post #17840 of 73122 Old 08-26-2009, 01:42 PM
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Originally Posted by fsrenduro View Post

While this can physically be done it is a somewhat involved process unfortunately. Unless a person has a computer always on and basically dedicated to loading the different curves (ie hooked up too) it takes a good 5-10 minutes to achieve this. Also factor into the equation that you need to re-generate your license key every 30 days.

I wish it was easier.

agreed!
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post #17841 of 73122 Old 08-26-2009, 02:01 PM
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Hi, first post here.

Got myself a Denon 1909 with Audyssey. Gone through the setup and followed all instructions carefully on Batpigs site. Everything sounds really great with HD Audio and Dolby Digital 5.1 soundtracks on DVD sound's good too. Now my issue.. The Dolby Digital 5.1 soundtracks from my satellite decoder are very unbalanced. The rears are far too loud while the center channel is far too soft. Its really difficult to hear dialogue when there are lots of surround effects. I need to listen to more DD 5.1 tracks on DVD's but the one I have listened too was much better than anything playing off the satellite box. Chuck, CSI etc are very bad. I actually had too turn the rears down by 3 dB and the center up by 3 dB. Is this bad mixing on these series or is it my sat provider or me? Sat decoder is connected to Denon via HDMI.

Thanks
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post #17842 of 73122 Old 08-26-2009, 02:23 PM
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if all your other sources sound just fine then it's a problem with the cable box or the signal itself, e.g. a bad mix from the broadcast. does it happen on all channels or only specific shows/channels?

unfortunately, channel level changes are global for that surround mode so when you bump the center/surrounds for TV you are then messing it up for your other "good" sources like DD on a DVD.

have you tried turning Dynamic EQ off with TV watching when you encounter one of those badly mixed programs? that may help, as Dyn. EQ could be enhancing the flaws of a bad mix.

Out of curiosity, what cable box do you have? There is a very similar discussion of the exact same problem on the 2809/989 owners' thread with a Dish Network DVR (ViP622) (first post of the discussion linked): http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...0#post17065890

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followed all instructions carefully on Batpigs site

just as an FYI to be clear, since we're on the "Audyssey" thread -- while of course I did create "batpigworld", I can take ZERO credit for the Audyssey Setup Guide.

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post #17843 of 73122 Old 08-26-2009, 02:25 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kevbo123 View Post

Hi, first post here.

Got myself a Denon 1909 with Audyssey. Gone through the setup and followed all instructions carefully on Batpigs site. Everything sounds really great with HD Audio and Dolby Digital 5.1 soundtracks on DVD sound's good too. Now my issue.. The Dolby Digital 5.1 soundtracks from my satellite decoder are very unbalanced. The rears are far too loud while the center channel is far too soft. Its really difficult to hear dialogue when there are lots of surround effects. I need to listen to more DD 5.1 tracks on DVD's but the one I have listened too was much better than anything playing off the satellite box. Chuck, CSI etc are very bad. I actually had too turn the rears down by 3 dB and the center up by 3 dB. Is this bad mixing on these series or is it my sat provider or me? Sat decoder is connected to Denon via HDMI.

Thanks

I have had something similar with cable and broadcast DD feeds, but only when they are in (or switch to, like for a commercial) DD 2.0 mode and the receiver switches to PLII mode. Sometimes the music coming from the surrounds during a commercial will knock you out of your seat. Once it goes back to the regular program and DD5.1 mode, all is good again. I do not believe this to be an Audyssey issue at all, however.

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post #17844 of 73122 Old 08-26-2009, 02:32 PM
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Thanks Batpig

Actually bumping up the center channel and lowering the rears on the DD soundtrack on the TV source does not affect the settings when listening to a DD track on the DVD source. So I can keep the settings separate. I need to do some more tests with different DVD's and satellite channels. Seems that most shows I watch on our one and only HD channel have that unbalanced sound issue.
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post #17845 of 73122 Old 08-26-2009, 02:35 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jcalabria View Post

I have had something similar with cable and broadcast DD feeds, but only when they are in (or switch to, like for a commercial) DD 2.0 mode and the receiver switches to PLII mode. Sometimes the music coming from the surrounds during a commercial will knock you out of your seat. Once it goes back to the regular program and DD5.1 mode, all is good again. I do not believe this to be an Audyssey issue at all, however.

