"Official" Audyssey thread (FAQ in post #51779) - Page 691 - AVS Forum
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post #20701 of 72388 Old 11-19-2009, 01:15 PM
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Paraphrasing Kal, in a perfect world, implementation of any given target curve, i.e. the red line, will result in a system response that mimics it exactly. Or am I missing what you are asking?


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post #20702 of 72388 Old 11-19-2009, 01:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pepar View Post

Paraphrasing Kal, in a perfect world, implementation of any given target curve, i.e. the red line, will result in a system response that mimics it exactly.

Sure.

Quote:
Or am I missing what you are asking?

I think so.

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post #20703 of 72388 Old 11-19-2009, 01:27 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by audyssey View Post

Hi Larry,

Any modifications you make with the blue adjustment points will be applied to all red curves.

Hi Chris,

Please forgive me bringing this up again, but I felt compelled to go back to the source of my confusion quoted below.

Quote:
Originally Posted by orologio View Post

My bug is that when I modify the audyssey curve to my preference, like raising the top end a little, the flat curve is also correspondingly modified by raising the same top end making it way too bright and unuseble.

Here orologio states he has a problem with the flat curve being rendered unusable by modifying a selected curve.

Your response to him didn't correct orologic's statement as being incorrect, but rather seemed to reinforce his concern.

Your response was:

Quote:
Originally Posted by audyssey View Post

Hi, unfortunately it's not possible to save two curves with different tweaks for each one. The tweaks in MultEQ Pro are applied to all curves.

Can someone modify a reference curve and then select a THX listening mode on an Onkyo device and be confident that the Flat target curve is still flat after editing a reference curve?

Thanks.

Larry



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post #20704 of 72388 Old 11-19-2009, 02:14 PM
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I have an Integra 9.8 prepro that features MultEQXT correction, but does not allow me to select the response curve (I would prefer "FLAT" for music). Can anyone suggest a listening mode (for 2 channel sources) that would use the Audyssey room correction settings, but won't feature the high frequency rolloff present in the default audyssey curve? On receivers/prepros like this is there a way to optimize music listening while enjoying the benefits of room correction?


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post #20705 of 72388 Old 11-19-2009, 02:33 PM
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Chris,
I'm wondering if there's anything in future "Pro" plans to facilitate a sub 300hz only EQ option per speaker group, maybe a curve editor feature? (Sort of like Denon's L/R Bypass option but a L/R +300hz bypass.)
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post #20706 of 72388 Old 11-19-2009, 03:26 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jchong View Post

I'm having some issues with my Audyssey mic (that came with the Onkyo 876). I've run Audyssey many times over the last few months (usually when I tweak or change something) and it's run flawlessly.

Today I ran it again, did the first pass and 2nd pass fine (going through all 5.1 positions in each pass). When it came to the 3rd pass, it gave me a "speaker detect error" after testing the FL speaker. Retried and same error.

So I unplugged the mic, then plugged it back in and reran Audyssey. Did first pass fine, but in the 2nd pass it gave me a "speaker detect error" after testing the FL speaker. Retried and same error. After this, I unplugged and replugged the mic and in the first pass the "speaker detect error" came in. Retries from then was a no go and I just keep getting the "speaker detect error".

So I then took the Audyssey mic from the AS-EQ1 (which looks identical to the Audyssey mic from the Onkyo 876) and tried that. It worked fine and I did a quick 3 position run and saved the settings. Just as an experiment, I tried again with my original Audyssey mic and got the "speaker detect error" - so obviously something is wrong with my original Audyssey mic from the Onkyo 876.

Questions:

1. Anybody else had their AVR's Audyssey mic die on them?
2. Is the AS-EQ1 Audyssey mic identical to the Onkyo 876 Audyssey mic? I noticed the Audyssey settings are different with the AS-EQ1 Audyssey mic, e.g. level trims are 2.5 dB lower. Speaker config is also different, now the LCR and surrounds are 'full band' previously it was 60 Hz.

Answers:

1. Yes, my mic once died and I determined that there was a discontinuity in the wire. Therefore, I changed the wire and the problem was solved. Of course, you will need a tester and then a soldering gun.

2. According to Chris K., if the AVR mic is the newer model (tower type as opposed to the older puck type), it's the same as the AS-EQ1 mic. Therefore, they are interchangeable. Keep in mind that these mics have a plus/minus 2db tolerance so you will get variations between mics.

Mark

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post #20707 of 72388 Old 11-19-2009, 03:53 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by uzun View Post

I have an Integra 9.8 prepro that features MultEQXT correction, but does not allow me to select the response curve (I would prefer "FLAT" for music). Can anyone suggest a listening mode (for 2 channel sources) that would use the Audyssey room correction settings, but won't feature the high frequency rolloff present in the default audyssey curve? On receivers/prepros like this is there a way to optimize music listening while enjoying the benefits of room correction?

THX Music or play with the treble control.

Resident Curmudgeon


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post #20708 of 72388 Old 11-19-2009, 04:54 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kal Rubinson View Post

We are not starting with a blank page but with one of the default/standard curves. Let's say that this curve is flat up to 5KHz as in Pepar's example and rolls off to be -5dB at 20KHz. If unmodified and the world is perfect, implementation of this will result in a system response that mimics it exactly.

If I make a handle (blue point) at 20KHz and move it to +3dB, I get a new curve which is flat to 5KHz and up at +3dB at 20KHz. Right?

No. The red curve will move up by 3 dB from its original -5dB point, for a result of -2 dB. It will be seen in the altered red curve, so what you see in the red curve is what you will get.

Quote:


Or is it, counterintuitively, -2dB at 20KHz because the blue curve is applied to the red curve and the result is the combination of their effects?

These are very different outcomes and, to me, the former is more useful and more predictable (I see what I get). I apologize for being so pedantic but the messages traded so far have been less than completely transparent to me.

I don't see it as counterintuitive in that the red curve does in fact display the WYSIWYG EQ curve. And, If you click thru the other preset curve options, HF Rolloff1, HF Rolloff2, or SMPTE202, each of their red curves will reflect the same delta offsets defined by your blue line. The differences each option provides will thus be fully maintained, even though you defined a modification curve.

Roger

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post #20709 of 72388 Old 11-19-2009, 06:21 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Roger Dressler View Post

No. The red curve will move up by 3 dB from its original -5dB point, for a result of -2 dB. It will be seen in the altered red curve, so what you see in the red curve is what you will get.

I don't see it as counterintuitive in that the red curve does in fact display the WYSIWYG EQ curve. And, If you click thru the other preset curve options, HF Rolloff1, HF Rolloff2, or SMPTE202, each of their red curves will reflect the same delta offsets defined by your blue line. The differences each option provides will thus be fully maintained, even though you defined a modification curve.

Well, I will have to take another look as that is what I remembered was the way it worked. I haven't done an EQ in a month or so but will do one this weekend.

Somehow, the verbal descriptions offered in this thread confused me. Sorry to have made a big deal of it.

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post #20710 of 72388 Old 11-19-2009, 06:42 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rnrgagne View Post

Chris,
I'm wondering if there's anything in future "Pro" plans to facilitate a sub 300hz only EQ option per speaker group, maybe a curve editor feature? (Sort of like Denon's L/R Bypass option but a L/R +300hz bypass.)

Nope. I am aware of the evangelism on this subject, but our own research and that of BBC researchers in the 1960s shows that full range correction is needed. We are trying to convince Denon to remove the L/R Bypass option, but have not yet succeeded...

Chris

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post #20711 of 72388 Old 11-19-2009, 06:52 PM
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Hi Larry,

Quote:
Originally Posted by LarryChanin View Post

Can someone modify a reference curve and then select a THX listening mode on an Onkyo device and be confident that the Flat target curve is still flat after editing a reference curve?

The answer is no. Any mods you make will be applied to the Reference and Flat curves.

Chris

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post #20712 of 72388 Old 11-19-2009, 07:32 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kal Rubinson View Post

Well, I will have to take another look as that is what I remembered was the way it worked. I haven't done an EQ in a month or so but will do one this weekend.

Somehow, the verbal descriptions offered in this thread confused me. Sorry to have made a big deal of it.