Now that you mention it, I have that happen every now and then on my non-Audyssey AVR. I assume that it is either the cable company's machinations altering the DD signal or it is by the design of the show's producer. As it is said here all the time, only the film industry has standards.
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post #17846 of 73122 Old 08-26-2009, 02:50 PM
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A (somewhat cursory, admittedly) search revealed to me that nobody in the last 17,800-something posts seems to have asked about setting up MultEQ XT in a nearfield system, so I will because (as with some surround speakers) there may be some special issues to which one should pay attention.

In my particular system, which I suppose is a bit eccentric but probably still reasonable enough to generate advice on common principles for Audyssey calibration of nearfield systems, the front three speakers are Tannoy System 8 NFM II's (8" Dual Concentric driver), and the side-surrounds are the little Tannoy Arena eggs (~4.5" Dual Concentric driver). Underneath the mains are a 17" iMac and a 24" LCD. The center of the front Dual Concentrics are 50" off the ground, and toed-in such that their axes cross at the edge of the desk, slightly ahead of my nose. They are each 52" from my normal listening position, measured from the center of each Dual Concentric to the back-middle of my task chair. The surrounds are closer to the listening position (~40" away) and only about 30" off the ground, but angled up to cross about a foot from the ceiling. (I'm open to consider experimenting with other firing angles for both, so long as the fronts stay high enough to peak over my iMac and second monitor. Taller stands for the surrounds would just look funny, alas, and I can't put them on the ceiling because of my ceiling fan.) The subwoofer, a DIY job with an Exodus Maelstrom-X powered by a Crown XTi2000, is under the desk, maybe 24" from my right shin. (The desk is vintage George Nelson Action Desk made by Herman Miller, and doesn't rattle at all.)

I'll be running a slightly older version of MultEQ XT, the version on the Denon AVR-4306 that was recently displaced in my home system by a 4308ci/A. The 4306 takes IIRC six (rather than 8) measurements and uses the old "saucer" mic.

OK, setup over.

Given the close distance and the height of the speakers, should I angle the mic back such that it is normal to the front speaker firing axis, or angle it straight up?

Also, my task chair (a Teknion Contessa) has a perimeter frame with tensioned mesh (like the Herman Miller Aeron) and a headrest. I'm worried the mesh and by diffraction from the seat frame will mess things up for the measurement. Should I put some pillows on it to simulate a body, and/or unbolt the headrest for measurements? Or just raise my mic tripod to ear-height and move the chair away?

Lastly, for a nearfield setup how many different measurements should I take? I have two meaningful "seating positions:" sitting straight up and leaning back.

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post #17847 of 73122 Old 08-26-2009, 03:26 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DS-21 View Post


Given the close distance and the height of the speakers, should I angle the mic back such that it is normal to the front speaker firing axis, or angle it straight up?

The mics are intended to measure at a grazing incidence. There is a tolerance, but I don't know what it is. But when mics have been pointed too much *at* the speakers, the corrected results have been "rolled off" more than they should be.

Chris has addressed Audyssey in "nearfield" situations on this thread.
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post #17848 of 73122 Old 08-26-2009, 03:36 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pepar View Post

The mics are intended to measure at a grazing incidence. There is a tolerance, but I don't know what it is. But when mics have been pointed too much *at* the speakers, the corrected results have been "rolled off" more than they should be.

So you're falling on the side of "angle the mic back such that it (meaning, the element) is normal to the front speaker firing axis," I take it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by pepar View Post

Chris has addressed Audyssey in "nearfield" situations on this thread.

Would you be so kind as to point out the posts? I couldn't find anything especially relevant in a search for "nearfield" on this thread, but there's certainly no need to waste Chris's time duplicating what he's already said.

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post #17849 of 73122 Old 08-26-2009, 03:53 PM
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Originally Posted by DS-21 View Post

So you're falling on the side of "angle the mic back such that it (meaning, the element) is normal to the front speaker firing axis," I take it.



Would you be so kind as to point out the posts? I couldn't find anything especially relevant in a search for "nearfield" on this thread, but there's certainly no need to waste Chris's time duplicating what he's already said.

This may not help but if you download the thread and search it "nearfield" comes up a fair amount.
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post #17850 of 73122 Old 08-26-2009, 04:56 PM
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Originally Posted by kevbo123 View Post

Actually bumping up the center channel and lowering the rears on the DD soundtrack on the TV source does not affect the settings when listening to a DD track on the DVD source. So I can keep the settings separate.



What are you saying? I don't know of any AVR that allows you to change the channel balance controls when playing one source and not affect the channel balance for every other source.
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