My replies are based only on what Chris posted. I have not had the pleasure of first-hand experience with Audyssey Pro. If I got it wrong, I hope will Chris will smack some sense into me.

Roger

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post #20713 of 72388 Old 11-19-2009, 08:02 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Roger Dressler View Post

My replies are based only on what Chris posted. I have not had the pleasure of first-hand experience with Audyssey Pro. If I got it wrong, I hope will Chris will smack some sense into me.

It's all in the wording. For some reason, yours gave me more clarity than did Chris'. In any case, I will be doing a setup this weekend (new speakers) and the results will tell me what I want.

Kal Rubinson

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post #20714 of 72388 Old 11-19-2009, 11:58 PM
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Hiya guys
This is off topic but I am asking you guys cause of the massive experience in this thread, and you guys answer way faster than any other forums or groups I am in. I have just received an australian pay tv set top box its Hi defention with an HDMI out it has 140 odd channels about 20 of them are HD channels movies,sport etc and the rest are standard def. If I leave my source upscale to 1080p to cover the standard def upscaling of most of the channels will this double process when I watch a HD Channel. Actually thinking out loud the Hd channels may only be 720p but I did watch one movie Hd channel and to be honest it was blu ray quality. With my current upscale settings. Once again sorry for going off topic but you guys are great and am interested in your feedback from experiences with pay tv in your countries. I can go source through or upscale to 1080p. Thanks guys I appreciate it.
Justin from Aus

Cheers!
Justin
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post #20715 of 72388 Old 11-20-2009, 03:44 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by streetsmart88 View Post

Answers:

1. Yes, my mic once died and I determined that there was a discontinuity in the wire. Therefore, I changed the wire and the problem was solved. Of course, you will need a tester and then a soldering gun.

2. According to Chris K., if the AVR mic is the newer model (tower type as opposed to the older puck type), it's the same as the AS-EQ1 mic. Therefore, they are interchangeable. Keep in mind that these mics have a plus/minus 2db tolerance so you will get variations between mics.

Mark

Thanks for the reply Mark.

1. I'm sending my mic back to the Onkyo distributor for a replacement.

2. Yes mine is the newer tower type Audyssey mic. It looks exactly the same as the AS-EQ1 mic. Glad to know they are interchangeable. Yeah, I recall reading about the +/- 2 dB tolerance. That would explain the trim difference, but I wonder why with the AS-EQ1 mic my AVR sets my speakers to 'full band'?
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post #20716 of 72388 Old 11-20-2009, 04:54 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Invictus 14 View Post

This is off topic...

Why no, Audyssey is all about improving PQ.

Justin, this is not a simple question. It is a video signal chain issue and depends on many factors we shouldn't get into here. These include the specifics of the cable box output modes, the capabilities of your display, whether your video is going through the AVR, and the video settings in each component. If your display or AVR has a forum, that would be a good place to start. For ex., these are common topics on the Denon and Onkyo AVR threads.

Yes, I still like playing with Dalis.

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post #20717 of 72388 Old 11-20-2009, 05:53 AM
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Quick question...I use a tx-sr875 with Audyssey built in. I use it and I love it. The Onkyo is a THX receiver, and I use MK Sound THX speakers and an SVS sub.

I do not use THX modes for movies as I prefer the audyssey curve over the THX re-eq. When I run Audyssey it sets my crossovers on some speakers to 150 hz. Since I am running THX speakers my understanding is I should reset the crossovers down to 80hz.

I understand that audyssey only corrects down to the crossover freq it found was optimal. Since it is not finding 80hz as the sweet spot on some of my speakers am I losing out on some of the audyssey correction?
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post #20718 of 72388 Old 11-20-2009, 06:33 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Oledurt View Post

Quick question...I use a tx-sr875 with Audyssey built in. I use it and I love it. The Onkyo is a THX receiver, and I use MK Sound THX speakers and an SVS sub. I do not use THX modes for movies as I prefer the audyssey curve over the THX re-eq. When I run Audyssey it sets my crossovers on some speakers to 150 hz. Since I am running THX speakers my understanding is I should reset the crossovers down to 80hz.
I understand that audyssey only corrects down to the crossover freq it found was optimal. Since it is not finding 80hz as the sweet spot on some of my speakers am I losing out on some of the audyssey correction?

Follow the Guide recommendations and listen with the autosetup recommended xover. Doesn't it sound great? Do not fret, you're missing nothing, the xover is selected based on the speaker's measured performance in the room, all freqs are corrected and all is as it should be. Now, if you reset from 120 to 80 you lose the corrections on that band and make your speaker and AVR work harder. But if that sounds better to you, do it. AFAIK the THX designation has no particular bearing on this matter.

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post #20719 of 72388 Old 11-20-2009, 07:55 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by audyssey View Post

The blue curve is not a target curve. It represents the adjustments that will be applied to the red target curve. The curve that will be applied to the filters is always the red curve. In the example above, a boost has been applied to the standard Audyssey HF rolloff 1 curve to bring it closer to flat.

Hi Chris,

Thanks for your previous response.

I realize that the purpose of the blue curve is to adjust the selected reference target curves, but since it starts out at flat, and all adjustments are applied to all curves including the Flat curve, then isn't it also correct that the blue curve is a good representation of the changes made to the Flat target curve?

Thanks again.

Larry



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post #20720 of 72388 Old 11-20-2009, 07:58 AM
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after reading the very well done Audyssey Guide, I have a couple questions regarding measuring on 2 tiers where the back tier is raised higher than the front tier.
1. is it preference to place the first position in the center of listening area(between the rows) or in the primary listening seat?

2. should the microphone height be averaged between the 2 heights or at actual ear level but raised for the second tier?

thank you very much in advance for any responses!!!
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post #20721 of 72388 Old 11-20-2009, 08:03 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LarryChanin View Post

I realize that the purpose of the blue curve is to adjust the selected reference target curves, but since it starts out at flat, and all adjustments are applied to all curves including the Flat curve, then isn't it also correct that the blue curve is a good representation of the changes made to the Flat target curve?

Hi Larry,
Yes, that's true.

Chris

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post #20722 of 72388 Old 11-20-2009, 08:03 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jchong View Post

Thanks for the reply Mark.

1. I'm sending my mic back to the Onkyo distributor for a replacement.

2. Yes mine is the newer tower type Audyssey mic. It looks exactly the same as the AS-EQ1 mic. Glad to know they are interchangeable. Yeah, I recall reading about the +/- 2 dB tolerance. That would explain the trim difference, but I wonder why with the AS-EQ1 mic my AVR sets my speakers to 'full band'?


Is it okay to use a different mic with a flatter frequency response to try to obtain better resolution or more consistent results such as the Earthworks M30, Audix TR40 or even the dbx RTA Analyzer Microphone? I've been tempted to try this but wanted a little input before proceeding.
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post #20723 of 72388 Old 11-20-2009, 08:06 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by errivera View Post

Is it okay to use a different mic with a flatter frequency response to try to obtain better resolution or more consistent results such as the Earthworks M30, Audix TR40 or even the dbx RTA Analyzer Microphone? I've been tempted to try this but wanted a little input before proceeding.

No. You will get much worse results if you do that. The calibration curve for the Audyssey mic is built in to the software and so it will be applied to any other mic that you connect. BTW, the mics that you mention are not flat on their own. They also require a correction curve in order to give you good measurements.

Chris

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post #20724 of 72388 Old 11-20-2009, 08:11 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Invictus 14 View Post

Hiya guys
This is off topic but I am asking you guys cause of the massive experience in this thread, and you guys answer way faster than any other forums or groups I am in. I have just received an australian pay tv set top box its Hi defention with an HDMI out it has 140 odd channels about 20 of them are HD channels movies,sport etc and the rest are standard def. If I leave my source upscale to 1080p to cover the standard def upscaling of most of the channels will this double process when I watch a HD Channel. Actually thinking out loud the Hd channels may only be 720p but I did watch one movie Hd channel and to be honest it was blu ray quality. With my current upscale settings. Once again sorry for going off topic but you guys are great and am interested in your feedback from experiences with pay tv in your countries. I can go source through or upscale to 1080p. Thanks guys I appreciate it.
Justin from Aus

You will want the best scaler in the video chain to do the upscaling/deinterlacing. Here in the US at least, that is almost never the TV box.


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post #20725 of 72388 Old 11-20-2009, 08:16 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SoundofMind View Post

Follow the Guide recommendations and listen with the autosetup recommended xover. Doesn't it sound great? Do not fret, you're missing nothing, the xover is selected based on the speaker's measured performance in the room, all freqs are corrected and all is as it should be. Now, if you reset from 120 to 80 you lose the corrections on that band and make your speaker and AVR work harder. But if that sounds better to you, do it. AFAIK the THX designation has no particular bearing on this matter.

Thanks so much for your reply. I recalibrated my system using Audyssey this time keeping all settings it came up with and it does indeed sound better. The tone of the speakers sounds a bit fuller and darker quite pleasing. I love my THX speakers and they do sound awesome and now they sound even better with the Audyssey room correction.

In my opinion THX is good at doing what it was designed to do set some high standards for equipment, crossovers etc...but the THX recomended settings etc seem to be the past Audyssey really is the future.
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post #20726 of 72388 Old 11-20-2009, 08:25 AM
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Originally Posted by sterryo View Post

after reading the very well done Audyssey Guide, I have a couple questions regarding measuring on 2 tiers where the back tier is raised higher than the front tier.
1. is it preference to place the first position in the center of listening area(between the rows) or in the primary listening seat?

2. should the microphone height be averaged between the 2 heights or at actual ear level but raised for the second tier?

thank you very much in advance for any responses!!!

You have an even number of seats? If so and there is a space on the centerline of the center channel, then yes I would make that space mic position #1. After that I would measure where the heads of people sitting in the seats would be. The qualifier is that the mic must "see" all of the speakers and positioned so that it will not get reflections off of the seat (back). For me, that last proviso is met in part because I have soft cloth seat covering ... as opposed to leather or faux leather.


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post #20727 of 72388 Old 11-20-2009, 08:34 AM
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Originally Posted by audyssey View Post

Nope. I am aware of the evangelism on this subject, but our own research and that of BBC researchers in the 1960s shows that full range correction is needed. We are trying to convince Denon to remove the L/R Bypass option, but have not yet succeeded...

Thanks for that Chris, my own practical experience is that Audyssey's greatest benefit is what it does in the bottom end. I've tried the L/R bypass with 2 channel material since I upgraded my mains to Paradigm S8v.3's and ended up going back to Audyssey. I didn't pick up on much if any difference in the top end but I prefer the Audyssey improved bottom end, which is what prompted my question.

I would think the "evangelists" must be a fair chunk of Denon's consumer base if they don't want to remove it...
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post #20728 of 72388 Old 11-20-2009, 08:37 AM
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Originally Posted by rnrgagne View Post

Thanks for that Chris, my own practical experience is that Audyssey's greatest benefit is what it does in the bottom end. I've tried the L/R bypass with 2 channel material since I upgraded my mains to Paradigm S8v.3's and ended up going back to Audyssey. I didn't pick up on much if any difference in the top end but I prefer the Audyssey improved bottom end, which is what prompted my question.

Sure. It's certainly true that the biggest problems in small rooms are in the lower end of the spectrum. And with really good speakers and proper amounts of room treatments, the higher frequencies can be dealt with so that there is less for MultEQ to do. It is designed to only correct where needed.

Chris

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post #20729 of 72388 Old 11-20-2009, 08:41 AM
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Originally Posted by pepar View Post

You have an even number of seats? If so and there is a space on the centerline of the center channel, then yes I would make that space mic position #1. After that I would measure where the heads of people sitting in the seats would be. The qualifier is that the mic must "see" all of the speakers and positioned so that it will not get reflections off of the seat (back). For me, that last proviso is met in part because I have soft cloth seat covering ... as opposed to leather or faux leather.

then keep the mic at same height and be sure to it is unobstructed?
thx
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post #20730 of 72388 Old 11-20-2009, 08:44 AM
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Originally Posted by sterryo View Post

then keep the mic at same height and be sure to it is unobstructed?
thx

yes.


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